Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
And the Lumagen Radiance Pro will have this soon too.
After breaking the piggy bank for the NX9 I can't afford that (first world problems...lol). I have a HTPC laying around that I can install MadVR on it when its enabled.
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post #872 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 12:22 PM
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Has JVC said anything about when these will starting shipping in volume?
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post #873 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Here a test calibration with lamp at 10 hours, this is out of the box, just with 100% gain adjustments Green gain -7 Blue gain -5


Iris -12 Lamp High. 17FL


I Have to say quit nice.
Yes, I think that is the most accurate color saturation sweeps I've ever seen out of the box from a JVC (or perhaps any other display). That may even be better than my post auto-cal results with my RS500. That was on a NX9, not N7, right?

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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I cannot measure ANSI with my screen at maximum zoom because my screen is not large enough to do so, so I did the next best thing...
I agree with what Manni wrote. Also as we talked about here months ago in preparation for this - you can just use the Modified ANSI CR pattern where you are just doing the 4 (or whatever limited number) inner squares. As long as it's noted as such, it'll provide very useful information.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmarket View Post
Forgive my laziness but I'm not going back through all 28 pages. Was there a calibrated lumen output given with the preliminary analyses done so far?
I do not think he's posted any lumens measurements so far, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
I put the native ADL results from Nigel (AV Arrow) and Flo / Soulnight (Projectiondream) in one chart. Same testpatterns, only difference is used Zoom (Mid with the NX9 vs Max with the JVC X and Sony VW). So ANSI (corresponding to zoom) about 220:1 (NX9) vs 250:1 (JVC X) vs 380:1 (Sony))

See attachment.

As I know for sure that Soulnights measures are perfectly accurate and I also believe AV Arrow knows what he is doing, this can only mean, that the NX9 has an issue with scattered light, either in principle or caused by Zoom.

If anyone has another explanation, go ahead.
IF the issue is caused by zoom - will the ANSI CR then be worse at short throw or worse at long throw?
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post #874 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
I have the UB820 that I use for my HDR10 content and I have a JVC RS3000 on order. I plan on comparing them myself. I don't believe that Panasonic's tone mapping is dynamic and none of the testing I have done suggests that it is anything more than a static tone map.

The Panasonic tone maps based off of the MAXCLL and MAXFALL metadata just like the JVC. Both of those are static throughout the entire video content. Only DolbyVision and HDR10+ are dynamic and can change on a frame by frame basis. The Panasonic tone maps based upon the HDR10 metadata and does not change once the tone map is established by your setup.

The JVC supposedly works in a similar way, so I would expect the result to be very much the same. In fact, I would think the JVC would do a slightly better job for your JVC projector because it is tone mapping based on the projector it is setup for. Whereas the UB820 is tone mapping for an average projector or low output LED panel tv setting.
Great question.

The panasonic 1st step (optimizer) is to map the input to a 1000 nit output based on the meta data and the display type selected. Then the slider and other adjustments are used to fine tune for best peak brightness and the gamma curve shape. I am curious if the white and black tone adjustments are made on the hdr input or after that 1st pass to map the input to 1000 nit? I assume the latter.

Don't know how the jvc signal path works. Do they also use meta data in a 1st stage to output a reference nit value, and then use controls to make refinements after? The reference nit value could be better tuned to the projector than the 1000 nit value by the panny. It looked like it was possible to run out of range on the slider on the jvc demos i saw, while the panny permits adjustment well beyond an effective range on both ends of the curve. If Jvc does things entirely different, i look forward to more info and comparisons.

If both techniques have a meta data 1st pass, which does a better job? Better is subjective, but in so far as there isnt a standard, it is kinda all we got, unless it is possible to measure the quality of how both processes preserve luminance data to be used by the fine tuning adjustments.
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post #875 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 12:45 PM
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Has JVC said anything about when these will starting shipping in volume?
Headed that way now....By the end of the month we should see some action.
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post #876 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
I have heard rumors that MadVR will be coming with a fully dynamic real time tone mapping in the near future. That will be exciting to see how it looks with the new JVCs.
I may be wrong (it's happened in the past ) But I thought MADVR already analyzes every frame in real time for tone mapping essentially creating the same meta data performance as Dolby Vision and HDR10+

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post #877 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
I put the native ADL results from Nigel (AV Arrow) and Flo / Soulnight (Projectiondream) in one chart. Same testpatterns, only difference is used Zoom (Mid with the NX9 vs Max with the JVC X and Sony VW). So ANSI (corresponding to zoom) about 220:1 (NX9) vs 250:1 (JVC X) vs 380:1 (Sony))

See attachment.

As I know for sure that Soulnights measures are perfectly accurate and I also believe AV Arrow knows what he is doing, this can only mean, that the NX9 has an issue with scattered light, either in principle or caused by Zoom.

If anyone has another explanation, go ahead.
I guess we really need to see some numbers using the exact same method, lens setup and preferably room / equipment, then we might know something.
It is interesting though in the whole "ANSI/on-off" discussion. If the numbers hold up, look how quickly the crossover happened. Somewhere between 1-2% the the 5x00 shows higher contrast (for these settings).
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post #878 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

IF the issue is caused by zoom - will the ANSI CR then be worse at short throw or worse at long throw?
Usually ANSI is worst at longest throw and best at shortest throw.
But difference is not that high.
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post #879 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 01:05 PM
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There are some initial iterations of the dynamic mapping in madvr now. Maybe one day soon it will be able to perform in real time. If you have luxury of parsing your files ahead of time the quality of dynamic mapping is awesome.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
And the Lumagen Radiance Pro will have this soon too.
After breaking the piggy bank for the NX9 I can't afford that (first world problems...lol). I have a HTPC laying around that I can install MadVR on it when its enabled.
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post #880 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Teejoo View Post
Yes, you can't combine them. I would always use the Panansonics dynamic HDR tone mapping because it's dynamic. They aren't the same.

In Dutch here is quite a good explanation between JVC Auto Tone Mapping & Panasonic HDR Optimizer.

https://www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?topic=169829.0

The link you provided does not support your argument that you can't combine the Panasonic HDR Optimizer with the JVC Auto Tone Mapping. The author is doing exactly that. (Or perhaps it does boost the argument based on his results. )


He set HDR TV type to Projector in the Panasonic player menu. The fact that the JVC reported 500/400 nits HDR values for MaxCLL/MaxFALL indicates that the UB820 is using the Optimizer in HDR output mode, not SDR/BT2020. The JVC is getting HDR that has the brightest highlights tone mapped down to 500 nits. The JVC Auto Tone mapping takes over tone mapping of 500/400 nit HDR content instead of the original 9919/1342 nit content.


And as others have mentioned, the Panasonic HDR Optimizer is not dynamic tone mapping in the normal definition of the process. It does not do a frame by frame analysis. It uses HDR metadata values like the JVC auto tone mapping does. Although, they may utilize the metadata values quite differently.


Having the Panasonic tone map to 500 nits HDR ouput, and then the JVC tone mapping the 500 nit input is probably not a good idea. If tone mapping is performed in both devices, I would think it would be better to have the Panasonic tone map to 1000 nits instead of 500, and then let the JVC auto tone map take over.


The author should have set the Panasonic to output SDR/BT2020 with the Optimizer turned on. It would then perform complete tone mapping to SDR/BT2020, and the JVC would receive SDR/BT2020 instead of HDR. That would be a better comparison of the Panasonic HDR Optimizer tone mapping vs the JVC.
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post #881 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
Worth a try although normally closing the Iris lowers ANSI contrast (also on JVC X-series, see chart below)

Sony and JVC X were measured with Iris open.
hello ekki as a retailer yourself, do you plan to get in n5/7/9 units yourself ? or will it still be a while before we hear from you on production units ?

what I would love to hear is some comparative comment particularly vs previous gen JVC. and folks no doubt want to hear how compares with the Sony alternative too

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post #882 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
I put the native ADL results from Nigel (AV Arrow) and Flo / Soulnight (Projectiondream) in one chart. Same testpatterns, only difference is used Zoom (Mid with the NX9 vs Max with the JVC X and Sony VW). So ANSI (corresponding to zoom) about 220:1 (NX9) vs 250:1 (JVC X) vs 380:1 (Sony))

See attachment.

As I know for sure that Soulnights measures are perfectly accurate and I also believe AV Arrow knows what he is doing, this can only mean, that the NX9 has an issue with scattered light, either in principle or caused by Zoom.

If anyone has another explanation, go ahead.

If these numbers are accurate that means that, aside from the single white pixel and possibly .5% ADL, the sony will appear to have darker blacks/better contrast in pretty much every scenario?
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post #883 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
I know this wasn't addressed to me but thought I might add my two cents after moving from an X750 (RS500) to an NX7 (RS2000).

"Holy crap, what the heck is going on here? - This looks amazing!!

The improvements are readily apparent even on 1080P SDR and the 4K HDR is to die for.
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Have to say that I said to my selves HDR not for projectors, but now I for shore have changed this statement.
So far have not put on a single HDR film that look just okey. It look to me like heaven And that wont be much different on a N5 or N7. Like Lygren points out, some adjustments can also be made. And will have a great effect if you have larger screens, but so far with my screen have not seen "why" to do so when it looks F****** great.


But the best thing here is that JVC has auto tone mapping, that actually work. I would not go in and adjust every time I shall se a movie. That will be to much work and I like to enjoy film not trying to get HDR look good. It shall look great without adjustments and it does for me, and im quit picky.
@Dj Dee and @BruceJK thank you for the feedback on real material SDR and HDR, great to hear your impressions so far. presume you are both running at 0 manual iris and dynamic iris on ? while jvc sorts out a fix to any adjustment of manual iris ? so it can run on anything bar zero and still have an effective dynamic iris ?

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post #884 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 01:44 PM
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hello ekki as a retailer yourself, do you plan to get in n5/7/9 units yourself ? or will it still be a while before we hear from you on production units ?

what I would love to hear is some comparative comment particularly vs previous gen JVC. and folks no doubt want to hear how compares with the Sony alternative too

I am not a retailer, no ;-)

But of course, as soon as the N5/7/9 are available in Germany, I will immedeately get my hands on them and start testing.

Regards,
Ekki
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post #885 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 01:45 PM
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I may be wrong (it's happened in the past ) But I thought MADVR already analyzes every frame in real time for tone mapping essentially creating the same meta data performance as Dolby Vision and HDR10+
I am pretty sure you need to run the file through a 3rd party app to give it a frame by frame map of the changes.

I was talking about native real time frame-by-frame with no additional work by the user.
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post #886 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 01:57 PM
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I am pretty sure you need to run the file through a 3rd party app to give it a frame by frame map of the changes.

I was talking about native real time frame-by-frame with no additional work by the user.
I am pretty sure it does have that capability, just that it can work even better if you can parse the whole movie in advance (as you'd expect).
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post #887 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 01:58 PM
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And the Lumagen Radiance Pro will have this soon too.
That may make me finally invest in one. If it’s effectively plug and play once set up by an experienced calibrator.

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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
I am pretty sure you need to run the file through a 3rd party app to give it a frame by frame map of the changes.

I was talking about native real time frame-by-frame with no additional work by the user.
So it will become fully automatic, no parsing in advance?

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post #888 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:01 PM
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So it will become fully automatic, no parsing in advance?
That's the rumor I was told. I saw a post lately from Madshi recommending the newer RTX cards and I found it kinda strange but now that makes sense.
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post #889 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:08 PM
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If these numbers are accurate that means that, aside from the single white pixel and possibly .5% ADL, the sony will appear to have darker blacks/better contrast in pretty much every scenario?
That is why my mate is keeping his 760 and not going for the NX9..
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post #890 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:21 PM
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@Dj Dee and @BruceJK thank you for the feedback on real material SDR and HDR, great to hear your impressions so far. presume you are both running at 0 manual iris and dynamic iris on ? while jvc sorts out a fix to any adjustment of manual iris ? so it can run on anything bar zero and still have an effective dynamic iris ?
I'm mostly running with the dynamic iris turned off for now. For SDR its too bright with the manual iris set to 0. I've also been experimenting with the manual iris closed down for HDR and and adjusting the mapping level on the auto tone mapping to compensate. There's quite a lot of versatility in how all the pieces fit together for HDR which you can then save as different installation modes.

For example you can have a high lamp HDR mode with the iris fully open, the colour filter disengaged, and dynamic iris turned on to maximize light output and get the maximum HDR 'pop'. Then you can set up another installation mode with high lamp, manual iris closed down to -5, the colour filter engaged, and the dynamic iris disabled to raise native on/off contrast, improve gamma tracking, and reproduce the full DCI P3 colourspace. Then you might do the same for low lamp if the fan noise bothers you (I find it acceptable but seating location has a big impact here).

This is all very easy to do once you get used to the new menus as they are quite intuitive and there are also direct access buttons on the remote.
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post #891 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:25 PM
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That is why my mate is keeping his 760 and not going for the NX9..
But keep in mind that this is for iris at 0, fully open. If you were to close the manual iris down, then the contrast would go up at all ADL measurements and the cross-over point would change. The 760/885 doesn't have a manual iris and the 695,295 don't have a manual iris before the lens to enhance contrast.
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post #892 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:38 PM
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That is why my mate is keeping his 760 and not going for the NX9..
I am sorry but I just find this very odd. Could be true when all is said and done, however if JVC really is not the best contrast projector for the price then they will be in big trouble. I can't help but think when this FW and DI thing gets fixed things will be more on track to typical JVC.

And it begs a question which is how the NX7 compares to the NX9 in real life. I mean the NX7 is sounding pretty good compared to the NX9 especially if you take the e-shift out of the equation. I am not seeing the value yet in the NX9 at double the price.

Edit : Greg above makes sense to me now when you factor in the manual iris.

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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
Usually ANSI is worst at longest throw and best at shortest throw.
But difference is not that high.
Yep, short throw, higher ANSI, lower native. Long throw lower ANSI with higher native. But with HDR these days, it is lumens that seems to govern.
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post #894 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:43 PM
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But keep in mind that this is for iris at 0, fully open. If you were to close the manual iris down, then the contrast would go up at all ADL measurements and the cross-over point would change. The 760/885 doesn't have a manual iris and the 695,295 don't have a manual iris before the lens to enhance contrast.
People REALLY need to not place so much emphasis on "SPECS"....... in real world viewing you would be surprised at the results!

Myself and many others have "starred at" / 'compared" / "discussed" to a great degree the X9900 / NX9 / Z1 / 760ES while ALL have been set up in my theatre ...... SPECS DO NOT tell the whole story!!!
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People REALLY need to not place so much emphasis on "SPECS"....... in real world viewing you would be surprised at the results!

Myself and many others have "starred at" / 'compared" / "discussed" to a great degree the X9900 / NX9 / Z1 / 760ES while ALL have been set up in my theatre ...... SPECS DO NOT tell the whole story!!!
You are right. What really matters is the final result and how it all comes together to reproduce your video content of choice.

I am sure when you compare all these projectors in the same room, they all throw an outstanding image.
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post #896 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:47 PM
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People REALLY need to not place so much emphasis on "SPECS"....... in real world viewing you would be surprised at the results!

Myself and many others have "starred at" / 'compared" / "discussed" to a great degree the X9900 / NX9 / Z1 / 760ES while ALL have been set up in my theatre ...... SPECS DO NOT tell the whole story!!!
woofer you never saw a N7 did you?

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Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
however if JVC really is not the best contrast projector for the price then they will be in big trouble.
Again ......Contrast , Contrast .....yep its great to have it of course .......BUT!!!! its NOT the sole attribute of an image as a WHOLE!!

The Z1 AND the 760 have "Sh*t" contrast by peoples opinion here......but guess what they both throw a "Spectacular" bloody image .
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post #898 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
woofer you never saw a N7 did you?
No, but i have been corresponding with a user who had had a "Pre Production" unit for some time...... it sounds very good.
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post #899 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
That is why my mate is keeping his 760 and not going for the NX9..
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
But keep in mind that this is for iris at 0, fully open. If you were to close the manual iris down, then the contrast would go up at all ADL measurements and the cross-over point would change. The 760/885 doesn't have a manual iris and the 695,295 don't have a manual iris before the lens to enhance contrast.
I may be wrong but what those numbers tell me is that with HDR content the Sony should perform a bit better than the JVC as you want the iris fully open to increase luminance when playing HDR10 material. Now with SDR content it may be another history as the JVC with dual iris should do a better job than the single iris Sony. Just my 2 cents.

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post #900 of 13115 Old 01-10-2019, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Again ......Contrast , Contrast .....yep its great to have it of course .......BUT!!!! its NOT the sole attribute of an image as a WHOLE!!

The Z1 AND the 760 have "Sh*t" contrast by peoples opinion here......but guess what they both throw a "Spectacular" bloody image .
Oh trust me I am not a contrast junky and I believe you. AND if I could afford a Z1 I would buy that over any of them. Kinda like apples and oranges in my mind though. Heck my UHD65 throws a GREAT picture on my Stewart screen that cost more than my projector. However I think the discussion was about contrast and that is why I made the statement.

End of the day these are all going to throw a great picture and you had better be able to enjoy them or get some help!
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