Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 26 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #751 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
This is a shame, I kind of feel we've been led up the garden path a little here - I took it as gospel that it was the same lens, but if it's not delivering the same level of sharpness as the Z1, then its clearly not of the same quality (possible negative effects of the e-shift element or other possible issues notwithstanding).
It's possible that since now it's 'mass produced' there will be more sample variance now, need to wait on more feedback from people along with more people doing shootouts vs the Z1 before there can be more opinion on this.

The fact is, the price point for performance you get appears to be rather fantastic if it is anything approaching the Z1 sharpness for the amount of money. With Sony you have to pay a lot more in the US and Australia at least to get a comparable lens. That's a good thing!

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post #752 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 02:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Agreed, I don't think many people realise that the version of that pattern that Nigel is using has morphed many times from the original Brown Fox pattern that many have seen photo's off - and the text is now considerably smaller (over 10 times smaller I'd estimate).

In your photo were you using the new pattern that Nigel created (in his signature)?

Also if you wouldn't mind posting the comparison shots with the Z1 that others have mentioned, I'd like to see the difference.
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Sorry but it is not smaller at all. It's always been pixel level 4k text when I have used it.
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
See for yourself, same one I been using for well over a year. Nigel simply added vertical instances of the text and some single pixel patterns through the it. Otherwise the text has always been the same size.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qx7ydmyazq...%204k.png?dl=0
Absolutely correct @Javs . As you rightly say the pattern has always been the same size and resolution text.

How I changed the pattern specifically and only relates to:

(1) I rotated the text by 90-degree such that it now runs both horizontally and vertically, as opposed to only horizontally

(2) I added black text on white background, which was not present previously

(3) I added single pixel and two pixel native 4K resolution test patterns, which were not present previously

Best,
Nigel

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post #753 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Sorry but it is not smaller at all. It's always been pixel level 4k text when I have used it.
I was probably thinking of the older 1080P version.
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post #754 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I was probably thinking of the older 1080P version.
It actually used to be a 720p pattern initially. But if you view it 1:1 scaling you could view it on an 8k display and it will still be pixel level text

At least that's how I've always used it, with no scaling.

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post #755 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 03:15 AM
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I just got word from my dealer my N7 is ready for pick-up. This is europe Sweden.
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post #756 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 03:19 AM
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I just got word from my dealer my N7 is ready for pick-up. This is europe Sweden.
Post what you can after you get it.
Also curious as to how both his and your projector are as far as panel uniformity in dark scenes (the dreaded white corners).
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post #757 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
It actually used to be a 720p pattern initially. But if you view it 1:1 scaling you could view it on an 8k display and it will still be pixel level text
Yes I get that, but I meant in terms of photographing and comparing the resulting output, given a fairly constant/typical screen size its going to be easier to display the 1080p or 720p pattern than the native 4K pattern, simply due to the larger text/pixels and presumably easier for a camera to capture more clearly. I tried the 1080p pattern on my 760 last night and it looked great, then I tried the 4K pattern and it, well, didn't look great lol

I'm just making the point to some of the uninitiated that they may have seen photos of the 1080p pattern in the past, that is not going to be comparable to looking the Nigels photos of the 4K pattern now which are going to be an order of magnitude harder to accurately display on screen.
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post #758 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 03:24 AM
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I guess you could offset some of the camera lens issue just by taking the photo closer for the 4k version, so that it's the same relative size.
That is unless you already took the photo with the lens darn near touching the screen, in that case you might be out of luck.

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post #759 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Post what you can after you get it.
Also curious as to how both his and your projector are as far as panel uniformity in dark scenes (the dreaded white corners).
I have no measurement tools, only the trusty old eyes But I am still picky and sensitive about the image quality and processing so I will give some initial impressions. I am both excited and a bit scared actually because I have such high expectations. This will be replacing my near dead silent Sony VW-95ES, so that is what is my worry. DI-bug and fan noise. About the DI-bug though, since everyone seem to have it, all points to an easy firmware fix for this and I hope they make sure to release it ASAP.

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post #760 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Yes I get that, but I meant in terms of photographing and comparing the resulting output, given a fairly constant/typical screen size its going to be easier to display the 1080p or 720p pattern than the native 4K pattern, simply due to the larger text/pixels and presumably easier for a camera to capture more clearly. I tried the 1080p pattern on my 760 last night and it looked great, then I tried the 4K pattern and it, well, didn't look great lol



I'm just making the point to some of the uninitiated that they may have seen photos of the 1080p pattern in the past, that is not going to be comparable to looking the Nigels photos of the 4K pattern now which are going to be an order of magnitude harder to accurately display on screen.
Nobody has really consistently shared the 1080p pattern results to my knowledge. Pretty much all of them are the 4k versions. Oh maybe highjinx did once but I got him to post the proper 4k shots. I think Nigel would agree. We've been throwing this pattern around for a while now.

One should be looking at native pixel level text only otherwise the point of the pattern is lost. I.e. if your projector accepts 4k resolution don't look at the 1080p version.

For the uninitiated
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post #761 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I guess you could offset some of the camera lens issue just by taking the photo closer for the 4k version, so that it's the same relative size.

That is unless you already took the photo with the lens darn near touching the screen, in that case you might be out of luck.
Yeah that's why Arrow takes 9 images in total and then also one from further back.
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post #762 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 04:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Yes I get that, but I meant in terms of photographing and comparing the resulting output, given a fairly constant/typical screen size its going to be easier to display the 1080p or 720p pattern than the native 4K pattern, simply due to the larger text/pixels and presumably easier for a camera to capture more clearly. I tried the 1080p pattern on my 760 last night and it looked great, then I tried the 4K pattern and it, well, didn't look great lol

I'm just making the point to some of the uninitiated that they may have seen photos of the 1080p pattern in the past, that is not going to be comparable to looking the Nigels photos of the 4K pattern now which are going to be an order of magnitude harder to accurately display on screen.
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Nobody has really consistently shared the 1080p pattern results to my knowledge. Pretty much all of them are the 4k versions. Oh maybe highjinx did once but I got him to post the proper 4k shots. I think Nigel would agree. We've been throwing this pattern around for a while now.

One should be looking at native pixel level text only otherwise the point of the pattern is lost. I.e. if your projector accepts 4k resolution don't look at the 1080p version.

For the uninitiated
These are all excellent points

Some folks have reacted badly to my photos showing what is the performance of this, my first of 5 number in total JVC RS3000/NX9 units that I will be evaluating, with respect to this latest 4K Quick Brown Fox test pattern... wherein it should be noted that this latest version is an ultimate torture test for native 4K projectors. Wherein, let's just say I would recommend waiting until after you see how other competing projectors compare before making judgements and conclusions

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post #763 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 04:02 AM
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Does show perfect and can be adjusted. Without any adjustment show 68 clear.


Here a iPhone photo.

Thank you very much!

Did you have to adjust the brightness control at all?

Or was this out of the box brightness settings?

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post #764 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 04:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess you could offset some of the camera lens issue just by taking the photo closer for the 4k version, so that it's the same relative size.

That is unless you already took the photo with the lens darn near touching the screen, in that case you might be out of luck.
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Yeah that's why Arrow takes 9 images in total and then also one from further back.
Precisely

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post #765 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Question; how do you quantify "medium throw zoom"? Is it basically the setting needed in your theater to fill your screen? Or are you measuring the screen size at shortest and longest zoom and then setting the zoom to the exact middle screen size?

It's a question I guess of repeatability - middle zoom makes it more difficult for folk to reproduce results unless there is a good procedure to set the same zoom, whereas minimum and / or maximum are easy because you just drive the lens til it stops.
(1) Change the projector zoom setting to minimum zoom
(2) Mark the left and right edges of the minimum zoom projected image (e.g. using post-it notes)
(3) Change the projector zoom setting to maximum zoom
(4) Mark the left and right edges of the maximum zoom projected image (e.g. using post-it notes)
(5) Measure and mark the corresponding half-way points
(6) Change the projector zoom setting such that the projected image matches the marked half-way points = medium (midpoint) zoom

You're welcome

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post #766 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 04:38 AM
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With all this pixel talk...


ARROW are you able to pull up an all white background, get close enough to the screen and get the camera close enough and steady enough to make out the individual pixels? AKA see the screen door between them?

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post #767 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 04:39 AM
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Well he has taken images which showed the difference plain as day to me. At least with the unit he has there it's a clear difference even in photography which I was pretty stunned by and questioned it just like you are doing

Regarding many of our surprise on initial lens performance RS3000 vs RS4500 :

Here's some good high level explanations from Kodak that makes it plausible that the same (or even slightly improved) lens still may not perform as well overall in lamp based as it does in laser based projectors.



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post #768 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 04:41 AM
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post #769 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the work and for posting the numbers about cr.

What I and other miss was the cr. at max. zoom (biggest picture) as you agree to measure if I remember right.
Best is to do it at min. and max. zoom.
But I bet this cr. will be at max. zoom (biggest picture) in the 25-26.000:1 range.

So it looks like the JVC X9 had with about 26.000:1 native about double the cr. on off compare to the Sony projectors as there are in the 12-14.000:1 range.
For ansi cr. the Sony will be beat the X9 as many Sony 4K Pr. are in the 350:1 range so about 60% better here.

Lets see if the X7 or X5 will have more ansi cr.
If so tell JVC that we do not like the 8k e shift marketing as I had post it creates only disadvantages!
I cannot measure ANSI with my screen at maximum zoom because my screen is not large enough to do so, so I did the next best thing

We don't all have 7 metre wide screens

Because: (1) I am measuring the full range including not only ON/OFF and ANSI but also all of 1%, 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%, 10%, and 20% ADL; and (2) All of these for NATIVE, and LIMITED DYNAMIC, and FULL DYNAMIC; and (3) The dynamic contrast functionality currently has a bug and is malfunctioning... I chose to take the one set of measurements using the medium / mid-point zoom for the time being, or else a waste of time

I will take the full range of contrast measurements at both minimum as well as maximum zoom, AFTER JVC has fixed the bug that is causing the dynamic contrast to malfunction.

And by then I will also be setup with much larger screen that can accomodate measuring ANSI at maximum zoom

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post #770 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:07 AM
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I cannot measure ANSI with my screen at maximum zoom because my screen is not large enough to do so, so I did the next best thing

We don't all have 7 metre wide screens

Because: (1) I am measuring the full range including not only ON/OFF and ANSI but also all of 1%, 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%, 10%, and 20% ADL; and (2) All of these for NATIVE, and LIMITED DYNAMIC, and FULL DYNAMIC; and (3) The dynamic contrast functionality currently has a bug and is malfunctioning... I chose to take the one set of measurements using the medium / mid-point zoom for the time being, or else a waste of time

I will take the full range of contrast measurements at both minimum as well as maximum zoom, AFTER JVC has fixed the bug that is causing the dynamic contrast to malfunction.

And by then I will also be setup with much larger screen that can accomodate measuring ANSI at maximum zoom

Do we have any updates or current status with JVC in regards to the DI bug?
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post #771 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:09 AM
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Thank you very much!

Did you have to adjust the brightness control at all?

Or was this out of the box brightness settings?
Box settings

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post #772 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:12 AM
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Do we have any updates or current status with JVC in regards to the DI bug?

All I know, is that there so far might have been a Betasoftware that worked. But I guess before release must be checked.
But so far nothing.

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post #773 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:15 AM
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All I know, is that there so far might have been a Betasoftware that worked. But I guess before release must be checked.
But so far nothing.
I'd imagine this would be something that would be corrected/rectified extremely quickly.
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post #774 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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So is that the way you set it then - zoom all the way in, measure size, zoom all the way out, measure size, then set it to zoom to exactly the middle size?
Yes

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post #775 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:22 AM
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Box settings
My excitement level just rose 2X to get my NX7.

Thank you again.
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post #776 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:33 AM
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Noob question. Does anyone know if the DI on the NX7 is malfunctioning like on the NX9? Can this be fixed via firmware?


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post #777 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:38 AM
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My excitement level just rose 2X to get my NX7.

Thank you again.
To get you to X4 , HDR content work like hell.

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post #778 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:39 AM
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Noob question. Does anyone know if the DI on the NX7 is malfunctioning like on the NX9? Can this be fixed via firmware?


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I'd have to believe based on the fact that the NX9 has features the NX7 does not - that there are different firmware versions. It also stands to reason though that, that might mean the NX9 and NX7 have duplicate portions of firmware - for features that are the same - such as the DI.

I imagine if the DI on the NX9 doesn't work - it wouldn't work on the NX7 either. Unless the implementation of that portion of the firmware is different - and that difference on the NX7 part of the DI firmware is lacking the string or values that make the NX9 malfunction.
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post #779 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:39 AM
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noob question. Does anyone know if the di on the nx7 is malfunctioning like on the nx9? Can this be fixed via firmware?


Sent from my iphone using tapatalk


yes problem on all new models. yes if a fix arrive .

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post #780 of 12951 Old 01-10-2019, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
It is actually not exactly the same lens according to woofer.

Even the outer element is a different shape.

Whatever it is, even if it's got the same amount of groups and elements it's not an identical copy of the 4500 lens.

Woofer has mentioned this a number of times.

JVC says it is the same lens with small refinements. Same number of elements, same grouping, same size, same throw and same lens shift range.
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Last edited by Mike Garrett; 01-10-2019 at 06:33 AM.
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