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post #841 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
How did Nolan actually screw it up? Was it the inaccurate over saturated colours?
See for yourself... Insanely lifted black levels, no contrast anymore, colours look bad. Did you know Christopher Nolan is colour blind too?

Apart from the video, the soundtrack is ruined, the actual film had a ton of dirt and scratches on it purposefully left there (why?)


As for the excellent UHD version:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/item/2...odyssey-uhd-bd
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post #842 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The picture is shot in the jungle and it is so bright in both of them, to the point it looks as bright as being on a sunny beach.
As bright as being on a sunny beach? With erupting volcanoes blocking the sunlight perhaps.. But honestly, you would only know this by seeing the movie still Javs posted a bit further back... Otherwise your eyes would simply accept what it's seeing because we have no idea how much light or dark is in the actual area being filmed. How can we know this? We can't, it's only when we have reference points to work off do we know.
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post #843 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
See for yourself... Insanely lifted black levels, no contrast anymore, colours look bad. Did you know Christopher Nolan is colour blind too?

Apart from the video, the soundtrack is ruined, the actual film had a ton of dirt and scratches on it purposefully left there (why?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1JIkK7-fUI

As for the excellent UHD version:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/item/2...odyssey-uhd-bd
Wow, yeah, show a film faded by half a century of entropy and say that is how it was 'intended'...… I will take the colour accurate version thanks!

I am not sure how anyone who is colour blind can ever make a film for the masses, as anyone who has looked at the charts will know!
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post #844 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Wow, yeah, show a film faded by half a century of entropy and say that is how it was 'intended'...… I will take the colour accurate version thanks!

I am not sure how anyone who is colour blind can ever make a film for the masses, as anyone who has looked at the charts will know!
Colour blind? WOW I did not know that. I've never looked at what films he's done, but surely he's got help? What are they doing when it's so far removed from the original?
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post #845 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 04:01 PM
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Red-Green colour blind specifically

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post #846 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
Colour blind? WOW I did not know that. I've never looked at what films he's done, but surely he's got help? What are they doing when it's so far removed from the original?

You never looked at what films hes done? Where you been?

Dunkrik
The Dark Knight Trilogy
Interstellar
Inception
The Prestige
Insomnia
Momento

One thing common about the above films, LOTS of Blue in them, not much Red and Green...

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post #847 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You never looked at what films hes done? Where you been?

Dunkrik
The Dark Knight Trilogy
Interstellar
Inception
The Prestige
Insomnia
Momento

One thing common about the above films, LOTS of Blue in them, not much Red and Green...


Well I've seen them all but I don't normally note who does what.
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post #848 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
Well the 990 has a place no doubt, business partner of mine is building a home theater room with 150 inch 16x9 screen for sports and movies. I see nothing on the market that can light that screen with authority other than the 50k sony or this LQ990, he could easily afford the sony but said no way to that price.

The two quotes he got from his dealer had either the sony 695es or 885es, neither bright enough in my opinion so i talked him into this one, now ill finally get to see one
I don't agree with this. My RS4500 lights up my 135" with authority. In fact, I usually run it in low laser. In mid laser, where I run my games and HDR movies, it's still over 30FL. With proper tone mapping that's more than bright enough. 150 over 135 isn't that much difference.
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post #849 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
See for yourself... Insanely lifted black levels, no contrast anymore, colours look bad. Did you know Christopher Nolan is colour blind too?

Apart from the video, the soundtrack is ruined, the actual film had a ton of dirt and scratches on it purposefully left there (why?)



As for the excellent UHD version:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/item/2...odyssey-uhd-bd
Wow that's ridiculous.
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post #850 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 05:11 PM
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LK990 purchase. As with all large $$$ purchases, the weekend had some anxiety over purchasing this projector. Shipping is estimated as April 13th. I probably still have time to cancel. The two big negatives are banding (I hope isolated to a particular batch) which should be easily repaired if I get one and RBE which I have never had a problem with in the past. The positives are many and I am glad to read several posts by folks who really like their projector. Interesting that BenQ website puts a lot of space about the superb lens on the LK970 but makes no mention of it with the LK990. I am not a very critical consumer. If I get a good 4K picture out of the box, I am happy. Sure I will tweak settings but a good picture out of the box will be rewarding. All content comes off my Home Theater Computer. J River Media center does have MadVR (latest version too). So, I think I can tweak.

I super appreciate everyone's input and results.

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post #851 of 948 Old 04-07-2019, 11:42 PM
 
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I just remembered something from my time with the Optoma UHZ65. I recall seeing bad banding with it, similar to what’s been reported here. The only thing that remedied it on the UHZ65 was to send 4:4:4 and 10 or 12 bit color. Normally it’s just the bit depth that affects and causes banding, but only changing that in this instance didn’t rectify the issue. The ONLY thing that did was sending 4:4:4. It must be a bug in its input stage and/or processing or something. Maybe it’s from TI related to this .67” XPR DLP chip, idk.

It may be worth it for those that see banding on their LK990s to try sending 4:4:4 10/12 bit and see if the banding goes away as it did with the UHZ65. I don’t recall seeing any on mine. I’ll try to check tonight.
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post #852 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 12:45 AM
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The photo took before return the LK990, BenQ said someone messed the setting of the color wheel, they said LK990 go normal after their factory reset. The problem is I never go into the factory mode since I received it, I have no idea who messed the setting of color wheel.
On the other hand, I am now using the cheapest entry level HT3550 (W2700) and I have to say it handle HDR tone mapping is much better than LK990 does (not related to the color wheel issues).
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post #853 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
The photo took before return the LK990, BenQ said someone messed the setting of the color wheel, they said LK990 go normal after their factory reset. The problem is I never go into the factory mode since I received it, I have no idea who messed the setting of color wheel.
On the other hand, I am now using the cheapest entry level HT3550 (W2700) and I have to say it handle HDR tone mapping is much better than LK990 does (not related to the color wheel issues).
These LK990 photos are looking similar but worse than mine.
It is a pitty you did not test with a gray ramp pattern. So I can just asume it would have had also cyan stripes in it and I think also much more than my unit showed.
Beside that I think your comparison ist not fair. You can not compare a defective unit with a device that works properly.


That is why I will not post more pics of my unit until it is fixed. It will just scare customers - and til now I do not think the LK990 deserves this.


I am not a technician and do not know what is the specific problem with my LK990, but I do know it has nothing to do with the Color Management.
All Colors also the test patterns with Color Steps are looking good.

Everytime my unit has to show any color gradient (black to white, or green to white or brown to white) it shows the cyan stripes.

Two weird things: Shows the test pattern horizontal gradient the cyan stripes are even horizontal, with vertical gradient the stripes are even vertical!
If I try to get rid of them adjusting the contrast they move with lower contrast to the left and with higher contrast to the right. With moving they get thinner and wider from time to time, but never disappear completely.
And as they can appear and disapear anywhere on the screen, this causes IMHO the problems with banding and not showing color accuracy.



So hopefully I get this week the RMA to send the unit to BenQ.
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post #854 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 01:21 AM
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Actually I had watched a normal LK990 without color wheel issues in dealer shop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCU2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
The photo took before return the LK990, BenQ said someone messed the setting of the color wheel, they said LK990 go normal after their factory reset. The problem is I never go into the factory mode since I received it, I have no idea who messed the setting of color wheel.
On the other hand, I am now using the cheapest entry level HT3550 (W2700) and I have to say it handle HDR tone mapping is much better than LK990 does (not related to the color wheel issues).
These LK990 photos are looking similar but worse than mine.
It is a pitty you did not test with a gray ramp pattern. So I can just asume it would have had also cyan stripes in it and I think also much more than my unit showed.
Beside that I think your comparison ist not fair. You can not compare a defective unit with a device that works properly.


That is why I will not post more pics of my unit until it is fixed. It will just scare customers - and til now I do not think the LK990 deserves this.


I am not a technician and do not know what is the specific problem with my LK990, but I do know it has nothing to do with the Color Management.
All Colors also the test patterns with Color Steps are looking good.

Just as the my unit has to show any color gradient (black to white, or green to white or brown to white) it shows the cyan stripes.

Two weird things: Shows the test pattern horizontal gradient the cyan stripes are even horizontal, with vertical gradient the stripes are even vertical!
If I try to get rid of them adjusting the contrast the move with lower contrast to the left and with higher contrast to the right. With moving the get thinner and wider from time to time, but never disappear completly.
And as they can appear and disapear anywhere on the screen, this causes IMHO the problems with banding and not showing color accuracy.



So hopefully I get this week the RMA to send the unit to BenQ.

Anthony Chan
AV Blog: http://www.avnewbie.com
System: 5.3.4
Panasonic DMP-UB900EBK, Egreat A5, Anthem AVM60, Krell KAV2250 X 2, Theater Amplifier Standard, M&K S-150 X 5, SS150 X 4, Martin Logan Descent-i and Thiel SS 2, SS2.2 and SI 1 Integrator, Benq HT1075, JK 126" Fixed Screen N4-FL/W1
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post #855 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I just remembered something from my time with the Optoma UHZ65. I recall seeing bad banding with it, similar to what’s been reported here. The only thing that remedied it on the UHZ65 was to send 4:4:4 and 10 or 12 bit color. Normally it’s just the bit depth that affects and causes banding, but only changing that in this instance didn’t rectify the issue. The ONLY thing that did was sending 4:4:4. It must be a bug in its input stage and/or processing or something. Maybe it’s from TI related to this .67” XPR DLP chip, idk.

It may be worth it for those that see banding on their LK990s to try sending 4:4:4 10/12 bit and see if the banding goes away as it did with the UHZ65. I don’t recall seeing any on mine. I’ll try to check tonight.
Dave, when you say banding, you mean posterization right? Which is normally sorted by changing your settings to 4:4:4 like you say.
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post #856 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Red-Green colour blind specifically
That would explain the preponderance of yellow!

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post #857 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
BenQ said someone messed the setting of the color wheel, they said LK990 go normal after their factory reset.
Did anyone get a definitive answer on the color wheel speed?

Anyway, I'm glad this thread is getting back on track. It was starting to remind me of that old joke ... "I went to watch a boxing match but a hockey game broke out."
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post #858 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I just remembered something from my time with the Optoma UHZ65. I recall seeing bad banding with it, similar to what’s been reported here. The only thing that remedied it on the UHZ65 was to send 4:4:4 and 10 or 12 bit color. Normally it’s just the bit depth that affects and causes banding, but only changing that in this instance didn’t rectify the issue. The ONLY thing that did was sending 4:4:4. It must be a bug in its input stage and/or processing or something. Maybe it’s from TI related to this .67” XPR DLP chip, idk.

It may be worth it for those that see banding on their LK990s to try sending 4:4:4 10/12 bit and see if the banding goes away as it did with the UHZ65. I don’t recall seeing any on mine. I’ll try to check tonight.
What do you think about going with a LK970 over the 990 at this point?

You lose some performance in dark scenes, but more seems to be worked out in that projector?
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post #859 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 11:38 AM
 
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BenQ LK990

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
What do you think about going with a LK970 over the 990 at this point?



You lose some performance in dark scenes, but more seems to be worked out in that projector?

Too early to tell. They’re too different and I haven’t had the time to dial in the LK990 (yes, more than just a one day reference only calibration).

I answered this in more detail in response to @tnaik4 a day or so ago. It’s either here or in the LK970 thread. I’ll try to find a link.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
Dave, when you say banding, you mean posterization right? Which is normally sorted by changing your settings to 4:4:4 like you say.

I don’t believe so. Here are the images and link that explains what I saw and did to alleviate it on the UHZ65. It was worse in person:

At 4:2:2


At 4:4:4


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55505854


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Did anyone get a definitive answer on the color wheel speed?



Anyway, I'm glad this thread is getting back on track. It was starting to remind me of that old joke ... "I went to watch a boxing match but a hockey game broke out."

I believe @sage11x and @Ruined have gotten more definitive info on that subject. I think it was equivalent to a 5X wheel they said.
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post #860 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't agree with this. My RS4500 lights up my 135" with authority. In fact, I usually run it in low laser. In mid laser, where I run my games and HDR movies, it's still over 30FL. With proper tone mapping that's more than bright enough. 150 over 135 isn't that much difference.

I saw the RS4500 on a 1.0 gain ST100 running max, it was far from acceptable for HDR and I mean far , I doubt it made what has been suggested as a minimum, 29FL ( 100nits) and that was running maximum. For SDR content any of the laser projectors would do on 150" 1.0 gain, but considering most watch HDR , that's now the bencmark everyone strives to achieve. For acceptable HDR minimum is 50-60FL , 30fl is just not even close , even with dynamic tone mapping . Why was the new Christie demoed have 500nits on a 20ft screen , and why would Joe Silva ( THX) have a setup with 400 nits ? @*Mori* has 200 nits, I have the same on my screen, Art with his VW5000 double stack also hits 70FL ( 250nits) and for good reason , it's what it takes to make it look right for the spectral highlights and still maintain decent values throughout.



If the RS4500 could have even come close I would have one hanging in my theater today, it was far from adequate on a 150" screen. For the RS4500 to yield descent HDR I realized it could not go on a screen larger than 140" diagonal, would have to be mounted short throw, the screen gain would have to be minimum 1.3 and anamorphic lens absolutely necessary. In this configuration and running on high it will hit descent levels for HDR . Running on high requires a hush box, additional cooling and ventilation, cannot be avoided with this projector . One more thing, running on high laser means native contrast drops to 8500:1 , certainly not best performance territory , exactly why the vast majority the RS4500 on a 130" range screen. Combined with a anamorphic lens you can run mid laser where noise is acceptable and contrast is better , you get best performance and it's acceptable on the ears , until the theater warms up , you'll still need cooling .



The LK990 has the lumens to light up a 150" 1.0 gain with authority from long throw running 75% laser, there is the big advantage it has , I can only assume at 75% and with liquid cooling, it will be acceptable for noise levels too . It's the reason this projector is on my list at this time, along with the VW5000 both have the ability without needing all kinds of additional help to make it work . WIth either of these I can run a reference level 1.0 gain screen , no compromise necessary. I'll yield 60FL (200nits) adding anamorphic lens I'll pop to around 80 FL ( 280 nits) and btw this is for a 150" diagonal 1.0 gain.
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post #861 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Too early to tell. They’re too different and I haven’t had the time to dial in the LK990 (yes, more than just a one day reference only calibration).

I answered this in more detail in response to @tnaik4 a day or so ago. It’s either here or in the LK970 thread. I’ll try to find a link.







I believe @sage11x and @Ruined have gotten more definitive info on that subject. I think it was equivalent to a 5X wheel they said.
Ya it was on the 970 thread I think, your response to Tnaik4 when he asked if you thought it was worth the $2000 to upgrade from the 970 to the 990.

And you said basically it was different and new enough that it might not be a smooth transition and probably not worth it.

I still have a couple weeks before I NEED to make a decision/purchase, so I will be watching the forums for sure on any new breakthroughs and more opinions on the 990 as we get them.

The 970 just seems like it might be a "safer" choice until the 990's problems get ironed out. But after watching the JVC N Series thread/launch, this is definitely not an isolated BenQ thing, every company seems to have some issues with their new projectors currently, just part of growing pains in new tech.

Also I am checking what the overall price difference between the 990 and 970 is when starting fresh, as I dont have either currently like Tnaik4 does.
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post #862 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 02:59 PM
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The 970 is 12999 in the USA and 12999 in Australia. BenQ have matched US pricing in Australia which means dealers don't have anywhere near the same margins as those in the USA. That's why. Our dollar is 70 cents US so that machine 'should be' $18,570. BenQ in Australia don't get special 'aussie dollar pricing' they pay the same if not MORE as we don't have the buying power of the USA. I think the 990 is 1K more, but should be 20K, but it's not, it's @14999 aud. Anyhow no price talk, I'm talking relative to our dollar's value where they should be vs where they are priced at. I hope that explains things.
Thanks for that. I have found street pricing in the US to be about 25% less than street pricing here in Australia including delivery and GST. Obviously there is a risk as the unit will need to be sent back in the unfortunate case of needing a warranty repair.
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post #863 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 04:23 PM
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. For acceptable HDR minimum is 50-60FL , 30fl is just not even close , even with dynamic tone mapping . Why was the new Christie demoed have 500nits on a 20ft screen , and why would Joe Silva ( THX) have a setup with 400 nits ?
30ftl is more than acceptable for HDR. Kris Deering says HDR is not meant to be a brighter format but a more dynamic format, and that 90% of HDR is in the SDR range. With proper tone mapping for the spectral highlights the images should have similar brightness.

For projectors, great HDR is about high contrast and enough brightness to do some tone mapping. It’s not about chasing brightness like the flat panels have. I’m guilty of that. I sold my RS500 and bought the LK990 in hopes of it being this HDR monster with all its brightness. It wasn’t... not by a long shot. I’m back to JVC now with an RS2000 not because I’m brainwashed, or someone on the internet convinced me, but from seeing both with my own eyes in my own room. I’m probably @ 21ftl and it’s wonderful with HDR. I’ve done my due diligence. It was a fun experiment. Now I don’t have to wonder if I need more brightness. I don’t
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30ftl is more than acceptable for HDR. Kris Deering says HDR is not meant to be a brighter format but a more dynamic format, and that 90% of HDR is in the SDR range. With proper tone mapping for the spectral highlights the images should have similar brightness.

For projectors, great HDR is about high contrast and enough brightness to do some tone mapping. It’s not about chasing brightness like the flat panels have. I’m guilty of that. I sold my RS500 and bought the LK990 in hopes of it being this HDR monster with all its brightness. It wasn’t... not by a long shot. I’m back to JVC now with an RS2000 not because I’m brainwashed, or someone on the internet convinced me, but from seeing both with my own eyes in my own room. I’m probably @ 21ftl and it’s wonderful with HDR. I’ve done my due diligence. It was a fun experiment. Now I don’t have to wonder if I need more brightness. I don’t
Here here.

True Dynamic tone mapping has changed everything for the better. Those who have seen it and use it will never say you NEED 50-60fl that's total BS.

If you use static curves, then yes, maybe you need closer to 60fl to really make it work. Because static curves are archaic, They are only ever set for the very brightest pixel in the film in advance. Which is fleeting, it could be 3 pixels inside a single light bulb in only one scene in the movie for a few seconds and then its over. We know the true representation is an order of magnitude lower, we even use Dynamic Clipping now to actually clip something like the top 0.01% of the brightest pixels in every frame, since they are pretty much always trash pixels, not necessary, and all they do is pull down the available contrast in the image if you just discard them. Bin those few pixels inside the very center of a light bulb and you end up with a far brighter, much more dynamic image.

No, you do NOT need 60fl to make HDR work, you need excellent dynamic tone mapping. And that's based on a good year of hardcore HDR development in the MadVR thread if anybody has been following, testing every variation possible on how to get the very best from HDR, and here we are, and its friggen glorious!

Right now, only MadVR and the very latest Lumagen update has it. I dont think Roxie even has a theatre for the past number of months, so if he has not seen it, he really should reserve judgement until he does as it is going to completely recalibrate his brain when his jaw hits the floor. Is it going to be improved with 60fl? Sure, but if you know anything about how it actually works, MOST of what you look at will be the same brightness from 0-30fl anyway, and you can even probably go 1/3rd of a film depending on what you watch before it gets any brighter.

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post #865 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 05:13 PM
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Even with a static curve, 45 foot lamberts is bright ! With the dynamic curves though, like you say Javs, everything has changed !
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post #866 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 05:46 PM
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Will the RS4500 light up 150 inch with authority , 20 foot throw with ambient light when watching sports? This won’t be a bat cave.

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I really don't care to read all this debate about how you don't need much brightness yada yada yada to get the best HDR. I swear it seems like every other post here, in a round about way, is intentionally trying to discourage potential buyers of the LK970/990. You know good and well that the main selling point of this projector IS for it's HIGH brightness among other things. And I'm so sick of seeing JVC this, JVC that, JVC model this, please take it somewhere else.


Have a lovely day
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In your setup, I would say it would be marginal. In a bat cave watching movies it would be more than fine. The room and content make a big difference on how much light is needed and what is acceptable. Always try to find the right projector that is fit for your environment and content. In a well designed dark room HDR is fine with dynamic tone mapping at as low as 20fl. With that being said I have 110fl in a game room with the LK970 and HDR is outstanding and preferred by the wife and kids. I run about 30-35 fl with my sony 1100 in the dedicated theater and HDR is still great.






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Will the RS4500 light up 150 inch with authority , 20 foot throw with ambient light when watching sports? This won’t be a bat cave.

Last edited by 12GAGE; 04-08-2019 at 06:47 PM.
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post #869 of 948 Old 04-08-2019, 06:46 PM
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I really don't care to read all this debate about how you don't need much brightness yada yada yada to get the best HDR. I swear it seems like every other post here, in a round about way, is intentionally trying to discourage potential buyers of the LK970/990. You know good and well that the main selling point of this projector IS for it's HIGH brightness among other things. And I'm so sick of seeing JVC this, JVC that, JVC model this, please take it somewhere else.

Have a lovely day
Brightness is relative though. If you have the LK990, and you have a 180" screen, and accept that 30fl is more than enough for HDR, then this projector and the brightness output that it does have may enable you to hit that light output very comfortably, vs another brand which cannot have a hope in hell.

To categorically state that you NEED 50-60fl is just not the case though. That would require 6000 calibrated lumens on a 180" 1.0 gain screen. Almost no projector on earth will do that. Not even this one.

That has nothing to do with the lumen output on a projector. The marriage between lumen output, screen size and throw does. This projector enables you to be far more lenient on your screen size choices. That is actually a highly positive aspect about it.
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Quote:
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Will the RS4500 light up 150 inch with authority , 20 foot throw with ambient light when watching sports? This won’t be a bat cave.
I did not see what screen you are talking about, but a 1.1 gain screen and you would get a max of 44FL. With 1.0 gain, you would be looking at 36/37FL.
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