Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 345 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10321 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
I would not agree with the statement that the DI is akin to keystone correction. I do not have the trained eyes that many here on this forum have no doubt but I have always used the DI and imo it does improve the picture quite a bit. I don't have the latest gen JVC but this past weekend I spent time at a local showroom watching a couple of movies for about 30 minutes on an NX9. I personally could not detect any artifacts whatsoever - yellowing, blooming, clipping, whatever.

I think it should be noted that for most normal viewing none of this is a factor unless one wants to find it and takes the effort to do so. For most people who do not watch end credits or stare at white patterns, this is non-issue. That doesn't mean JVC should not be held liable to fix it quickly, but just providing perspective.
No offense, but Yellow DI for the new 4K series is pervasive for SDR content - so observations from previous generation do not really apply.

It is visible not just for end credits or some test patterns. It is very much visible on actual content e.g., night scenes, some indoor scenes, etc. And it is not limited to just white color, there is a shift of color tone across the spectrum.


If all you watched are bright movie demos at a showroom, you wont really see the issue.

Some people with relatively small screens might be able to clamp down manual iris to -10 and get around the color shift, but others with large screens 110" or larger that is not an option.

Good thing is that JVC appears to be working on it. So we will wait and watch ... with Iris set to Manual

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post #10322 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Some people with relatively small screens might be able to clamp down manual iris to -10 and get around the color shift, but others with large screens 110" or larger that is not an option.
I guess I am one of the really fortunate ones. My screen is a 120" wide scope screen, but I have a higher gain screen. So for SDR I can clamp down my iris (currently at -12 in my "experimentation phase"), and I have a bright picture with no yellowing or any other artifacts that I can see.

I think one of the benefits of Nigel's "research" is that it gives more clarity to when people might experience a problem and when they will not. Still, like everyone else, I hope a solution is on the way that will work for everyone.
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post #10323 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yeah I got muddled thinking about laser diodes...

You guys are right that regarding HVP sensitivity it's Green > Red > Blue

That said, I still don't think JVC has deliberately boosted the Green and Red and thereby skewed the white balance out of whack as part of the intended DI functionality...

By the way, just curious... what Iris setting do you have your JVC projector set to for SDR?
I don't think they have either, I think it is more likely a limit of processing.

On my X7900 I have it at -10 which gets me 48cd/m2 calibrated on the Screen Research Clearpix4k at 92" more or less max zoom. I don't have DI enabled on my X7900 as even at -10 I still notice the occasional issue with gamma melt etc.

For HDR I set it to only about 75 nits, which lets me keep low lamp and the iris a bit closed still (-5). With the tone mapping in the Lumagen I find the HDR content to be still stunning at that level and I have a contrast gain. The more I look at it the more I see large, dark room HDR presentation as more of a contrast play than a brightness play. Works for me so happy days.

I'm not sure if you saw my post further up; I had tested changing the iris to 0 and then enabling DI and with a 50% grey patch I also saw yellowing. I don't think this is new to the new series. There are some really interesting effects, like how for a 50% grey patch it actually got brighter with the DI on than with the DI off!

One thing that would be a really interesting piece of the puzzle is whether if you perform the 5 iris position colour autocal steps that the DI yellowing goes away or is minimized. It might well have an effect.
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post #10324 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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On my X7900 I have it at -10 which gets me 48cd/m2 calibrated on the Screen Research Clearpix4k at 92" more or less max zoom.
Which is kinda my point... If you owned this JVC NX9 you would already be operating it with the iris set to -10, meaning you would be yet another example of someone who would not be experiencing the DI yellowing

Of course there are folks with large sized screens who would not be able to take advantage of the workaround in this regard without SDR image peak luminance dipping below the recommended 14 fL; however, there are plenty of folks who can

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I'm not sure if you saw my post further up; I had tested changing the iris to 0 and then enabling DI and with a 50% grey patch I also saw yellowing. I don't think this is new to the new series.
I did see that and I agree this is a pre-existing phenomenon. Even more reason for JVC to fix it!

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One thing that would be a really interesting piece of the puzzle is whether if you perform the 5 iris position colour autocal steps that the DI yellowing goes away or is minimized. It might well have an effect.
I would most certainly do this if not for the fact the AutoCal Software for the new series has significant bugs and issues, so I don't want to go there until after these are resolved...

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post #10325 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 01:45 PM
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Sorry, I have laser diodes on the brain. Ranking of RGB laser diodes performance differs from HVP sensitivity, wherein there are reasons why singular blue laser projectors use blue laser diodes and not green

Yes, HVP is most sensitive to green, followed by red, and then blue, but it is interesting to note that this is perception and not measured power. The human eye is far more sensitive to green than red, so if you were to view a red and green light source of equal power side by side, the green laser would appear far brighter than the red one, even though the measured power is the same

Either way, are you suggesting that JVC has deliberately boosted the green and red? Because that is not my understanding from my discussions with JVC regarding the matter...

And how does this "make sense" exactly, when doing so is "ruining the picture by shifting the RGB balance"?
Obivously you have to look at the context of this statement. You were saying that it didn't make sense to boost red because it was the weakest color, that it would make more sense to boost blue and green. So, in that context, I corrected your statement and said that if we were talking about the strongest colors, then it would make sense to boost red and green. Obviously not i in a way that messes up the RGB balance, as it currently happens.

My understanding at this stage is that JVC are boosting the gains when the DI is enabled. Ideally, they would boost all the channels so that they don't change the RGB balance, but that's the same of raising contrast, so if they do this no wonder that they clip highlights. That really doesn't sound like a good idea, especially if they don't boost all three channels equally. They said that there was no gamma manipulation at all with Auto2, but whether it's boosting gains, gamma manipulation or a combination or both, they are destroying the picture, especially when the manual iris is fully open in HDR, so they need to reconsider.


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Please don't overreact. I am not trivializing the issue. I have repeatedly stated that the issue needs to be fixed by JVC and I have been in direct communication with JVC accordingly regarding this.

My observations are observations, nothing more, nothing less. Please take them as such.

The fact of the matter is that many people with typical (as in not large size) screen sizes will have the iris closed down for SDR anyway, as has already been confirmed by numerous owners, which explains why they have not been experiencing the phenomenon when others have.

Furthermore, being solution orientated, I thought it might be helpful to share these workarounds to the issue that folks can choose to use or not use whilst we are waiting for JVC to fix the issue. This provides an alternative to simply not using the DI and turning it off. In other words, my investigation has revealed settings that can be used with the RS3000/NX9 that allow you to use the DI without the issue spoiling the party. Surely this is a good thing, no?

Sorry if I missed your post(s) but for a variety of reasons I have not had time to follow nor post much in these forums for a while and I don't have time to wade through many thousands of posts across multiple threads.

Either way, well done for having explained the impact of reducing the manual iris on DI artifacts a few months ago. You contributions continue to be invaluable. My intentions here are simply to contribute as well and help out some of these fine gentlemen and ladies, as far as my limited available free time at the moment permits.

As mentioned this initial investigation relates to the JVC RS3000/NX9. I was intending on also similarly evaluating the RS2000/N7 and RS1000/N5 to see if there are any similar workarounds or settings that also might improves matters to the extent that the DI might still be usable. But it sounds like you have already covered this so no need to me to (again) retread old ground that you yourself have already covered.

Can you please kindly post some links to your posts in this regard, because I am sure that there are others, like me, who must have missed them and don't have time to trawl through thousands of posts to locate them. Furthermore I would like to add these posts of yours to the home pages of of this thread as they clearly will be a valuable resource. Many thanks in advance

I'm not overreacting. I have also been in contact with JVC to solve this issues, and I've taken your post as observations, but your observations don't make much sense. You stated more than once than with typical size screen, this was a non-issue. I simply corrected your statement: typical screen size in the UK, and in SDR, where you can indeed close the manual iris down to -10 or below, hence see very little artifacts.

It is very much of an issue in HDR, especially in the U.S., where there is no brightness in reserve, given that even the smallest screens would struggle to get 200nits in high lamp, and the typical screen size (100" or more scope AR) struggles to reach 100nits in HDR.

So your "non-issue" observation doesn't make sense to most non-U.K. users who watch HDR content on a typical screen size (100" or more scope AR).

I didn't say that your measurements were pointless by the way, they are useful to confirm and measure the visual observations that have been made repeatedly in the thread, along with the workarounds (which, again, are not an option for most users watching HDR on a typical screen size).

I can't find the earlier posts where I detailed the way to minimise the DI artifacts, but here are a few recent links in the past 4-6 weeks where the workaround was clearly stated:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57700874

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57689776

The workaround was also in the detailed report I sent you by email last month (this is the report I sent to JVC through Mike), mentioned here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57827018, which covered both the DI issues and the forced YCC422 colorspace issue.

I have also explained both the issues and the workaround in my early impressions in the calibration thread for the new models as far back as mid-February, so really there is nothing new here.

I don't mind if you link your post rather than mine, frankly it doesn't matter. My "observation" wasn't directed exclusively at you.

It's just really annoying to see people who use the DI in SDR with the manual iris almost fully closed, and state that there is no issue with the DI, simply because they don't read what has been posted many times. So I'll put it in big and bold here, maybe some will finally catch it: if your manual iris is closed down to -10 or more, there will be little to no artifacts when the DI is enabled (but there is also less and less benefit from the DI the further you close down the manual iris setting).

Same for those who have an rs3000 and state that they can't see any blooming/clipping, when it has been posted many times as well that for some reason this issue doesn't seem to be present on the rs3000. So I'll do the same here: If you have an RS3000, apparently there is no blooming/clipping of highlights with the DI enabled. Lucky you!.

And just in case some might have missed the conclusion: If you have an rs3000 and if you close the manual iris to -10 or further, there will be little to no artifacts when you switch the DI on. Jackpot for you! One day, try to play HDR content and set the manual iris to fully open, that might change your opinion on the DI though (unless your screen is the size of a postage stamp).

So anything you can your end do to miminize these pointless posts would be most welcome

And one last bit, just for fun: if you are annoyed by the DI artifacts, simply switch if off and enjoy a gorgeous, stable, contrasty, artifact-free picture until JVC brings a fix. That's what I did..

There. I feel better

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post #10326 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 01:52 PM
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Which is kinda my point... If you owned this JVC NX9 you would already be operating it with the iris set to -10, meaning you would be yet another example of someone who would not be experiencing the DI yellowing
Sure, in fact I believe on my X7900 if I did the same test of the iris set to -10 and checked the white point, then enabled DI, I'm sure it probably behaves similarly and there will be less or no yellowing (though my interest has already wained). Just like the X7900 also doesn't close down the iris fully with DI if you have the iris fairly open; yet that had also been credited as being new on the RSx000 series. I think the fact is that the most recent generations of JVC units just hadn't really had that much in-depth technical teardown as they weren't that interesting being not much different to previous years models.

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Of course there are folks with large sized screens who would not be able to take advantage of the workaround in this regard without SDR image peak luminance dipping below the recommended 14 fL; however, there are plenty of folks who can
I'm not sure it classes as a workaround, I think it is "just the way it is". If you have a screen of a certain size you should be setting iris to whatever gets you reference for SDR.

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I did see that and I agree this is a pre-existing phenomenon. Even more reason for JVC to fix it!
Good luck... . If it is existing I'm sure they know all about it and there will be reasons it is still there...

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I would most certainly do this if not for the fact the AutoCal Software for the new series has significant bugs and issues, so I don't want to go there until after these are resolved...
I thought there had been a bugfix release, but I must say I don't keep on top of it enough to know where it is at currently.
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post #10327 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 02:05 PM
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One thing that would be a really interesting piece of the puzzle is whether if you perform the 5 iris position colour Autocal steps that the DI yellowing goes away or is minimized. It might well have an effect.
If you manually step through the 4 ranges (e.g., with manual iris at 0, -4, -8, -12) you should be able to confirm if the yellowing would be remedied by autocal. Somehow I don’t think so.
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post #10328 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 02:17 PM
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If you manually step through the 4 ranges (e.g., with manual iris at 0, -4, -8, -12) you should be able to confirm if the yellowing would be remedied by autocal. Somehow I don’t think so.
I think it just needs trying. I know so far very few have done any significant autocal work on the new series, which could be responsible for this being more noticed on the new units, and as in my other post it could be that there is less work being done in the factory so perhaps tables which used to have unique data now have identical data. It could also be that the operation is no different at all to the previous series, but that the scale of the discoloration is greater for a given iris range and so it is much more noticeable. All just theories until tested

I don't think manually stepping through the iris ranges proves everything (unless you mean do the autocal, then manually step through the ranges, enabling DI at each range boundary, and measure). It isn't a given that the autocal iris colour correction is used at all with the DI originated iris closing - it is possible the colour correction is only applied to the static "start point" iris position.
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post #10329 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you manually step through the 4 ranges (e.g., with manual iris at 0, -4, -8, -12) you should be able to confirm if the yellowing would be remedied by autocal. Somehow I don’t think so.
I also don't believe it is the case, but I'll try to confirm the next time I run the Autocal. There is no yellowing if you simply close the manual iris through the ranges without enabling the DI (if this is the test your are suggesting).

The yellowing is much less of an issue (to me) than the highlights clipping/blooming, and that's not connected to an RGB balance problem, as there is no tint shift, just a huge loss of detail (I think this is what Bobof calls "gamma melting"). That's why I didn't spend too much time looking into the yellowing, because even if we could correct this with the Autocal (which I doubt, like you), we'd still have the highlights clipping/blooming.

What is weird is that while I wasn't able to recreate the issue on the UB900 and with madVR in HDR passthrough, I now have the issue irrespective of the source/calibration. I might try to restore my .INIT file and see if this is something that was changed by the Autocal.

Although I do like the stability and accuracy of the picture with the DI disabled, so I'm tempted to only revisit when/if JVC delivers a f/w that is expected to improve one or more of these issues with the DI implementation.
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post #10330 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 02:38 PM
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If you mean SDR in the UK, yeah, sure
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
So typical size in SDR in the UK, maybe, but typical size in HDR worldwide and especially in the U.S. where a whole family could live in the space dedicated to the cinema room, certainly not.
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(considered small even in Hobbit land)
Can we leave generalizations out of this, please?

This has nothing to do with the UK, and there's no reason to make it about that.

The thing I've been most surprised when viewing these forums is how the 'prevailing wisdom' almost seems to be to not go for the largest screen size. The most expert contributors seem to converge on the 125"-135" screen size (give or take) - and that size could probably get away with what Arrow is suggesting for SDR. He already noted that it wouldn't apply for HDR but that the issue is reduced. The average screen size on here surprised me, as a UK person going for a 180" screen (look how I just broke the mould).

Side note: In the UK, you can buy a whole castle with thousands of square meters for less than a one bed flat in the city center, if you wanted to. It's just supply/demand - same as anywhere.
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post #10331 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not overreacting. I have also been in contact with JVC to solve this issues, and I've taken your post as observations, but your observations don't make much sense. You stated more than once than with typical size screen, this was a non-issue. I simply corrected your statement: typical screen size in the UK, and in SDR, where you can indeed close the manual iris down to -10 or below, hence see very little artifacts.
With the utmost respect I do think my observations make sense. So let's agree to disagree regarding this if that's OK

I made very clear that I was referring specifically to SDR with respect to the -10 iris setting, so you have not corrected my statement, but have simply repeated what I already said. You might want to go back and reread my posts

Yes, you have clearly previously posted your own observations and feedback, including the fact that very few artefacts are seen when the iris is closed to -10 or below... HOWEVER, and please correct me if I am wrong, were you referring to a JVC RS3000/NX9, which is what I have been evaluating? Or was it by any chance a JVC RS2000/N7? Because we cannot assume that different models will behave in precisely the same exact manner; where in fact, it would appear that there are aspects that affect the latter which do not seem to afflict the former, such as the gamma crush that you have previously astutely observed and pointed out.

Have you personally comprehensively evaluated all three models yourself, namely JVC RS3000/NX9, JVC RS2000/N7, and JVC RS1000/N5? If not, then what is your problem regarding there being more than one person carrying out investigations regarding the different models?

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It is very much of an issue in HDR, especially in the U.S., where there is no brightness in reserve, given that even the smallest screens would struggle to get 200nits in high lamp, and the typical screen size (100" or more scope AR) struggles to reach 100nits in HDR.

So your "non-issue" observation doesn't make sense to most non-U.K. users who watch HDR content on a typical screen size (100" or more scope AR).

I didn't say that your measurements were pointless by the way, they are useful to confirm and measure the visual observations that have been made repeatedly in the thread, along with the workarounds (which, again, are not an option for most users watching HDR on a typical screen size).
Again, please reread my posts properly. You will note that I do not recommend setting the iris to anything lower than 0 for HDR. In fact, I state that most people won't want to reduce the iris setting with HDR due to needing the higher light output.


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I have also explained both the issues and the workaround in my early impressions in the calibration thread for the new models as far back as mid-February, so really there is nothing new here.
Question: Is "the calibration thread for the new models" on this forum? It isn't... is it? Because 'here' = this forum, not over 'there' in another forum.

If you've previously posted something that is the same as I have, but in a completely different forum, then you are hardly in a position to criticize me for posting something similar on this forum

Either way, sorry to have clearly irritated you by posting "nothing new" but it looks like some folks found what I posted to be of interest and at least some usefulness... But anyway

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I don't mind if you link your post rather than mine, frankly it doesn't matter. My "observation" wasn't directed exclusively at you.

It's just really annoying to see people who use the DI in SDR with the manual iris almost fully closed, and state that there is no issue with the DI, simply because they don't read what has been posted many times.
Again, it's clear you haven't read my posts properly, so let's leave it there... I have never said "there is no issue with the DI" have I? Go and read what I actually said will you, without twisting it or taking stuff out of context. Thanks

And again, sorry to have irritated you by apparently posting "what has been posted many times". I must have missed your posts with all the same measurements and data that I posted


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So I'll put it in big and bold here, maybe some will finally catch it: if your manual iris is closed down to -10 or more, there will be little to no artifacts when the DI is enabled (but there is also less and less benefit from the DI the further you close down the manual iris setting).

Same for those who have an rs3000 and state that they can't see any blooming/clipping, when it has been posted many times as well that for some reason this issue doesn't seem to be present on the rs3000. So I'll do the same here: If you have an RS3000, apparently there is no blooming/clipping of highlights with the DI enabled. Lucky you!.

And just in case some might have missed the conclusion: If you have an rs3000 and if you close the manual iris to -10 or further, there will be little to no artifacts when you switch the DI on. Jackpot for you! One day, try to play HDR content and set the manual iris to fully open, that might change your opinion on the DI though (unless your screen is the size of a postage stamp).

So anything you can your end do to miminize these pointless posts would be most welcome

And one last bit, just for fun: if you are annoyed by the DI artifacts, simply switch if off and enjoy a gorgeous, stable, contrasty, artifact-free picture until JVC brings a fix. That's what I did..

There. I feel better
Well sorry to hear that you consider my posts to be "pointless"... I clearly must try harder in future!

Either way, glad you feel better. If you're happy, I'm happy

.

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post #10332 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 02:56 PM
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Can we leave generalizations out of this, please?

This has nothing to do with the UK, and there's no reason to make it about that.

The thing I've been most surprised when viewing these forums is how the 'prevailing wisdom' almost seems to be to not go for the largest screen size. The most expert contributors seem to converge on the 125"-135" screen size (give or take) - and that size could probably get away with what Arrow is suggesting for SDR. He already noted that it wouldn't apply for HDR but that the issue is reduced. The average screen size on here surprised me, as a UK person going for a 180" screen (look how I just broke the mould).

Side note: In the UK, you can buy a whole castle with thousands of square meters for less than a one bed flat in the city center, if you wanted to. It's just supply/demand - same as anywhere.
I live in the UK and my screen is 88" diag 16/9. I'd love to move to a larger house, but I need at least £150,000. Please let me know if you would like to wire them to me

If you look at most UK users, you will see that they (we) typically have a screen size of under 100". 88", 90", 92", maybe 94" are the most common sizes I see. Anything above 100" is quite rare. Going for a 180" is simply foolish if unity gain, irrespective of the real estate needed, unless you have no interest in 3D and 4K HDR.

If you are only watching SDR, why are you getting a new model? There are better options, for a low less money, including in JVC's range.

Saying that you can simply lower the manual iris setting to resolve the issue is nonsense.

You set the manual iris to get what you need in SDR. Usually around 50nits in a dedicated room, though some like a brighter image. Can you get away with a dimmer picture? Sure, but I don't want to. I get 60nits in SDR with the iris set to -12, get no DI artifacts and that's fine.

In HDR, I want at least 100nits, at most 150nits. With the iris fully open in low lamp, I get 115nits. That's fine to give me a bit of headroom as the bulb ages. There is no way I'm going to lower the manual iris to -10 (I still get artifacts at -7) and get only 70nits in HDR. What's the point of HDR if it's to not have enough headroom for highlights compared to SDR? I don't want to use high lamp either due to fan noise, heat (especially in the summer, even in the UK), power use and bulb life. So there is no workaround for me in HDR, and that's with an 88" diag 16/9 screen. Which is, even in hobbit land (where I live) considered a small screen.

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post #10333 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 02:56 PM
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Just remember @ARROW-AV , no good deed goes unpunished.... or in the eternal words of Al Swearengen: "The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back."
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post #10334 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
The most expert contributors seem to converge on the 125"-135" screen size (give or take) - and that size could probably get away with what Arrow is suggesting for SDR.
I guess it will be screen gain dependent. My Screen Research Clearpix 4K AT fabric (woven) will be similar to most woven screens (I guess around 0.8) and at max zoom -10 iris only gets me the required SDR levels with my 92", which is tiny compared to a 125-135". A 135" screen on the same fabric at -10 for my PJ (x7900) would be less than half reference SDR.
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post #10335 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:01 PM
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Stop busting each others balls on the testing methodology, and get to the summarized conclusion, and I'm sure whatever conclusion you guys come to, will be likely on the mark, or close enough. If someone wants to note a technicality someone else missed, that's fine, but don't act like because someone missed some minor detail that they are shooting blanks.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I live in the UK and my screen is 88" diag 16/9. I'd love to move to a larger house, but I need at least £150,000. Please let me know if you would like to wire them to me

If you look at most UK users, you will see that they (we) typically have a screen size of under 100". 88", 90", 92", maybe 94" are the most common sizes I see. Anything above 100" is quite rare.
No, that isn't my experience. But even if it was, the threshold is screen size. Not which country the person is from. That's generalization, and why we shouldn't do it.

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Going for a 180" is simply foolish if unity gain, irrespective of the real estate needed, unless you have no interest in 3D and 4K HDR. If you are only watching SDR, why are you getting a new model? There are better options, for a low less money, including in JVC's range.
Firstly, I'll decide whether my choices and preferences of projector screen size are 'foolish' - not you.
Secondly - this isn't about me. Just like it isn't about the country someone is from. So I'm not going to explain my legitimate reasons/requirements (here, anyway) as it's not relevant to this conversation.

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Saying that you can simply lower the manual iris setting to resolve the issue is nonsense.

You set the manual iris to get what you need in SDR. Usually around 50nits in a dedicated room, though some like a brighter image. Can you get away with a dimmer picture? Sure, but I don't want to. I get 60nits in SDR with the iris set to -12, get no DI artifacts and that's fine.

In HDR, I want at least 100nits, at most 150nits. With the iris fully open in low lamp, I get 115nits. That's fine to give me a bit of headroom as the bulb ages. There is no way I'm going to lower the manual iris to -10 (I still get artifacts at -7) and get only 70nits in HDR. What's the point of HDR if it's to not have enough headroom for highlights compared to SDR? I don't want to use high lamp either due to fan noise, heat (especially in the summer, even in the UK), power use and bulb life. So there is no workaround for me in HDR, and that's with an 88" diag 16/9 screen. Which is, even in hobbit land (where I live) considered a small screen.
He didn't say it 'resolved the issue', and he specifically recommended against it for HDR. He said it's a way of dealing with the problem for some users in SDR - until it is properly fixed.
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post #10337 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:04 PM
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I know with all this Auto DI yellowing talk I have also mentioned the clipping that also happens with the DI.

I decided to take a video of it since I haven't really seen that many people talking about it and not much for examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70j-leaPVOU

This is in HDR, high lamp, iris 0, simply bringing up the JVC menu, and then closing it. I can see that the clipping fades in and out in conjunction with the iris closing and opening. The farther the iris moves, the greater the clipping becomes.

This happens on my NX5 and I have confirmed with my eyes it happens pretty much the same on the NX7. However I do not believe that the NX9 is affected by this from what I know and have seen myself so far.
Great, another "issue" to add to the expanding list. What a hot mess.
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post #10338 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:09 PM
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Firstly, I'll decide whether my choices and preferences of projector screen size are 'foolish' - not you.
Secondly - this isn't about me. Just like it isn't about the country someone is from. So I'm not going to explain my legitimate reasons/requirements (here, anyway) as it's not relevant to this conversation.
I think this may have caused me to laugh for the first time in 5 years.
I wonder what the average screen size is around downtown Tokyo, lol...

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post #10339 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:09 PM
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I guess it will be screen gain dependent. My Screen Research Clearpix 4K AT fabric (woven) will be similar to most woven screens (I guess around 0.8) and at max zoom -10 iris only gets me the required SDR levels with my 92", which is tiny compared to a 125-135". A 135" screen on the same fabric at -10 for my PJ (x7900) would be less than half reference SDR.
Good point. I guess the NX9 does have a few more lumens though (albeit not much).

I don't know exactly what the threshold is - I remember Mark for example runs SDR on quite a low level.
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post #10340 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:13 PM
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Yes, I figured. I’m just not sure how much extra I should charge if I’m including the glasses and emitter with the projector I’m selling.
Keep what you have, don't sell it with the projector. You would get pennies on the dollar for them used anyway........
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post #10341 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:22 PM
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With the utmost respect I do think my observations make sense. So let's agree to disagree regarding this if that's OK

I made very clear that I was referring specifically to SDR with respect to the -10 iris setting, so you have not corrected my statement, but have simply repeated what I already said. You might want to go back and reread my posts
Here is the post I quoted in my reply to you:

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Nice theory, but in practice if deliberate you would not choose to boost the red, because red light is the weakest regards increasing image luminance; so you would choose to boost blue and/or green.

No I really don't think this is deliberate, but a unintentional flaw/fault, and as such it is something that needs fixing. Although, as far as the latest JVC RS3000/NX9 that I evaluated is concerned the issue is for all intensive purposes with respect to typical screen sizes pretty much a non-issue.
It was the second time (at least) that you stated it was a non issue, mentioning typical screen sizes, without mentioning SDR. Sorry but that's exactly what you wrote. If you had qualified your statements as applying only to SDR or UK sized screen, why would I have corrected you? We've all been saying this for weeks And if you did state this in previous posts and I missed it, then I apologize.

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Yes, you have clearly previously posted your own observations and feedback, including the fact that very few artefacts are seen when the iris is closed to -10 or below... HOWEVER, and please correct me if I am wrong, were you referring to a JVC RS3000/NX9, which is what I have been evaluating? Or was it by any chance a JVC RS2000/N7? Because we cannot assume that different models will behave in precisely the same exact manner; where in fact, it would appear that there are aspects that affect the latter which do not seem to afflict the former, such as the gamma crush that you have previously astutely observed and pointed out.

Have you personally comprehensively evaluated all three models yourself, namely JVC RS3000/NX9, JVC RS2000/N7, and JVC RS1000/N5? If not, then what is your problem regarding there being more than one person carrying out investigations regarding the different models?
No, I haven't tested all three models, but unlike you (from your own admission) I read this thread, so I have compiled feedback from many users reporting various issues and various degrees of issues and I have read feedback from reviewers and users I trust. I have commented on the impact on the manual iris setting for *all* models, including the previous gen. They had similar issues, and the workaround has always been the same. I haven't found that earlier post, but I explained clearly (other had done so before, I might even have linked to an earlier reference post) that as you reduce close the manual iris, the artifacts are reduced, simply because the iris has less work to do. It was the same when we had pumping on credits, or gamma artifacts on the first models with a DI: reduce the manual iris setting, hence reduce the amount of work for (and benefit from) the DI, and the artifacts progressively go away. If you look at the iris, you will see that below -10 it barely moves anyway on the new models. It's most closed position if much more open than with previous gens.

And I certainly don't have any problem with more than one person making observations (many others have done so in the thread), as long as they don't come up with the wrong conclusion (this is a non issue on typical screen sizes) or make it look like they have found some kind of workaround which 1) has been discussed many times and 2) is not a workaround for most/many people, at least in HDR.

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Again, please reread my posts properly. You will note that I do not recommend setting the iris to anything lower than 0 for HDR. In fact, I state that most people won't want to reduce the iris setting with HDR due to needing the higher light output.

Yes, in old posts, for sure. Not in your recent posts declaring the yellowing a non-issue for typical screen size, as if closing the iris was a solution for HDR content as well. Reread your quote above in bold....


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Question: Is "the calibration thread for the new models" on this forum? It isn't... is it? Because 'here' = this forum, not over 'there' in another forum.

If you've previously posted something that is the same as I have, but in a completely different forum, then you are hardly in a position to criticize me for posting something similar on this forum

Either way, sorry to have clearly irritated you by posting "nothing new" but it looks like some folks found what I posted to be of interest and at least some usefulness... But anyway

When will you read my posts?

1) I posted quite a few links from this forum (at your request)
2) I reminded you that I sent you a month ago by email the full report I sent to JVC, in which I mentioned all the tests and the workaround
3) Yes, there is on top of that a full thread in another forum where you can get some information if you are interesting in these new models. I mentioned it in addition to the other sources (at your request by the way), two from this forum and one email in your mailbox, to which your replied just to remind you
4) You haven't irritated me at all. The bold and large letters in the previous post were *not* directed at you. I even said that, clearly, but you're not reading what I write


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Again, it's clear you haven't read my posts properly, so let's leave it there... I have never said "there is no issue with the DI" have I? Go and read what I actually said will you, without twisting it or taking stuff out of context. Thanks

Pot? Kettle? Black? Read my previous post, you will see that the bold wasn't directed at you!!!!!!!!!


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And again, sorry to have irritated you by apparently posting "what has been posted many times". I must have missed your posts with all the same measurements and data that I posted
No, you simply haven't read my last post entirely. I guess that the danger when you put big bold letters is that some people will only read these

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Well sorry to hear that you consider my posts to be "pointless"... I clearly must try harder in future!
I stated the exact opposite, so I'm not sure where that comes from. I said clearly that your measurements were useful to confirm what we had visually observed. Again, read my posts (not only the part in big, large letters that was NOT intended to you), that should clear things up.

I was asking you to do something about this, as you were asking for some links to put in the first post. Again, anything you can do IN THE FIRST POST to limit these posts due to people who don't read the thread would be useful. But they probably won't read the first post either I guess

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Either way, glad you feel better. If you're happy, I'm happy
Hopefully you'll be even happier when you'll realize how much of this was a misunderstanding

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post #10342 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:31 PM
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Great, another "issue" to add to the expanding list. What a hot mess.
I mean its very closely related to the yellowing. It's all caused by the adjustment of the image as part of the DI algorithm.

But it's completely fixable, just turn off the DI.

A DI is always going to be a cruch, or a tradeoff. You are altering the image. There are always going to be negative things caused by a DI. How severe the negatives are depends on many factors and also an individuals tolerance of them.

For instance, many people find the DI on the eShift JVCs to be un-usable because of the visible pumping, so they chose to disable it. Is that another "issue"? The earlier JVCs had banding when CMD was enabled. You can pick apart any electronic device and find "issues" based on your own personal preference and tolerance. What's good though is that there are options that can be changed or disabled to essentially eliminate the "issues" if you do not want to make the tradeoff. Each of these "features" adds something and subtracts something, that's what makes it a tradeoff that each individual must choose to make.

What is important is that people do understand these trade-offs before they choose to buy. So I can see how the people who pre-ordered before being able to see for themselves can be disappointed.
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post #10343 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave T View Post
Yes, I figured. I’m just not sure how much extra I should charge if I’m including the glasses and emitter with the projector I’m selling.
Keep what you have, don't sell it with the projector. You would get pennies on the dollar for them used anyway........
Well I have a buyer who wants the 3D stuff. So I’m wondering what it would cost to replace. I actually haven’t used it in a very long time. I do really like 3D. Avatar was awesome. But I mostly stream what I watch and there’s no 3D there. It seems like the industry has moved away from 3D. To wit - they included it with my last projector, but not this one.
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post #10344 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Firstly, I'll decide whether my choices and preferences of projector screen size are 'foolish' - not you.
Secondly - this isn't about me. Just like it isn't about the country someone is from. So I'm not going to explain my legitimate reasons/requirements (here, anyway) as it's not relevant to this conversation.
I agree, let's leave out what's irrelevant to this conversation. So three questions:

1) Do you have any interest in watching HDR content?
2) If you do, what is your peak brightness when watching HDR content on your 180" screen?
3) What is your screen gain?

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post #10345 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:41 PM
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Good point. I guess the NX9 does have a few more lumens though (albeit not much).

I don't know exactly what the threshold is - I remember Mark for example runs SDR on quite a low level.
Indeed, it has a few more (not as many as you think if you take away the 16:9 vs 17:9 pixels issue). If you engage the colour filter of course you loose more on the N series than on the older series I have (and some units will definitely need the colour filter to hit REC709 targets). Some (install dependent) can use high lamp for approx +45% increase. So you could probably just about get there in high lamp with this screen material, and if you don't have a low gain AT screen I'm sure you can get there quite easily.

I think 12-16FtL is the typical range folks go for for SDR, with 14FtL being notionally the standard. I used to have something that only hit around 7-8FtL and it was still quite watchable, but 14 looks much better.
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post #10346 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 03:42 PM
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Great, another "issue" to add to the expanding list. What a hot mess.
Jmouse, are you experiencing this clipping on your unit? How bad is it and when did you first notice it? I forget, what model do you have again?
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post #10347 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 04:06 PM
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I did see that and I agree this is a pre-existing phenomenon. Even more reason for JVC to fix it!

So is this a pre-existing issue with the Eshift units also? Or is it not? Or is it more pronounced in the NX series? This is confusing.
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post #10348 of 28743 Old 04-23-2019, 04:35 PM
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Indeed, it has a few more (not as many as you think if you take away the 16:9 vs 17:9 pixels issue). If you engage the colour filter of course you loose more on the N series than on the older series I have (and some units will definitely need the colour filter to hit REC709 targets). Some (install dependent) can use high lamp for approx +45% increase. So you could probably just about get there in high lamp with this screen material, and if you don't have a low gain AT screen I'm sure you can get there quite easily.

I think 12-16FtL is the typical range folks go for for SDR, with 14FtL being notionally the standard. I used to have something that only hit around 7-8FtL and it was still quite watchable, but 14 looks much better.
FYI the NX series doesn't necessarily lose more brightness than the older series, depending on the lamp mode. It only loses around 10% in high lamp with the P3 filter, and around 20% in low lamp. With the rs500 I had mesured around 15% but I can't remember if it was loss or gain, or if it was in high lamp or low lamp. For some reason, the measured loss is less in low lamp than in high lamp with the NX series, which is weird.

14-16fL is the sweet spot for me in a dedicated room for SDR. I can live with a bit more (up to 60-70nits) but I'd rather avoid having less than 50nits. I agree that if you lose brightness over time, you can get used to significantly less, but as soon as you put up a brighter picture you realise what you've been missing.

The same happens with HDR. While you can get a bright enough picture below 100nits peak white, when you do manage to get at least 100nits you realise what you've been missing not only with highlights compression, but also with saturation and contrast. I'm not saying that you can't get a very nice HDR picture with 75nits or less, with dynamic tonemapping you can, but there is no free lunch: the lower the peak, the more highlights compression and the less color saturation. My ideal is around 150nits. More than that in a dedicated room and I find some scenes uncomfortably bright. I would only want more than 150nits to get more saturation, not to get more brightness.

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So is this a pre-existing issue with the Eshift units also? Or is it not? Or is it more pronounced in the NX series? This is confusing.
I've shown at least one set of circumstances which show DI causing yellowing on X7900 eShift units, but I don't think it can be conclusively stated that it is more pronounced on N series. It might be though.
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FYI the NX series doesn't necessarily lose more brightness than the older series, depending on the lamp mode. It only loses around 10% in high lamp with the P3 filter, and around 20% in low lamp. With the rs500 I had mesured around 15% but I can't remember if it was loss or gain, or if it was in high lamp or low lamp. For some reason, the measured loss is less in low lamp than in high lamp with the NX series, which is weird.

14-16fL is the sweet spot for me in a dedicated room for SDR. I can live with a bit more (up to 60-70nits) but I'd rather avoid having less than 50nits. I agree that if you lose brightness over time, you can get used to significantly less, but as soon as you put up a brighter picture you realise what you've been missing.

The same happens with HDR. While you can get a bright enough picture below 100nits peak white, when you do manage to get at least 100nits you realise what you've been missing not only with highlights compression, but also with saturation and contrast. I'm not saying that you can't get a very nice HDR picture with 75nits or less, with dynamic tonemapping you can, but there is no free lunch: the lower the peak, the more highlights compression and the less color saturation. My ideal is around 150nits. More than that in a dedicated room and I find some scenes uncomfortably bright. I would only want more than 150nits to get more saturation, not to get more brightness.
For D65 white point my X7900 only loses something like 3% brightness in low lamp when calibrated with profile off filter on, so even at 10% it is a bit greater loss.

I don't think it is weird at all that the loss is less in high lamp. The gamut is wider in high lamp but the filter is the same. Wider gamut means there must be proportionally less yellow light in the lamp spectrum to filter out, which means you have to then cut less panel dynamic range (and hence light output) to get to D65 white.

I think it needs weighing carefully whether the gains from getting to around 150 nits are outweighed by the loss of contrast / raised black floor you incur. Myself, I can get to a max of 130 nits calibrated with my setup and high lamp iris 0, but the black floor is a fair bit more than twice as bright as 75 nits. Anyway, it is on my list of things to go back around and try again . Last time I tried higher than 75nits though I found a few scenes in content (perhaps poorly mastered, but it is what we have) which for me were uncomfortably bright in my dark room. As soon as it starts to make me squint I'm out, I don't think it is right for that to be the result. I guess we all have different thresholds for comfort.
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