Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:00 AM
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These JVC projectors have convergence Pixel Adjustments for the whole picture and in 10 zones. How does that correspond to the quick brown fox test pattern and the "dual" horizontal blue vertical lines etc?
Do not think an optical lens will make that kind of only "dual" blue lines in one direction, but maybe a lite to fast factory convergence adjustment early in a production line may cause errors like that?

When it comes to taking photo of screens, and what it can be used for or not, there may be a good idea to think how the sensor in the camera is build too. The Green sensors often have 2x the resolution of red and blue.

The quick brown fox pattern on the Christie pictures looks like the holy grail and the new 4K projector reference. The dark pixels between the white in the 1x1 pixel boxes looked black. Is there any MTF measurement data available for the lenses in the Christie or the N5-N7 and NX9 models?
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post #452 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
So then what? You want to hear: "Projector looks sharp. I watched 3 movies and loved them! Peace!"?
1. Tone mapping quality is of significant importance.
2. Do the new units still crush black when receiving an HDR input signal?
2. What benefits does the real 2160p panel bring over the 1080p panels with eshift?
3. What is the lumens with the DCI-P3 Color filter in place vs not having the color filter in place?
4. How loud is the projector vs the previous JVC?
5. What is new in the menu or not in the menu compared to prior JVC?
6. How fast does the HDMI sync take place vs the previous JVC's?
7. What is the input latency in normal mode and low latency mode?
8. Is there bright corners?
9. How is the 3D on the new units?
10. How well do the motion interpolation modes work?
11. What kind of Anamorphic Lens modes are avail now that the panel is 17:9 vs 16:9?
12. How well do the Installation modes work when changing installation modes?
13. How much Masking (Blanking) do we get in the new models?
14. How good is the powered lens focus and does it allow stepping to set focus or is it continual and you need to stop it just at the right time to get perfect focus?
15. How well does the projector retain focus and lens position after a cold boot vs being warmed up? (Does the image shift at all, or change in focus?)
16. ETC...

Maybe these things are not important to you, but there is way more to a projector than just staring at its pixel structure.

If that is the most important thing... we would all be on single chip DLP’s and call it a day.
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post #453 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
@bobof and @Bytehoven regarding the DI test using THIS test video of Bytehovens: http://blanca.com/JVC/DI_Test_IRE_0_15.mp4

With the pre-existing JVCs at which points do gamma crush manifest?

I'm evaluating whether the DI functionality has been improved.

Because I am testing the JVC RS3000/NX9 and with this video there is only brief gamma crush at 0%... and that is all. It does not seem to do it at all at 5% or 6%

How does this compare with the pre-existing JVCs?

Also, I am measuring some pretty impressive dynamic contrast figures for the RS3000/NX9 with iris wide open and max zoom... The black levels are VERY good with the DI enabled. Surprisingly so to be honest! That's my first impressions at least...

Did you try my torture test: Mission Impossible: Fallout from 05:57 (headlights over the whole scene, switching auto on/off to see the difference, even on a paused pic)?

If the new DI works like the old one, the issue is WORSE on my rs500 when the iris is fully open.

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
What do you mean when you say RGB separation?
RGB separation is how each R,G,B color tracks gamma separately (think a gamma plot for Red, Green and Blue shown on the same chart).

It has nothing to do with RGB balance and it's an important element when using a 3D LUT.

I've asked Spectracal to add a layout in Calman for this (ages ago, hopefully it will come one day). At the moment, only Lightspace shows it AFAIK.

I agree that it's unlikely to be related to the issue.
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post #454 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ask4me2 View Post
These JVC projectors have convergence Pixel Adjustments for the whole picture and in 10 zones. How does that correspond to the quick brown fox test pattern and the "dual" horizontal blue vertical lines etc?
Do not think an optical lens will make that kind of only "dual" blue lines in one direction, but maybe a lite to fast factory convergence adjustment early in a production line may cause errors like that?

When it comes to taking photo of screens, and what it can be used for or not, there may be a good idea to think how the sensor in the camera is build too. The Green sensors often have 2x the resolution of red and blue.

The quick brown fox pattern on the Christie pictures looks like the holy grail and the new 4K projector reference. The dark pixels between the white in the 1x1 pixel boxes looked black. Is there any MTF measurement data available for the lenses in the Christie or the N5-N7 and NX9 models?
very true re cameras, depends on style of sensor too whether bayer sensor and such, I know myself owning cameras from fuji, canon, panasonic each have their own propensity in "colour science" but that said. I know I for one am always trying to use camera to display things ... as I see. ie so representative. and I'd expect person taking the shot... to tell us if it is indeed the case that the camera in this case has a liking for green so what photo is showing is an exaggeration... or for example the optics is such on the camera that it has its own optical flaws that are imprinting on end result...

ps from what I understand pixel adjustment in itself can do a bit of damage and best left alone ...

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post #455 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:16 AM
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Will these new JVC projectors when in anamorphic mode display cinemascope pictures from Netflix, Amazon or Sky in 4K without greying out in this mode? I believe these providers display 4K at 50fps which is the problem.
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post #456 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by 703 View Post
Do you notice the occasional lamp flicker from time to time as seen in the last year(s) models?
I forgot to mention that! No lamp flicker or dithering noise was visible on low or high lamp. The image was very calm and stable.
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post #457 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
I forgot to mention that! No lamp flicker or dithering noise was visible on low or high lamp. The image was very calm and stable.
that is great news too Bruce !

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post #458 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Yeah ok I know what that is now, it's definitely not that I think.
The pattern calls for pure red green and blue text, meaning, only the blue panel is in use when the pattern asks for blue text. There is no opportunity there for any RGB elements to come into play, unless you are suggesting when the pattern asks for blue, that the base calibration is for some reason not sending pure blue when it references the RGB coordinates for blue.
That is indeed the issue with RGB cross-coupling. On a JVC when the colourspace is smaller than that which would be defined by the native primaries of the panels "pure green" might be created using some % of G, plus some % of B to pull it back towards the desired spot.

I think only "colour profile off" doesn't do this on an X7900.
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post #459 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
I forgot to mention that! No lamp flicker or dithering noise was visible on low or high lamp. The image was very calm and stable.
I find much like the Sony projectors (reportedly) on X7900 lamp flicker occurs after long running in low lamp. This is also manifests as quite wild luminance drift (you can chart this well using Lightspace during an extended profile run), which seems to be the arc dancing around the electrodes in the lamp and finding a new home every so often. High lamp for a few hours seems to fix the results in low lamp for a while, as it re-conditions the electrodes a bit I believe.
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post #460 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 03:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
@bobof and @Bytehoven regarding the DI test using THIS test video of Bytehovens: http://blanca.com/JVC/DI_Test_IRE_0_15.mp4

With the pre-existing JVCs at which points do gamma crush manifest?

I'm evaluating whether the DI functionality has been improved.

Because I am testing the JVC RS3000/NX9 and with this video there is only brief gamma crush at 0%... and that is all. It does not seem to do it at all at 5% or 6%

How does this compare with the pre-existing JVCs?

Also, I am measuring some pretty impressive dynamic contrast figures for the RS3000/NX9 with iris wide open and max zoom... The black levels are VERY good with the DI enabled. Surprisingly so to be honest! That's my first impressions at least...

Arrow, with di off, the image of the pile of gore gex would be clear thru the scale. With auto 1 or 2, there would be bloom and highlight crush for 0, 5 and 6, then go away at 7 and above (on the x990). Those are ire sdr values. I'll repost the sample of the arti act in an hour or so, headed out to a mirning meeting.
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post #461 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Much bigger than my micro cinema - 13'x8'. 92" acoustically transparent screen which I definitely wouldn't swap for a TV with speakers to the sides and below...
@bobof or anyone...... My theater is 14 x 11 and I’m waiting on my NX7. Regarding throw distance, the Projector Central guide says min distance of about 14 feet. If you’ve received one of the new PJ’s, are u or have u any concern with the min throw distance? I have 100” 1.1 gain screen and height is 8 feet. I’m going to take alebonau’s advice and place the NX7 100mm off the back wall. This should have the lens at about 12 feet? Am I going to suffer any picture quality being this close?
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post #462 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Did you try my torture test: Mission Impossible: Fallout from 05:57 (headlights over the whole scene, switching auto on/off to see the difference, even on a paused pic)? If the new DI works like the old one, the issue is WORSE on my rs500 when the iris is fully open.
Am I correct that you're referring to the 1080p HD source of this movie? It's my understanding that the RS500 doesn't support DI for UHD source material. Thanks!
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post #463 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

RGB separation is how each R,G,B color tracks gamma separately (think a gamma plot for Red, Green and Blue shown on the same chart).

It has nothing to do with RGB balance and it's an important element when using a 3D LUT.

I've asked Spectracal to add a layout in Calman for this (ages ago, hopefully it will come one day). At the moment, only Lightspace shows it AFAIK.

I agree that it's unlikely to be related to the issue.

Manni, just to understand what you have requested from Calman. The RGB separation chart in lightspace shows how a potential change in input stimulus will affect the Red, Green and Blue channels with respect to Grey.

Did you ask for this? Or for a gamma chart tracking red, green and blue?
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post #464 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
I forgot to mention that! No lamp flicker or dithering noise was visible on low or high lamp. The image was very calm and stable.
Are we talking about the issue I explained in this post? If so, can you try with manual iris closed all the way down to -15. The brightness fluctuation was most noticeable on large, bright, solid-color (like white) areas like you would see on a computer desktop for example. You can check the reference video linked in my post for example of what the problem looks like.
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post #465 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Ye Gods!!!!! That IS impressive...
I used to think that level of sharpness was impossible from a projector. That was until I got the Marantz VP-11S2L with the long-throw Konica/Minolta lens. Both me and the guy I sold it too couldn't believe you could achieve computer-monitor-like pixel sharpness from a projector from edge to edge of the screen. I have not seen its equal since. Looked exactly like those Christie images that Javs posted (also had same 1000:1 ANSI contrast). Granted it was a single-chip 1080p DLP but these newer LCOS models can't even do that when only using a single color panel. Really disappointing considering the age of that projector.

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Originally Posted by JeffR1 View Post
The photos of the NX5 were much cleaner then these present ones we're seeing of the NX9, so that's what doesn't make sense.
Pixel peeping or not.
That was from N5 unit picked for Cedia show floor. Ever heard the term "golden sample"? I want to see several retail N5 units to see what's typical.

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post #466 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
I received my NX7 late this afternoon and after a warm-up period I did some checking on the usual problem areas for a new projector:

1. Stuck Pixels - can't find a single one.
2. RGB Convergence - nearly perfect. There is a very slight convergence error in the blue channel on the far right hand side. You need to be within 2 feet of the screen to see it on a convergence test pattern. It's not visible on normal content at all.
3. Bright corners - there is a vague sense that the corners are a bit lighter than the centre after your eyes have adjusted to the darkness.
4. Overall on/off contrast seems comparable to my X750.
5. Build quality is high. The new chassis is solid.
Thanks for the initial impressions. All my recent JVC samples had blue-panel pixel defects so this is a good sign. Solid convergence at 4K pixel-size is also impressive assuming no zone-based adjustment was necessary. Bright corners as expected from other pre-production reviews.

Have you noted any improvement vs. your X750 regarding vertical streaking or internal reflections? (links for reference).

If any other owners can also test, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

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post #467 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes my unit has this bug... However, with the iris wide open (set to '0') the bug does not exist and it works absolutely fine. So it seems to only happen if/when you close down the iris.

Suffice to say that I have reported the bug to JVC Europe, my side of the pond. They really need to fix this bug ASAP...

And I'm pretty confident that they will release the firmware with bug fixes very very soon, not like some other brands )

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post #468 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
What do you mean when you say RGB separation?

Also how could that be the issue when the issue is unique to only the red and blue panels. I don't see how calibration modes will change that.
RGB Separation are strictly tight to Color Profiles from the display unit. So if the RGB separation is not that good, (Red, Blue and Green) are nonlinear within the 0-100% greyscale range.
So when you probing every profile pre-calibration, it compares each primary R, G and B patch of the same stimulus value (for instance Red 128,0,0 Green 0,128,0 and Blue 0,0,128) to the equivalent grey scale patch (128,128,128), matching individual RGB patch measured values to the expected colour matrix combination for the equivalent grey patch. Any error shown in the graph (deviation of the R, G, B lines from each other) shows that the display is suffering colour decoupling issues with the display's RGB colours channels. This means that an input colour change that should affect only a single colour channel also causes changes within the other colour channels - what is known as cross-coupling between the colour channels.
This could be explained why Red and Blue colours has this effects in Foxy Brown Patterns. Changing the ColorProfile setting in the Projector can show different RGB Separation values.
This will also directly affect how your post calibration picture will look like especially with 3D Lut calibration, the worse RGB separation is the more errors you'll have during the 3D Lut Calibration.
This is one of the aspects why LightSpace is a great calibration tool as it shows those graphs ( I haven't seen anything similar in CalMan or ChromaPure). It helped me alot during my 760ES calibration, which has RGB Separation issues with most of predefined ColorProfiles (BT709, BT2020), ColorSpace3 was showing the best RGB Separation.
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post #469 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 05:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
@bobof and @Bytehoven regarding the DI test using THIS test video of Bytehovens: http://blanca.com/JVC/DI_Test_IRE_0_15.mp4

With the pre-existing JVCs at which points do gamma crush manifest?

http://www.blanca.com/JVC/gamma990.mp4

Arrow... here is the link to an example of what the x990 does with the 0 IRE starting frame. The clip has DI OFF, Auto 1 and Auto 2. On the new torture test clip with multiple IRE starting frames, the artifact stops at 7 IRE starting frame value.

If you meant something else, let me know.
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post #470 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
RGB Separation are strictly tight to Color Profiles from the display unit. So if the RGB separation is not that good, (Red, Blue and Green) are nonlinear within the 0-100% greyscale range.
So when you probing every profile pre-calibration, it compares each primary R, G and B patch of the same stimulus value (for instance Red 128,0,0 Green 0,128,0 and Blue 0,0,128) to the equivalent grey scale patch (128,128,128), matching individual RGB patch measured values to the expected colour matrix combination for the equivalent grey patch. Any error shown in the graph (deviation of the R, G, B lines from each other) shows that the display is suffering colour decoupling issues with the display's RGB colours channels. This means that an input colour change that should affect only a single colour channel also causes changes within the other colour channels - what is known as cross-coupling between the colour channels.
This could be explained why Red and Blue colours has this effects in Foxy Brown Patterns. Changing the ColorProfile setting in the Projector can show different RGB Separation values.
This will also directly affect how your post calibration picture will look like especially with 3D Lut calibration, the worse RGB separation is the more errors you'll have during the 3D Lut Calibration.
This is one of the aspects why LightSpace is a great calibration tool as it shows those graphs ( I haven't seen anything similar in CalMan or ChromaPure). It helped me alot during my 760ES calibration, which has RGB Separation issues with most of predefined ColorProfiles (BT709, BT2020), ColorSpace3 was showing the best RGB Separation.

This is by far the best definition and explanation I have ever read about color separation. It will be very easy for Arrow (or any other owner) to disable color profile (I would assume the "off" option is still available) and try the pattern.
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post #471 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 05:44 AM
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I am anxious to see the contrast measurements. The auto tone mapping also sounds promising. That's a big, big deal. I have an RS520 and was originally using an Oppo 203 but then sold it for a Panny UB820 and I can attest that the auto tone mapping in that player made a noticeable improvement to me. The problem is the tone mapping only applies to UHD discs, not to other content. With the auto tone mapping done in the projector you will get the benefit of all sources.

That's a big differentiator to me and not something to be taken lightly when comparing projectors. Otherwise you have to add more expensive hardware into the mix and have the knowledge and skill to setup/configure.

I look forward to more discussion and testing around the auto-tone mapping. Honestly that feature alone makes me think about upgrading sooner since there is so much good content on streaming now you can't get on disc.
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post #472 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loggeo View Post
This is by far the best definition and explanation I have ever read about color separation. It will be very easy for Arrow (or any other owner) to disable color profile (I would assume the "off" option is still available) and try the pattern.
Thank you Loggeo, but terms explanation is not mine, its Steve Shaw explanation, I've just rephrased it slightly and added some more explanation. https://www.lightillusion.com/profiling_manual.html to find out more about RGB Separation.
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I was going to post my serial number, too, and realized that’s mine!

Loving the projector, like the others. Uncalibrated, but phenomenal picture across various sources on my Stewart Grayhawk RS. I can firmly state that if you are also considering moving up from an RS60, it is a decision you won’t regret! ....Okay, that might only be me with a seven year old projector...

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post #474 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jmonier View Post
Apparently JVC didn't want to have different cases for the NX5 and NX7 than for the NX9, so they sized it for the much bigger lens in the NX9. If you pick up each, though, you'll know which is which. The NX9 weighs almost 5 lbs (2 kg) more than the NX5/NX7.

All of them are heavy, though. Even the NX5/NX7 weighs almost 10 lbs more than previous models.
The 3000 uses same case but due to the lens is 1" longer in length.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 01-09-2019 at 05:58 AM.
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post #475 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 05:55 AM
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@bobof or anyone...... My theater is 14 x 11 and I’m waiting on my NX7. Regarding throw distance, the Projector Central guide says min distance of about 14 feet. If you’ve received one of the new PJ’s, are u or have u any concern with the min throw distance? I have 100” 1.1 gain screen and height is 8 feet. I’m going to take alebonau’s advice and place the NX7 100mm off the back wall. This should have the lens at about 12 feet? Am I going to suffer any picture quality being this close?


This will be my first projector. I read the manual last-night and it stated for proper airflow (on the back side where the intake is) that it needs to be 8” away from the back wall.


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post #476 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 05:58 AM
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I am anxious to see the contrast measurements. The auto tone mapping also sounds promising. That's a big, big deal. I have an RS520 and was originally using an Oppo 203 but then sold it for a Panny UB820 and I can attest that the auto tone mapping in that player made a noticeable improvement to me. The problem is the tone mapping only applies to UHD discs, not to other content. With the auto tone mapping done in the projector you will get the benefit of all sources.

That's a big differentiator to me and not something to be taken lightly when comparing projectors. Otherwise you have to add more expensive hardware into the mix and have the knowledge and skill to setup/configure.

I look forward to more discussion and testing around the auto-tone mapping. Honestly that feature alone makes me think about upgrading sooner since there is so much good content on streaming now you can't get on disc.
We have not finished talking about pixels yet. Please take a number...
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post #477 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 06:07 AM
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We have not finished talking about pixels yet. Please take a number...
Is there anything else to talk about? It's all pixels, innit? :-p
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post #478 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 06:08 AM
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Thanks for the initial impressions. All my recent JVC samples had blue-panel pixel defects so this is a good sign. Solid convergence at 4K pixel-size is also impressive assuming no zone-based adjustment was necessary. Bright corners as expected from other pre-production reviews.

Have you noted any improvement vs. your X750 regarding vertical streaking or internal reflections? (links for reference).

If any other owners can also test, I would appreciate it. Thanks.
I do find that there is less streaking and internal reflections on the NX7 as compared to the X750. On the X750 a bright highlight on one side of the screen would often cause a nebulous ghost reflection on the opposite side of the screen. I haven't been able to detect that on the NX7. Streaking also seems better.

Although the lens in the NX7 is unchanged from the X750 and not up to the NX9 level, other improvements in the optical block are common to all models with this new chassis and subjectively at least - result in sharper images with better contrast.
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post #479 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 06:10 AM
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Is there anything else to talk about? It's all pixels, innit? :-p
Just a small list...

1. Tone mapping quality is of significant importance.
2. Do the new units still crush black when receiving an HDR input signal?
2. What benefits does the real 2160p panel bring over the 1080p panels with eshift?
3. What is the lumens with the DCI-P3 Color filter in place vs not having the color filter in place?
4. How loud is the projector vs the previous JVC?
5. What is new in the menu or not in the menu compared to prior JVC?
6. How fast does the HDMI sync take place vs the previous JVC's?
7. What is the input latency in normal mode and low latency mode?
8. Is there bright corners?
9. How is the 3D on the new units?
10. How well do the motion interpolation modes work?
11. What kind of Anamorphic Lens modes are avail now that the panel is 17:9 vs 16:9?
12. How well do the Installation modes work when changing installation modes?
13. How much Masking (Blanking) do we get in the new models?
14. How good is the powered lens focus and does it allow stepping to set focus or is it continual and you need to stop it just at the right time to get perfect focus?
15. How well does the projector retain focus and lens position after a cold boot vs being warmed up? (Does the image shift at all, or change in focus?)
16. ETC...

But we wait till the pixel structure talk is over first.

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post #480 of 14199 Old 01-09-2019, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Did you try my torture test: Mission Impossible: Fallout from 05:57 (headlights over the whole scene, switching auto on/off to see the difference, even on a paused pic)? If the new DI works like the old one, the issue is WORSE on my rs500 when the iris is fully open.
Am I correct that you're referring to the 1080p HD source of this movie? It's my understanding that the RS500 doesn't support DI for UHD source material. Thanks!
It does if you strip out the HDR flag with for instance a HDfury linker. Or you can do the tonemapping in the uhd player, which also strips out the flag.
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