BenQ LK990 Owners Thread - Page 26 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #751 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 05:30 PM
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Just chiming in here. I am a 970 owner and I primarily use Dynamic Tone Mapping with MadVR. Personally, it is easily superior to any static mapping settings I have used. I have used Dave settings and I understand what he was shooting for with his settings and in lieu of not having anything better they work well. I think the issue with Dave is that he didn’t see dynamic mapping. It is a game changer in my opinion.


Obviously, Dave’s settings don’t make or break the unit but they are good. Especially as a starting point.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Recall that the LK990 has Smarteco dimming but the LK970 doesn't.
They have some improvements to do as I posted earlier, hopefully drop in the new native 4K DMD in the future, eradicate rainbows, and they have a pretty solid machine.

Dimming enables was an absolute MUST on the LK990, if the 970 doesn't even have it, and was truly only 1400:1 then that's even worse.

The whole spectrum of issues I posted earlier are my beef as a whole with these machines, not any singular issue.

If people are going to say that Dave's settings make or break a projector, then I would ask how many of them have seen dynamic tone mapping from either MadVR or Lumagen and compared a static curve to a fully dynamic one? Its truly night and day.

I should add that my issue WITH Dave's settings were the statements from him that they DID make or break the projector and anybody who didn't use them were not 'doing it right'. You will all note that is actually the catalyst for the entire disagreement as we went on.
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post #752 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 06:40 PM
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Javs, is that supposed to be some kind of dig to discredit my observations? Oh, boy!

Is it too ghetto for you?

Or maybe that if I had flat black paint instead of flat brown paint, and turned my lights off, that I might prefer a JVC or Sony image over the LK?

I should probably just dig through your last 200 posts, like you recommended, and maybe I can figure out what good looks like.

If I didn’t have a wife and kids and didn’t just come back from 2 weeks vacation with my family, and don’t have out of town travel planned for the next three weeks I might ...

Nah, I think I’m fine.

How do you have time and energy for all of this?

Do you live with your parents or a are you a professional hockey player, like Coldmachine?

Or are you really just some guy who cares?
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post #753 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

Or maybe that if I had flat black paint instead of flat brown paint, and turned my lights off, that I might prefer a JVC or Sony image over the LK?
Cat, I clicked on the spoiler thingy but I couldn't see any pic of your space.
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post #754 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 07:11 PM
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Javs, is that supposed to be some kind of dig to discredit my observations? Oh, boy!

Is it too ghetto for you?

Or maybe that if I had flat black paint instead of flat brown paint, and turned my lights off, that I might prefer a JVC or Sony image over the LK?

I should probably just dig through your last 200 posts, like you recommended, and maybe I can figure out what good looks like.

If I didn’t have a wife and kids and didn’t just come back from 2 weeks vacation with my family, and don’t have out of town travel planned for the next three weeks I might ...

Nah, I think I’m fine.

How do you have time and energy for all of this?

Do you live with your parents or a are you a professional hockey player, like Coldmachine?

Or are you really just some guy who cares?
It was a legit question to help illustrate a wider point.

All this talk about ANSI contrast and most of you guys have rooms which cant do any more than 80-100:1 ANSI and yet try and argue contrast is good. I think this was Daves situation too, I've heard his room had white walls.

Nope I am very happily married with a kid too. I have time for lots of things, some are very lucky to be able to make a good living from home. Thanks for your concern about my social life.
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post #755 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 07:13 PM
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Cat, I clicked on the spoiler thingy but I couldn't see any pic of your space.
Pics from his thread in his sig are 12 years old, which is why I asked if its still his room...

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post #756 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
They have some improvements to do as I posted earlier, hopefully drop in the new native 4K DMD in the future, eradicate rainbows, and they have a pretty solid machine.

Dimming enables was an absolute MUST on the LK990, if the 970 doesn't even have it, and was truly only 1400:1 then that's even worse.

The whole spectrum of issues I posted earlier are my beef as a whole with these machines, not any singular issue.

If people are going to say that Dave's settings make or break a projector, then I would ask how many of them have seen dynamic tone mapping from either MadVR or Lumagen and compared a static curve to a fully dynamic one? Its truly night and day.

I should add that my issue WITH Dave's settings were the statements from him that they DID make or break the projector and anybody who didn't use them were not 'doing it right'. You will all note that is actually the catalyst for the entire disagreement as we went on.
Luckily for me, the HT9060 has that rainbow issue pretty much solved. I said it before and I will again: color is the showcase for the 9060 and it appears that the clean LED light plays a little trick on my eyes too to make it like there's a tad more contrast. Tone mapping is okay for HDR in the 9060. Maybe it's better in the LK990. The issue I have is how can I get external tone-mapping in the 9060, if I want that, and still display its awesome wide color.

Yes, Smarteco helps tremendously with the HT9060 and I would assume it works the same way on the LK990.

As far as Dave's settings, I thought he was saying that if someone were getting a heavy or milky gray on dark scenes, then they weren't setting it up correctly, that his settings would treat that.
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post #757 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Pics from his thread in his sig are 12 years old, which is why I asked if its still his room...
I went to Cat's sig and didn't see any pictures in the build thread. It's okay.
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post #758 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Luckily for me, the HT9060 has that rainbow issue pretty much solved. I said it before and I will again: color is the showcase for the 9060 and it appears that the clean LED light plays a little trick on my eyes too to make it like there's a tad more contrast. Tone mapping is okay for HDR in the 9060. Maybe it's better in the LK990. The issue I have is how can I get external tone-mapping in the 9060, if I want that, and still display its awesome wide color.

Yes, Smarteco helps tremendously with the HT9060 and I would assume it works the same way on the LK990.

As far as Dave's settings, I thought he was saying that if someone were getting a heavy or milky gray on dark scenes, then they weren't setting it up correctly, that his settings would treat that.
Yeah the colour gamut menus being locked in SDR and the gamma menus locked in HDR is something that really needs to be looked at urgently if you want to be able to use the best tone mapping and keep BT2020 colour.

Regarding he LK990, I could get an approximation of P3 manually by pushing the SDR Rec709 gamut pretty hard, but I did load up and measure the gamut when fed HDR too, and there is a bit extra green you get with that, so its definitely not ideal. You would really want to just use Rec709 if you are forced to use SDR.

SDR shaping Rec709 to P3 as best as I could.



When fed HDR and actually selecting P3



I would wager tone mapping between the two machines would be very similar, it clips highlights very quickly unless you dial it back, at the end of the day its a pretty general static map, stuff we were watching a year or two back. I still think the tone mapping needs to be done in players these days. That presents a problem when using external sources though such as set top boxes and netflix etc...


Quote:
As far as Dave's settings, I thought he was saying that if someone were getting a heavy or milky gray on dark scenes, then they weren't setting it up correctly, that his settings would treat that.
Thats kinda the crux of it, they DONT treat that. At least on the LK990. There is no setting to cure 5k:1 contrast when using correct gamma, even 2.4 gamma. Black is black, there is no way to lower it without increasing contrast more. He went on to say the LK970 didn't suffer from the milky grey, but we know that measured 1400:1... Queue the head scratching!
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post #759 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Luckily for me, the HT9060 has that rainbow issue pretty much solved. I said it before and I will again: color is the showcase for the 9060 and it appears that the clean LED light plays a little trick on my eyes too to make it like there's a tad more contrast. Tone mapping is okay for HDR in the 9060. Maybe it's better in the LK990. The issue I have is how can I get external tone-mapping in the 9060, if I want that, and still display its awesome wide color.

Yes, Smarteco helps tremendously with the HT9060 and I would assume it works the same way on the LK990.

As far as Dave's settings, I thought he was saying that if someone were getting a heavy or milky gray on dark scenes, then they weren't setting it up correctly, that his settings would treat that.
The problem with that statement, most of the time you do no notice it is washed out, until you have something better to compare to. If you notice it is washed out, without having anything better to compare to, then it is really bad.
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post #760 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 07:57 PM
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I’m not concerned about your social life. You just appear to have a lot of time on your hands and I was thinking maybe you were unemployed and maybe that’ s why you sounded so jaded.

It’s great to hear about you being a parent. I became a lot more empathetic and lot less self-centered when I became a dad and even more so when I became a grandfather.

I’m still a work in progress but I think for the most part we all strive to be the best, most kind, people we can be.

Now, in regards to what you seem to believe I said, let me set the record straight. I don’t believe I ever once said “contrast (on the lk970) was good” or even implied it.

1000 to 1 contrast ratio is not good, but unlike with all the other projectors I have owned it doesn’t seem to matter in regards to how it looks on low APL scenes - where it looks very good.

While it doesn’t show “inky” blacks like my Marantz or JVC did on my grey screen (specially with my ND filter on) it actually looks better to me and my family loves it.

My wife is even happier because she didnt like the blinds and blackout treatment that we had in the media room ( she took all of our blinds off throughout the house and put up curtains everywhere - I know!! ) and my blackout curtains work perfectly fine for our movie watching, even during the afternoons and with the LK970 you don’t need any of that crap anyways.

It’s great for work/hobby-life balance.
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post #761 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 08:11 PM
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I’m not concerned about your social life. You just appear to have a lot of time on your hands and I was thinking maybe you were unemployed and maybe that’ s why you sounded so jaded.

It’s great to hear about you being a parent. I became a lot more empathetic and lot less self-centered when I became a dad and even more so when I became a grandfather.

I’m still a work in progress but I think for the most part we all strive to be the best, most kind, people we can be.

Now, in regards to what you seem to believe I said, let me set the record straight. I don’t believe I ever once said “contrast (on the lk970) was good” or even implied it.

1000 to 1 contrast ratio is not good, but unlike with all the other projectors I have owned it doesn’t seem to matter in regards to how it looks on low APL scenes - where it looks very good.

While it doesn’t show “inky” blacks like my Marantz or JVC did on my grey screen (specially with my ND filter on) it actually looks better to me and my family loves it.

My wife is even happier because she didnt like the blinds and blackout treatment that we had in the media room ( she took all of our blinds off throughout the house and put up curtains everywhere - I know!! ) and my blackout curtains work perfectly fine for our movie watching, even during the afternoons and with the LK970 you don’t need any of that crap anyways.

It’s great for work/hobby-life balance.
No worries. All I know is I went to sleep and woke up and read the last two pages and yours was the more recent one I chose to reply to, but if you read the previous page everyone was jumping in, so really the reply was to all in general.

My current room is actually also dual use. It opens to a balcony overlooking the lake near us... At night when we watch a film, it has a curtain system which has velvet on the ceiling and curtains runing down the side, we can close it and the whole room becomes a pitch black velvet tent.

My wife is not a super fan of the room being completely 'closed' all the time either, which is why most of the time we just pull the front half close and leave the back half open, doing that I still have most of the contrast abilities of the closed room, she just likes it better, and I prefer have her with me watching stuff rather than watching alone. In fact, I dont even watch movies alone since I got married, I used to, but its just not the same these days. I'm sure you know what I mean there.





This photos were in the middle of the day curtains closed with a flash on... quite dark, at night I cant see a damned thing unless I turn on a light.





I am legitimately curious about your room though, have you got any up to date pictures?
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post #762 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 08:14 PM
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Azatar, all those old pics should still be there. I haven’t messed with them. You just need to dig a little bit I guess as Javs looks like he found them.

In regards to the grey haze, one of the biggest things I found with Dave’s settings
Is the same thing that 12gage or tnaik found - you can push the brightness and contrast settings on the LK very aggressively, to the point that you start to clip and crush then dial it back a few.

With that, the haze on the low APL scenes are gone and It looks great. Crystal clear.

You might not remember Seinfeld, but if you do and are like the “soup-nazi” when it comes tp calibrating though it likely will need more work.
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post #763 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 08:55 PM
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Thanks for sharing all of that, Javs.

That’s a nice setup. Enjoy all of the compromising you are able to get as a newlywed. After a while they get everything they want and you, happily, get what they let you have.

My media and game room still look mostly the same. If those pictures were from 2012, I actually took a different territory with my company in 2013 that had me responsible for Florida,GA and the Carolinas and I was
Actually living and working out of an apartment there.

I would fly home weekends to see my kids but for 3 years there I just didn’t have time for my media room/projectors.

Now, I work Western states for my company and I would not accept an offer that required me to relocate there so I just travel in at my discretion and Work out of my home office half the time so I have a lot more time to enjoy it with my kids.

My wife doesn’t particularly care about it but she humors me. All my kids, and my granddaughter, love movies though and they really love the LK.

We are going to pick up a few more movies for Father’s Day day tomorrow, including Captain Marvel and two new Captain America UHDs and will get some swimming/sun and movies in with them this weekend.

Happy Father’s Day to you. I hope you have a good weekend planned.
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post #764 of 805 Old 06-14-2019, 09:04 PM
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Thanks for sharing all of that, Javs.

That’s a nice setup. Enjoy all of the compromising you are able to get as a newlywed. After a while they get everything they want and you, happily, get what they let you have.
Lol, is 8 years still considered newly-wed? I guess that depends on ones perception.

Happy fathers day to you, but in Australia we are on a different timeline for those days

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post #765 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 02:26 AM
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Archibald. Again you’re pulling the clothes off the emperor! Just like a majority of consumers will say a louder speaker sounds better, so too will they say a brighter image looks better. But “better” is subjective and that subjectively-better-looking, brighter, image may very well perform poorer along another measurement, say contrast or color accuracy. Now, more “experienced”/“refined”/“snobby” (use whatever positive or negative adjective you like) may very well reach a different conclusion. They may very well pick the dimmer but more contrasty image. But, that doesn’t make them right and the others wrong. It’s their opinion and one worth considering but only an opinion.
I'm sorry, but this misses the point. A brighter image looks better when doing side-by-side comparisons to most. That is what I said. However, it was assumed to be common knowledge that the human eye will adjust to the brighter image in a few seconds and then you start noticing the other areas where the image lacks. This isn't the case where a brighter image is just better because it pops more etc. The same people that pick the brighter image in that side-by-side will likely find they prefer the one with all the better attributes after letting their eyes adjust.

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people here seems to know better than me what i see in my own room...
Agreed

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Pics from his thread in his sig are 12 years old, which is why I asked if its still his room...
I think after you pointed out his pics he pulled them down because your spoiler tag shows nothing and his thread is all dead links. I guess if it were as you described he probably did take them down.

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post #768 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 02:35 AM
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Luckily for me, the HT9060 has that rainbow issue pretty much solved. I said it before and I will again: color is the showcase for the 9060 and it appears that the clean LED light plays a little trick on my eyes too to make it like there's a tad more contrast. Tone mapping is okay for HDR in the 9060. Maybe it's better in the LK990. The issue I have is how can I get external tone-mapping in the 9060, if I want that, and still display its awesome wide color.

Yes, Smarteco helps tremendously with the HT9060 and I would assume it works the same way on the LK990.

As far as Dave's settings, I thought he was saying that if someone were getting a heavy or milky gray on dark scenes, then they weren't setting it up correctly, that his settings would treat that.
Yes, except people are getting milky grey on dark scenes because a 1400:1 projector produces milky grey blacks not because they didn't use magic settings. His settings are just changes to gamma etc. You can't lower the black floor of a projector with gamma tweaks. Gamma doesn't impact true black.

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post #769 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 06:09 AM
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Why would I pull them down?

The spoiler link still works tor me on my phone.

I haven’t touched those links or those pics. I’m sure they are still there if Javs was able to see them.

Your eyes are just playing tricks on you. Stare at that screen a little longer. Your eyes will adjust and you will find the details you are looking for.

Come on man, I thought you knew what you were talking about. That sounded like some pretty legitimate stuff you were discussing with SaulP.

Try harder.
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post #770 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 07:13 AM
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The problem with that statement, most of the time you do no notice it is washed out, until you have something better to compare to. If you notice it is washed out, without having anything better to compare to, then it is really bad.
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Gamma doesn't impact true black.
Good morning, everyone.

I agree with Mike that a point of reference can make a difference, but I would add the following:

Going from the Sony 695ES to the BenQ HT9060 was an easy transition for me.

Keep in mind that these solid state light engines give plenty of use versatility where black levels and gamma are not always relevant. With that said, I know that here, we're talking about film/movies.

Speaking from the HT9060, the lower contrast is most noticeable in dark scenes where the content itself is mastered with some overexposure giving rise to a "milky" or slight gray cast. Two good examples of this can be found in the movies Bumblebee and the recent version of A Star is Born. All the recently released projectors I've demo'd didn't handle that type of overexposure as well as certain of the JVC DI shifters of old that I've seen.

For example, viewing the dark scenes in the HD version of Bumblebee on both the 695 and the 9060 (in Smarteco) did not produce much difference; the slight grayish cast was apparent on both but to a slightly lesser extent on the 695, even when the Sony's DI was activated.

Viewing some clips from the UHD version of A Star is Born on the JVC NX9 showed the cast still, even in a full blacked out room. This was not a side-by-side comparison with either the 695 or 9060, mind you. I will say the gray cast was noticeable to an even lesser extent on the NX9 than on both the 695 and the 9060.

Viewing the same dark clip from A Star is Born on a DI equipped JVC shifter showed a very large difference in those dark scenes. You could see the content was mastered the way it was, but it just looked rich and clear. It just looked right.

So, the 695ES's native contrast being around 10,000:1 native/77,000:1 dynamic (on mine) didn't translate on the screen to showing such a disparate difference between the Sony and the BenQ --with the content I referenced above.

That point of reference made it easier for me to go from the 695ES to the HT9060 for those dark scenes than say from an NX9 ...or say the far more noticeable difference in going from something like an older DI equipped JVC.

With essential picture quality elements, not all are going to be outstanding sometimes. It comes down to what is acceptable to you. There's almost invariably going to be something that does better blacks, better sharpness, or better color. You just have to pick your gains and losses.
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post #771 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 07:42 AM
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I don't think they will make it this year, so probably early next year. Denon's 8500 will be upgradeable to 2.1. So if you want to go ahead with atmos, that is an option. Though you will have to send the unit in, for the update and it will not be a free update.


I thought that was more like spring / summer 2020?


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post #772 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 11:58 AM
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I thought that was more like spring / summer 2020?


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Early next year is spring of 2020.
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post #773 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 12:55 PM
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Azatar, all those old pics should still be there. I haven’t messed with them. You just need to dig a little bit
Okay...will do. Thanks.
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post #774 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 03:25 PM
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Arghhhhhhh.

I finally installed a ceiling mount for my LK990 (vaulted ceiling mount). My step son came by on Thursday to help me hoist up the pj and secure it to the mount. I used the projector that evening and all was fine. I came home from work Friday night and turned on the projector. The image came up for about 30 seconds and turned off. I tried it several times. Same result. I checked all cables, etc., and the same result. Today, I tried it again, same result but I finally noticed the fault lights. Based on the owner's manual, the fault lights indicate a cooling fan is not operating properly. I suspect that turning it upside down is the issue. My step son is coming by tomorrow to help me take it back down. I'll put it back on my cart in "table top" position and see if the fault light still comes on. While in table top mode the pj worked consistently for hours at a time (no over heat or any other issues at all). The pj, table top or ceiling mounted, is in wide open space. BenQ support will not be open until Monday.

Marcus
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post #775 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 03:30 PM
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Arghhhhhhh.

I finally installed a ceiling mount for my LK990 (vaulted ceiling mount). My step son came by on Thursday to help me hoist up the pj and secure it to the mount. I used the projector that evening and all was fine. I came home from work Friday night and turned on the projector. The image came up for about 30 seconds and turned off. I tried it several times. Same result. I checked all cables, etc., and the same result. Today, I tried it again, same result but I finally noticed the fault lights. Based on the owner's manual, the fault lights indicate a cooling fan is not operating properly. I suspect that turning it upside down is the issue. My step son is coming by tomorrow to help me take it back down. I'll put it back on my cart in "table top" position and see if the fault light still comes on. While in table top mode the pj worked consistently for hours at a time (no over heat or any other issues at all). The pj, table top or ceiling mounted, is in wide open space. BenQ support will not be open until Monday.

Marcus
Sorry to hear that. Sucks, but at least you will be taken care of by warranty.
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post #776 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 04:08 PM
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Why would I pull them down?

The spoiler link still works tor me on my phone.

I haven’t touched those links or those pics. I’m sure they are still there if Javs was able to see them.

Your eyes are just playing tricks on you. Stare at that screen a little longer. Your eyes will adjust and you will find the details you are looking for.

Come on man, I thought you knew what you were talking about. That sounded like some pretty legitimate stuff you were discussing with SaulP.

Try harder.
Don't worry, you will get used to such things after a while....

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post #777 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 06:42 PM
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Don't worry, you will get used to such things after a while....
For some reason, the spoiler tag does not work for me either. So I could understand why he thought the links were broken.
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post #778 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 10:10 PM
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This is not a democracy.

The moderators decide, when people break forum rules constantly they get an infraction, when they get enough infractions and warnings you get a temp ban, or if they deem it, a permanent ban. This was clearly not the first instance for Dave, it was the last straw I guess.

Mike is not a moderator, he has nothing to do with this forum its owned by VerticalScope.


Here are the moderators for this forum:PooperScooper , Barrybud , Woodrow , markrubin , rboster
If we are to bring back anyone I would suggest Peter!


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post #779 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 10:39 PM
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Why would I pull them down?

The spoiler link still works tor me on my phone.

I haven’t touched those links or those pics. I’m sure they are still there if Javs was able to see them.

Your eyes are just playing tricks on you. Stare at that screen a little longer. Your eyes will adjust and you will find the details you are looking for.

Come on man, I thought you knew what you were talking about. That sounded like some pretty legitimate stuff you were discussing with SaulP.

Try harder.
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Don't worry, you will get used to such things after a while....
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For some reason, the spoiler tag does not work for me either. So I could understand why he thought the links were broken.
So I wasn't just trolling. The images in the spoiler tag are empty. Then I click on the home theater thread build link in catdaddy's signature and here is the view of the images:



I click on one image (the 2nd in the first post) and here is what I see:


It's not just me, someone else commented that the images were dead.
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Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #780 of 805 Old 06-15-2019, 10:55 PM
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So I wasn't just trolling. The images in the spoiler tag are empty. Then I click on the home theater thread build link in catdaddy's signature and here is the view of the images:

I click on one image (the 2nd in the first post) and here is what I see:


It's not just me, someone else commented that the images were dead.
Nah you need to click on the links, thats how it looked when I first grabbed them, anyway here are the two I posted.

The original question was, is his room still the same, it sounds like its similar but possibly a different house. He hasn't removed anything, I wasn't out to get him I was just asking.






The biggest upgrade I ever did in my theatre was black it out, even on the Sony 300ES the uptick in contrast was astounding. I went from 69:1 ANSI to about 130:1 in my old apartment, just by adding some panels to the ceiling, for 4ft. Pretty ugly but it worked.

In my room right now since I have a velvet tent, I was able to measure the LK990 at about 470:1 in this position (curtains closed though). So sounds like my current room is pretty decent. Although the LK measures more like 950:1 at the lens apparently, my room can only do about half that, however, put a Sony in my room same position, its very likely the ANSI would still be measuring about 400+ from there due to how the room effects the ANSI. JVC I have only measured about 220 from there when it was new. I would always welcome more ANSI, but not at the cost of significant native contrast, I know that now, Ive seen it in my own room. It has to be a total balance of both.

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