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post #781 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Its close, I actually believe the BenQ can get closer, but first it requires a very good calibration. If you view those photos full size you will see a considerable difference in sharpness from the projected to the original, I would love to see how much we can close that gap with the BenQ despite it actually still being eshift.

If anybody wants to throw up these images on their projector for a look here are the originals.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iino1txph...E_Pv4-gDa?dl=1
Nice!

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post #782 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Looking forward to your thoughts!

I am hesitant due to the reported RBE with this projector. It's often been said that it affects some people and not others, but what sticks for me is that even if I can't see any, at all - I don't want to invite friends over to watch and then worry about if any of them can see rainbows.

It might rule the projector out for me, but I'm still keen to hear what you make of it.

I've had plenty of family and friends over to watch content using our BenQ W7500. No one has mentioned or complained about RBE. All were very impressed with our home theater including the picture. We watch every day and we are not susceptible to RBE so we're fine. Friends aren't watching every day so I assume it was not an issue for them.

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post #783 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
i dont know who the implication is for when javs say jacking color/sharpness etc.. but the pictures that i took of Jurassic Park was a calibrated 3DLUT/lightspace and then tone mapped with MADVR for 180nits which is the calibrated light output. nothing was added and all settings were stock except (100% white RGB/brightnrss/contrast) which is required to set correctly before doing 3dlut. now of course i m using a phone camera so its overexposing some aspects, nevertheles its by no means cartoonish or whatevr its been called.

Craig posted excellent pictures of black panther of his Z1 in lk970 thread, if anyone can post how the reference pictures should look in those scenes .
It was not aimed squarely at a specific person,

Thanks for letting me know though, if anything it shows the importance of controlled testing if you are going to post pictures without a reference. Its funny when you did post them the thread mostly praised how it looked, but were they looking at your camera phone processing or your actual projector? ... Food for thought I guess.

Now that you told me the specs I know precisely what the reference for that shot looks like, its exactly the one I posted earlier! you have 180 nit peak, that shot only has 107 nits peak, which means since you were completely calibrated to spec you would/should have indeed been looking at precicely the same image I shared earlier.
Because the image is very bright at 180nits, the camera tend to darken it a little, i also like 2.4 gamma instead of 2.2 because i m in a completely controlled room with black velvet so 2.2 feels a little washed up to me and 2.4 looks perfect.
I always try to fiddle with the settings in the camera to get it as close as possible but its still a phone camera at the end of the day, although its not that far off.
We always say when we post pictures its just to give an idea unless someone is using a very high end professional camera.

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post #784 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Desert Pilot View Post
I've had plenty of family and friends over to watch content using our BenQ W7500. No one has mentioned or complained about RBE. All were very impressed with our home theater including the picture. We watch every day and we are not susceptible to RBE so we're fine. Friends aren't watching every day so I assume it was not an issue for them.

Marcus
Hi, the W7500 has a six segment RGBRGB color wheel which helps with RBE. The 970/990 uses an RGBY and is much brighter than the W7500 which explains why some are seeing the RBE.
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post #785 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 08:04 AM
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Thanks for the tips. I actually have done most of these. Raw picture, white balance calibaration, set the camara to faithful mode. And I turned up the shadow detail by 1 or 2 in canon's DPP. Maybe my 5DIII is a little too old to get good screen shots. Its dynamic range is not good comparing the recent Sony and Nikon's flagships.
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You have to disable all colour profiles in the camera and shoot raw preferably also with d6500 white balance or even better throw up a white screen and use that to set a custom white balance in the camera. All Sharpening on zero in the camera, contrast all the way down, saturation a couple notches down.

The only thing I might do in Lightroom is adjust near black to match what I see in person since it often exceeds the camera dynamic range, or add a click of saturation back in since I turned it down in camera, if I do that once I will do it globally for all images equally.
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post #786 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Pilot View Post
I've had plenty of family and friends over to watch content using our BenQ W7500. No one has mentioned or complained about RBE. All were very impressed with our home theater including the picture. We watch every day and we are not susceptible to RBE so we're fine. Friends aren't watching every day so I assume it was not an issue for them.

Marcus
I have owned several DLP's. In fact still have a couple of them. Never saw RBE on any of my Marantz or Planar DLP's I owned, so I thought I was not susceptible to RBE. So I was pretty shocked when I saw RBE on the Wolf single chip laser DLP, being shown in the Seymour AV room at CEDIA. Was in there with Craig and Chris Seymour. All three of us could clearly see them. The movie was Hostiles and every time it showed the dark brown horses running across the bright plains, there would be rainbows on each horse. All this to say, I did not think I was sensitive to RBE either, before seeing the Wolf projector.
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post #787 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Hi, the W7500 has a six segment RGBRGB color wheel which helps with RBE. The 970/990 uses an RGBY and is much brighter than the W7500 which explains why some are seeing the RBE.
I have also noticed more RBE on my LK990!
Yesterday I watched with the Benq W1070 again - and in comparison - it does not show any RBE for me.
And I also guess it is the high lumen that shows an amazing picture on one side and also causes more visible RBE on the other side.
3d was great and without RBE😊

But you will see yourself - I will be happy to read your impression then.
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Hey Johnny, you can ascertain whether or not you see rainbows with the BenQ LK990 when you visit me to check out the various respective projectors. I will make sure I have the LK990 here and set up optimally, including with Dave's Harpervision reommended settings etc...




I have no HarperVision settings for the LK990. Also, do not use the ones for the LK970 on it.
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post #789 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MCU2 View Post
I have also noticed more RBE on my LK990!
Yesterday I watched with the Benq W1070 again - and in comparison - it does not show any RBE for me.
And I also guess it is the high lumen that shows an amazing picture on one side and also causes more visible RBE on the other side.
3d was great and without RBE😊

But you will see yourself - I will be happy to read your impression then.
Completely guessing, but if you dont get RBE during 3d, but do during other content, could it be related to having too much light being shot on screen?

I know you have the projector for the weekend to tweak and fool around with.

Dave himself said that he had banding (and I think rainbows) before he tweaked the settings a bit, but was able to get rid of them.

Or maybe I am mis-remembering.
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post #790 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 12:05 PM
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Agree completely.

VW5000 is ****ing ancient, in respect to how fast technology moves. I need a light cannon, but I am not investing 40,000 in something that old, purely on principle.
I was tempted to buy a Sonyw 5000, "slightly used" in the mid twenties but I am worried that it is already 3 year old technology! Essentially, the lcos chipset is very close to the Vw1000, from about what, 6 years ago? A member who replaced his Vw1000 with 5000 told me that he really could not tell much of a difference, if any, between the two except obviously the light output of 5000.

Are you saying that the vw5000 is too old of a technology to buy now? I have never seen a vw5000. I would like to hear from people who have seen the vw5000 and the BenQ 970/990.
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post #791 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
Completely guessing, but if you dont get RBE during 3d, but do during other content, could it be related to having too much light being shot on screen?

I know you have the projector for the weekend to tweak and fool around with.

Dave himself said that he had banding (and I think rainbows) before he tweaked the settings a bit, but was able to get rid of them.

Or maybe I am mis-remembering.
With 3D engaged I use the full power output, I may try to watch some content without the glasses.
If I can stand it. ;-)
If I do not see rainbows, it must be something different. 3D does not use shifting i.e..
And if I do see the RBE it is a hint to reduce the light output with 2D

I have time tomorrow evening so I will have a look at it.
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post #792 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 12:42 PM
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I was tempted to buy a Sonyw 5000, "slightly used" in the mid twenties but I am worried that it is already 3 year old technology! Essentially, the lcos chipset is very close to the Vw1000, from about what, 6 years ago? A member who replaced his Vw1000 with 5000 told me that he really could not tell much of a difference, if any, between the two except obviously the light output of 5000.

Are you saying that the vw5000 is too old of a technology to buy now? I have never seen a vw5000. I would like to hear from people who have seen the vw5000 and the BenQ 970/990.
I am 100% sure the VW5000 throws a stunning picture.

My problem is spending almost 40k (brand new) on a projector that is now 3+ years old

Tech improves so fast, and I am just never comfortable spending that much on something that old.

I know I am going to 100% risk triggering some members who rock high end systems/projectors, but in MY current situation I am kinda stuck between either the VW5000 or the BenQs.

I feel like the Sony Vw5000 was a 40,000 projector 3 years ago, but other companies/projectors have narrowed the gap a bit in that time, which is why I struggle to pay for the old 40k projector vs a new 7k projector. - I have a 140" wide scope screen, and my screen is only .8 gain. If I want UHD, I need a light canon, even in my light controlled room.-
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post #793 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 01:16 PM
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Why is what I do such a threat to you folks??? Why can’t this be FUN for Christ’s Sake........GOD you people literally drive me INSANE!!!!
You simply have to look inwards. You need to understand how much you drive us crazy by making the claim that the fake looking images (too bright, too saturated, too much false contrast, wrong gamma, etc) look better. They don't look better, as in they do not objectively look better. You can say that they look better for your preference, but to many of us others they look vastly worse. It's entirely subjective. It's a simple fact that you need to understand. Only once you understand that then you will understand why we say what we say.

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post #794 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
You simply have to look inwards. You need to understand how much you drive us crazy by making the claim that the fake looking images (too bright, too saturated, too much false contrast, wrong gamma, etc) look better. They don't look better, as in they do not objectively look better. You can say that they look better for your preference, but to many of us others they look vastly worse. It's entirely subjective. It's a simple fact that you need to understand. Only once you understand that then you will understand why we say what we say.
EDIT: Ahhhhh never mind. It’s not worth it. Enjoy your thread guys.

There’s an ignore feature and you have every right to use it. Don’t read my posts then.

Last edited by Dave Harper; 04-06-2019 at 01:27 PM.
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Please show me where I ever said the overcooked phone images posted on here “looked better”? If you mean because I clicked the like icon on some, that’s because I personally KNOW what the image looks like in person compared to the image here if my settings are done correctly. Do you?

There’s an ignore feature and you have every right to use it. Don’t read my posts then.
No. I'm saying your harpervision settings look vastly worse than reference to me, that's all. It's my opinion and there are certainly many who share it. You never seem to be willing to admit that to some people they do look terrible.

And I did go see an LK970 vs. NX5 set up side by side, and no matter what settings we used on the LK970 I still preferred the image from the NX5. The only time the LK970 looks better to me is on a massive screen that needs the lumens, and even then RBE kills the experience, but that is a separate issue that doesn't necessarily matter to everyone.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the people who do like the LK970 image more. But please stop saying that we who prefer the image from a JVC or Sony more are "elite" or something. We aren't, we just have difference preferences for picture.

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post #796 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 01:32 PM
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No. I'm saying your harpervision settings look vastly worse than reference to me, that's all. It's my opinion and there are certainly many who share it. You never seem to be willing to admit that to some people they do look terrible.



And I did go see an LK970 vs. NX5 set up side by side, and no matter what settings we used on the LK970 I still preferred the image from the NX5. The only time the LK970 looks better to me is on a massive screen that needs the lumens, and even then RBE kills the experience, but that is a separate issue that doesn't necessarily matter to everyone.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the people who do like the LK970 image more. But please stop saying that we who prefer the image from a JVC or Sony more are "elite" or something. We aren't, we just have difference preferences for picture.

Yep, ignorance is bliss. Enjoy the NX5, it’s a great machine too.

The Elite comments had absolutely nothing to do with whether you liked a Sony or JVC better. I’ve had and calibrated them all. Try to keep up.
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post #797 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 01:38 PM
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Yep, ignorance is bliss. Enjoy the NX5, it’s a great machine too.
For what it's worth I think that it's great that you are helping people find settings that will look great for them.

I just wish you wouldn't talk down to and call people "elites", the people who say they prefer the image of a JVC more because of how it looks better to them in darker scenes or an image that is closer to reference calibration. There is nothing elite about that, it's just a personal preference.
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post #798 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Hi, the W7500 has a six segment RGBRGB color wheel which helps with RBE. The 970/990 uses an RGBY and is much brighter than the W7500 which explains why some are seeing the RBE.
It really does help...still, I had the W7000 and W6000 which had the same segments and still saw some RBE at times. The Optoma UHZ65 (laser) had an RGBY wheel, but it might be a slower speed than the wheel on these LKs. I even saw a little RBE on the Vivitek H9090 (LED) and on the BenQ HT9050 XPR (HLD LED).

The only DLP projectors (which I've viewed so far) where I did not/do not recall seeing RBE are the new BenQ HT9060 (HLD LED) and Runco LS-5. I haven't seen the LK970/990 in person yet.
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post #799 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 01:53 PM
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For what it's worth I think that it's great that you are helping people find settings that will look great for them.



I just wish you wouldn't talk down to and call people "elites", the people who say they prefer the image of a JVC more because of how it looks better to them in darker scenes or an image that is closer to reference calibration. There is nothing elite about that, it's just a personal preference.

I already said that’s not what or why I said that. I’m not going to rehash the reasons why here again. All you need to do is go back in history and read fully for complete understanding.
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post #800 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Hi, the W7500 has a six segment RGBRGB color wheel which helps with RBE. The 970/990 uses an RGBY and is much brighter than the W7500 which explains why some are seeing the RBE.
Seems so, I see rbe on the 990 but on the 5550 (W5700) I see none at all using the same material.
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Seems so, I see rbe on the 990 but on the 5550 (W5700) I see none at all using the same material.
The W7000 even had a Dynamic mode that when turned on would speed up the color wheel to 6x. Unfortunately, it was a little bit too green and even after calibration was a bit difficult.
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post #802 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 02:33 PM
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I’m not disagreeing.

But the options between selling a RS4500 or nothing (when in regards to the 5000ES) seems like an easy choice.

I have owned tons of projectors of just about every make and model from $5000 to over $100k.

Just as Craig and others have often said, he can’t watch a movie on a 65-75” flat screen and get a true “home theater” experience. Well I have often felt that way about any screen below about 135-150”.

So when my choices years ago was a 1080p Sony or JVC with 1000 lumens or less and a 1080p 3 chip DPI Titan with 5000 lumens, the answer was easy. Size was king and still is. Thankfully the Sony 5000ES came along with 5x the native contrast of my two 4K Barco DCI projectors.

I have multiple projection systems. I have a 5000ES on both a 14’ wide and another 5000ES on a 17’ wide screen and I just upgraded my RS600 for a RS2000 on my small 120” master bedroom projection system.

But there is a reason why myself and many ultra-high end home theater guys like Art Sonneborn, LJG, Etc all used 3 chip DLP projectors prior to moving to the 5000ES. Because having a projector that could adequately light up a 14-18’ wide screen even with lower native contrast was a far more immersive home theater experience than watching a movie on a 100” screen with a higher native contrast image.

I think that why so many people are enthusiastic about this BenQ. People are moving to larger and larger screen sizes for that true home “theater” experience.

And until the day we can have 5000 lumen projectors with infinite contrast, compromises will still have to be made.





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Fantastic post. Best of the whole thread.
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post #803 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
You...drive us crazy by making the claim that the fake looking images (too bright, too saturated, too much false contrast, wrong gamma, etc) look better. They don't look better, as in they do not objectively look better. You can say that they look better for your preference, but to many of us others they look vastly worse.
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No. I'm saying your harpervision settings look vastly worse than reference to me, that's all. It's my opinion and there are certainly many who share it...There's absolutely nothing wrong with the people who do like the LK970 image more.
Here is the problem, there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty in the comments made by a number of posters. You clearly state that preferences are a personal opinion, yet many times individuals are criticized as having poor experience and/or poor taste when the prefer the LK projectors. Look at your comments, you state that the images of the LK are objectively "too bright, too saturated, too much false contrast, wrong gamma, etc", thus by implication they are objectively poor. But Dave's argument is reminiscent of the argument made in audio, you can have a flat frequency response at the sitting position/speaker, or you can use a house curve that has sloping curve that drops the high frequencies over a couple of octaves.

We know from tens of thousands of hours of research by Harman and the like that there are certain house curves that are preferred by most listeners with good hearing (please not I'm not referring to the mythical golden eared listeners). Now, one could sit and argue how moving from an objectively flat curve (even if it is at the speaker position) is anathema to pursuing the intent of the artists or recording engineers, or one could accept that we generally have preferences reflecting the Harman curve.

Now, I am not trying to suggest that Harper's "curve" would be generally preferred by most of the general public; however, I am suggesting that a preference for the Harper "curve" is not necessarily a reflection of people having a preference for images that are "too bright, too saturated, too much false contrast, wrong gamma, etc", but rather Harper's "curve" may be consistent with a visual preference many people hold...or it could be that they have bad taste. My guess, like audio, visual reproduction requires us to make compromises, and we have groups of people who believe that compromises must all from an "original point of creation", on/off CR.
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post #804 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 05:15 PM
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EDIT: Ahhhhh never mind. It’s not worth it. Enjoy your thread guys.

There’s an ignore feature and you have every right to use it. Don’t read my posts then.
Please don’t drop off the thread, Dave. For those of us with the LK’s or at least for me, I am very interested in hearing what you have to say. My goal is to get the most out of my new LK. You seem to share that goal, I think others share it as well. So don’t let anybody dissuade you.

Unfortunately I have to wait another week before I will be up and running but everything is here. Screen projector everything. I can’t believe how patient I am being.
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post #805 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MCU2 View Post
Hallo Javs,


as you are using an HTPC and MadVr.

I would just know how are your basic settings playing UHD HDR content?

With Windows 10 and Nvidia graphics card and madvr?


I found this interesting thread at another forum:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comm..._hdr_question/

So Win10 desktop HDR on or off?

Nvidia RGB 10bit? 0-255 ?

madvr 16-255 or ?


Thank you!
Grab a build that supports dynamic frame measurements without measurement files. I still use build 45. Then look for neoxp's settings for that build.
Windows 10 HDR should be off. You're not sending HDR to the projector.
I use Nvidia RGB 8bit. 0-255. 8 bit works great with dithering there's never any banding etc.
In madVR I use 0-255.
In my projector I use 0-255 setting (or just auto).
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post #806 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 05:54 PM
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If you look at Javs' signature, he has a link to his MadVR settings. It looks like it was last updated in Oct 2018, but some of the screenshots were from an earlier version. I followed his setup since i have a similar projector... your settings may differ a bit since the 990 is a light cannon.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post49913417

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCU2 View Post
Hallo Javs,


as you are using an HTPC and MadVr.

I would just know how are your basic settings playing UHD HDR content?

With Windows 10 and Nvidia graphics card and madvr?


I found this interesting thread at another forum:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comm..._hdr_question/

So Win10 desktop HDR on or off?

Nvidia RGB 10bit? 0-255 ?

madvr 16-255 or ?


Thank you!
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post #807 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 06:36 PM
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First off we definitely need to know how well this projector can reproduce the image AS intended. If you prefer something else that's fine you can always change them but if sub 2k projectors can pull this off then it shouldn't be too much to ask of a 13k MSRP projector.

Looking at JAVS images they look absolutely perfect, so I took some pics to compare and it's clear my projector is not calibrated as well as his BUT mostly thats because I set mine up for a more contrasty brighter dynamic look and i'm willing to sacrifice some accuracy.

However if your colors start out nuclear they will only get worse as you change to your preference with more brightness and punch which is why accurate colors are an important baseline before dialing in your preferences.
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post #808 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
First off we definitely need to know how well this projector can reproduce the image AS intended. If you prefer something else that's fine you can always change them but if sub 2k projectors can pull this off then it shouldn't be too much to ask of a 13k MSRP projector.

Looking at JAVS images they look absolutely perfect, so I took some pics to compare and it's clear my projector is not calibrated as well as his BUT mostly thats because I set mine up for a more contrasty brighter dynamic look and i'm willing to sacrifice some accuracy.

However if your colors start out nuclear they will only get worse as you change to your preference with more brightness and punch which is why accurate colors are an important baseline before dialing in your preferences.
THATS more like it. Looks very natural and detailed.

Well done.

p.s. The images I shared of Jurassic Park are actually frames pulled directly from the file. We will see next week how I can get them to look on the LK.

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post #809 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 07:14 PM
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@dave , please don’t leave us behind, greatly appreciate your efforts to help others. Frankly I ordered a 990 with some confidence that you’d be able to provide some guidance in setup. I doubt my local installer is going to do a great job as he’s never even seen these projectors. I also was very hopeful by your positive comments on progress with the HDR in place, was a little disappointed you may be moving back to stripping it. Hope you still can find a good setting with the HDR in place.
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post #810 of 948 Old 04-06-2019, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
First off we definitely need to know how well this projector can reproduce the image AS intended. If you prefer something else that's fine you can always change them but if sub 2k projectors can pull this off then it shouldn't be too much to ask of a 13k MSRP projector.

Looking at JAVS images they look absolutely perfect, so I took some pics to compare and it's clear my projector is not calibrated as well as his BUT mostly thats because I set mine up for a more contrasty brighter dynamic look and i'm willing to sacrifice some accuracy.

However if your colors start out nuclear they will only get worse as you change to your preference with more brightness and punch which is why accurate colors are an important baseline before dialing in your preferences.
This the 970 or 990?
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