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post #361 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 08:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
I get that you can tame the brightness, I was referring to the "film like" look that LCD/LCoS chips produce. The Sonys are particularly good at that. Regardless, I would say that if a casual projector buyer (i.e. not a discerning cinephile like people on these forums) were to look at those images they would pick that over even a $50K "Home Theater" projector, all the time, no doubt about it. Bright, razor sharp images win all the time, there is a reason retail stores turn on the brightness on TVs all the way up. I can think of so many people I know (including some rich people like Doctors) that built home theaters and have no interest in movies, just because they want one in their house. I think these DLP companies are missing out on so much potential sales. They need to buy space in specialty HT stores and I can guarantee the 90 percent who shop there will pick the DLP (assuming RBE is a non factor). It is just like speakers - most casual folks prefer the horn loaded ones like Klipsch, not a neutral sounding, low-sensitivity brand, because they are loud.

The LK’s images are FAR from what you see in a Best Buy showroom, I can tell you that! With HDR they’re so smooth and natural looking, yet so sharp and detailed at the same time.

Please do not sit and judge them and compare them based on a few crappy photos to any OOTB showroom fodder at Best Buy until you’ve actually had the pleasure of witnessing one properly, please.

I’ve been in this business 30+ years and think I know a good image from bad, and the LK970 is NOT just a cheap bright and sharp DLP projector that HT dolts will choose over a $50K “good one” because they’re too ignorant to know the difference, as you suggest. It isn’t a bad showroom floor demo image in the least!

Why don’t we keep these expert opinions out of here until we actually see one, huh?
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post #362 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 08:08 PM
 
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BenQ LK990

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Originally Posted by armyplace View Post
Whats the major differences between a BENQ LK970 vs the LK990?

I guess if i was to purchase the LK970, what I'm I missing out on besides the extra lumens as my fully light controlled HT room has only 120" screen. Wonder if getting a grey screen could help boost the black levels since we have lots of lumens to play with!

LK990 has the following over the LK970:

Native HDR Support (doubt its better than my custom settings on the LK970 though)

1,000 more spec’d lumens (may be meaningless after calibration)

3D support

SmartEco Dimming Mode (Different than Automatic Power Control in some way apparently)

Brilliant Color Feature

Everyone else please add whatever I missed.
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post #363 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
The LK’s images are FAR from what you see in a Best Buy showroom, I can tell you that! With HDR they’re so smooth and natural looking, yet so sharp and detailed at the same time.

Please do not sit and judge them and compare them based on a few crappy photos to any OOTB showroom fodder at Best Buy until you’ve actually had the pleasure of witnessing one properly, please.

I’ve been in this business 30+ years and think I know a good image from bad, and the LK970 is NOT just a cheap bright and sharp DLP projector that HT dolts will choose over a $50K “good one” because they’re too ignorant to know the difference, as you suggest. It isn’t a bad showroom floor demo image in the least!

Why don’t we keep these expert opinions out of here until we actually see one, huh?
You are correct, I have not personally seen it in action, just saw the posted pics (which btw are quite dazzling) so my thoughts are just that. Maybe it can offer best of both worlds, I have to see who a local dealer is in my area that has one to demo.
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post #364 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 08:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
You are correct, I have not personally seen it in action, just saw the posted pics (which btw are quite dazzling) so my thoughts are just that. Maybe it can offer best of both worlds, I have to see who a local dealer is in my area that has one to demo.

I doubt they’ll have one unless they’re a showing BenQ Professional Dealer as well.
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post #365 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 08:22 PM
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Kind of hard to say DLP doesn't look film-like when 99% of modern theaters project films using DLP.
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post #366 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
So was I.
So you are suggesting 50% of the film content in most films has such poor lighting in the scenes, projectors such as JVC have an advantage over an LK790 that some suggest performs extremely well with HDR. Other than some obvious science fiction movies and horror movies I cannot think of many movies where half of the content would place a projector that only has the advantage on on/off CR (assuming the LK790 can equal or surpass the JVC in the other areas) being preferable. If you have mixed light content in a scene, the projector with greater ANSI CR and better performing HDR will likely have the advantage in most cases. Since the assumption being provided is that many if not most films have mostly scenes that advantage the JVC (one would assume since otherwise people should be criticizing the JVC for failing to match or best the LK790 in most film content), I would like to see some objective data supporting the claim. Can anyone please provide actual data suggesting that 20-50% of the content on most films advantages a projector with excellent on/off CR as opposed to a superior projector from the perspective of HDR, ANSI CR, sharpness, lumens, etc. I am not trying to suggest this is not possible, I am saying that my experience from watching movies suggests that it is highly unlikely. But data supporting the claim is far superior evidence than my assumed expectation. In fact, if we could consider 10 major films where this is the case, I think that would at least give some credence to the unquestionable preference being suggested by some non-DLP posters. I have not seen Green Book, but one of the posters who was highly critical of the LK790 without ever seeing it (he dismissed the LK790 in another forum as nothing more than a business projector with a good lens) spoke highly of the film. What percentage of that film would likely give an advantage to the JVC vs what percentage of the film would give an advantage to the LK790?


Note: what I find most interesting is that the LK790 can be seen as superior in any meaningful way despite costing substantially less, but many of the non-DLP posters seem more concerned about how it "fails".
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post #367 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravi View Post
I get that you can tame the brightness, I was referring to the "film like" look that LCD/LCoS chips produce. The Sonys are particularly good at that. Regardless, I would say that if a casual projector buyer (i.e. not a discerning cinephile like people on these forums) were to look at those images they would pick that over even a $50K "Home Theater" projector, all the time, It is just like speakers - most casual folks prefer the horn loaded ones like Klipsch, not a neutral sounding, low-sensitivity brand, because they are loud.

As another poster already noted, this post is extremely condescending, not to mention presumptuous. The poster is obviously not aware that most cinemas use DLPs. The DLP look is regarded by many people to be the most pleasing, and it has nothing to do with being unexposed to expensive projectors, because the DLP projectors I am referring to cost in the 100s of thousands of dollars (and many extremely wealthy cinephiles not wasting their time in these forums use them in their theaters, but I guess they are not discerning). But his presumptuousness is especially highlighted by his statement about audio. Many of the highly regarded speakers costing tens of thousands of dollars if not more than 100s of thousands of dollars are highly sensitive, and as Harman's research shows, most folk prefer the sound of neutral speakers with good off axis performance.

Dunning–Kruger effect - a cognitive bias where individuals exhibiting poor ability suffer from an illusion of superiority, due to their mistaken assessment of their cognitive ability. That is, a high level of incompetence prevents such individuals from cognitively recognizing their own ineptitude. Yeah, been there...done that.
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post #368 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
So you are suggesting 50% of the film content in most films has such poor lighting in the scenes, projectors such as JVC have an advantage over an LK790 that some suggest performs extremely well with HDR. Other than some obvious science fiction movies and horror movies I cannot think of many movies where half of the content would place a projector that only has the advantage on on/off CR (assuming the LK790 can equal or surpass the JVC in the other areas) being preferable. If you have mixed light content in a scene, the projector with greater ANSI CR and better performing HDR will likely have the advantage in most cases. Since the assumption being provided is that many if not most films have mostly scenes that advantage the JVC (one would assume since otherwise people should be criticizing the JVC for failing to match or best the LK790 in most film content), I would like to see some objective data supporting the claim. Can anyone please provide actual data suggesting that 20-50% of the content on most films advantages a projector with excellent on/off CR as opposed to a superior projector from the perspective of HDR, ANSI CR, sharpness, lumens, etc. I am not trying to suggest this is not possible, I am saying that my experience from watching movies suggests that it is highly unlikely. But data supporting the claim is far superior evidence than my assumed expectation. In fact, if we could consider 10 major films where this is the case, I think that would at least give some credence to the unquestionable preference being suggested by some non-DLP posters. I have not seen Green Book, but one of the posters who was highly critical of the LK790 without ever seeing it (he dismissed the LK790 in another forum as nothing more than a business projector with a good lens) spoke highly of the film. What percentage of that film would likely give an advantage to the JVC vs what percentage of the film would give an advantage to the LK790?


Note: what I find most interesting is that the LK790 can be seen as superior in any meaningful way despite costing substantially less, but many of the non-DLP posters seem more concerned about how it "fails".
The crossover point is right at 15%. So above 15% the advantage in contrast goes to the BenQ. Below 15% advantage goes to the JVC.
https://i2.wp.com/projectiondream.co...pped_ADL_1.png
Now you can see why Art of Flight was shown on nearly every DLP at CEDIA the year that movie came out.

Added
This is a great article. Everyone should read. http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/

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post #369 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
So you are suggesting 50% of the film content in most films has such poor lighting in the scenes, projectors such as JVC have an advantage over an LK790 that some suggest performs extremely well with HDR. Other than some obvious science fiction movies and horror movies I cannot think of many movies where half of the content would place a projector that only has the advantage on on/off CR (assuming the LK790 can equal or surpass the JVC in the other areas) being preferable. If you have mixed light content in a scene, the projector with greater ANSI CR and better performing HDR will likely have the advantage in most cases. Since the assumption being provided is that many if not most films have mostly scenes that advantage the JVC (one would assume since otherwise people should be criticizing the JVC for failing to match or best the LK790 in most film content), I would like to see some objective data supporting the claim. Can anyone please provide actual data suggesting that 20-50% of the content on most films advantages a projector with excellent on/off CR as opposed to a superior projector from the perspective of HDR, ANSI CR, sharpness, lumens, etc. I am not trying to suggest this is not possible, I am saying that my experience from watching movies suggests that it is highly unlikely. But data supporting the claim is far superior evidence than my assumed expectation. In fact, if we could consider 10 major films where this is the case, I think that would at least give some credence to the unquestionable preference being suggested by some non-DLP posters. I have not seen Green Book, but one of the posters who was highly critical of the LK790 without ever seeing it (he dismissed the LK790 in another forum as nothing more than a business projector with a good lens) spoke highly of the film. What percentage of that film would likely give an advantage to the JVC vs what percentage of the film would give an advantage to the LK790?



Yea that's what I'm suggesting. Let me show you an example. Javs measured this around 2% ADL. I was shocked. I used this originally to "prove" to javs that the JVC iris reacts in much brighter content because it reacts on this. He then measured it and I was surprised. Turns out about 50% of content is below the 5% ADL in films.
Remember the JVC had advantage up to around 15% ADL. Then the advantage up to say 20% on the LK970 is probably not really noticeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
Note: what I find most interesting is that the LK790 can be seen as superior in any meaningful way despite costing substantially less, but many of the non-DLP posters seem more concerned about how it "fails".
Yea the reason for this is because where the LK970 fails, it fails super hard. The blacks on a very dark scene are going to be so poor that if this is not acceptable to you, you will not be happy.

Consider it like this. Would you consider a car that is superior to a Ferrari in most ways, looks just as good, and costs 1/4th the price even if say that car had no windows and could never have windows no matter what you did?
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post #370 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
I get that you can tame the brightness, I was referring to the "film like" look that LCD/LCoS chips produce. The Sonys are particularly good at that.
It's really just what people like. Many think the sonys are flat as a pancake, lacking depth in every way.

For me, the image isn't meant to look less sharp. What's being fed into the projector shouldn't be hindered by convergence of the panels, CA from the lens or any other anomaly. I think we're just used to the 'get of jail free' cards that 3 chip manufacturers have been feeding us over the years. Film like as in commercial cinema, well those huge screens are mostly lit up by, you guessed it, DLP projection.

Here's the only anomaly from my 990, the light hitting my ceiling fan showing the red/green/blue artifacting. On screens she's as close to perfect as can be right now. Calibration takes this thing to another level again.
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post #371 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
It's really just what people like. Many think the sonys are flat as a pancake, lacking depth in every way.

For me, the image isn't meant to look less sharp. What's being fed into the projector shouldn't be hindered by convergence of the panels, CA from the lens or any other anomaly. I think we're just used to the 'get of jail free' cards that 3 chip manufacturers have been feeding us over the years. Film like as in commercial cinema, well those huge screens are mostly lit up by, you guessed it, DLP projection.

Here's the only anomaly from my 990, the light hitting my ceiling fan showing the red/green/blue artifacting. On screens she's as close to perfect as can be right now. Calibration takes this thing to another level again.
Are your walls and ceiling white? The attached picture you provided, is that light that is escaping the projector?
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post #372 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 09:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Yea that's what I'm suggesting. Let me show you an example. Javs measured this around 2% ADL. I was shocked. I used this originally to "prove" to javs that the JVC iris reacts in much brighter content because it reacts on this. He then measured it and I was surprised. Turns out about 50% of content is below the 5% ADL in films.

Remember the JVC had advantage up to around 15% ADL. Then the advantage up to say 20% on the LK970 is probably not really noticeable.........
I have to say though, it’s on images almost exactly like the one you posted where it looks fabulous on the LK970, probably better than what you posted actually. So I guess it does well at 2% ADL too.

What scene is that from? I’ll try to replicate.



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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
......Yea the reason for this is because where the LK970 fails, it fails super hard. The blacks on a very dark scene are going to be so poor that if this is not acceptable to you, you will not be happy. ...........

I’m surprised you would say that before getting yours yet. That has not been my experience, but yes it’s not JVC black of course, but also not nearly as bad as you’re portraying either.
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post #373 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 09:38 PM
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Kind of hard to say DLP doesn't look film-like when 99% of modern theaters project films using DLP.
How many of those are single chip DLP with color wheels ? Asking for a friend.
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post #374 of 960 Old 03-26-2019, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I have to say though, it’s on images almost exactly like the one you posted where it looks fabulous on the LK970, probably better than what you posted actually. So I guess it does well at 2% ADL too.

What scene is that from? I’ll try to replicate.

http://hifiandtheater.com/files/bull-trim.mkv


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I’m surprised you would say that before getting yours yet. That has not been my experience, but yes it’s not JVC black of course, but also not nearly as bad as you’re portraying either.
I was only trying to say why people focus on the negative so much.
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BenQ LK990

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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
How many of those are single chip DLP with color wheels ? Asking for a friend.

Sour grapes?

Funny how you can keep coming here dishing it out but when I made ONE post similar to this on your precious RS4500 thread, you got your panties all in a wad and cried foul.

(P.S. - you’re probably not even reading this because I’m on your ignore list! )
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Originally Posted by armyplace View Post
Whats the major differences between a BENQ LK970 vs the LK990?
I guess if i was to purchase the LK970, what I'm I missing out on besides the extra lumens as my fully light controlled HT room has only 120" screen. Wonder if getting a grey screen could help boost the black levels since we have lots of lumens to play with!

I was wondering the exact same thing. The LK970 sounds great, but it does make you wonder if the 990 is worth the jump up. I guess as more people get their hands on it and adjust it to the best settings, we will get a better idea.
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Was this SDR or HDR? Is there a similar scene that was referenced from a UHD Blu-ray? I don’t have HDR capability with a PC.
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Was this SDR or HDR? Is there a similar scene that was referenced from a UHD Blu-ray? I don’t have HDR capability with a PC.
This is just a clip from a tv show no HDR.
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I am getting mine on the 9th I think. I should have it a couple weeks. May also be getting a look at the 5700...

Pretty keen to have a look!
Javs, hopefully you will post your impressions of the W5700 in the HT5550/W5700 tread here on AVS😊
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Javs, hopefully you will post your impressions of the W5700 in the HT5550/W5700 tread here on AVS
Definitely.

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post #381 of 960 Old 03-27-2019, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
I get that you can tame the brightness, I was referring to the "film like" look that LCD/LCoS chips produce. The Sonys are particularly good at that. Regardless, I would say that if a casual projector buyer (i.e. not a discerning cinephile like people on these forums) were to look at those images they would pick that over even a $50K "Home Theater" projector, all the time, no doubt about it. Bright, razor sharp images win all the time, there is a reason retail stores turn on the brightness on TVs all the way up. I can think of so many people I know (including some rich people like Doctors) that built home theaters and have no interest in movies, just because they want one in their house. I think these DLP companies are missing out on so much potential sales. They need to buy space in specialty HT stores and I can guarantee the 90 percent who shop there will pick the DLP (assuming RBE is a non factor). It is just like speakers - most casual folks prefer the horn loaded ones like Klipsch, not a neutral sounding, low-sensitivity brand, because they are loud.
A bit off topic - but I probably wouldn't go for low-sensitivity speakers personally. I would like neutral & high sensitivity. There's a lot of advantages to both neutrality and sensitivity, and I wouldn't necessarily rate one as always more important, for everyone.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I’ve been in this business 30+ years and think I know a good image from bad, and the LK970 is NOT just a cheap bright and sharp DLP projector that HT dolts will choose over a $50K “good one” because they’re too ignorant
to know the difference, as you suggest.

So less like Viewsonic ls 800 and more like little Barco's Balder or Loki? I wonder exactly where does the lumen/contrast come into play? I may have this wrong but didn't the Sony 5000 initially max out at 9500:1. The Thor was 4k:1(it went to 5500:1) and was thought to be lacking contrast wise. Then the 5000 came out and suddenly the Sony got a pass at only 9500:1.guess that the consumer dila chip cannot do high lumens with high contrast? Simulation market does not apply.
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post #383 of 960 Old 03-27-2019, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
So was I.
So you are suggesting 50% of the film content in most films has such poor lighting in the scenes, projectors such as JVC have an advantage over an LK790 that some suggest performs extremely well with HDR. Other than some obvious science fiction movies and horror movies I cannot think of many movies where half of the content would place a projector that only has the advantage on on/off CR (assuming the LK790 can equal or surpass the JVC in the other areas) being preferable. If you have mixed light content in a scene, the projector with greater ANSI CR and better performing HDR will likely have the advantage in most cases. Since the assumption being provided is that many if not most films have mostly scenes that advantage the JVC (one would assume since otherwise people should be criticizing the JVC for failing to match or best the LK790 in most film content), I would like to see some objective data supporting the claim. Can anyone please provide actual data suggesting that 20-50% of the content on most films advantages a projector with excellent on/off CR as opposed to a superior projector from the perspective of HDR, ANSI CR, sharpness, lumens, etc. I am not trying to suggest this is not possible, I am saying that my experience from watching movies suggests that it is highly unlikely. But data supporting the claim is far superior evidence than my assumed expectation. In fact, if we could consider 10 major films where this is the case, I think that would at least give some credence to the unquestionable preference being suggested by some non-DLP posters. I have not seen Green Book, but one of the posters who was highly critical of the LK790 without ever seeing it (he dismissed the LK790 in another forum as nothing more than a business projector with a good lens) spoke highly of the film. What percentage of that film would likely give an advantage to the JVC vs what percentage of the film would give an advantage to the LK790?


Note: what I find most interesting is that the LK790 can be seen as superior in any meaningful way despite costing substantially less, but many of the non-DLP posters seem more concerned about how it "fails".
What mark is saying that statiscally yes most movies scenes are in the low apl, and that is right and proven with data.
The thing is some of the scenes u think arent low apl, when measured they turn out low, the LK series handle those scenes really good, its only in the very very very low APL that it struggles and those scenes are the minority in movies unless its a scifi or overal dark movie.
So yes u are right when u say 80% of scenes or more looks excellent on the LK and i dont mind the other % not being the best.

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post #384 of 960 Old 03-27-2019, 03:36 AM
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Are your walls and ceiling white? The attached picture you provided, is that light that is escaping the projector?
No sorry, it's corel draws white background. The white slithers on the left and right of each pic? Yes corel draw, the image was too large straight off my phone so I resized to 1200 pixels wide.

My showroom is all black, fidelio velvet ceiling panels above screen and matte black walls and jet black carpet.
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post #385 of 960 Old 03-27-2019, 04:47 AM
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I played with the HDR brightness setting last night using +2 instead of 0. It did get rid of SOME of the haze I was seeing on mixed brightness scenes. It looked real nice. I think with stock HDR this is probably closer to what Dave’s settings accomplish. Dave will let us know today.

If you ignore the low contrast or don’t care, this is a fabulous pj. I do see some rainbows now and then. It still isn’t good enough for me on lower brightness material. I never considered myself a black level snob, but I want a rich convincing image. High contrast is the foundation of that image, not just on the darkest of dark scenes but on a good portion of most films. I guess I’m a snob lol. Having this PJ has been fun and a good learning experience. I see why people like it. I’m glad we now have more options.
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post #386 of 960 Old 03-27-2019, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
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No sorry, it's corel draws white background. The white slithers on the left and right of each pic? Yes corel draw, the image was too large straight off my phone so I resized to 1200 pixels wide.

My showroom is all black, fidelio velvet ceiling panels above screen and matte black walls and jet black carpet.
Thanks for explaining. It did not quite look white, but it did look a light color. Speakers also looked the same color and that is what made me question if the picture was actually showing what it looked like. What about the light escape on the ceiling?
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post #387 of 960 Old 03-27-2019, 05:59 AM
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This is a great article. Everyone should read. http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/
Thanks for the link, good article.
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post #388 of 960 Old 03-27-2019, 09:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckgolf View Post
I played with the HDR brightness setting last night using +2 instead of 0. It did get rid of SOME of the haze I was seeing on mixed brightness scenes. It looked real nice. I think with stock HDR this is probably closer to what Dave’s settings accomplish. Dave will let us know today.



If you ignore the low contrast or don’t care, this is a fabulous pj. I do see some rainbows now and then. It still isn’t good enough for me on lower brightness material. I never considered myself a black level snob, but I want a rich convincing image. High contrast is the foundation of that image, not just on the darkest of dark scenes but on a good portion of most films. I guess I’m a snob lol. Having this PJ has been fun and a good learning experience. I see why people like it. I’m glad we now have more options.

Unfortunately I probably won’t be able to let you know today. The LK990 is scheduled to arrive but I’m working all day and then have a meeting tonight. Of course it works out that way that on the only night I have a meeting is the same day my LK990 arrives after a long arduous wait, haha! Murphy has his laws, after all!

I may have time to unbox it and just check some of the stock settings out though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
No sorry, it's corel draws white background. The white slithers on the left and right of each pic? Yes corel draw, the image was too large straight off my phone so I resized to 1200 pixels wide.

My showroom is all black, fidelio velvet ceiling panels above screen and matte black walls and jet black carpet.
Well I guess that’s another comment that refutes the FUD being spread that this DLP model can’t be used in a dark bat cave.

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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Thanks for explaining. It did not quite look white, but it did look a light color. Speakers also looked the same color and that is what made me question if the picture was actually showing what it looked like. What about the light escape on the ceiling?

The LKs do have some light spill around the lens unfortunately. I had a long black board that was used for mounting the ISCO and extended out the front so I haven’t noticed it in a long time.
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post #389 of 960 Old 03-27-2019, 10:01 AM
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Never did do a side by side, the older DLP's have better contrast, but they did not have dynamic iris. Sharpness has never been an issue with any DLP with decent lens.
...makes sense. Thanks for telling me your impressions.
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post #390 of 960 Old 03-27-2019, 10:11 AM
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The crossover point is right at 15%. So above 15% the advantage in contrast goes to the BenQ. Below 15% advantage goes to the JVC.
https://i2.wp.com/projectiondream.co...pped_ADL_1.png
Now you can see why Art of Flight was shown on nearly every DLP at CEDIA the year that movie came out.

Added
This is a great article. Everyone should read. http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/

good article. How does this translate to viewing experience with different screen size of 100 inch vs 160 inch , assuming all other parameters are same .
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