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post #481 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
This shot which Dave has posted before, is only 0.25% ADL.

I personally dont anticipate this one to hold up too well in comparison, but we will see.

MadVR does interesting things with shots like this, because for this comparison (when I view on my 55" HDTV on my desk - my computer monitor) I told MadVR to tone map to 120 nits peak. But when it detects a peak nit under 120 (which this scene is), it does not tone map at all, it displays every pixel 1:1 with no manipulation at all. Hardly any HDR tone mapping solution out there will do this, it results in a brighter image as if you are viewing on a real world 10,000 nits display. It will only tone map what it needs to if you go above that, its very smart.

The image of Leo above is 300, so on any display that can hit a peak closer to that, it should look more dynamic since it will again tone map 1:1 until a point.




Javs, can I ask you what may seem as a dumb question, but what allows or helps a projector to have a "lower or low black floor" if that is the correct term? Why is it, for example, that the JVC X790r has great black levels but the RS4500 are not as good as the 790. They are from the same manufacturer, but they cannot achieve the same level of "black". I ask because if the LK970 or LK990 could just getting a little better at that area, it would turn the projector market on its head. Is there anything, such as a lumagen, that could help the LK970 in that area?
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post #482 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 07:58 PM
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These photos taken with my phone...rs540 with panny 820...not yet calibrated..auto2... they were taken in motion as well... i should have paused.. Note there are two photos here. One showed up as an attachment, the other didnt.. weird.. tap-a-talk

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post #483 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by silver700 View Post


Javs, can I ask you what may seem as a dumb question, but what allows or helps a projector to have a "lower or low black floor" if that is the correct term? Why is it, for example, that the JVC X790r has great black levels but the RS4500 are not as good as the 790. They are from the same manufacturer, but they cannot achieve the same level of "black". I ask because if the LK970 or LK990 could just getting a little better at that area, it would turn the projector market on its head. Is there anything, such as a lumagen, that could help the LK970 in that area?
I have yet to see one, I will be getting mine on the 9th or 10th. But a lower black floor can usually come from excellent dimming system, or even a mechanical iris in the light path, and obviously a high native contrast helps.

The Sony760 according to some people, when you lower the laser level, it does not appreciably lower the black floor properly with it like it should, so it actually reduces contrast. I will be testing this on the LK, but from what I have seen, I think the black floor does also come down with the laser level.

The Eshift JVC's are on like the 9th gen or later (forgot exactly) of the DILA chips, so they have been refined over a very long time, when they made the move to 4K, each pixel got half the size, so it was more difficult to carry over the same measures on a chip level to increase contrast.

No lumagen or anything like that can help with it.

I will be feeding back to BenQ with a pretty darned high emphasis on improving the dimming system, and definitely making sure it completely fades to black, thats one thing where my brain always gets pulled out of a film where it fades to a grey screen. Also, I want them to enable you to set a laser level for the peak brightness you wish to have, and then also allow dimming to work in tandem with that. As far as I understand dimming only works with two different power levels correct? You can either go full brightness or about half brightness?

Personally I would like to be able to set HDR for something like 150-200 nits, and SDR for 60 nits or so. You cant do that without a manual adjustment. Maybe you can now, but does dimming work at the same time?

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post #484 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 08:51 PM
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You are correct Javs in reference to the current dimming algorithm on the LK series. If they apply themselves they should be able to greatly improve the low apl performance without adding to many artifacts or pumping via firmware. IMO, it still won't be competitive with the better LCOS models but it will be a lot better than what we have now. I think the projector has a lot going for it and that firmware upgrade would definitely help the bad black floor medicine taste a little better.





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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I have yet to see one, I will be getting mine on the 9th or 10th. But a lower black floor can usually come from excellent dimming system, or even a mechanical iris in the light path, and obviously a high native contrast helps.

The Sony760 according to some people, when you lower the laser level, it does not appreciably lower the black floor properly with it like it should, so it actually reduces contrast. I will be testing this on the LK, but from what I have seen, I think the black floor does also come down with the laser level.

The Eshift JVC's are on like the 9th gen or later (forgot exactly) of the DILA chips, so they have been refined over a very long time, when they made the move to 4K, each pixel got half the size, so it was more difficult to carry over the same measures on a chip level to increase contrast.

No lumagen or anything like that can help with it.

I will be feeding back to BenQ with a pretty darned high emphasis on improving the dimming system, and definitely making sure it completely fades to black, thats one thing where my brain always gets pulled out of a film where it fades to a grey screen. Also, I want them to enable you to set a laser level for the peak brightness you wish to have, and then also allow dimming to work in tandem with that. As far as I understand dimming only works with two different power levels correct? You can either go full brightness or about half brightness?

Personally I would like to be able to set HDR for something like 150-200 nits, and SDR for 60 nits or so. You cant do that without a manual adjustment. Maybe you can now, but does dimming work at the same time?
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post #485 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Please understand that I have never made those assumptions if you’re referring to me. What I DID do and say is that the impressions and images that were shared did not in any way represent what I and many others see on the images on our LKs. This then naturally points to one fo two things, either it isn’t setup completely the same way that we do or there is something wrong with the unit. After all, we are the ones that have lived with it for many more months than the new posters have, so why is this then so unreasonable to think or say??? If the shoe were on the other JVC or Sony foot, and it has been MANY times, then nobody would question the JVC and Sony experts here if they said the same thing I did about something like a JVC RS640, 4500 or Sony VWxxxES.

All it takes is to be open, honest, nice, and sincerely wanting to maximize the image without bias or blame on the BenQs and then just contact me in a humble manner with an open mind and I would be happy to share with anyone my thoughts, theories and settings on these and would help them achieve what I have happily. The problem is, this hasn’t happened and when I say something, they get all condescending and arrogant like “how dare I question their setup abilities or knowledge”, when in fact I am so far out of the box in my thinking on this I don’t expect ANYONE to think and do it the same way, so ask away......PLEASE!!!! I just want to have fun with everyone and enjoy this but so many people here make it SO HARD to do that!

Dave, you have always come across as very passionate about your craft and there is no doubt you want to spread the word about something you stumbled upon and found amazing, i.e., take a commercial projector and tweak it for home use. You have pointed out several times that contrast is not a strength but it checks many other boxes and COULD be suitable for many folks who have similar needs. But there are some who do not see this the same way and get way too defensive. So no issues with your passionate responses, although I must say you get fairly wound up at times
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post #486 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
The ADL contrast performance has only so far been measured with no dimming active, I want to know what it meaures dynamically that will also be interesting to see at what point the LK takes over with regards to ADL contrast, and if that is also able to be photographed, I want to do it and share for those who cannot easily see these units.
I thought woofer measured it at 3900:1 or so dynamic engaged.

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post #487 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 09:01 PM
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I thought woofer measured it at 3900:1 or so dynamic engaged.
I am talking about the ADL range.
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post #488 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
This is a great idea. We all know the JVC's are far better projectors with very dark content. Also, judging by the opinions stated by various users, the LK is a better projectors with bright content. The question for those who don't consider image reproduction of very dark or very bright material the primary measure, is what ADL level is the transition point where one projector performs better than the other. This provides an objective point from where a potential purchaser can consider what level of compromise he or she is willing to make from a contrast ratio perspective (be it on/off or ANSI).

BTW, nice choice of camera, it should have sufficient dynamic range to provide comparison photos.
Again woofer measured this on the RS4500 and the LK970 and it looks like the crossover point is around 15% ADL. The LK970 was almost 1000:1 from 0 to 50% where the RS4500 started really high and gradually works down to around 300:1.

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post #489 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Again woofer measured this on the RS4500 and the LK970 and it looks like the crossover point is around 15% ADL. The LK970 was almost 1000:1 from 0 to 50% where the RS4500 started really high and gradually works down to around 300:1.
He has not measured the full ADL range using dimming enabled, only native, and he does not actually have a 990 which seems to have a slightly different dimming system.

If he has, please show me the link.

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post #490 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 09:18 PM
 
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BenQ LK990

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
You are correct Javs in reference to the current dimming algorithm on the LK series. If they apply themselves they should be able to greatly improve the low apl performance without adding to many artifacts or pumping via firmware. IMO, it still won't be competitive with the better LCOS models but it will be a lot better than what we have now. I think the projector has a lot going for it and that firmware upgrade would definitely help the bad black floor medicine taste a little better.
Just for reference since you only have an LK970, the LK990 has added some of this and improved upon it some over the 970, with features like SmartEco.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gravi View Post
Dave, you have always come across as very passionate about your craft and there is no doubt you want to spread the word about something you stumbled upon and found amazing, i.e., take a commercial projector and tweak it for home use. You have pointed out several times that contrast is not a strength but it checks many other boxes and COULD be suitable for many folks who have similar needs. But there are some who do not see this the same way and get way too defensive. So no issues with your passionate responses, although I must say you get fairly wound up at times
Yes I certainly do get wound up sometimes and I apologize now in advance before I am in that state again, haha!

There are things that have happened in my life that have attributed to that at this point in my life. I never used to be that way, but due to a VERY bad health scare that started in 2003 and continues to this day, I have come to the realization that nobody has my best interests at heart nearly as much as I do myself. Especially with this being about my health I had to fight like a crazed dog to be heard and get the true care I needed despite all the naysayers and so called “experts” in their field. I was told many times “it’s all in your head” and subsequently proved them wrong and was finally medically treated properly and was able to get out of bed and back to some semblance of my life. I unfortunately think this triggers me and gets carried into things here when I encounter similar resistance and I don’t feel like I’m being truly heard and listened to until complete understanding is made, whether you agree or not, which is all I really want.

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
..........

I will be feeding back to BenQ with a pretty darned high emphasis on improving the dimming system, and definitely making sure it completely fades to black, thats one thing where my brain always gets pulled out of a film where it fades to a grey screen. Also, I want them to enable you to set a laser level for the peak brightness you wish to have, and then also allow dimming to work in tandem with that. As far as I understand dimming only works with two different power levels correct? You can either go full brightness or about half brightness?

Personally I would like to be able to set HDR for something like 150-200 nits, and SDR for 60 nits or so. You cant do that without a manual adjustment. Maybe you can now, but does dimming work at the same time?
The LK990 does completely fade to black with SmartEco mode, but it’s a cliff from a higher level and not as gradual as it should be, which needs to be reported and improved. The LK970 goes to grey and that’s something I don’t like either.

There are three modes that have some dimming on the 990. Normal and Eco only use the stock Automatic Power Control which does a decent job within the image without really fading to black. The other mode that’s best is the SmartEco mode which then adds dynamic Light source dimming and apparently gamma manipulation, just like their other home theater projectors that feature SmartEco.

Your 150-200 nit HDR and 60 nit SDR are pretty much right up my alley and about what I have iirc.

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
This shot which Dave has posted before, is only 0.25% ADL.

I personally dont anticipate this one to hold up too well in comparison, but we will see......
Maybe it won’t hold up well in direct comparison to the JVCs, but on its own it’s pretty damned good actually, and that’s my point. It looks the way the image I posted looks, just as dark and detailed (at least on my screen here anyway, can’t say the one someone else is looking at now would be the same). The one of the same image on a JVC that someone posted after yours looks much too bright for a 0.25% APL scene if you ask me.

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.........MadVR does interesting things with shots like this, because for this comparison (when I view on my 55" HDTV on my desk - my computer monitor) I told MadVR to tone map to 120 nits peak. But when it detects a peak nit under 120 (which this scene is), it does not tone map at all, it displays every pixel 1:1 with no manipulation at all. Hardly any HDR tone mapping solution out there will do this, it results in a brighter image as if you are viewing on a real world 10,000 nits display. It will only tone map what it needs to if you go above that, its very smart.

The image of Leo above is 300, so on any display that can hit a peak closer to that, it should look more dynamic since it will again tone map 1:1 until a point.


Hmmmm I never thought of that. Maybe that’s the key here? Maybe the BenQ’s implementation of Automatic Power Control for laser dimming, and now with SmartEco dimming added on the 990, isn’t doing the same thing or is doing something completely different? Maybe it’s mapping and adjusting its laser power, gamma, etc. all the way down to essentially the projector’s zero point, unlike your MadVR? Maybe this explains why the JVC image posted above looks so much brighter?

I want to thank you Javs for being the only one to come into this seemingly open and interested in finding out what’s going on here. I wish all the others responded as you do and asked real follow on questions with an open mind, seemingly wanting to know more and to make sure you have everything set as best you can given the circumstances. This makes it all so much better. Thanks man, you get a Gold Star! ⭐️ (at least until I read your review, haha! )
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post #491 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 09:33 PM
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The images I shared are a source grab from the tone mapped MadVR image, not a photo. If you view that same image on any display at 120 nits peak, it will be exactly as that scene is intended to be viewed according to the data encoded.

Im not sure I understand this:

Quote:
Hmmmm I never thought of that. Maybe that’s the key here? Maybe the BenQ’s implementation of Automatic Power Control for laser dimming, and now with SmartEco dimming added on the 990, isn’t doing the same thing or is doing something completely different? Maybe it’s mapping and adjusting its laser power, gamma, etc. all the way down to essentially the projector’s zero point, unlike your MadVR? Maybe this explains why the JVC image posted above looks so much brighter?
The JVC image shared above could easily be down to camera auto exposure, its hard to tell. You have to be careful with that when taking photos, something I know how to do which is one reason I will be doing it since we should get a good look at any differences. There is not supposed to be too much colour in those shots either, but that's subjective territory if you wish to jack up the colour well past reference.

I will also share the source frames with the photos, should be another interesting aspect anyway.

This shot is an example of a VERY difficult scene to render unless you have something like MadVR doing 1:1 pixel mapping at low ADL. This shot is only 6 nits. Getting the green tree, the brown coat and the blue shirt to all show up at the correct brightness.

Looking forward to it all.

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post #492 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 09:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Again woofer measured this on the RS4500 and the LK970 and it looks like the crossover point is around 15% ADL. The LK970 was almost 1000:1 from 0 to 50% where the RS4500 started really high and gradually works down to around 300:1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
He has not measured the full ADL range using dimming enabled, only native, and he does not actually have a 990 which seems to have a slightly different dimming system.

If he has, please show me the link.

Exactly! That 1,000:1 contrast on the LK970 isn’t really correct. That is native when you ONLY use the Custom Laser Power setting with no dimming whatsoever. Nobody will ever use that for movies (or at least shouldn’t!). This projector wasn’t designed for HT so they never thought to defeat the active APC dimming. There was no reason to so basically the APC dimming IS its native level if you ask me. It’s the way it was designed from the ground up.

The grey you see on an LK970 is NOT the absolute black floor of the projector. You can easily discern this when an image is being played. As 12GAGE as reported multiple times, when you display a pluge pattern for blacks or white clipping pattern at 100%, the APC doesn’t respond like you think it should and doesn’t give the full 100% power on top or the lowest power it can do at the bottom end. It only appears to happen with real video image content. It’s kind of strange actually.

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
The images I shared are a source grab from the tone mapped MadVR image, not a photo. If you view that same image on any display at 120 nits peak, it will be exactly as that scene is intended to be viewed according to the data encoded.

Im not sure I understand this:

The JVC image shared above could easily be down to camera auto exposure, its hard to tell. You have to be careful with that when taking photos, something I know how to do which is one reason I will be doing it since we should get a good look at any differences. There is not supposed to be too much colour in those shots either, but that's subjective territory if you wish to jack up the colour well past reference.

I will also share the source frames with the photos, should be another interesting aspect anyway.

This shot is an example of a VERY difficult scene to render unless you have something like MadVR doing 1:1 pixel mapping at low ADL. This shot is only 6 nits. Getting the green tree, the brown coat and the blue shirt to all show up at the correct brightness.

Looking forward to it all.


Too funny, this is also a scene I halted on and watched a few times as I had The Revenant playing. I think it was brighter than it should’ve been, but it still looked good and not too hazy like you see on poorer DLPs. It also had good low level color rendition as you mentioned it should. This is one scene where you can easily see the difference between the LK990 with SmartEco compared to no SmartEco on the LK970.

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post #493 of 1021 Old 03-29-2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Please understand that I have never made those assumptions if you’re referring to me. What I DID do and say is that the impressions and images that were shared did not in any way represent what I and many others see on the images on our LKs. This then naturally points to one fo two things, either it isn’t setup completely the same way that we do or there is something wrong with the unit. After all, we are the ones that have lived with it for many more months than the new posters have, so why is this then so unreasonable to think or say??? If the shoe were on the other JVC or Sony foot, and it has been MANY times, then nobody would question the JVC and Sony experts here if they said the same thing I did about something like a JVC RS640, 4500 or Sony VWxxxES.

All it takes is to be open, honest, nice, and sincerely wanting to maximize the image without bias or blame on the BenQs and then just contact me in a humble manner with an open mind and I would be happy to share with anyone my thoughts, theories and settings on these and would help them achieve what I have happily. The problem is, this hasn’t happened and when I say something, they get all condescending and arrogant like “how dare I question their setup abilities or knowledge”, when in fact I am so far out of the box in my thinking on this I don’t expect ANYONE to think and do it the same way, so ask away......PLEASE!!!! I just want to have fun with everyone and enjoy this but so many people here make it SO HARD to do that!




This is an exact image that I looked at many times on the LK970 and again the other night with the LK990. It looks great and very much like the image you posted. What projector was that taken from?
RS540, Dave if you are seeing similar performance that’s good to hear.
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post #494 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 12:10 AM
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A manual iris to close down while at full laser power with good dynamic dimming, would that not be one answer for Benq to look at implementing? Should improve contrast maybe.
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post #495 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bobyvee View Post
A manual iris to close down while at full laser power with good dynamic dimming, would that not be one answer for Benq to look at implementing? Should improve contrast maybe.
I guess we should distinguish between possible firmware changes (very readily accomplished) and hardware changes (which would be new products).
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post #496 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 02:14 AM
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I guess we should distinguish between possible firmware changes (very readily accomplished) and hardware changes (which would be new products).
Could be a good new product though!
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post #497 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 04:34 AM
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I guess we should distinguish between possible firmware changes (very readily accomplished) and hardware changes (which would be new products).
the thing is most companies can add features via frimware update but they dont so they can sell new products.
All of the LK990 features that the 970 doesnt have can be added via frimware from Native HDR to 3D to having smarteco and arguably the 1000 extra lumens, now the 990 couldve had an Iris but i guess that will be in the LK1000 if that is what they will call it or motorised lens and so on so people keep upgrading.

JVC DLA X590/RS440
BenQ LK970
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post #498 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 05:05 AM
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I have come to the realization that nobody has my best interests at heart nearly as much as I do myself. Especially with this being about my health I had to fight like a crazed dog to be heard and get the true care I needed despite all the naysayers and so called “experts” in their field. I was told many times “it’s all in your head” and subsequently proved them wrong and was finally medically treated properly and was able to get out of bed and back to some semblance of my life. I unfortunately think this triggers me and gets carried into things here when I encounter similar resistance and I don’t feel like I’m being truly heard and listened to until complete understanding is made, whether you agree or not, which is all I really want.






Couldn’t agree more. Especially in regards to our health, we have to be our own advocates. My wife diagnosed herself months before any specialist would listen. They said it was in her head and it wasn’t what she thought. We had to visit the best specialist in our area and he proved her suspicions correct. She’s doing better and I hope you are too.
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post #499 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
the thing is most companies can add features via frimware update but they dont so they can sell new products.
All of the LK990 features that the 970 doesnt have can be added via frimware from Native HDR to 3D to having smarteco and arguably the 1000 extra lumens, now the 990 couldve had an Iris but i guess that will be in the LK1000 if that is what they will call it or motorised lens and so on so people keep upgrading.
If there ever was a firmware update, am I correct that you have to ship this pj back to have them do it. I think that’s what I read.
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post #500 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ckgolf View Post
If there ever was a firmware update, am I correct that you have to ship this pj back to have them do it. I think that’s what I read.
yes that is correct.

JVC DLA X590/RS440
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post #501 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 06:47 AM
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Raul, I think it depends on a number of things. In my case, I am light controlled but not in a velvet pit or dark room. In my room, under 1% APL I can see the unit struggles to render scenes.



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Javs, one last point. As I understand it from the link provided in a response to one of my posts (https://i2.wp.com/projectiondream.co...pped_ADL_1.png), half of the film content of virtually every film provided in the analysis (only 1 exception) fell under 15% ADL, and about half of them were at 5% ADL or less (many of which I would have never guessed were that dark...yes I live up to my signature). I know some of the LK users have posted that only the really dark material hampers their enjoyment of the LK, otherwise they find the LK's performance in low ADL as being good to great. It would be nice to know the threshold where the LK is OK-Nice, and the general measurement where it is troubling to watch (I realize this is personal, but your opinion in combination with photos you feel reflect your findings could add to our understanding and to the general discussion).


Again, thanks for your time.
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post #502 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 01:28 PM
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Raul, I think it depends on a number of things. In my case, I am light controlled but not in a velvet pit or dark room. In my room, under 1% APL I can see the unit struggles to render scenes.
Very important point that sometimes gets forgotten (or assumed) in discussions. I am about to redo my media room and will use black velvet in the front half. 1% APL is a little higher than I would like. Dave suggested the .25% APL image posted was decently reproduced with the LK990 (I realize one person's decent might be another person's inadequate), that is one of the reasons I am looking forward to Javs' assessment and photos. As I noted before I like Sci-Fi films, so I do need the projector to at least be decent with material at .25% (i.e. not necessarily JVC great, but good enough not to be pulled out of the movie and to get a reasonable sense of the image).

Dunning–Kruger effect - a cognitive bias where individuals exhibiting poor ability suffer from an illusion of superiority, due to their mistaken assessment of their cognitive ability. That is, a high level of incompetence prevents such individuals from cognitively recognizing their own ineptitude. Yeah, been there...done that.
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post #503 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
yes that is correct.
First suggestion to BenQ: support local firmware updates
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post #504 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 02:24 PM
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That is definitely a consideration. Once you have the black velvet the perception of contrast and black level definitely changes. I think in a dark room, the extremely low apl stuff will be challenging for the 970. It should perform well otherwise. Javs is definitely doing the board a great service with his testing. It will be greatly appreciated.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
Raul, I think it depends on a number of things. In my case, I am light controlled but not in a velvet pit or dark room. In my room, under 1% APL I can see the unit struggles to render scenes.
Very important point that sometimes gets forgotten (or assumed) in discussions. I am about to redo my media room and will use black velvet in the front half. 1% APL is a little higher than I would like. Dave suggested the .25% APL image posted was decently reproduced with the LK990 (I realize one person's decent might be another person's inadequate), that is one of the reasons I am looking forward to Javs' assessment and photos. As I noted before I like Sci-Fi films, so I do need the projector to at least be decent with material at .25% (i.e. not necessarily JVC great, but good enough not to be pulled out of the movie and to get a reasonable sense of the image).
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post #505 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 08:13 PM
 
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BenQ LK990

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckgolf View Post
Couldn’t agree more. Especially in regards to our health, we have to be our own advocates. My wife diagnosed herself months before any specialist would listen. They said it was in her head and it wasn’t what she thought. We had to visit the best specialist in our area and he proved her suspicions correct. She’s doing better and I hope you are too.

I would love to hear her story if you and she are willing to share? I would be happy to share mine too if maybe it’s similar, which I suspect it just may be. Shoot me a PM if so. Many heartfelt prayers for her!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
Very important point that sometimes gets forgotten (or assumed) in discussions. I am about to redo my media room and will use black velvet in the front half. 1% APL is a little higher than I would like. Dave suggested the .25% APL image posted was decently reproduced with the LK990 (I realize one person's decent might be another person's inadequate), that is one of the reasons I am looking forward to Javs' assessment and photos. As I noted before I like Sci-Fi films, so I do need the projector to at least be decent with material at .25% (i.e. not necessarily JVC great, but good enough not to be pulled out of the movie and to get a reasonable sense of the image).

If the .25% APL scene you’re referring to is the one from Revenant with the cave and fire by the river at night, I can tell you, at least with MY settings, it was awesome! I can’t see anyone finding it totally unacceptable and pulling you out of the movie. If anything that scene gave me goosebumps and made me get a tingle of excitement when viewed!

It seems everyone is discussing using MadVR, the UB820, a Radiance Pro, etc to tone map, but from my experience, as recent as last night actually, going from using HDR to SDR tone mapping and then sending full HDR to the LK970/990, you can clearly see the overall better and deeper image when using full HDR and my settings. Especially in the darker near black scenes like that cave fire scene. I know everyone’s just going to think it’s me being biased yada yada yada, but I am speaking from truth and my heart so everyone can get the best image possible. I personally think you all owe it to yourselves to at least put forth a strong effort in getting that to work first, with my help if needed before resorting to tone mapping to SDR. It just comes across very differently on these LKs. Maybe it’s their combo of APC dimming and other features that just comes together to make that work better, I don’t know yet.

I feel it’s similar to what we did in Audio when I was in broadcasting. We used Limiters and Compressors to compress and squeeze the full dynamic range of the audio signal down into the bandwidth we had to work with for FM radio. Sure it was the whole signal, but the lows were jacked up higher to be intelligible and the highs were pushed down to not over modulate the carrier and bleed into the adjacent signal. This meant that you didn’t have to mess with your volume control too much either. But when compared to listening to an audio signal’s full dynamic range with the low lows and high highs, it’s no contest! It’s just more realistic, and that’s how I explain the difference between HDR to SDR tone mapped and Full HDR with my Settings. It seems to maintain more of the original HDR signal that way.

To be fair, I haven’t played with MadVR so I can’t say how that compares, but I wanted to throw that out there at least for my findings with tone mapping from the UB820 and some playing with the Radiance Pro, but my whole goal here is to make it as simple and cheap as possible for the layman to get an amazing image, so that means at minimum the LK970/900, an HDFURY, a UHD Blu-ray player and a screen (for video). Having to buy an expensive Radiance, Envy or configure and endlessly tweak MadVR doesn’t fit this scenario, but of course it’s acceptable if that’s what the person wants to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
the thing is most companies can add features via frimware update but they dont so they can sell new products.


All of the LK990 features that the 970 doesnt have can be added via frimware from Native HDR to 3D to having smarteco and arguably the 1000 extra lumens, now the 990 couldve had an Iris but i guess that will be in the LK1000 if that is what they will call it or motorised lens and so on so people keep upgrading.

I think the LK990 has a new mainboard though. It has two extra HDMI ports, an Input 3 and loop out. Those could be just a daughter board I guess, but not sure how they’d implement the output from that if it wasn’t already planned on the 970?

The 990 does have a different feel to it altogether. It’s hard to explain now before any extensive testing. It doesn’t offer the 2.8 gamma that is crucial to my HV settings so now I have to find an alternate route and solution. I thought maybe the DICOM gamma was just 2.8 renamed but it isn’t. It looks like they did away with 2.8 unfortunately and don’t have custom gamma that I know of. I noticed their stock HDR mode uses their “BenQ” gamma, so I tried that myself last night and played with some settings and got it really good and close, but it still needs some tweaking.

I can definitely see why some folks have said what they have about it now, like Dylan and audvid, but I was able to improve that exponentially with a few tips, tweaks and tricks I know. This is what I tried to tell them but got all that closed minded pushback instead of open minded eagerness to go further and learn more instead. Oh well, I need to understand it’s their loss I guess. I just hate others seeing that from someone who doesn’t know it like I do, but acting as if they do.
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Last edited by Dave Harper; 03-30-2019 at 08:27 PM.
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post #506 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
It seems everyone is discussing using MadVR, the UB820, a Radiance Pro, etc to tone map, but from my experience, as recent as last night actually, going from using HDR to SDR tone mapping and then sending full HDR to the LK970/990, you can clearly see the overall better and deeper image when using full HDR and my settings. Especially in the darker near black scenes like that cave fire scene. I know everyone’s just going to think it’s me being biased yada yada yada, but I am speaking from truth and my heart so everyone can get the best image possible. I personally think you all owe it to yourselves to at least put forth a strong effort in getting that to work first, with my help if needed before resorting to tone mapping to SDR. It just comes across very differently on these LKs. Maybe it’s their combo of APC dimming and other features that just comes together to make that work better, I don’t know yet.

I feel it’s similar to what we did in Audio when I was in broadcasting. We used Limiters and Compressors to compress and squeeze the full dynamic range of the audio signal down into the bandwidth we had to work with for FM radio. Sure it was the whole signal, but the lows were jacked up higher to be intelligible and the highs were pushed down to not over modulate the carrier and bleed into the adjacent signal. This meant that you didn’t have to mess with your volume control too much either. But when compared to listening to an audio signal’s full dynamic range with the low lows and high highs, it’s no contest! It’s just more realistic, and that’s how I explain the difference between HDR to SDR tone mapped and Full HDR with my Settings. It seems to maintain more of the original HDR signal that way.

To be fair, I haven’t played with MadVR so I can’t say how that compares, but I wanted to throw that out there at least for my findings with tone mapping from the UB820 and some playing with the Radiance Pro, but my whole goal here is to make it as simple and cheap as possible for the layman to get an amazing image, so that means at minimum the LK970/900, an HDFURY, a UHD Blu-ray player and a screen (for video). Having to buy an expensive Radiance, Envy or configure and endlessly tweak MadVR doesn’t fit this scenario, but of course it’s acceptable if that’s what the person wants to do.

The 990 does have a different feel to it altogether. It’s hard to explain now before any extensive testing. It doesn’t offer the 2.8 gamma that is crucial to my HV settings so now I have to find an alternate route and solution. I thought maybe the DICOM gamma was just 2.8 renamed but it isn’t. It looks like they did away with 2.8 unfortunately and don’t have custom gamma that I know of. I noticed their stock HDR mode uses their “BenQ” gamma, so I tried that myself last night and played with some settings and got it really good and close, but it still needs some tweaking.

I can definitely see why some folks have said what they have about it now, like Dylan and audvid, but I was able to improve that exponentially with a few tips, tweaks and tricks I know. This is what I tried to tell them but got all that closed minded pushback instead of open minded eagerness to go further and learn more instead. Oh well, I need to understand it’s their loss I guess. I just hate others seeing that from someone who doesn’t know it like I do, but acting as if they do.
I’m looking forward to learning how to implement your settings. I have a UB820 And was planning to run it through my Marantz SR7012 along with my NVIDIA Shield and TiVo. Will I need an HDFURY with the LK990 to use your optimal settings? Thanks!
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post #507 of 1021 Old 03-30-2019, 11:07 PM
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LK990 using MAdVR-

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/201903/lk990-madvr/
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post #508 of 1021 Old 03-31-2019, 04:05 AM
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Wow! looks great!!

I cant read Chinese unfortunately but the pictures speak a thousand words!
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post #509 of 1021 Old 03-31-2019, 04:53 AM
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Wow! looks great!!

I cant read Chinese unfortunately but the pictures speak a thousand words!
173" 16:9 Screen...YES!!!!!!!
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post #510 of 1021 Old 03-31-2019, 05:12 AM
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If using a computer is the only way to get a good picture out of the LK990, then screw this product. I think 90% of the people who buy projectors would agree. I wish bit heads would not try to take over every thread. Just my opinion , of course.
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