Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 267 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7981 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
I can't pretend to be an expert on this subject, but one difference is certainly the enabling of the color filter in BL and the associated loss of brightness. However, it's exceedingly hard for me to try to characterize how BL would appear on my NX7 if the UB9000 were in my video chain (instead of the UB820). I suspect that being able to have the option to remap to 350 nit would cause the NX7 to appear better with BL than trying to interface BL with the 500 nit signal from the UB820. I think that we'll have a better handle on this issue once there's some reporting from owners of the UB9000 with v2.01 firmware. I hope that they would A/B BL & HL viewed with many different sources (UHD BR & streaming). Ultimately, I think that this may turn out to be quite subjective, even for UB9000 owners.
Questions definitely remain. The BL setting on a NX5 would not use a color filter as it doesn’t exist. So is the BL setting just a lower nit curve?

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post #7982 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Willie View Post
My first foray into acoustically transparent screens was spandex, white over black. It was dull and didn't have any pop in comparison to the Seymour Center Stage XD I am now using. And I am pretty sure there are now better AT solutions than the Seymour XD tech of 7 years ago. If you're are gonna' skimp on screen, don't spend on a great projector, cause' really you aren't getting a great projector in that scenario. A little like having a great performance vehicle without being able to open it up and let it rock the highway.
Thanks Willie. I will go with the Seymour UF AT material. I was just wondering about spandex as some really rave about how great it is as a screen material. Of course I want the best picture quality for the JVC projector. Any other suggestions for DIY AT screen material anyone?

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post #7983 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Very helpful posts from both of you - thanks! But, inevitably, a couple of follow-up questions :

1. Arrow, you have "Basic Luminance" Projector selected in *both* the UB-820 and UB-9000
Correct

All of these JVC projectors are 'Basic' as in not high luminance. 1,800 - 2,200 lumens is not high luminance, hence you should select 'Basic Luminance'. Furthermore, the luminance of the projectors is a constant irrespective of whether you use the UB820 or UB9000, hence the selection should be the same in both instances.

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This raises the question of why this is the case, and what, if any, the difference is, between Basic Luminance selected in the UB-820 and UB-9000.
In short, there isn't any. They are identical

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2. And this leads to the question of when and why one would select the "High Luminance" option in the UB-9000.
When your projector is high luminance

JVC seemingly has not provided guidelines regarding what qualifies as 'high luminance' but IMO this would be in the order of circa 5000+ lumens

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3. It has been spoken of that the UB-820 offers tone-mapping to 500 nits, while the UB-9000 offers tone-mapping to 500 nits and also 350 nits. How do these ideas relate to the Basic and High Luminance options selections in these 2 Projectors?
Think of it as being 2-part tone-mapping. Part 1 is the selection of your particular type of projector with respect to the Panasonic Blu-Ray Player, namely either "Basic Luminance" or "High Luminance" with the UB9000, and "Basic Luminance" with the UB820 (because this is the only option for projectors). The Panasonic Blu-Ray Player will adjust its tone-mapping accordingly. And Part 2 is the selection of either Pana_PQ_HL (= 500 nits) or Pana_PQ_BL (= 350 nits) color profile with respect to the JVC projector; wherein, think of these as being 2 custom gamma curves with differing clipping points. These will overlay the tone-mapping being carried out by the Panasonic Blu-Ray Player; with the Pana_PQ_BL (= 350 nits) also making use of the BT.2020 color filter with JVC projectors which have it, namely the JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 and RS3000/NX9, but not the RS1000/NX5/N5 because this does not have the color filter.

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4. Looked at another way, there are 4 combinations here, with 2 Display options available in the Panasonic, and 2 Color Profile Options available in the JVC. What would be the rationale in selecting a given combination to use?
I've kinda already answered this in my answer to the previous question...

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post #7984 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
Questions definitely remain. The BL setting on a NX5 would not use a color filter as it doesn’t exist. So is the BL setting just a lower nit curve?
Bingo!

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post #7985 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 06:31 AM
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Ok sill waiting for my. Nx9, still have an oppo 203, is panna ub9000 that much better?
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post #7986 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Correct

All of these JVC projectors are 'Basic' as in not high luminance. 1,800 - 2,200 lumens is not high luminance, hence you should select 'Basic Luminance'. Furthermore, the luminance of the projectors is a constant irrespective of whether you use the UB820 or UB9000, hence the selection should be the same in both instances.


In short, there isn't any. They are identical


When your projector is high luminance

JVC seemingly has not provided guidelines regarding what qualifies as 'high luminance' but IMO this would be in the order of circa 5000+ lumens


Think of it as being 2-part tone-mapping. Part 1 is the selection of your particular type of projector with respect to the Panasonic Blu-Ray Player, namely either "Basic Luminance" or "High Luminance" with the UB9000, and "Basic Luminance" with the UB820 (because this is the only option for projectors). The Panasonic Blu-Ray Player will adjust its tone-mapping accordingly. And Part 2 is the selection of either Pana_PQ_HL (= 500 nits) or Pana_PQ_BL (= 350 nits) color profile with respect to the JVC projector; wherein, think of these as being 2 custom gamma curves with differing clipping points. These will overlay the tone-mapping being carried out by the Panasonic Blu-Ray Player; with the Pana_PQ_BL (= 350 nits) also making use of the BT.2020 color filter with JVC projectors which have it, namely the JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 and RS3000/NX9, but not the RS1000/NX5/N5 because this does not have the color filter.

Many thanks for this, Nigel. This is the way it seemed to me, but thought I might be missing something important. Apparently not.

So if I'm understanding you right, then with respect to HDR performance with the new JVC Projectors, the UB-9000 can't do anything the UB-820 can't also do! It may have the enhanced audio options, better build, etc., but with respect to HDR, if one doesn't need or want those things, then the UB-820 will perform just as well for HDR with our Projectors.

And all the 'hoopla' in the JVC announcements, touting the UB-9000, with no mention of the UB-820, can then be seen primarily as marketing for the UB-9000.

That would be good news indeed for those of us not wanting to spend more for the UB-9000 in search of the best picture on our JVC Projectors.

Don
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post #7987 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok sill waiting for my. Nx9, still have an oppo 203, is panna ub9000 that much better?
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Many thanks for this, Nigel. This is the way it seemed to me, but thought I might be missing something important. Apparently not.

So if I'm understanding you right, then with respect to HDR performance with the new JVC Projectors, the UB-9000 can't do anything the UB-820 can't also do! It may have the enhanced audio options, better build, etc., but with respect to HDR, if one doesn't need or want those things, then the UB-820 will perform just as well for HDR with our Projectors.

And all the 'hoopla' in the JVC announcements, touting the UB-9000, with no mention of the UB-820, can then be seen primarily as marketing for the UB-9000.

That would be good news indeed for those of us not wanting to spend more for the UB-9000 in search of the best picture on our JVC Projectors.

Don
Being completely honest, I really don't see any reason to buy the Panasonic UB9000 over the UB820 unless you intend to make use of the analogue audio aspect. The only other reason to opt for the UB9000 is for the aesthetics, but as far as video performance is concerned in short there won't be any difference, aside from the additional "High Luminance Projector" selection, which is irrelevant regarding these JVC projectors

It's like the difference between the OPPO 205 and 203... You are paying for the analogue audio

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post #7988 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 07:15 AM
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Just trying to get this straight. The 820 has a Basic Luminance LCD projector setting that is set for 500 nits. The 9000 has 2 settings one High luminance projector set for 500 nits and a basic luminance projector set for 350 nits. So the BL of the 820 is equal to the HL of the 9000. When using the 820 with the JVCs you want to select the HL setting for color profile(BL>HL). The 9000 you just match the HL>HL or BL>BL. Does that sound correct?

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post #7989 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
I can't pretend to be an expert on this subject, but one difference is certainly the enabling of the color filter in BL and the associated loss of brightness. However, it's exceedingly hard for me to try to characterize how BL would appear on my NX7 if the UB9000 were in my video chain (instead of the UB820). I suspect that being able to have the option to remap to 350 nit would cause the NX7 to appear better with BL than trying to interface BL with the 500 nit signal from the UB820. I think that we'll have a better handle on this issue once there's some reporting from owners of the UB9000 with v2.01 firmware. I hope that they would A/B BL & HL viewed with many different sources (UHD BR & streaming). Ultimately, I think that this may turn out to be quite subjective, even for UB9000 owners.


I personally think it’s hard to A/B stuff right now when the custom settings don’t stick when tweaking color modes. You can certainly switch between them fine. But any changes you make inside that color mode don’t stick when swapping back and forth. You can only A/B stock for stock.
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post #7990 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
Just trying to get this straight. The 820 has a Basic Luminance LCD projector setting that is set for 500 nits. The 9000 has 2 settings one High luminance projector set for 500 nits and a basic luminance projector set for 350 nits. So the BL of the 820 is equal to the HL of the 9000. When using the 820 with the JVCs you want to select the HL setting for color profile(BL>HL). The 9000 you just match the HL>HL or BL>BL. Does that sound correct?
Confusing, isn't it?

Re-read Arrow-AV's reply to me. The Basic Luminance setting in both the UB-820 and UB-9000 are *identical*. The High Luminance setting available only in the UB-9000 is basically not applicable to the new JVC Projectors, as they are not "high luminance" devices. So you choose Basic Luminance in *both* of these players.

This is different from how the UB-9000 was previously portrayed, but assuming Arrow-AV is correct, that initial information was not accurate.

So, quoting Arrow-AV, Part 1 would be selecting Basic Luminance in either player, and then:

Quote:
...Part 2 is the selection of either Pana_PQ_HL (= 500 nits) or Pana_PQ_BL (= 350 nits) color profile with respect to the JVC projector; wherein, think of these as being 2 custom gamma curves with differing clipping points. These will overlay the tone-mapping being carried out by the Panasonic Blu-Ray Player; with the Pana_PQ_BL (= 350 nits) also making use of the BT.2020 color filter with JVC projectors which have it, namely the JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 and RS3000/NX9, but not the RS1000/NX5/N5 because this does not have the color filter.
This seems to be where the 500 nits vs 350 nits comes into play, but these are both available with either Player, and all new JVC Projectors with the updated firmware.

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post #7991 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Very helpful posts from both of you - thanks! But, inevitably, a couple of follow-up questions :



1. Arrow, you have "Basic Luminance" Projector selected in *both* the UB-820 and UB-9000. This raises the question of why this is the case, and what, if any, the difference is, between Basic Luminance selected in the UB-820 and UB-9000.



2. And this leads to the question of when and why one would select the "High Luminance" option in the UB-9000.



3. It has been spoken of that the UB-820 offers tone-mapping to 500 nits, while the UB-9000 offers tone-mapping to 500 nits and also 350 nits. How do these ideas relate to the Basic and High Luminance options selections in these 2 Projectors?



4. Looked at another way, there are 4 combinations here, with 2 Display options available in the Panasonic, and 2 Color Profile Options available in the JVC. What would be the rationale in selecting a given combination to use?



Thanks again!


It’s like you read my mind. Lol. I was about to start asking questions and then BOOM you score the touchdown again.
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post #7992 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Confusing, isn't it?

Re-read Arrow-AV's reply to me. The Basic Luminance setting in both the UB-820 and UB-9000 are *identical*. The High Luminance setting available only in the UB-9000 is basically not applicable to the new JVC Projectors, as they are not "high luminance" devices. So you choose Basic Luminance in *both* of these players.

This is different from how the UB-9000 was previously portrayed, but assuming Arrow-AV is correct, that initial information was not accurate.

So, quoting Arrow-AV, Part 1 would be selecting Basic Luminance in either player, and then:



This seems to be where the 500 nits vs 350 nits comes into play, but these are both available with either Player, and all new JVC Projectors with the updated firmware.
Perhaps I'm in error then.

9000 2 modes
High Luminance Projector = 500 nits
Basic Luminance Projector = 350 nits

820 1 mode
Basic Luminance LCD or Projector = 500 nits

JVC Projectors 2 Modes set up to match the 9000
HL = 500 nits
BL = 350 nits

It seems if you are using the 820 with the JVC you want the Basic Luminance Projector to match the 500 nit setting on the projector so you would use the HL setting. The BL setting would give you a mismatch as the 820 is tone mapping for 500 nits and the BL JVC setting is expecting a 350 nit tone mapped signal. ???

820 Basic Luminance LCD Projector(500 nit) can be used with the PQ HL setting in the JVC(500 nit) and is not designed to be used with the PQ BL setting(350 nit).

I think Nigel may be wrong in that the High Luminance Projector setting on the 9000 is not really High Luminance at all but is a higher Luminance projector setting of 500 nits the same as the 820s BL LCD Projector setting.
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post #7993 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 07:41 AM
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Thanks Willie. I will go with the Seymour UF AT material. I was just wondering about spandex as some really rave about how great it is as a screen material. Of course I want the best picture quality for the JVC projector. Any other suggestions for DIY AT screen material anyone?
I replaced Seymour XD with ScreenAcoustics V6 fabric in the Seymour frame, and I couldn't be happier with the result.
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post #7994 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 07:44 AM
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Perhaps I'm in error then.

9000 2 modes
High Luminance Projector = 500 nits
Basic Luminance Projector = 350 nits

820 1 mode
Basic Luminance LCD or Projector = 500 nits

JVC Projectors 2 Modes set up to match the 9000
HL = 500 nits
BL = 350 nits

It seems if you are using the 820 with the JVC you want the Basic Luminance Projector to match the 500 nit setting on the projector so you would use the HL setting. The BL setting would give you a mismatch as the 820 is tone mapping for 500 nits and the BL JVC setting is expecting a 350 nit tone mapped signal. ???
There is a discrepancy between what Arrow-AV is stating, and the initial understanding based on original posts on this subject, and which your post presents. It is also different from the PDF of "JVC Instructions" whose source is unclear. It's been assumed it is from JVC, and it might be, but I haven't seen this documented anywhere.

I am trying to get this clarified with Arrow-AV, but if what he is saying is accurate, then our initial understanding may in fact be in error.

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post #7995 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
JVC Projectors 2 Modes set up to match the 9000
HL = 500 nits
BL = 350 nits

It seems if you are using the 820 with the JVC you want the Basic Luminance Projector to match the 500 nit setting on the projector so you would use the HL setting. The BL setting would give you a mismatch as the 820 is tone mapping for 500 nits and the BL JVC setting is expecting a 350 nit tone mapped signal. ???

I think Nigel may be wrong in that the High Luminance Projector setting on the 9000 is not really High Luminance at all but is a higher Luminance projector setting of 500 nits the same as the 820s BL LCD Projector setting.
I tend to think since these are the result of collaboration between JVC and Panasonic, “High Luminance” in this context is just “higher”, not “super high”.

Neither the player nor the projector knows the actual nits the user is getting, as that depends heavily on the screen size, distance, gain etc., so the user has to select the settings that best match his configuration.

Also, I would expect the two settings differ not just in luminance, but also the colour gamut in some subtle ways, given that JVC implemented them unspder different colour profiles and not under different gammas. (Pure speculation here since I have neither the UB9000 nor the 2019 JVC )
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post #7996 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 07:56 AM
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There is a discrepancy between what Arrow-AV is stating, and the initial understanding based on original posts on this subject, and which your post presents. It is also different from the PDF of "JVC Instructions" whose source is unclear. It's been assumed it is from JVC, and it might be, but I haven't seen this documented anywhere.

I am trying to get this clarified with Arrow-AV, but if what he is saying is accurate, then our initial understanding may in fact be in error.
Sent you a PM as I'm not allowed to cross post.

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post #7997 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 08:03 AM
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I tend to think since these are the result of collaboration between JVC and Panasonic, “High Luminance” in this context is just “higher”, not “super high”.

Neither the player nor the projector knows the actual nits the user is getting, as that depends heavily on the screen size, distance, gain etc., so the user has to select the settings that best match his configuration.

Also, I would expect the two settings differ not just in luminance, but also the colour gamut in some subtle ways, given that JVC implemented them unspder different colour profiles and not under different gammas. (Pure speculation here since I have neither the UB9000 nor the 2019 JVC )
I'm just trying to get this sorted as I think some may be using the settings in a manner that's not optimal.
These settings are based on the Panasonic 9000. The 820 may very well work in one of the modes but there is a language difference. The 820 Basic Luminance LCD Projector setting is 500 nits. The JVC PQ HL color profile is set up for the 9000s HL Projector setting which is also 500 nits. If you want to use the 820 with the JVC color profiles you want to match the 500 nit setting. In other words you want to use the HL color profile not the BL color profile. This is really confusing

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post #7998 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 08:38 AM
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I'm just trying to get this sorted as I think some may be using the settings in a manner that's not optimal.
These settings are based on the Panasonic 9000. The 820 may very well work in one of the modes but there is a language difference. The 820 Basic Luminance LCD Projector setting is 500 nits. The JVC PQ HL color profile is set up for the 9000s HL Projector setting which is also 500 nits. If you want to use the 820 with the JVC color profiles you want to match the 500 nit setting. In other words you want to use the HL color profile not the BL color profile. This is really confusing
What you say here seems to make sense based on the materials issued by JVC (or presumably issued by JVC). I may be missing it, but I don't see where the settings in the JVC are actually for high luminance or basic luminance projectors. Indeed, it seems to me that two different settings like this in a projector itself would not make sense. The projector is what it is.

It seems to me that, given that JVC designed its settings to work with the 9000, that the Pana_HL profile has to go with the 500 nits setting in the 9000, and the Pana_BL setting would have to go with the 350 nits setting in the 9000. The "HL" and the "BL" in the JVC Color Profile are not really referring to the projector's luminance, it seems to me.

I also don't believe that JVC would work with Panasonic to set up these profiles for the 9000, and there would be no benefit to purchasing the 9000.

But I could be wrong about all of this.
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post #7999 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Being completely honest, I really don't see any reason to buy the Panasonic UB9000 over the UB820 unless you intend to make use of the analogue audio aspect. The only other reason to opt for the UB9000 is for the aesthetics, but as far as video performance is concerned in short there won't be any difference, aside from the additional "High Luminance Projector" selection, which is irrelevant regarding these JVC projectors

It's like the difference between the OPPO 205 and 203... You are paying for the analogue audio

Even for some people even to buy a UB820 is over buying. If you are not going to use the additional features buy a $100 or $200 unit.......
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post #8000 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 08:44 AM
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Hey Everyone. I'm a little swamped with stuff right now so I haven't chimed in and I haven't gone back and read the pages and pages of this thread that come before this but I thought I would chime in with a little info on the new Panasonic modes.

Again, I may be repeating what others have said here but I wanted to be sure there was clarification on a few points.

Panasonic UB900 and 820 both have the same 500 nit mode, the 9000 adds the 350 nit mode. Don't think of this as an indicator of what your projector is capable of, think of it as a static tone map that is based around content. If you look at the analysis done in the MadVR threads it only backs this up. Most titles out there kind of fall into two ranges, lower dynamic range titles that hover around 350 nits and higher dynamic range titles that hover around 500 nits. This isn't peak nit values for the titles but rather what the display needs to emulate to show them properly (mostly centered around a display that is 100 nits overall). This is essentially the multiplier for those that were doing ARVE curves. But, because Panasonic is doing tone mapping adjustment dynamically, you can technically set it and forget it rather than bouncing between the two. They're doing their optimization to give you options. Most will find the 350 nit version brighter if setup properly (just like a lower multiplier typically does).

JVC provides two color profiles that have been optimized to these modes on the Panasonic. Think of these as custom curves that JVC made like the Arve curves. You can either select them specifically for the mode used on the Panasonic, but you can also use them without a Panasonic like you would a custom Arve curve. My only real complaint here is that they didn't use the filter for both modes. Another thing you can do with the JVC is just use the JVC auto tone mapping with one of the Panasonic modes and forgo their color profiles. The Panasonic outputs a fixed metadata set to the JVC, so results can vary a bit, but the Panasonic typically does a good job of adapting to the content.

Obviously I will talk more about the results of all this and my thoughts on the performance of different modes in relation to each other (no Panasonic, using the Panasonic with the JVC modes, and other variations) when I do my review.

The biggest thing I want to applaud JVC on is the fact that they did this all under the color profiles. This allows for a base calibration to a standard gamma (in this case 2.2). This is how ALL projection tone mapping should be. "Calibrating" HDR is ridiculous because it only works for a single tone map or two. With a dynamic system you want a base calibration and the tone map overlayed. This is also the way Dolby Vision works for flat panels, with a base 2.2 calibration done on the display and the tone mapping overlayed. It is also how the Radiance Pro and MadVR works as well.
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post #8001 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 08:44 AM
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Hmm, I finally adjusted some picture settings for SDR material, and now it looks like I am getting a strong yellow push in many scenes when in HDR. And not just scenes with some white on mostly black.

Maybe, it's just me and I am misremembering what these scenes looked like before, but I'll have to do some testing to figure that out.

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post #8002 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 08:48 AM
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Also, for those having issue making the projector go back to whatever custom mode they set in the JVC, you need to go into the HDR settings menu in the projector and change the default picture mode for HDR to the one where the custom curves are loaded. HDR10 doesn't allow you to select Custom color profiles if I remember correctly, so you'd have to use one of the User picture modes. If you assign this to an HDR10 input in the setup menu, it will go to that picture mode when it detects an HDR10 input.

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post #8003 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Also, for those having issue making the projector go back to whatever custom mode they set in the JVC, you need to go into the HDR settings menu in the projector and change the default picture mode for HDR to the one where the custom curves are loaded. HDR10 doesn't allow you to select Custom color profiles if I remember correctly, so you'd have to use one of the User picture modes. If you assign this to an HDR10 input in the setup menu, it will go to that picture mode when it detects an HDR10 input.


Right. I understand that, but if I select User1 and then set Gamma to Custom1 and specify whatever and make adjustments to the sliders below, it doesn’t stick.

I can understand not sticking when making adjustments to a regular color profiles like HDR/etc...but even on Custom1?

I’m going to head home in a bit and do some additional testing.
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post #8004 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Panasonic UB900 and 820 both have the same 500 nit mode, the 9000 adds the 350 nit mode. Don't think of this as an indicator of what your projector is capable of, think of it as a static tone map that is based around content. If you look at the analysis done in the MadVR threads it only backs this up. Most titles out there kind of fall into two ranges, lower dynamic range titles that hover around 350 nits and higher dynamic range titles that hover around 500 nits. This isn't peak nit values for the titles but rather what the display needs to emulate to show them properly (mostly centered around a display that is 100 nits overall). This is essentially the multiplier for those that were doing ARVE curves. But, because Panasonic is doing tone mapping adjustment dynamically, you can technically set it and forget it rather than bouncing between the two. They're doing their optimization to give you options. Most will find the 350 nit version brighter if setup properly (just like a lower multiplier typically does).

JVC provides two color profiles that have been optimized to these modes on the Panasonic. Think of these as custom curves that JVC made like the Arve curves. You can either select them specifically for the mode used on the Panasonic, but you can also use them without a Panasonic like you would a custom Arve curve. My only real complaint here is that they didn't use the filter for both modes. Another thing you can do with the JVC is just use the JVC auto tone mapping with one of the Panasonic modes and forgo their color profiles. The Panasonic outputs a fixed metadata set to the JVC, so results can vary a bit, but the Panasonic typically does a good job of adapting to the content.

The biggest thing I want to applaud JVC on is the fact that they did this all under the color profiles. This allows for a base calibration to a standard gamma (in this case 2.2). This is how ALL projection tone mapping should be. "Calibrating" HDR is ridiculous because it only works for a single tone map or two. With a dynamic system you want a base calibration and the tone map overlayed. This is also the way Dolby Vision works for flat panels, with a base 2.2 calibration done on the display and the tone mapping overlayed. It is also how the Radiance Pro and MadVR works as well.
Kris, thanks for adding your knowledge base, but I believe that you've made a comment in your post that's never been previously asserted: But, because Panasonic is doing tone mapping adjustment dynamically, you can technically set it and forget it rather than bouncing between the two. We've been told that the JVC's automatic tone mapping is static, but that's the first I've read that the UB820/9000 provides dynamic mapping (similar to the Lumagen or MadVR). Is that what you meant to imply?

But, you've also stated here: The Panasonic outputs a fixed metadata set to the JVC, so results can vary a bit, but the Panasonic typically does a good job of adapting to the content. Now it seems that you've said that the Panasonic's tone mapping is static.

Could you please clarify this apparent contradiction?

Thanks, as always!

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post #8005 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
I'm just trying to get this sorted as I think some may be using the settings in a manner that's not optimal.
These settings are based on the Panasonic 9000. The 820 may very well work in one of the modes but there is a language difference. The 820 Basic Luminance LCD Projector setting is 500 nits. The JVC PQ HL color profile is set up for the 9000s HL Projector setting which is also 500 nits. If you want to use the 820 with the JVC color profiles you want to match the 500 nit setting. In other words you want to use the HL color profile not the BL color profile. This is really confusing[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
That’s what I was thinking last night. I spent a few hrs messing with things watching scenes of Mad Max over and over. Pana_PQ_BL looked better to me with my 820.

Today I popped in Oblivion and compared both profiles.

1st picture is of HL. 2nd is BL. 3rd HL. 4Th BL.
5th is HDR10 with Auto Tone Mapping Level cranked to +5 just for the hell of it.
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post #8006 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Kris, thanks for adding your knowledge base, but I believe that you've made a comment in your post that's never been previously asserted: But, because Panasonic is doing tone mapping adjustment dynamically, you can technically set it and forget it rather than bouncing between the two. We've been told that the JVC's automatic tone mapping is static, but that's the first I've read that the UB820/9000 provides dynamic mapping (similar to the Lumagen or MadVR). Is that what you meant to imply?

But, you've also stated here: The Panasonic outputs a fixed metadata set to the JVC, so results can vary a bit, but the Panasonic typically does a good job of adapting to the content. Now it seems that you've said that the Panasonic's tone mapping is static.

Could you please clarify this apparent contradiction?

Thanks, as always!
Not a contradication at all. It is just most people don't understand the differences in tone mapping.

There is basic tone mapping = what the JVC did before, and what most projectors do currently
There is basic custom tone mapping = Arve curves (still trying to make one tone map, or 2-3, work for all content)
There is basic "dynamic" tone mapping = This is what the JVC new projectors do, the Panasonic and the Radiance Pro before their recent update. This is changing the tone map on a title by title basis based on the metadata. Each does this slightly different than each other, with pros and cons for each, but it still only generates a static tone map for the entire film based on the information it has available to it.
Advanced Dynamic Tone Mapping = analyzing the content and changing the tone mapping on a per frame/scene basis without regard to the information provided in the metadata. This is what MadVR and the Radiance Pro are doing, obviously with different levels of success most likely. I haven't evaluated MadVR but it would seem they are a bit farther ahead in this regard, but the first release from Lumagen is quite good and is in the process of being improved.

So for the Panasonic to do its basic dynamic function, you have to either be in HDR output with Optimizer ON or in SDR2020 with the Optimizer ON. For the JVC to do its basic dynamic mode it has to have valid metadata coming in or it defaults to off.
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post #8007 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceCarDriver View Post
That’s what I was thinking last night. I spent a few hrs messing with things watching scenes of Mad Max over and over. Pana_PQ_BL looked better to me with my 820.

Today I popped in Oblivion and compared both profiles.

1st picture is of HL. 2nd is BL. 3rd HL. 4Th BL.
5th is HDR10 with Auto Tone Mapping Level cranked to +5 just for the hell of it.
I don't have analysis data for Oblivion but it is not a very bright movie overall, so I would expect the 350 nit based curve to work the best. Lucy is best around 400 nits, so it looks better with the 350 nit curves.

Don't forget, you still have the SDR2020 output of the 820 that you can use. Don't underestimate it!

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post #8008 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 09:17 AM
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First, many thanks for posting this information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Panasonic UB900 and 820 both have the same 500 nit mode, the 9000 adds the 350 nit mode.
So then "Basic Luminance" on the UB820 is a 500 nit mode, while this same(?) 500 nit mode on the UB9000 is called "High Luminance"? If so, it seems they could have done better with the naming to avoid some confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
But, because Panasonic is doing tone mapping adjustment dynamically, you can technically set it and forget it rather than bouncing between the two. They're doing their optimization to give you options.
Like @docrog , the bolded word really caught my attention. Could you clarify what you mean by the Panasonic making dynamic adjustments? And does the UB-820 do the same thing with its Basic Luminance setting?

Edit: ignore this last question - it was answered while I composed my post.

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post #8009 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceCarDriver View Post
That’s what I was thinking last night. I spent a few hrs messing with things watching scenes of Mad Max over and over. Pana_PQ_BL looked better to me with my 820.



Today I popped in Oblivion and compared both profiles.



1st picture is of HL. 2nd is BL. 3rd HL. 4Th BL.

5th is HDR10 with Auto Tone Mapping Level cranked to +5 just for the hell of it.


BL really does look better in those shots. Hmmm. That’s the one that engages the filter - correct?
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post #8010 of 14014 Old 03-17-2019, 09:46 AM
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Give it a break would you. I’m not saying you’re wrong and I’m not saying you’re right. Let’s stop the standing on a soap box until we determine the facts.
And why are you quoting me and asking me to give it a break??? I asked a simple question if anyone else was having an issue. Chill out dude.

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