Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 247 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7381 of 16526 Old 03-08-2019, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowBoy View Post
DLCPhoto, I agree about not being impressed with the comparison. I do have a question for all you JVC owners, as I have only owned one Epson. At the 7:00 mark he has a paused picture of Tom Cruise. The picture seems to be constantly pulsing. Is that the DI pumping people keep talking about or is it caused from the video recorder he is filming it with or something else? It looks pretty off-putting whatever it is.
No, DI pumping occurs as the Iris is adjusting to changes in the scene. It'll never happen in static content like a paused film. I've never seen it on any content so far in about 100 hours with my RS2000. Others who have seen the previous generation and the new generation have reported that it no longer appears to be an issue with these models.
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post #7382 of 16526 Old 03-08-2019, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Did you have a chance to test the black floor compared to your NX9 with the dynamic iris engaged?
The N5 measure 400.000;1 and my Nx9 980.000:1 so yes you see the difference.
But compared to other brands, no contest native at all. Huge difference,

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post #7383 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
The N5 measure 400.000;1 and my Nx9 980.000:1 so yes you see the difference.
But compared to other brands, no contest native at all. Huge difference,
Are those dynamic contrast figures you measured yourself? Because they're spot on with the JVC marketing material and so far no one else has measured right to advertised spec, yet.
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post #7384 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
The N5 measure 400.000;1 and my Nx9 980.000:1 so yes you see the difference.
But compared to other brands, no contest native at all. Huge difference,
Dj Dee, gee I wish we could get those geat little fade to black boxes you have infront of your NX9 built into our JVCs, it would be amazing and Im sure manni would love it too!
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post #7385 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
So just to be clear - you’re outputting HDR2020 from the 820 and not SDR2020?
That's correct: HDR
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post #7386 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Are those dynamic contrast figures you measured yourself? Because they're spot on with the JVC marketing material and so far no one else has measured right to advertised spec, yet.
No one has got "Anywhere" near that figure for the NX9... ( actual measurement)
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post #7387 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 01:53 AM
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These are actual measurements from Dylans, ( Seegs) N7/RS2000


Here are some out of the box contrast measurements for my RS2000:

High Lamp, minimum zoom, iris fully open: 29,400, iris @ - 7: 39,563:1, iris @ -15; 62,100:1

High Lamp, max zoom, iris fully open: 23,450:1, iris @-7: 38,550:1, iris @-15: 50,800:1

Maximum dynamic contrast: 176,850:1, this indicates a 6x contrast multiplier.
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post #7388 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
No one has got "Anywhere" near that figure for the NX9... ( actual measurement)
I have visited Dj Dee several times, and he got those results. His NX9 is so amazing. He measured while I was there with Klein K10A.

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post #7389 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Per Johnny View Post
I have visited Dj Dee several times, and he got those results. His NX9 is so amazing. He measured while I was there with Klein K10A.
Must be a "Super" "Super" "Golden Sample"..
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post #7390 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Must be a "Super" "Super" "Golden Sample"..
There must exist some way to measure it I'm sure, though it might only be in the very centre of the screen.. Chances are you're in unusable torch mode though to get the very most light out of the engine...
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post #7391 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
There must exist some way to measure it I'm sure, though it might only be in the very centre of the screen.. Chances are you're in unusable torch mode though to get the very most light out of the engine...

I understand there is some skeptical about this, I was also, so I asked to see it myself. It was measured after calibrating.

I took also with me my own meter, and it measured within +/- 2% the same contrast numbers.

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post #7392 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
These are actual measurements from Dylans, ( Seegs) N7/RS2000


Here are some out of the box contrast measurements for my RS2000:

High Lamp, minimum zoom, iris fully open: 29,400, iris @ - 7: 39,563:1, iris @ -15; 62,100:1

High Lamp, max zoom, iris fully open: 23,450:1, iris @-7: 38,550:1, iris @-15: 50,800:1

Maximum dynamic contrast: 176,850:1, this indicates a 6x contrast multiplier.
I did measure higher than this on my rs2000 (using my Minolta T10), all in low lamp. There isn't a huge difference between low and high lamp contrast-wise usually.

Max with the DI was 235,000:1 in high bright mode (uncalibrated), fully open, which is usually the mode used to get the specs. Multiplier around 7. That was close to mid-zoom, so not the best the unit can offer.

Native contrast ranged from 33,239:1 (iris open, max bright) to 70,500:1 (iris closed, max bright).

At D65/low lamp/with filter, the mode in which I did most of my measurements as this is what I use for UHD Bluray playback, it ranged from 31,042:1 (iris open) to 56,667:1 (iris fully closed).

All measurements (including ANSI contrast) and detailed comments in the contrast section of the calibration thread for the 2019 models (see my sig).

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post #7393 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I did measure higher than this on my rs2000 (using my Minolta T10).

Max with the DI was 235,000:1 in high bright mode (uncalibrated), fully open, which is usually the mode used to get the specs.
Yep, that seems realistic .....and a 'LONG" way short of 980000:1 ....i know its an N7/RS2000 but "Spec" wise were talking Native 80000:1( N7) versus 100000:1 ( NX9)

@Javs i think measured around 400000:1 ( Dynamic) with his X9500

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post #7394 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Yep, that seems realistic .....and a 'LONG" way short of 980000:1 ....i know its an N7/RS2000 but "Spec" wise were talking Native 80000:1( N7) versus 100000:1 ( NX9)

@Javs i think measured around 400000:1 with his X9500
I measured above 500,000:1 (dynamic) with my rs500 (native was around 40,000 at D65 with the iris fully open, so not that different from the rs2000 native around 30,000), also at mid throw (same room, same shelf), so closer to the RS500 specs at the time. But the DI on the eshift models closes much further than the DI on the native 4K models. In fact the DI on the older models has a position that is further closed than the closest manual position. None of this in the new implementation.

This is one of the points I've been asking JVC to improve on the new models: close the DI further on fade to black (and faster, as the new DI seems also slower), even if that causes pumping on the credits and a few freak scenes. I'd take that over yellowing and gamma artifacts during the film any time . This is why I'm asking for a "fade to black only" auto 3 mode, with zero gamma manipulation and the closest possible iris position.

I really hope that they are going to not only fix the gamma bugs but also improve the black floor performance of the new DI implementation.

Otherwise I might think that they are cynically keeping the DI half open to give an advantage to the Z1/RS4500 during side by side demos, especially compared to the rs3000.

I would really like to know how they measure the 800,000:1 specs for the DI on the RS2000. I have asked, but haven't got a reply yet. It's not with max bright / iris open, which was usually the way to get close to the specs.

I hear that JVC is working on improving the DI, so hopefully we'll see some improvements soon.
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post #7395 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 02:48 AM
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I will check with the klein K10A against the projector now.
Will give you results.
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post #7396 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You sure that still applies on the new series? I think all that stopped this year.
Maybe it is something special with RS units in Canada. For the US, my RS3000 warranty supplement reads, "All JVC RS Series, NX Series and X Series (excluding the DLA-RS4500) projectors now carry a three (3) year limited warranty as per the terms on the attached Limited Warranty Card and further described below."
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post #7397 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
There must exist some way to measure it I'm sure, though it might only be in the very centre of the screen.. Chances are you're in unusable torch mode though to get the very most light out of the engine...
As explained, usually the way to get close to the specs with the DI was manual iris fully open, uncalibrated (high bright), longest throw. You wouldn't get the specs, but you would get close (well, if half the specs is close).

For example, with the RS500, the specs for the DI were 1,200,000:1 (10 multiplier from the specs of 120,000:1), I got above 500,000:1 in the mode above, close to mid throw. Of course, always the centre of the screen only, that would drop otherwise especially if there are significant bright corners (which neither my rs500 nor my rs2000 have).

With the rs2000, 235,000 is very far from 800,000:1 (same multiplier of 10 from the native specs of 80,000:1), unless you take the darkest and brightest values in different modes, which would certainly not be an acceptable way to get there.

The most obvious explanation for being so far from the specs is the half open position of the DI when it's at its closest position on the new models.

The native is close to specs, so if they don't allow the DI to close further, I don't see how the dynamic specs can be met, or even how we could get close to them, as we could with the eshift models.
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post #7398 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBoy View Post
DLCPhoto, I agree about not being impressed with the comparison. I do have a question for all you JVC owners, as I have only owned one Epson. At the 7:00 mark he has a paused picture of Tom Cruise. The picture seems to be constantly pulsing. Is that the DI pumping people keep talking about or is it caused from the video recorder he is filming it with or something else? It looks pretty off-putting whatever it is.
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Originally Posted by mattztt View Post
No, DI pumping occurs as the Iris is adjusting to changes in the scene. It'll never happen in static content like a paused film. I've never seen it on any content so far in about 100 hours with my RS2000. Others who have seen the previous generation and the new generation have reported that it no longer appears to be an issue with these models.
As mattztt points out, this is definitely *not* iris pumping. It is some quirk of his video recording, as shown via YouTube.

Yet another reason to disregard this 'comparison.'

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post #7399 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 03:43 AM
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Here 100% accurate measurements, measured against the lens on the N5. The last posted measurements was measured on screen when calibrated.
Here measurements faced to the projector as close as possible to get the accuracy.





High lamp mode
iris open 21100:1/ dynamic auto iris 149800:1
iris -7 26000:1/ dynamic auto iris 129000:1
iris -15 35000:1/ dynamic auto iris 90000:1

Low lamp mode
iris open 24000:1/ dynamic auto iris 210000:1
iris -7 29000:1/ dynamic auto iris 112000:1
iris -15 38000:1/ dynamic auto iris 72000:1

Ansi contrast measured the same way 150:1 High and low lamp iris open. Then all 12 fields average total on both 150:1
Compared the NX9 averidge 250:1, also see that the NX9 with auto iris2 really beats the N5 extremely hard. Its almost complete black on my NX9 with iris engaged. The Klein K10A 35 cm from projector lens with diffuser.
All measurements is in max zoom 110 inch screen size.

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post #7400 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
As explained, usually the way to get close to the specs with the DI was manual iris fully open, uncalibrated (high bright), longest throw. You wouldn't get the specs, but you would get close (well, if half the specs is close).

For example, with the RS500, the specs for the DI were 1,200,000:1 (10 multiplier from the specs of 120,000:1), I got above 500,000:1 in the mode above, close to mid throw. Of course, always the centre of the screen only, that would drop otherwise especially if there are significant bright corners (which neither my rs500 nor my rs2000 have).

With the rs2000, 235,000 is very far from 800,000:1 (same multiplier of 10 from the native specs of 80,000:1), unless you take the darkest and brightest values in different modes, which would certainly not be an acceptable way to get there.

The most obvious explanation for being so far from the specs is the half open position of the DI when it's at its closest position on the new models.

The native is close to specs, so if they don't allow the DI to close further, I don't see how the dynamic specs can be met, or even how we could get close to them, as we could with the eshift models.
I've not measured DI, but on my X7900 I get to the published spec easily for iris -15 native.
If what you say is correct re: DI behaviour, this would mean folk running at -15 would have no DI benefit... Is that the case?
I've seen more than one post here mentioning different DI behaviour in terms of how far the DI closes the lens iris down depending on input signal type ("SDR" vs "HDR"). I wonder if this is coming into play in your observations.
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post #7401 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 04:14 AM
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A fellow AVS member and myself went to view a NX7 today. Someone who was one of the first to receive the projector in Australia was kind enough to let us into their home to see it.

We didn’t take any measurements, just went to take a look to see one in action and to ensure we were both purchasing the right projector for our tastes/requirements.

We tested a variety of 4K and 3D content played from an Oppo along with an ATV.

It was good to see firsthand things that have been mentioned on the forums - to see if anything would put us off or turned out to not be much of an issue for either of us.

First off fan noise. In low lamp, with the projector right above our heads, it was inaudible. In high lamp we could hear it (just) but in our opinion it was negligible and as soon as content was played it was inaudible. Either my plasma tv or PS4 are louder than the projector was in high lamp. No noisy DI.

Sync times, while obvious, weren’t so long to be an issue, and that was with low latency off.

We saw the yellowing on opening white credits - didn’t distract us, but we could see it was there.

Picture quality - WOW! If I could swear on here I would. It was frickin incredible. We watched the opening scene of Lucy with the monkey by the river, just wow! Same with all content we watched, really amazing, often breathtaking.

We also watched some blu ray sports content (football) with CMD on low, and it was very impressive. You could make out blades of grass on the pitch. No ghosting or motion issues. All nice and smooth.

Pacific rim in HDR was very impressive too. You could easily see the stitching on the suit of Stacker Pentecost, and with the fight scenes - combining light and dark - it was a good example of what the projector can do.

Black were very impressive even considering it was during the day in a non light controlled room.

We spent over an hour viewing content and left convinced this was the projector to purchase.

Now back waiting to get one!




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post #7402 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I've not measured DI, but on my X7900 I get to the published spec easily for iris -15 native.
If what you say is correct re: DI behaviour, this would mean folk running at -15 would have no DI benefit... Is that the case?
I've seen more than one post here mentioning different DI behaviour in terms of how far the DI closes the lens iris down depending on input signal type ("SDR" vs "HDR"). I wonder if this is coming into play in your observations.
The DI behaviour isn't fundamentally different. Here is how it works:

- The on value is defined by the manual iris position. The DI can't open wider than the manual position set.
- The only possible gain with the DI is on the black value.
- Hence the biggest improvement with the DI is always iris fully open (the larger the multiplier). This also comes at the price of more visible gamma and pumping artifacts.
- The closer the manual iris, the closer the result will be to native (the smaller the multiplier), and the least pumping and gamma artifacts
- Native have always met the specs if measured at -15, long throw, uncalibrated (high bright)
- DI has usually met at least half the specs if measured at 0, long throw, uncalibrated (high bright). This is measured in an SDR calibration, to answer your question above.
- Auto1 and Auto2 measure the same re on/off contrast. They differ by gamma manipulation (and possibly speed, I haven't checked) only.
- Any difference between SDR and HDR have to be due to the manual iris position. HDR tends to have a more open iris position, hence the higher DI measurements in that mode.
- Gamma (PQ for HDR or Power Gamma for SDR) should make zero difference for on/off contrast, as unless there is a bug gamma never influence 0% and 100%, which are used for contrast measurements.
- So in the same calibration mode (same manual iris setting, same lamp, and filter, etc), you should be able to change the gamma curve between PQ and any power gamma value without having any impact on on/off measurements.
- There shouldn't be a significant difference between low lamp and high lamp re on/off contrast measurements, but there can be a minor one.
- The eshift models had a "-16" iris position that was much further closed down than -15, hence couldn't be reached with the manual iris.
- The new models don't have this "-16" iris position, well, they do but the difference with -15 is much smaller.

To give you an example, with my beloved X500 (rs49), the difference in black level between -15 and "-16" was as follow: black was 0.18 lux at -15, and 0.05 lux at "-16" with the DI enabled, irrespective of the manual iris position. This means that the native at D65 was from 26,000:1 fully open to 46,800:1 fully closed (short throw at the time), but the dynamic was 422,000:1 (fully open) to 229,000:1 (fully closed), with a max of 600,000:1 dynamic in bright mode.

With the rs2000, the black level (not comparable in absolute values, the meter-to-lens distance wasn't the same) was 0.06 lux at -15, and 0.04 at "-16". So almost the same at closest iris position, and as you open the iris, "-16" goes up to 0.06 at -10 and 0.07 at 0. The native at D65 goes from 31,000:1 to 56,600:1 (mid-throw), but the dynamic goes from 212,429:1 to 82,500:1, with a max of 235,000:1 in bright mode.

It is this difference that explains the low dynamic contrast in the new models:

- less difference between -15 and "-16"
- "-16" not as fully closed in the new models as in earlier models.

Again, all the detailed measurements are in the new calibration thread, so it's easy to observe how the DI behaves in relation to the manual iris.
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post #7403 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Here 100% accurate measurements, against the N5. The last posted measurements was measured on screen when calibrated.
Here measurements faced to the projector as close as possible to get the accuracy.

High lamp mode
iris open 21100:1/ dynamic auto iris 149800:1
iris -7 26000:1/ dynamic auto iris 129000:1
iris open 35000:1/ dynamic auto iris 90000:1

Low lamp mode
iris open 24000:1/ dynamic auto iris 210000:1
iris -7 29000:1/ dynamic auto iris 112000:1
iris open 38000:1/ dynamic auto iris 72000:1

Ansi contrast measured the same way 150:1 High and low lamp iris open. Then all 12 fields average total on both 150:1
Compared the NX9 averidge 250:1, also see that the NX9 with auto iris2 really beats the N5 extremely hard. Its almost complete black on my NX9 with iris engaged. The Klein K10A 35 cm from projector lens with diffuser.
All measurements is in max zoom 110 inch screen size.
Thanks but super confusing. The first two lines of each set are NX5, and the last line are NX9?
I don't understand why the NX9 is beating the NX5 in auto2. Both numbers are lower for the NX9 (if I understand your numbers correctly based on native on/off numbers). Did you forget a zero for the NX9 numbers?

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post #7404 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
These are actual measurements from Dylans, ( Seegs) N7/RS2000


Here are some out of the box contrast measurements for my RS2000:

High Lamp, minimum zoom, iris fully open: 29,400, iris @ - 7: 39,563:1, iris @ -15; 62,100:1

High Lamp, max zoom, iris fully open: 23,450:1, iris @-7: 38,550:1, iris @-15: 50,800:1

Maximum dynamic contrast: 176,850:1, this indicates a 6x contrast multiplier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Johnny View Post
I have visited Dj Dee several times, and he got those results. His NX9 is so amazing. He measured while I was there with Klein K10A.
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Must be a "Super" "Super" "Golden Sample"..
Well what FW is it running? Remember Arrow's was getting close to 800K:1 dynamic on the first release then he upgraded FW which helped a lot of low ADL measurements but the 0% was at 175K:1 instead of 800K:1 after. I'm not sure why but no one ever mentioned this again or indicated it should be brought up to JVC.

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Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #7405 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
They should work fine.

If anyone curious – I installed @Javs 1000 and 4000 curves on N7
To mess around with –-No issue installing on Win 10 – build -17134-523
Or connecting to JVC via Network cable –
The 1000 curves adds nice subtle uptick in overall brightness
compared to built in tone mapping-
I found the 4000 just blew everything out on titles I tried but guess from reading
It’s a more of specific setting to discs coded in particular way-
In summary I found the 1000 handy to have on custom curve –
It takes like 15 minutes to install and its always there if just want to try out-
Could probably get similar results messing around with all those sliders for 1/2 hour
but I don't enjoy that a all
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post #7406 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Here 100% accurate measurements, against taken on the N5. The last posted measurements was measured on screen when calibrated.

High lamp mode
iris open 21100:1/ dynamic auto iris 149800:1
iris -7 26000:1/ dynamic auto iris 129000:1
iris open -15 35000:1/ dynamic auto iris 90000:1

Low lamp mode
iris open 24000:1/ dynamic auto iris 210000:1
iris -7 29000:1/ dynamic auto iris 112000:1
iris open -15 38000:1/ dynamic auto iris 72000:1
I assume this is the corrected version of what you were trying to say?
If so, the N5 contrast destroys the 695ES as predicted. I wonder how the N5 compares in picture calmness and motion to the Sony.
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post #7407 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks but super confusing. The first two lines of each set are NX5, and the last line are NX9?
I don't understand why the NX9 is beating the NX5 in auto2. Both numbers are lower for the NX9 (if I understand your numbers correctly based on native on/off numbers). Did you forget a zero for the NX9 numbers?
Corrected hehe -15 to fast on the trigger
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Calibrator: Software: Calman Pro
Colorimeter: Klein K10A, Spectroradiometer: Jeti 1501
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Last edited by Dj Dee; 03-09-2019 at 05:22 AM.
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post #7408 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Everything is the N5, yes
Thanks, makes more sense. Are these at D65 or in high bright?

So your best DI measurement with the N5 is 210,000:1, not 400,000:1.

How about the NX9? How close are you getting to these 980,000:1

I get 235,000:1 max (high bright, iris open, close to mid-throw) with the RS2000 (NX7).
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post #7409 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks, makes more sense. Are these at D65 or in high bright?

So your best DI measurement with the N5 is 210,000:1, not 400,000:1.

How about the NX9? How close are you getting to these 980,000:1

I get 235,000:1 with the RS2000 (NX7).

Trid again with 35 cm from the lens in -13 and got 980000:1 + - 1%. With autoiris2
But black is measured very low, and white extremely high, I don't want to burn my K10A trying to measure any more correct closer lol
This might not be 100% accurate because decimals can be up and down.
I guess correct around 800000:1. With a konica minolta 1000000:1 so who knows. One thing for shore its good. And way better than my former RS600 or X7900 you see it.
And against the projector with diffuser in -13 Native contrast I get 99247:1 so 99000:1 At-15 I get 130000:1 40cm form projector.

I think also that it was to high, but have tried now with different meters and about the same.
I have for shore a good sample, and thank Bruce almighty for that, it cost way to much.

Projectors JVC NX9 :) , JVC X500, JVC RS400, Cine9
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Colorimeter: Klein K10A, Spectroradiometer: Jeti 1501
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post #7410 of 16526 Old 03-09-2019, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks, makes more sense. Are these at D65 or in high bright?

So your best DI measurement with the N5 is 210,000:1, not 400,000:1.

How about the NX9? How close are you getting to these 980,000:1

I get 235,000:1 max (high bright, iris open, close to mid-throw) with the RS2000 (NX7).
D65, I feel that no point using other, when that is the one I use.

Natural, D65, Rec709, gamma 2,2 before calibration.....

Projectors JVC NX9 :) , JVC X500, JVC RS400, Cine9
Calibrator: Software: Calman Pro
Colorimeter: Klein K10A, Spectroradiometer: Jeti 1501
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