Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 177 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5281 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I got my first RS2000 last week, and I’m seeing the same exact thing you are seeing. With the DI engaged, anytime the iris is closes down significantly, the whites are turning yellow.

The DI seems to be clearly manipulating gamma, because this shift doesn’t happen if you manually close down the lens. It only happens as part of the DI.

I have a second RS2000 arriving tomorrow, but I suspect it will do the same. Hopefully JVC will get an firmware update sent out ASAP to tweak the DI performance.
Thank you for confirming - this gives me comfort that I am not the only one and JVC will probably issue a fix.

I am just hoping this is indeed a gamma / firmware issue. Hopefully the Dynamic iris itself is not causing interference with the Blue color in the light path physically.
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post #5282 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Great post. I'm moving in the opposite direction. I currently have the dla-x990 but just closed a deal on a new 4k production to begin in late April, so i can fund a projector upgrade. I have been looking at the 760/885 for awhile, basically since i got the x990.

I'll have a chance to see the 885 and 995 in person in a studio setting. I have no doubt my studio clients won't miss the contrast performance of the x990, but i want see if i will.

The nx series roll out makes me nervous about a possible late april install. Will pre orders even be all filled by then?

Anyway, good luck with your nx7.
You are going to love the 995. I got to watch a 995 demo this weekend in a dedicated theater right after installation by my friend dealer/installer and right out of the box was one of the best pictures I ever watched in my life. He did go into the service menu and did some changes before showing any movie material. Pretty sure he turned off item 21 and something else that I don't remember. In two weeks he is installing a Z1 so most likely I will go to see that one as well. Unfortunately, I cannot afford either so more than enjoyment is a torture test for me

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post #5283 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Hopefully the Dynamic iris itself is not causing interference with the Blue color in the light path physically.
Not likely. The dynamic iris is the lens iris. It should be full spectrum at that point. My guess is they need to tweak the dynamic gamma a bit hopefully with a firmware update.

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post #5284 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Hopefully the Dynamic iris itself is not causing interference with the Blue color in the light path physically.
Dynamic iris shares the same lens iris hardware that can also be controlled manually. Do you see the yellow tone appearing when you close down the iris?
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post #5285 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post
So you would say that this chart is incorrect?
Personally I believe you should use the chart as a rough guide, but certainly not some kind of gold standard or hard rule.

I have a 65" in my living room, sitting about 7-8 feet back, and 4k is without a question, significantly sharper and an order of magnitude better image than 1080p. Yet the chart would tell me it "isn't worth it". Sorry, the chart is wrong. It is WELL worth it. It doesn't mean I am content with 1080p on this TV, just that I can definitely notice the difference from 1080p to 4k UHD blu ray. Not quite as much with 4k streamed, so perhaps it isn't so much about the number of pixels as it is the quality of the image... ?

In my theater, watching my 150" wide scope, sitting ~13 feet back, going from 1080p to e-shift 4k is, without hesitation, truly a "night and day" difference, and the chart says this should be "worth it". However, I can't pick out an individual pixel in 1080p, let alone 4k from my seat. My eyes can barely pick them out at 3 feet, and while I hit the "20/20" vision with my contacts or glasses, my vision is not terribly good. Sure, I can read the eye chart and get the letters right, but the bottom row is still blurry, even with my glasses or contacts on.

My eyes suck, yet I see a significant improvement with 4k that charts (and some people) will tell you that you would never see. Sorry, I simply don't agree, and that is not based on anything other than personal experience. I see no correlation (at least no direct correlation) between the ability to see individual pixels from your seating distance and your ability to notice a significant difference between 1080p, e-shift, and true 4k, so I personally throw that idea right out the window.

likewise, several people both here in this thread and who witnessed the rs3000/nx9 at Cedia report a noticeable improvement with 8k e-shift. When you get close the pixels get muddy and the image has noise, but nevertheless, they see an improvement at seating distance. I can't disregard that, even if the science of how the eye works vs the size of pixels tells us it is impossible.

Just remember that these things are "guidelines" and not "laws of reality". Let your own eyes decide.
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post #5286 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
Not likely. The dynamic iris is the lens iris. It should be full spectrum at that point. My guess is they need to tweak the dynamic gamma a bit hopefully with a firmware update.

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Dynamic iris shares the same lens iris hardware that can also be controlled manually. Do you see the yellow tone appearing when you close down the iris?
When I close the Lens iris (manual aperture) there is no Yellow whatsoever.

BTW I always thought that NX7 and 9 had two Iris mechanisms - one for Lens and other for 'Dynamic' . Are they physically the same thing - and not two separate physical entities?

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post #5287 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
You are going to love the 995. I got to watch a 995 demo this weekend in a dedicated theater right after installation by my friend dealer/installer and right out of the box was one of the best pictures I ever watched in my life. He did go into the service menu and did some changes before showing any movie material. Pretty sure he turned off item 21 and something else that I don't remember. In two weeks he is installing a Z1 so most likely I will go to see that one as well. Unfortunately, I cannot afford either so more than enjoyment is a torture test for me
Thanks. Trust me, i'd love for the 885 to be so close, in order to have a new unit and another big new toy.
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post #5288 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
When I close the Lens iris (manual aperture) there is no Yellow whatsoever.

BTW I always thought that NX7 and 9 had two Iris mechanisms - one for Lens and other for 'Dynamic' . Are they physically the same thing - and not two separate physical entities?
There are indeed two separate iris mechanisms. Dynamic operates only one of the two, the lens iris; Manual operates both (lens iris and lamp iris).
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post #5289 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
When I close the Lens iris (manual aperture) there is no Yellow whatsoever.

BTW I always thought that NX7 and 9 had two Iris mechanisms - one for Lens and other for 'Dynamic' . Are they physically the same thing - and not two separate physical entities?
They are two different Iris mechanism. One is the lens iris which you can see working and closing down in a diamond shape. The other is the lamp iris which is inside the projector and can't be seen. I believe lamp iris is more of a rectangular shape and you can hear it as you change iris positions in manual mode.
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post #5290 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
Not likely. The dynamic iris is the lens iris. It should be full spectrum at that point. My guess is they need to tweak the dynamic gamma a bit hopefully with a firmware update.


Exactly. Manually closing the iris has no effect.

It’s just the gamma manipulation when in “dynamic” mode, that looks to be the cause of whites turning yellow.

JVC just needs to tweak the DI software. This isn’t a hardware problem.


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post #5291 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
Exactly. Manually closing the iris has no effect.

It’s just the gamma manipulation when in “dynamic” mode, that looks to be the cause of whites turning yellow.

JVC just needs to tweak the DI software. This isn’t a hardware problem.


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Yep and JVC is aware.
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post #5292 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yep and JVC is aware.
I had a chance to investigate why DI on HDR is not anywhere near as effective as on SDR; and I came up with a scene ehich demonstrates exactly what is happening.

This is i believe related to the gamma shift to yellow that I can collaborate as well. Also when the iris is changing you loose alot of colour saturation until it settles.

With a HDR image with white scrolling text on a black background, with little enought text so the DI engages (I tested this with the credits scroll in Venom, but it should show on anything similar) this is with auto tone mapping on, CMD off.

DI OFF: White text
DI ON: Text is brighter and has a yellow tint. Black is no darker

The gamma adjustments applied with DI brightens the image too much to the point that DI is practically useless on HDR.
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post #5293 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Purple X View Post
I had a chance to investigate why DI on HDR is not anywhere near as effective as on SDR; and I came up with a scene ehich demonstrates exactly what is happening.

This is i believe related to the gamma shift to yellow that I can collaborate as well. Also when the iris is changing you loose alot of colour saturation until it settles.

With a HDR image with white scrolling text on a black background, with little enought text so the DI engages (I tested this with the credits scroll in Venom, but it should show on anything similar) this is with auto tone mapping on, CMD off.

DI OFF: White text
DI ON: Text is brighter and has a yellow tint. Black is no darker

The gamma adjustments applied with DI brightens the image too much to the point that DI is practically useless on HDR.
Do we know the Lumen output of the RS2000 in LOW lamp?
I have a newly delivered RS2000 and love the projector's image but don't love the high lamp noise,

I'm currently running at 0.95 gain 135" screen and wondering the benefit of going to a 1.3 gain screen.
My hypothesis is the lumen gain from the screen may equal the lumen loss from high lamp to low lamp?

I just can't find the ....DATA. (I'm a Brit living in the USA so am used to making data based decisions unlike .....some). ;-)

(ouch!)
;-*
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post #5294 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple X View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yep and JVC is aware.
I had a chance to investigate why DI on HDR is not anywhere near as effective as on SDR; and I came up with a scene ehich demonstrates exactly what is happening.

This is i believe related to the gamma shift to yellow that I can collaborate as well. Also when the iris is changing you loose alot of colour saturation until it settles.

With a HDR image with white scrolling text on a black background, with little enought text so the DI engages (I tested this with the credits scroll in Venom, but it should show on anything similar) this is with auto tone mapping on, CMD off.

DI OFF: White text
DI ON: Text is brighter and has a yellow tint. Black is no darker

The gamma adjustments applied with DI brightens the image too much to the point that DI is practically useless on HDR.
Well I just tested my nx9 as well. Same issue... with DI on regardless on iris level, white text on a black background is indeed yellow. With DI off, it’s a nice bright white. Hope they fix it soon.

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post #5295 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by boston cymro View Post
Do we know the Lumen output of the RS2000 in LOW lamp?

I have a newly delivered RS2000 and love the projector's image but don't love the high lamp noise,



I'm currently running at 0.95 gain 135" screen and wondering the benefit of going to a 1.3 gain screen.

My hypothesis is the lumen gain from the screen may equal the lumen loss from high lamp to low lamp?



I just can't find the ....DATA. (I'm a Brit living in the USA so am used to making data based decisions unlike .....some). ;-)



(ouch!)

;-*


I just measured my RS2000 in low lamp, iris open, shortest throw, and have 1170 lumens. Measured with a Minolta LS100.



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post #5296 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:22 PM
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Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread

Been doing some direct comparisons between my RS600 and the RS2000.

I am testing them side by side my theater room. I am filling as large of the screen area as I can with the throw distance.

Currently projecting 134” wide 16:9, with ST130 perf, so roughly a 1.2 gain. [

My new RS2000 with 1 hour on lamp gave me 20fL or 1216 lumens on low power with iris wide open. (Accounting for full 17:9 panel)

Interesting part, my RS600 with 1560 hours on original lamp measured 18fL or 1052 lumens on low power with iris wide open!!!

Pretty shocking how close they are in light output. Haven’t tested both on high power yet.

I will also note the DI on the RS2000 doesn’t seem to be near as aggressive as it is on the RS600. Using Intersteller Blu-ray 53:30, the stars stay nice and bright on the 2000 where they are very dim on the 600, but the background space on the 600 remains quite a bit darker, where the 2000 is slightly more grey, when compared to the 600.

The RS2000 looks fantastic with true 4K content, but the RS600 with eshift 4K still can hold its own amazingly well.




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post #5297 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
Been doing some direct comparisons between my RS600 and the RS2000.

I am testing them side by side my theater room. I am filling as large of the screen area as I can with the throw distance.

Currently projecting 134” wide 16:9, with ST130 perf, so roughly a 1.2 gain. [

My new RS2000 with 1 hour on lamp gave me 20fL or 1170 lumens on low power with iris wide open.

Interesting part, my RS600 with 1560 hours on original lamp measured 18fL or 1052 lumens on low power with iris wide open!!!

Pretty shocking how close they are in light output. Haven’t tested both on high power yet.


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It is the same lamp, just a different housing. Maybe your RS600 lamp was on the brighter side, and it's held up really well, and the RS2000 lamp is on the dimmer side. Lamps can vary as much as 10% new out of the box. And folks have seen new lamps actually get a bit brighter initially. Who knows ! Measure again in 50 or 100 hours.

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post #5298 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:29 PM
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^^ same lamp, and they hold up well with age!

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post #5299 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Thank you for confirming - this gives me comfort that I am not the only one and JVC will probably issue a fix.

I am just hoping this is indeed a gamma / firmware issue. Hopefully the Dynamic iris itself is not causing interference with the Blue color in the light path physically.
Is this the same issue when in DI Auto 1 & 2?
Didnt they say the old models shifted gamma in Auto1, if so is this the same in the NX range?

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post #5300 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
As I posted earlier, my NX7 has been having issue of adding yellow tint to content whenever Auto iris is engaged.

I took a series of picture with Manual and Auto iris (which I also sent to JVC).

This yellowing only happens when Auto Iris is engaged - at differenr settings of Manual Iris there is no yellow.


This cant be normal - has to be a defect right?
The auto iris clamping down far enough always makes some of the whites yellowish. But that big box photo seems like it wouldn't clamp far on that. Can you change that image making the box bigger and bigger and see at which point it whitens up?

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post #5301 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Colozeus View Post
This is exactly what happens with my unit. Even after running a gamma only calibration with autocal and a spyder 5 pro. Also on 1.20. It happens in both sdr and hdr patterns. I’m going to inform my dealer about this.


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I don't think this is a defect. I think its an issue in calibration.

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post #5302 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:41 PM
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I can't help but laugh at how much larger the RS2000 is than the last gen. It looks like it could squash the 600!
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post #5303 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by avsBuddy View Post
How about brightness of Sony vs JVC? Were they compatible calibrated?

Crashing shadow detail is what I didn’t like about previous generation JVC, while Sony is capable of displaying a lot of detail near black. Sas to hear that new JVC continue to struggle with that.
The 285/295/385 is 1500 lumens max on high lamp, and sony runs 55% high lamp for low. I measured my 285ES around 1350 lumens on high and about 750 lumens on low. It was quite bad.
The RS1000 will be closer to 1270 lumens on low and 1700 lumens on high (might vary slightly with bulb variance). You'll find low lamp on JVC close to high lamp on these Sony models. Even the 695ES still runs its low lamp at 55% of high, so you're stuck at barely 1000 lumens on low if you're lucky but more likely 900 or so lumens.

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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
I wonder if JVC has tried the RS4500 deflectors on the other models, to see if they can reduce the apparent noise level? If these work well, I'd love to buy some
These make a significant difference on my RS4500 for noise reduction. I love them.

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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
Cancelled my NX9 order to go with the N7. I think these units will be a bit of an inbetween solution and with all that is going on especially around laser I doubz I will keep this generation for too long. Therefore I went with the N7 as the loss in the next 24 months will be way less in comparison to the NX9!
Good call man. If I still was waiting on an NX9 I'd be doing the same thing.

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post #5304 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Thank you for confirming - this gives me comfort that I am not the only one and JVC will probably issue a fix.

I am just hoping this is indeed a gamma / firmware issue. Hopefully the Dynamic iris itself is not causing interference with the Blue color in the light path physically.
No if it were physical problem, you could reproduce it by moving manual iris to -15. While that's not the most clamped you get, it should be about the most you get on that black with big white box image.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
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post #5305 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
Personally I believe you should use the chart as a rough guide, but certainly not some kind of gold standard or hard rule.

I have a 65" in my living room, sitting about 7-8 feet back, and 4k is without a question, significantly sharper and an order of magnitude better image than 1080p. Yet the chart would tell me it "isn't worth it". Sorry, the chart is wrong. It is WELL worth it. It doesn't mean I am content with 1080p on this TV, just that I can definitely notice the difference from 1080p to 4k UHD blu ray. Not quite as much with 4k streamed, so perhaps it isn't so much about the number of pixels as it is the quality of the image... ?
This is absolutely not proof that the chart is wrong. The increased bitrate on the 4K source all by itself can provide a much sharper more detailed image without the resolution, itself being part of it. The 1080p is not HDR and contrast / color changes alone can provide what appears to be a much sharper and more detailed image. There are tons of factors here and 4k vs 1080p cannot really be isolated outside of running an HTPC for side-by-side comparisons.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #5306 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I just measured my RS2000 in low lamp, iris open, shortest throw, and have 1170 lumens. Measured with a Minolta LS100.



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Hey how did you measure your lumens? Did you do your math on the 16:9 screen (which si wrong) or extrapolate it to a 17:9 screen since that's what the panel actually is?
Lux to Lumens on your 135" screen:
RS620: (Lux / 10.76) x 55
RS2000: (Lux / 10.76) x 57.14

If you did it wrong, the new lumens measurement would be 1216.
Also, I've found most my bulbs got a little brighter at about 100 hours and after being powered on for 30 minutes or so.
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Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #5307 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 06:13 PM
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Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Hey how did you measure your lumens? Did you do your math on the 16:9 screen (which si wrong) or extrapolate it to a 17:9 screen since that's what the panel actually is?

Lux to Lumens on your 135" screen:

RS620: (Lux / 10.76) x 55

RS2000: (Lux / 10.76) x 57.14



If you did it wrong, the new lumens measurement would be 1216.

Also, I've found most my bulbs got a little brighter at about 100 hours and after being powered on for 30 minutes or so.


Good point. I did not account for the 17:9 panel as I was taking the actual fL reading off the screen, but I didn’t account for the slightly wider screen area of the 17:9 panel. So slightly brighter, I will modify my post!


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Last edited by ccool96; 02-11-2019 at 06:16 PM.
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post #5308 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by avsBuddy View Post
How about brightness of Sony vs JVC? Were they compatible calibrated?

Crashing shadow detail is what I didn’t like about previous generation JVC, while Sony is capable of displaying a lot of detail near black. Sas to hear that new JVC continue to struggle with that.
Post 687 addresses this and so does Kris's post 707
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57586630
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57587866
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post #5309 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
Good point. I did not account for the 17:9 panel as I was taking the actual fL reading off the screen, but I didn’t account for the slightly wider screen area of the 17:9 panel. So slightly brighter, I will modify my post!


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OK
So in going from 0.95 gain to 1.3 gain, that should take the 1200 lumens to 1642 equivalent.
Hmm, that's getting closer to the 1900 high lamp setting,

Is there some reason that JVC could not have provided a medium lamp setting on these new units? I seem to recall the RS4500 having high, medium and low but obviously a different source
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post #5310 of 17974 Old 02-11-2019, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by boston cymro View Post
OK
So in going from 0.95 gain to 1.3 gain, that should take the 1200 lumens to 1642 equivalent.
Hmm, that's getting closer to the 1900 high lamp setting,

Is there some reason that JVC could not have provided a medium lamp setting on these new units? I seem to recall the RS4500 having high, medium and low but obviously a different source
FYI, Mid laser on RS4500 is about 70% of high laser. Low lamp on JVC is about 72% of high lamp. So it seems adding a low to lamps, JVC would be reducing further for low and calling Mid what its current mid is.

Remember, Sony low lamp is 55% of high. JVC low is 72% of high.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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