Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 284 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8491 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 01:05 PM
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Kris is doing calibrations?

I didn't look at his web-site yet, but it makes sense for a few of the best of the best in A/V to associate with a single identity. The shared knowledge and experiences could pay off for us!

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post #8492 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 01:31 PM
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Does anyone know where to buy optical glass for a projection port please?

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post #8493 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 01:37 PM
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To this, I will just add that I found it very refreshing to have the presentation conducted by a third party who wasn't afraid to speak frankly and cut through some of the marketing hyperbole and BS. I went in expecting JVC and Panasonic reps to manage the whole event with a full-force sales push. At least at the time I got there, Kris ran the whole show himself.

Kudos to Kris for that and Robert for arranging it. And considering that both JVC and Panasonic people were in the next room and seemed to approve, thanks to them as well.
Do you, or anyone else that was there, have any take-aways in terms of what you learned, new insights, recommendations, etc.? I was considering going, but ended up with a conflict that prevented me from attending. I would be interested in any feedback from this meeting.

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post #8494 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Other than if you are using a PC that is converting video levels to PC levels, I can't think of any reason to extend past legal range with a projector. Video should be 16-235, anything above that is a waste of light and contrast except for looking at test patterns.
I think a lot of other calibrators would disagree on that Kris, almost every calibrator I know leaves the headroom to clip above 235 even if there is not supposed to be information there.

Just a random grab from;
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there are many YCbCr triplets that when converted to RGB exceed 235. The Cb and Cr channel goes from 16-240 actually, but even at only 16-235 the YCbCr data can convert to >235.

That said the amount of visual information isn't great, but since it can be there, you should be calibrated to display it correctly.
I can show you a lot of scenes that have information above 235, clouds and other highlights that will be clipped when calibrating to 235. I have discussed this on many ISF courses and even with Joel silver. The consensus is to not let the display clip at 235.
But hey, if the client find its ok to clip at 235 then I don't mind, ti was the one that calibrated te JVC from Riwi that posted te question here.

Apparently we disagree on this, the new epson for instance have a big problem as they clip at 235, it is almost impossible to get the grey scale correct as the red drops even before it
hits 235.
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post #8495 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Other than if you are using a PC that is converting video levels to PC levels, I can't think of any reason to extend past legal range with a projector. Video should be 16-235, anything above that is a waste of light and contrast except for looking at test patterns.
I think a lot of other calibrators would disagree on that Kris, almost every calibrator I know leaves the headroom to clip above 235 even if there is not supposed to be information there.

Just a random grab from;
Quote:
there are many YCbCr triplets that when converted to RGB exceed 235. The Cb and Cr channel goes from 16-240 actually, but even at only 16-235 the YCbCr data can convert to >235.

That said the amount of visual information isn't great, but since it can be there, you should be calibrated to display it correctly.
I can show you a lot of scenes that have information above 235, clouds and other highlights that will be clipped when calibrating to 235. I have discussed this on many ISF courses and even with Joel silver. The consensus is to not let the display clip at 235.
But hey, if the client find its ok to clip at 235 then I don't mind, ti was the one that calibrated te JVC from Riwi that posted te question here.

Apparently we disagree on this, the new epson for instance have a big problem as they clip at 235, it is almost impossible to get the grey scale correct as the red drops even before it
hits 235.
I’m sure there are many things other calibrators would disagree with me on. Not that concerned about it. I’ve yet to see content that it’s an issue on, and I’d rather preserve brightness and contrast. Most projectors that are full range are expecting PC levels. Remapping to video levels typically screws up the gamma and creates other issues.

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post #8496 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I’m sure there are many things other calibrators would disagree with me on. Not that concerned about it. I’ve yet to see content that it’s an issue on, and I’d rather preserve brightness and contrast. Most projectors that are full range are expecting PC levels. Remapping to video levels typically screws up the gamma and creates other issues.
But we are not using PC levels, we just clip a bit higher then 235 to preserve the headroom. If you don't do that on the new Epsons you can't calibrate them properly as red dives down even before it hits 235. when you set it to 0-255 ant then set correct black and white the grey scale is perfect lineair across the entire range.
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post #8497 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jetsen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I’m sure there are many things other calibrators would disagree with me on. Not that concerned about it. I’ve yet to see content that it’s an issue on, and I’d rather preserve brightness and contrast. Most projectors that are full range are expecting PC levels. Remapping to video levels typically screws up the gamma and creates other issues.
But we are not using PC levels, we just clip a bit higher then 235 to preserve the headroom. If you don't do that on the new Epsons you can't calibrate them properly as red dives down even before it hits 235. when you set it to 0-255 ant then set correct black and white the grey scale is perfect lineair across the entire range.
Then it is not remapping to PC levels. Again, some projectors do this and some don’t. You have to look at each on their own. This is different than trying to preserve information that really isn’t there.
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post #8498 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 01:58 PM
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Does anyone know where to buy optical glass for a projection port please?
Edmund Optics seems a popular choice. Some with 1mm, some 3mm.
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post #8499 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 01:58 PM
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Deep Dive A/V look in his sig.
I was just explaining why Kris probably would not hire calibrators, since that is a lot of what he is doing.
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post #8500 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Other than if you are using a PC that is converting video levels to PC levels, I can't think of any reason to extend past legal range with a projector. Video should be 16-235, anything above that is a waste of light and contrast except for looking at test patterns.

Thank you. That is what I thought too.
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post #8501 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 02:01 PM
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Really? I didn't realize that. Even more credit to Kris, then.

What the heck did the Panasonic and JVC people think was going to happen when they got there?



He calibrated the projector for the presentation!
Yes, I obviously know that. It was put as a question when a poster asked why Kris did not hire some calibrators. Since Kris does calibrations, it does not make sense for him to hire calibrators.
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post #8502 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 02:04 PM
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Do you, or anyone else that was there, have any take-aways in terms of what you learned, new insights, recommendations, etc.? I was considering going, but ended up with a conflict that prevented me from attending. I would be interested in any feedback from this meeting.
I don't want to speak out of turn here, because Kris did not use these words and this may not have been his intention, but I came away feeling like the Panasonic UB820 (which was not demoed, only discussed) can probably get you most of the same performance that the much more expensive UB9000 did with some careful adjustment of the settings. Honestly, I don't feel a huge need to replace my OPPO 203, which I value for its HDMI input and 21:9 aspect ratio scaling modes, that the Panasonic models lack.

That was my feeling, based on the concerns I went in with. Someone else sitting in the same room could have gotten a different impression. Kris himself can comment on whether he feels the UB9000's 350-nit mode is worth the extra $500.
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post #8503 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 02:08 PM
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But hey, if the client find its ok to clip at 235 then I don't mind, I was the one that calibrated the JVC from Riwi that posted te question here.

Well when choosing between loss of some detail in the 235-255 area and loosing over 20% light output, I know what I want : more light output.
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post #8504 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 02:16 PM
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review on N7 - sorry if repost


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post #8505 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 02:23 PM
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That's funny. I always watched videos of Pan doing car detailing.
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post #8506 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 02:25 PM
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If a JVC projector has a convergence problem that can't be fixed with pixel shifts, namely the left/right/top/bottom side is fine and the right/left/bottom/top side is x pixels off, what is the value for x above which the unit is considered faulty and can be replaced? It's not 1, is it?
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post #8507 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 02:31 PM
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If a JVC projector has a convergence problem that can't be fixed with pixel shifts, namely the left/right/top/bottom side is fine and the right/left/bottom/top side is x pixels off, what is the value for x above which the unit is considered faulty and can be replaced? It's not 1, is it?
Technically you can "fix" it with zone adjustment, so I doubt it could be considered a defect. However, most people would recommend you don't use zone adjustment.


My NX5 needed 1 pixel right and 1 pixel up on red and 2 pixels right on blue. After that, green and red are perfect across the whole screen. However, blue is only perfect on the left side of the screen and is off by a half pixel in the center and off by 1 pixel on the right.

However, this is not noticeable at all past about 4-5ft view distance, and my seating is 13ft away from my 123" wide screen.
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post #8508 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 02:47 PM
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Technically you can "fix" it with zone adjustment, so I doubt it could be considered a defect. However, most people would recommend you don't use zone adjustment.
My NX5 needed 1 pixel right and 1 pixel up on red and 2 pixels right on blue. After that, green and red are perfect across the whole screen. However, blue is only perfect on the left side of the screen and is off by a half pixel in the center and off by 1 pixel on the right.
However, this is not noticeable at all past about 4-5ft view distance, and my seating is 13ft away from my 123" wide screen.
Blue is not an issue but red 1 pixel off is quite visible and zone adjustment is not a good solution as it creates artifacts and 4K sharpness goes bye bye.
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post #8509 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 03:08 PM
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Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread

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Blue is not an issue but red 1 pixel off is quite visible and zone adjustment is not a good solution as it creates artifacts and 4K sharpness goes bye bye.


Hmmmmm. I can get red dead set correctly in the middle - but it’ll still be off on one corner. You’re saying if red is off anywhere a whole pixel that’s a huge problem?
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post #8510 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 03:17 PM
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Technically you can "fix" it with zone adjustment, so I doubt it could be considered a defect. However, most people would recommend you don't use zone adjustment.
My NX5 needed 1 pixel right and 1 pixel up on red and 2 pixels right on blue. After that, green and red are perfect across the whole screen. However, blue is only perfect on the left side of the screen and is off by a half pixel in the center and off by 1 pixel on the right.
However, this is not noticeable at all past about 4-5ft view distance, and my seating is 13ft away from my 123" wide screen.
Blue is not an issue but red 1 pixel off is quite visible and zone adjustment is not a good solution as it creates artifacts and 4K sharpness goes bye bye.
I use a Paladin lens and I’m very close to the minimum throw distance. I have noticed that with the lens in place, my convergence is off at various parts of the screen and I have to use zone adjustment to fix it. However, this is not the case if I don’t use the lens. Not sure why since I would have thought the convergence should be related to the panels. In any case, I have not experienced any issues with loss of 4k sharpness. Mine is tack sharp.

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post #8511 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 03:25 PM
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The only thing I thought I'd be doing is the calibration and answering any questions about that before the event started. I did not know I would be in the room doing the presentation or answering any questions during the presentations until I was in the room! So I winged it all from that point!
Sounds like you winged it well

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If a JVC projector has a convergence problem that can't be fixed with pixel shifts, namely the left/right/top/bottom side is fine and the right/left/bottom/top side is x pixels off, what is the value for x above which the unit is considered faulty and can be replaced?
Yes it would be replaced thru the advanced exchange program.....
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post #8512 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 03:26 PM
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Womp womp, i just received my third replacement rs3000 and it appears to have a scratched lens. Waiting to hear back from jvc and mybdealer.


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post #8513 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 03:26 PM
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Hmmmmm. I can get red dead set correctly in the middle - but it’ll still be off on one corner. You’re saying if red is off anywhere a whole pixel that’s a huge problem?
It's only a problem if you think it's a problem. If you can see it from normal viewing distances. You can even try to see it in test images which would be much easier to see it in than actual video content too. If you can't see it in test images from normal seating, then I personally would say it's not a problem. Just align it in the middle.
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post #8514 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 03:47 PM
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For those keeping statistics, my rs2000 is 40 seconds to hit DILA logo. Still on 1.21 FW.


Same here. That’s why I find it off when some members have to suffer and endure the long boot up time which can hit the high of > 2mins!


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post #8515 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 04:21 PM
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Womp womp, i just received my third replacement rs3000 and it appears to have a scratched lens. Waiting to hear back from jvc and mybdealer.


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That sucks man, I just got my third replacement yesterday and so far (knock on wood) everything has been good with it.
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post #8516 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 04:32 PM
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Did you have to align both RED and BLUE? How’s your lens sharpness?

Only red, down one and over one pixel. It could use a little of the fine adjustment but I’ve heard that causes more issues than it solves so I just stuck to whole pixel adjustments.

The lens is sharp no issue there. This is the third one I’ve had, the first had terrible panel alignment more than 32 pixels off so I couldn’t fix it. The second I managed to break doing a JVC autocal reload where the projector crashed mid reload and bricked the image.

One variation I’ve noticed between all these is bright corners, the first one had no bright corners, the second one had terrible bright corners, and this one is not quite as good as the first but only one bright corner in the bottom right that is barely noticeable.

I will also say the first and second one I had showed the yellowing DI issue and this third one has not shown that problem. I’m not sure if this is due to the 2.04 firmware or if they fixed it in 2.01 but it no longer shows yellowing when the DI is clamped down like my last two.
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post #8517 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 05:08 PM
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I have no issues with my NX5 and the Harmony Elite.
I have the elite and NX5/RS 1000 and mine does not turn off or on via harmony activities . Can you screen-shot your activity? WHat are your power settings for the projector device?

Thanks
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post #8518 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 05:59 PM
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That sucks man, I just got my third replacement yesterday and so far (knock on wood) everything has been good with it.


Yeah. And the DI is still noisy. Not as clicky as my current one. If it’s just a smudge on the lens that can be cleaned i might be inclined to keep it.

Also, i don’t want to start a heated discussion here, but my new one has firmware version 2.04. It appears that the whites bo longer turn yellow when DI clamps down. At least in sdr. The tone changes slightly but if anything the whites now turn down to a cooler blue shifted tone. Just my observation.


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post #8519 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 06:37 PM
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It's only a problem if you think it's a problem. If you can see it from normal viewing distances. You can even try to see it in test images which would be much easier to see it in than actual video content too. If you can't see it in test images from normal seating, then I personally would say it's not a problem. Just align it in the middle.


Gotcha. I’ll try that.
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post #8520 of 18042 Old 03-26-2019, 08:20 PM
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This may seem like an odd question, but can someone who has an RS2000/NX7 please measure the distance from the projector's front feet to back feet? Not the depth of the entire projector, just from foot to foot. Thanks.

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