Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 433 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 13296Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #12961 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 04:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,502
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4639 Post(s)
Liked: 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
They are not the same projector, that's true. You can tell that blindfolded just trying to pick them up !

Watched " Captain Marvel " on 4K Blu-ray tonight. That is one refined and detailed looking picture !
I don't agree. It didn't look bad by any means, but it was pretty soft compared to previous marvel movies. For example, black panther was a lot sharper and much more colorful. I think it was one of the worst 4K upscales I've seen. I compared the 4K UHD vs the 1080p Bluray run through madVR upscaler, and they were about the same. I guess that says a lot about madVR, but black panther was definitely better UHD vs Bluray + madVR upscale.

However, Captain Marvel was one of my all time favorite marvel movies to date. I loved it so much I watched it twice two days in a row. (I can't think of last time I rewatched movie).

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12962 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 05:00 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,502
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4639 Post(s)
Liked: 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Good Politically Correct Answer :P

I agree there is no exact replacement, but the NX7 has the similar MSRP, but the contrast isn't from the same 'premium' batch of panels like the RS-640 is.

Also only the NX-9 and RS-640 both share hand-picked parts to get max contrast numbers, even though the lens is different in the NX-9, the NX-9 also has hand picked panels and potentially polarizer++ versus NX-7 of polarizer+ or NX-5's vanilla polarizer.

This is why I do not consider the NX-7 the replacement of the RS-640, because NX-7 has no hand-picked parts nor does it have max specs on the polarizer. Only the NX-9 and RS-640.

NX-7 closer to MSRP of RS-640, but NX-9 closer to 'common sense' match of how the RS-640 was released with hand-picked parts and JVC finding the panels that had the highest contrast, just like the NX-9.
I don't see any evidence that the NX9 shares hand picked parts. In fact, JVC explicitly said that wasn't happening this round. The fact that the run of NX9's were all made first sort of indicates that perhaps that's not the case. Unless you consider all parts hand picked I think JVC's increased brightness and contrast was all supposedly attributed to the lens, somehow.

I talked with a few guys "in the know" and the concensus was that the NX9 really is not a hand-picked-parts type of machine. Unlike the RS4500 (which was really a no-hold-bars project) the NX9 was an attempt to give very high end at a much cheaper to build price. I think this might be why some folks like @woofer who has compared his RS4500 to 3 different NX9's has found the RS4500 considerably better than them. I'm sure this isn't the popular thing to say, but it is what it is.
tigerhonaker likes this.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #12963 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 05:04 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't see any evidence that the NX9 shares hand picked parts. In fact, JVC explicitly said that wasn't happening this round. The fact that the run of NX9's were all made first sort of indicates that perhaps that's not the case. Unless you consider all parts hand picked I think JVC's increased brightness and contrast was all supposedly attributed to the lens, somehow.
OK, that is marketing nomenclature anyhow, the contrast is higher than the NX-7, or is marketed that way. Just like the RS-640 contrast is higher than the RS-540.
The NX-7 was the middle release model, just like the RS-540 from the previous set, it was the first model to have the second iris, just like the RS-540.

When you match features, the NX-7 is closer to the RS-540 not the RS-640, contrast-wise too as the 640 has enhanced polarizer even beyond the RS-540 and potentially hand-picked panels.

If it did not, then it would not measure higher than the RS-540, and the NX-9 wouldn't measure much higher than the NX-7.

They either modified the polarizer or hand picked the panels or made the second iris have a smaller aperture, they had to do something or it wouldn't be higher contrast. Only the NX-9 and the RS-640 are the highest release from their set, have maximized polarizers or panels, and have the highest contrast rating of their release. Thy also have the highest model # and the highest MSRP from their original set.

That's why it makes zero logical sense to me to consider the RS-640 replacement an NX-7.

It's unlikely to be in the lens, because most LCOS contrast isn't lost in the lens unless the lens is really bad like an older Sony.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-20-2019 at 05:12 AM.
coderguy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12964 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 05:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,502
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4639 Post(s)
Liked: 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
OK, that is marketing nomenclature anyhow, the contrast is higher than the NX-7, or is marketed that way. Just like the RS-640 contrast is higher than the RS-540.
The NX-7 was the middle release model, just like the RS-540 from the previous set, it was the first model to have the second iris, just like the RS-540.

When you match features, the NX-7 is closer to the RS-540 not the RS-640, contrast-wise too as the 640 has enhanced polarizer even beyond the RS-540 and potentially hand-picked panels.

If it did not, then it would not measure higher than the RS-540, and the NX-9 wouldn't measure much higher than the NX-7.

They either modified the polarizer or picked better panels or made the second iris have a smaller aperture, they had to do something or it wouldn't be higher contrast. Only the NX-9 and the RS-640 are the highest release from their set, have maximized polarizers or panels, and have the highest contrast rating of their release. Thy also have the highest model # and the highest MSRP from their original set.

That's why it makes zero logical sense to me to consider the RS-640 replacement an NX-7.

It's unlikely to be in the lens, because most LCOS contrast isn't lost in the lens unless the lens is really bad like an older Sony.
Yea, there is no RS640 replacement this round. That would have been an NX7 with hand picked parts. That doesn't exist. However, there's a model that's got a far better lens for much more money this time. It'd be like if they took an RS540 and put a much better lens on it. That didn't exist last year.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #12965 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 05:16 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Yea, there is no RS640 replacement this round. That would have been an NX7 with hand picked parts. That doesn't exist. However, there's a model that's got a far better lens for much more money this time. It'd be like if they took an RS540 and put a much better lens on it. That didn't exist last year.
We agree to disagree.

That almost makes sense, except the issue is you are basing it on one feature change rather than the model set. This has never been how release sets are determined by default in manufacturing and retail, never. If I am discussing a release set of one year vs. a previous year at a meeting, it's always thought of as the matched release set. I know because I used to build product databases for supply chain stuff. In all my years, I can only think of two instances where this would have been true in a supply chain, and both times it was markedly removed from the MODEL series so there would be no confusion, or they would add a -xx at the end of it or something to differentiate it from its own series.

The fact is there are only 3 models in the series for both years, and NX-9 and RS-640 were the highest MSRP at the time within their own series, and both have modded polarizers/panels/aperture to get max contrast by default makes the NX-9 the replacement of the RS-640. You can argue semantics about a lens, or MSRP variance, but things like that are not what determine series sequencing from year to year in supply chain and retail.

If we go by MSRP, then the RS-640/67 are also not the same level, and if we go by lens, well the RS-640 has hand picked lens (supposedly) vs. NX-9 different lens. That's just them replacing the method of the lens improvement on the highest model of the set, not them replacing the ordinal position of how high a model within the set falls in its own chain.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-20-2019 at 05:23 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #12966 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 05:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,502
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4639 Post(s)
Liked: 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
We agree to disagree.

That almost makes sense, except the issue is you are basing it on one feature change rather than the model set. This has never been how release sets are determined by default in manufacturing and retail, never. If I am discussing a release set of one year vs. a previous year at a meeting, it's always thought of as the matched release set. I know because I used to build product databases for supply chain stuff. In all my years, I can only think of two instances where this would have been true in a supply chain, and both times it was markedly removed from the MODEL series so there would be no confusion, or they would add a -xx at the end of it or something to differentiate it from its own series.

The fact is there are only 3 models in the series for both years, and NX-9 and RS-640 were the highest MSRP at the time within their own series, and both have modded polarizers/panels/aperture to get max contrast by default makes the NX-9 the replacement of the RS-640. You can argue semantics about a lens, or MSRP variance, but things like that are not what determine series sequencing from year to year in supply chain and retail.

If we go by MSRP, then the RS-640/67 are also not the same level, and if we go by lens, well the RS-640 has hand picked lens (supposedly) vs. NX-9 different lens. That's just them replacing the method of the lens improvement on the highest model of the set, not them replacing the ordinal position of how high a model within the set falls in its own chain.
If I had to guess what was happening at JVC internally, I'd guess that they originally planned for the NX9 to be laser. But for whatever reasons and time lines, it didn't happen this time around. Perhaps they wanted to use up their supply of parts for the remaining RS4500's first. Who knows whats happening internally. But sometime in the future, I'd expect the RS1040, RS2040 to be lamp and the RS3040 to be laser. Probably something in the 2200 luman range. Then probably an RS4500 replacement some day in the $60k range. That's my prediction.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #12967 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 05:31 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
If I had to guess what was happening at JVC internally, I'd guess that they originally planned for the NX9 to be laser. But for whatever reasons and time lines, it didn't happen this time around. Perhaps they wanted to use up their supply of parts for the remaining RS4500's first. Who knows whats happening internally. But sometime in the future, I'd expect the RS1040, RS2040 to be lamp and the RS3040 to be laser. Probably something in the 2200 luman range. Then probably an RS4500 replacement some day in the $60k range. That's my prediction.
None of that has any affect on the supply chain and the way management looks at the numbers.

It's not how it will be thought of when management, like a CFO is looking at sales numbers. They raised the MSRP to find out if they could further differentiate the highest model of the set, and because of the cost of the lens was greater. They felt the need to change the lens because they obviously saw some data indicating the 'hand picked lens' on the RS-640 wasn't convincing enough people to pay more than the RS-540 from previous years. They likely did an 'economic price point' study and found there were issues with too many people going for the RS-540 over the RS-640, so they needed to re-evaluate and re-position the highest model between the RS-640 and RS-4500 for the next year. That is why they also raised the MSRP, but it doesn't change the way they see the grouping from one year to another in the supply chain.

None of that changes the way 'release sets' work in retail, they purposefully do it in matched sets partly because it makes it easier for management to analyze sales data, otherwise management loses an easy reference point and the financial data becomes harder to interpret.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-20-2019 at 05:37 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #12968 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 05:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Soccerdude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: South of NJ Turnpike
Posts: 1,208
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 335 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
This time around, there is no RS640 equivalent. Typically, JVC released 3 models:

Base model which was cheaper, 1 iris instead of 2, lower contrast. Last time this was RS440. This time this is NX5 / RS1000.
Next model up which was the real top end model doubling contrast and adding lamp iris. Last time this was RS540 this time it's the NX7 / RS2000.
Next model up which was the same as the previous model with only difference being hand picked parts. Last time this was RS640. This time that doesn't exist.
Instead, JVC released a very top end projector with much better lens and 8k e-shift. The better lens increases light output and contrast slightly. This is the NX9 / RS3000.

If you're looking for the RS640 replacement this round, its closest match is the NX7 / RS2000.
Thank you awesome explanation .
den110 likes this.

LG OLED C8 65 2018 , LG SL 10YG SoundBar. HT: JVC RS2000, Studio Tek 130 1.3 Gain Sscreen, Apple TV4k, Def Tech 9080/9060 Dolby Atmos Speakers, Denon X6500H , Oppo203 and a nagging wife.
Soccerdude is online now  
post #12969 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 05:34 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
The NX-7 has the second highest contrast of its set, whereas the RS-640 has the highest contrast of its set like the NX-9.
The NX-7 is the middle model in the release set, just like the RS-540 was in its set. And on and on...

Both NX-9 and RS-640 have improved lens, just in a differing method. RS-640 has hand-picked lens, NX-9 has actual different lens.
The NX-7 has no differing improvement of the lens vs. it's lower sibling the NX-5.

The NX-7 has one step up of improved polarizer/panel/aperture, just like the RS-540. The NX-9 and RS-640 are both two steps up in contrast from the base model. Both are highest MSRP in their set.
Not sure why this is so confusing to people, or how anyone can claim you can suddenly break all these rules in a supply chain and normalize based on a single 'outlier'.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-20-2019 at 05:51 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #12970 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 05:46 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
An argument could be made that the NX-9 is not the RS-640 replacement, though I disagree based on standards of how release sets are usually referred to.

However, there is no argument that can be made that the NX-7 is the RS-640 replacement, that makes zero sense, as there is nothing significant that matches in the set between the two (not even its release position), the only match is the MSRP but that is just because the way JVC picked the MSRP, that doesn't determine the ordinal position in a set comparison. This would violate the way the step-up models work in conjunction from previous years and just buck common sense.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-20-2019 at 05:52 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #12971 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 06:12 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Not sure what the obsession is over 640 equals this other new model, blah blah blah. Who cares? The new models are what they, are their price points, and their specs. If someone had a 640 before, the argument can be made that the customer is a buyer at that price point so the obvious recommendation would be the RS2000/NX7 at the same price point. Other than price they are two different models with different features and specs. The same for the entire line of current projectors compared to any previous line of projectors.
smitty, Willie, dlinsley and 5 others like this.
dgrizzard is offline  
post #12972 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 06:16 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgrizzard View Post
Not sure what the obsession is over 640 equals this other new model, blah blah blah. Who cares? The new models are what they, are their price points, and their specs. If someone had a 640 before, the argument can be made that the customer is a buyer at that price point so the obvious recommendation would be the RS2000/NX7 at the same price point. Other than price they are two different models with different features and specs. The same for the entire line of current projectors compared to any previous line of projectors.
Blah blah blah, it's not an obsession I am simply pointing out common sense of how this has always worked going back years and years with JVC (and supply chains in general), and it is simply an interesting discussion.

The big NO to your point is the RS-540 and NX-7 share the same contrast designs (or approach) for the polarizers/aperture, and so do the RS-640 and NX-9. The contrast is just lower overall on the new series due to changes to the panels for Native 4k, but the approach and how the parts works should be more similar than not internally between the NX-9 and RS-640. The NX-7 does not have exactly the same level of similarity in the design or it would not measure lower than the NX-9, nor does it have any differing lens improvement (which both RS-640 and NX-9 have).

Also I already stated my other points, closest matches are easily derived as:

RS-440 = NX-5, RS-540 = NX-7, RS-640 = ?? (NX-9 IMO)...

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-20-2019 at 06:26 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #12973 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 06:19 AM
Advanced Member
 
TheSony4KRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 551
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't see any evidence that the NX9 shares hand picked parts. In fact, JVC explicitly said that wasn't happening this round. The fact that the run of NX9's were all made first sort of indicates that perhaps that's not the case. Unless you consider all parts hand picked I think JVC's increased brightness and contrast was all supposedly attributed to the lens, somehow.

I talked with a few guys "in the know" and the concensus was that the NX9 really is not a hand-picked-parts type of machine. Unlike the RS4500 (which was really a no-hold-bars project) the NX9 was an attempt to give very high end at a much cheaper to build price. I think this might be why some folks like @woofer who has compared his RS4500 to 3 different NX9's has found the RS4500 considerably better than them. I'm sure this isn't the popular thing to say, but it is what it is.

One question as a prospective NX9 buyer.

In your comparison between the NX9 and your Z1 did the 8K eshift on the NX9 add any extra detail relative to the Z1?

If Woofer is reading maybe he can chime in.


Thanks in advance.
TheSony4KRises is offline  
post #12974 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 06:20 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,546
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11817 Post(s)
Liked: 9352
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
For those that are on the fence between the 4500 and the RS3000, JVC has just made the decision harder. JVC is bringing new firmware for the 4500, adding the auto tone mapping and the two Panasonic color profiles. Also adding around 30 new screen codes.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #12975 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 06:31 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
I would like to see a very unbiased comparison between the two models, but they are hard to come by. Everyone is saying the RS-4500 is still far superior, but on what basis if you take the laser out and just look purely at the image. Everyone has trouble with BIAS at higher price points as it increases greatly, there is an almost 'illness level' of BIAS when evaluating equipment at such high prices, and you can wrap both reviewers and sales people into this same mold. We all know the RS-4500 is superior because of the laser, but the real question is how much the projected image differs as a single trait.

The RS-3000 has the same lens and has higher native contrast than the RS-4500.

Per the 640 vs. NX-9, the MSRP's often jump higher on the highest-end model when major redesigns are made to help pay for R&D, it's nothing new and does not cause a break in the supply chain. Since they were raising the MSRP anyways to help pay for the R&D of the Native 4k in the lamp series, that is likely why they threw in the better lens to make it more of a reasonable jump.
Archibald1 likes this.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-20-2019 at 06:41 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #12976 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 07:29 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,782
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6616 Post(s)
Liked: 7689
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I would like to see a very unbiased comparison between the two models, but they are hard to come by. Everyone is saying the RS-4500 is still far superior, but on what basis if you take the laser out and just look purely at the image. Everyone has trouble with BIAS at higher price points as it increases greatly, there is an almost 'illness level' of BIAS when evaluating equipment at such high prices, and you can wrap both reviewers and sales people into this same mold. We all know the RS-4500 is superior because of the laser, but the real question is how much the projected image differs as a single trait.

The RS-3000 has the same lens and has higher native contrast than the RS-4500.

Per the 640 vs. NX-9, the MSRP's often jump higher on the highest-end model when major redesigns are made to help pay for R&D, it's nothing new and does not cause a break in the supply chain. Since they were raising the MSRP anyways to help pay for the R&D of the Native 4k in the lamp series, that is likely why they threw in the better lens to make it more of a reasonable jump.
The laser is one thing that makes the image different from a lamp based model - and better in my opinion. So you can't " take the laser out ".

Woofer's done a side by side comparison - and he expected the RS3000 to best his RS4500. Kris Deering probably has thoughts on this too, having seen numerous examples of each projector.
seanbryan, Manni01 and Archibald1 like this.
Craig Peer is online now  
post #12977 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 07:31 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Maybe...

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #12978 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 07:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1972 Post(s)
Liked: 2151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
For those that are on the fence between the 4500 and the RS3000, JVC has just made the decision harder. JVC is bringing new firmware for the 4500, adding the auto tone mapping and the two Panasonic color profiles. Also adding around 30 new screen codes.
Thats actually pretty cool. I'm probably on the wrong side of the fence for the RS4500 (the poor side ) but it still seems to be the benchmark.
Archibald1 likes this.
Frohlich is online now  
post #12979 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 07:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,048
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd G. View Post
Seeing them side by side a couple months ago, I didn't think the differences were appreciable enough to warrant $10K more for the NX9 (RS3000). In paused comparisons, 8K e-shift added very slight edge detail improvements. Additionally, color depth and fine detail resolution were a little better in high-res capture 4K content. But as I was watching this programming straight through without pausing, it was a bit tougher to detect these differences.
I said the same thing about the Sony 760 v the 870. The 870 has an obviously superior lens, but in normal conditions and situations the difference was simply not worth an extra 10k.
Unless you didn't care about the extra cost and simply wanted the best of course. No competition in that case.

Those are the people these step up models are aimed at I think. Enthusiasts you don't want anything but the best on offer and will pay what it takes to get it.
Todd G. likes this.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
Archibald1 is offline  
post #12980 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 07:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,048
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1857 Post(s)
Liked: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
For those that are on the fence between the 4500 and the RS3000, JVC has just made the decision harder. JVC is bringing new firmware for the 4500, adding the auto tone mapping and the two Panasonic color profiles. Also adding around 30 new screen codes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Thats actually pretty cool. I'm probably on the wrong side of the fence for the RS4500 (the poor side ) but it still seems to be the benchmark.
Sitting on the fence between the NX9 and the Z1?

Who has enough Wonga for a Z1 and is doing that?

One is 18k-ish and the other is 35k-ish.
Unless you are super spendthrift and can't stand being stiffed on ultimate value, then just get the Z1! It IS the better machine I believe.

I would argue, for the minimal differences that exist in the real world to the image on screen, those that are seeking best value would go for the NX9 anyway (95% of the performance for circa 50% of the price) and not be on the fence any more than those with the means who simply want the best.

Same argument for the Sony 760 v the 870.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
Archibald1 is offline  
post #12981 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 07:53 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I said the same thing about the Sony 760 v the 870. The 870 has an obviously superior lens, but in normal conditions and situations the difference was simply not worth an extra 10k.
The JVC lenses are already very good by default, incredibly good really, better than most DLP lenses. It's not ALWAYS the lenses on the DLP's that sometimes make them sharper, it's the way the DMD works with the pixel fill and the lack of convergence with a single chip. The sharpness issue (if you want to even call it that) is also partly related to the white flaring on a JVC. Even if on a text pattern you do not see the white flaring like you do on credits, it's still there causing a very slight loss in sharpness. DLP's don't generally have the flaring issue nor convergence, some have CA.

Compared to projectors 10 years ago, these JVC's are all incredibly sharp (remember how the RS-1 looked, or worse an Epson 6500ub - average sample), then you know the improvements on sharpness are diminishing compared to past years. Put even a vanilla JVC lens on most sub-$5000 DLP's, and it would be better than the same DLP with its own lens, but they aren't going to be compatible anyhow as the lens specs are different, but in theory anyhow.

However, as far as the RS-4500 vs. JVC 3000, I'll believe it when I see it. I don't trust comparisons for these models because the RS-3000 have more sample variance and are more prone to variance. This is always the case with super high-end models like the RS-4500 generally having much less sample variance, the cost is so high JVC knows they need to make sure every sample is darn near a golden sample.

So yes, for sample variance, going by past data, the RS-4500 will likely be better and more refined, but the RS-3000 just has a lot more native contrast and the same lens, so I question how people even compared these two projectors, or whether the RS-3000 sample they had lived up to the same quality of the RS-4500 they had.
Archibald1 likes this.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #12982 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 08:00 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,546
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11817 Post(s)
Liked: 9352
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Sitting on the fence between the NX9 and the Z1?

Who has enough Wonga for a Z1 and is doing that?

One is 18k-ish and the other is 35k-ish.
Unless you are super spendthrift and can't stand being stiffed on ultimate value, then just get the Z1! It IS the better machine I believe.

I would argue, for the minimal differences that exist in the real world to the image on screen, those that are seeking best value would go for the NX9 anyway (95% of the performance for circa 50% of the price) and not be on the fence any more than those with the means who simply want the best.

Same argument for the Sony 760 v the 870.
In the US, 18K and 30K MSRP. 4500 MSRP was lower 5k.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #12983 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 08:08 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jeahrens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 3,736
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1809 Post(s)
Liked: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
So yes, for sample variance, going by past data, the RS-4500 will likely be better and more refined, but the RS-3000 just has a lot more native contrast and the same lens, so I question how people even compared these two projectors, or whether the RS-3000 sample they had lived up to the same quality of the RS-4500 they had.
I think the curve ball here you're missing is that the laser dimming is more than making up for the native contrast difference when people compare the two.
Manni01 likes this.

jeahrens is offline  
post #12984 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 08:14 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
I think the curve ball here you're missing is that the laser dimming is more than making up for the native contrast difference when people compare the two.
Perceptibly in fade to blacks, I believe it, contrast matching in mixed scenes, I'd have to see it to believe it. I'm not taking a side one way or another, I'm simply noting that everyone who buys the highest priced model is going to go into the comparison believing their model is better, it's human nature to have confirmaton bias. I'm not faulting anyone or pointing fingers, I'm literally saying it's almost impossible for these people to do an unbiased comparison. Not saying they are bias'd, just saying that in speaking in generalities, the bias is often there in this situation, and it's going to be especially true with a JVC. It's going to take an almost 'smoking gun' to make them think that their $30,000 MSRP projector is in anyway inferior to an $18k MSRP projector.

I've even seen it with DLP's, reviewers claiming X DLP is not bad for its price point (when in fact at its price point it was absolutely horrible)...
Archibald1 likes this.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #12985 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 08:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jh901's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PITTSBURGH
Posts: 1,358
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 724 Post(s)
Liked: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
For those that are on the fence between the 4500 and the RS3000, JVC has just made the decision harder. JVC is bringing new firmware for the 4500, adding the auto tone mapping and the two Panasonic color profiles. Also adding around 30 new screen codes.

Those who put up monster coin for the RS4500 back when it was initially released should expect f/w updates (free of charge) and perhaps even hardware upgrades (for a price). This unit continues to be the flagship, so I wonder if they'd have forgotten about it had there been a successor laser projector introduced in the past several months? They sure have forgotten about RS500/600 owners.

HT: Panasonic DP-UB820 | JVC RS600 | 106" x 45" Stewart ST 100 | Cary Audio Cinema 12 | NAD M27 | Elac Uni-Fi UF5, UC5, Debut F5/B6; Focal CMS Sub
STEREO: [Shunyata Denali] Playback Designs MPS-5 (fully upgraded) | Cary Audio SLP-05 tube line level | Cary Audio SA-200.2 ES | Focal Diablo Utopia III DEN: 60" Panasonic VT60
jh901 is offline  
post #12986 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 08:24 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
Industry Insider
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 24,012
Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6401 Post(s)
Liked: 6397
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The NX-7 has the second highest contrast of its set, whereas the RS-640 has the highest contrast of its set like the NX-9.
The NX-7 is the middle model in the release set, just like the RS-540 was in its set. And on and on...
When we, well Chad B tested the 500U VS the 600U, the 500U tested better.......Crazy but its true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgrizzard View Post
Not sure what the obsession is over 640 equals this other new model, blah blah blah. Who cares? The new models are what they, are their price points, and their specs.
True that, the bottom line is unless you want used or B stock there are no new 640U anymore....As I noted I feel the NX7/RS1000 is the X990R/640's replacement.
Cleveland Plasma is offline  
post #12987 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 08:31 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
When we tested the 500U VS the 600U, the 500U tested better.......Crazy but its true.

True that, the bottom line is unless you want used or B stock there are no new 640U anymore....As I noted I feel the NX7/RS1000 is the X990R/640's replacement.
Then the NX-5 has to be the RS-540 replacement, but the NX-5 has no second iris or higher contrast, so that makes zero sense. There are so many reasons the logic doesn't add up. It doesn't share any similarity in the set other than MSRP, if we are basing this on sets (which is what supply chains mostly are based on).

If I set the RS-540 MSRP to the same as the RS-420, is RS-540 the RS-420 or RS-440 replacement, don't think anyone would think of it in those terms except dealers who want to tell their customers it is the same replacement because it's the same MSRP, but it's simply not in all other means.

You cannot replace a projector in the same series with previous year's model by changing the MSRP and re-releasing it as the same model # and releasing it as a 4th unit of the year, do you know how confusing that would make my supply chain queries in a database?

It's essentially a circular reference...

There are some dealers that still have RS-640's, albeit the ones that hold onto older models to sell them at a higher price so when some dealers run out they are the only ones left with the models. The MSRP's bounce around all over the place from year to year, so means nothing in the long-term. It will normalize as we go on and we will see the same patterns as before, maybe the highest NX series will remain at the same price differential, but unlikely and not much different between how other JVC's varied in MSRP. In 1-2 more years, the NX-900 (or whatever it will be called) will not be thought of much different than how the 6xx series was thought of, other than the improved lens.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-20-2019 at 08:39 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #12988 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 08:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
smitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 2,704
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 750 Post(s)
Liked: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgrizzard View Post
Not sure what the obsession is over 640 equals this other new model, blah blah blah. Who cares?
I think the last time it was checked the horse was still breathing a little bit.
Josh Z, coderguy and Todd G. like this.
smitty is offline  
post #12989 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 08:41 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty View Post
I think the last time it was checked the horse was still breathing a little bit.
I think the bloody red horse paste is now ready to mix in with some minced garlic and horseradish sauce...

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #12990 of 14054 Old 06-20-2019, 08:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jeahrens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 3,736
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1809 Post(s)
Liked: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Perceptibly in fade to blacks, I believe it, contrast matching in mixed scenes, I'd have to see it to believe it. I'm not taking a side one way or another, I'm simply noting that everyone who buys the highest priced model is going to go into the comparison believing their model is better, it's human nature to have confirmaton bias. I'm not faulting anyone or pointing fingers, I'm literally saying it's almost impossible for these people to do an unbiased comparison. Not saying they are bias'd, just saying that in speaking in generalities, the bias is often there in this situation, and it's going to be especially true with a JVC. It's going to take an almost 'smoking gun' to make them think that their $30,000 MSRP projector is in anyway inferior to an $18k MSRP projector.

I've even seen it with DLP's, reviewers claiming X DLP is not bad for its price point (when in fact at its price point it was absolutely horrible)...
I've not seen either to compare, just saying this is where those that have claim the RS4500 pulls away. I agree logically in mixed scenes it shouldn't be much of a factor. It could be that where effective laser dimming falls off the ADL is high enough the contrast differences aren't apparent to the eye. But that's pure speculation.

jeahrens is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Jvc , nx7 , nx9 , rs2000 , rs3000

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off