Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 52 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1531 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DennisLJacob View Post
I'm not sure I agree with your statement re: making sure we have a good sample or a lemon. For the money we're paying it would seem to me that JVC shouldn't be shipping lemons - period!

I wouldn't think that regular consumers, which I am, should have to buy Colorimeters to check our NEW projectors. That is regardless how much we are paying for the new projectors. Perhaps if I was anal about video as I am about audio, then I can see that. But I don't think we should assume everyone buying a new JVC projector is going to have these tools, software and products. I don't. I wouldn't know what to do with them.
I think if you got the projector Arrow got, put FW v1.17 on it and just watched it you'd be pretty happy.

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post #1532 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by wombats View Post
So... now we're in a situation where without having our own equipment to verify contrast numbers, there's no way to know if our machines are operating at advertised specs without eyeballing it. Very difficult situation for us typical consumers; especially those of us without well-trained eyes. It makes me wonder how common it is for things like this to happen with other products as well. How often do people buy lemons and just don't know any better? Or even more scary, how many times have I bought lemons and not known any better?
No different with any projector - from any brand. You either measure it or have a pro calibrator measure it or you eyeball it and wing it. Been that way for at least 16 years. How do you know that $5K flat panel 4K TV you bought meets advertised specs ? You would need to measure it. Or just take it on faith and go with it.
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post #1533 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Well, worth mention that your 175:1 ANSI is now very close to Ekki's ANSI of 150:1 which make me believe that your "production unit" could be from the same batch of the "pre production unit" Ekki tested.... Most definitely something is fishy with your unit and I really hope it's defective as I have my eye on a NX7 for the end of the year.
Well defective or a pre-production unit and the production units will be better.

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Therefore, please do NOT consider this to be what is expected to be the typical performance of the JVC RS3000/NX9
OK, so you are saying we have to wait until you get a different unit to run your test again.....?

---Seems to me we need some other owner so they can run some tests too......
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post #1534 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 09:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DennisLJacob View Post
I'm not sure I agree with your statement re: making sure we have a good sample or a lemon. For the money we're paying it would seem to me that JVC shouldn't be shipping lemons - period!

I wouldn't think that regular consumers, which I am, should have to buy Colorimeters to check our NEW projectors. That is regardless how much we are paying for the new projectors. Perhaps if I was anal about video as I am about audio, then I can see that. But I don't think we should assume everyone buying a new JVC projector is going to have these tools, software and products. I don't. I wouldn't know what to do with them.
Dennis, you're not off base with those sentiments. Part of what arrow and others are doing, is providing the info to make a more inforned decision, rather than just taking the word of the manufacture or their associates.

We still have a ways to go on the unit testing and determining unit variations. In the end, atleast you might know what problems to look for in a new or used unit, in addition to info to use to decide what will best wirk for you and your budget..
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post #1535 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
No different with any projector - from any brand. You either measure it or have a pro calibrator measure it or you eyeball it and wing it. Been that way for at least 16 years. How do you know that $5K flat panel 4K TV you bought meets advertised specs ? You would need to measure it. Or just take it on faith and go with it.
What you say is true to a large extent, but there is a bit of a difference between projectors and a flat panel 4k TV, in that flat panel 4k TV's are widely available, both in stores (yes, I know they are often set up badly there) and in other people's homes. So it is much easier to obtain at least some point of reference with a flat panel TV than it is with a projector, especially a higher end projector. I've probably seen more than a 100 other flat panel TV's in, say, the past few years. I've seen a total of two projectors, and one of them is mine.
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post #1536 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 09:56 PM
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A request please...

Could an "N7/NX7" owner do a Contrast measurement ........ Native, 1% , 5% , 10% , AND 20%

Thanks...
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post #1537 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post
What you say is true to a large extent, but there is a bit of a difference between projectors and a flat panel 4k TV, in that flat panel 4k TV's are widely available, both in stores (yes, I know they are often set up badly there) and in other people's homes. So it is much easier to obtain at least some point of reference with a flat panel TV than it is with a projector, especially a higher end projector. I've probably seen more than a 100 other flat panel TV's in, say, the past few years. I've seen a total of two projectors, and one of them is mine.
Get your projector calibrated and you'll know that not only is it close to spec., it will be dialed in as close to perfect as possible.
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post #1538 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post
This was a very helpful discussion. I am on the pre-order list for the NX7 and was hoping to avoid having to upgrade my receiver for awhile (which is pre-4k). And I just purchased the 820. So I'm going to try the two HDMI inputs on the 820 and see how it works.

So your question and the answer helped my plan my setup also.
This was one of the reasons I bought a Panasonic UB820 too. I didn't want to have to upgrade my receiver either at this time. Can't wait to finally be able to watch some 4K HDR movies when my RS2000 comes in!
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post #1539 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Get your projector calibrated and you'll know that not only is it close to spec., it will be dialed in as close to perfect as possible.
Sure, but that doesn't fully resolve the issue posed by Dennis. His "complaint" was that a "regular" consumer who buys a projector should not have to purchase a colorimeter to make sure the product is up to spec. It's not really a complete answer to his issue to say that one should instead hire a pro calibrator at $400 or more.

Now it is true that the type of projectors we are talking about are somewhat of a niche, higher end product, and so I think one could reasonably argue that one cannot expect it to be just plug and play. But at the same time, I think there is also merit to the issue Dennis is raising, especially as projectors become more widely available and are used today by many more "average" consumers than, say, ten years ago.
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post #1540 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DennisLJacob View Post
Man 'o Man am I in trouble. I'm reading all of these posts regarding settings on the Panny UB820 and output with this setting or that setting to input to the projector for this variable or that. How is a regular Joe (me) going to figure this stuff out????? I'm going to be up a creek without a paddle for sure.
You can either have the UB820 perform the tone mapping or have the new JVC do it.

To use the JVC tone mapping, you set the UB820 to output HDR in the settings menu. When playing a HDR disc, you press the Option button on the remote that brings up a menu where you can turn Off the HDR Optimizer if it is turned On. It then remains turned Off. If you have the Optimizer turned On, both the UB820 and the JVC will perform tone mapping; not recommended with projectors.

To use the UB820 tone mapping, you set the UB820 to output SDR/BT2020 in the settings menu instead of HDR. When playing a HDR disc, you press the Option button on the remote to turn On the Optimizer if it is Off. On the same HDR Optimizer menu, there is a Dynamic Range Conversion Adjustment slider control; move it to the right for a brighter picture, to the left to get more contrast.

It shouldn't take long for owners of the UB820 to compare its HDR Optimizer tone mapping to the JVC auto tone mapping and recommend which is the better option.

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post #1541 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post
Sure, but that doesn't fully resolve the issue posed by Dennis. His "complaint" was that a "regular" consumer who buys a projector should not have to purchase a colorimeter to make sure the product is up to spec. It's not really a complete answer to his issue to say that one should instead hire a pro calibrator at $400 or more.

Now it is true that the type of projectors we are talking about are somewhat of a niche, higher end product, and so I think one could reasonably argue that one cannot expect it to be just plug and play. But at the same time, I think there is also merit to the issue Dennis is raising, especially as projectors become more widely available and are used today by many more "average" consumers than, say, ten years ago.
How do you know that about any complicated product, unless you measure or test. You would be shocked at how crappy many TV's measure and yet most don't know about the issues.
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post #1542 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DennisLJacob View Post
Man 'o Man am I in trouble. I'm reading all of these posts regarding settings on the Panny UB820 and output with this setting or that setting to input to the projector for this variable or that. How is a regular Joe (me) going to figure this stuff out????? I'm going to be up a creek without a paddle for sure.
I was thinking the same thing. I'm new to the whole 4K HDR world. I already have my UB820 but I'm very confused as to what settings will be the best when I'm watching standard Blu-ray movies and 4K HDR Blu-ray movies. Not sure if I have to change things on the UB820, the RS2000 or both.

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post #1543 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
a request please...



Could an "n7/nx7" owner do a contrast measurement ........ Native, 1% , 5% , 10% , and 20%



thanks...


yesssssssssssssssss.
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post #1544 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post
Sure, but that doesn't fully resolve the issue posed by Dennis. His "complaint" was that a "regular" consumer who buys a projector should not have to purchase a colorimeter to make sure the product is up to spec. It's not really a complete answer to his issue to say that one should instead hire a pro calibrator at $400 or more.

Now it is true that the type of projectors we are talking about are somewhat of a niche, higher end product, and so I think one could reasonably argue that one cannot expect it to be just plug and play. But at the same time, I think there is also merit to the issue Dennis is raising, especially as projectors become more widely available and are used today by many more "average" consumers than, say, ten years ago.
A "regular" consumer will buy the projector, fire it up, and if they like the way that it looks they'll probably not even so much as tweak the settings. No one "has to purchase" a colorimeter or hire a calibrator. I've never done either.

Arrow has also stated several times that his NX9 "looks very sharp". I bet anyone that bought it and just used it would have been plenty stoked and not complaining - well short of the issues on v1.16 firmware.
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post #1545 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post
I was thinking the same thing. I'm new to the whole 4K HDR world. I already have my UB820 but I'm very confused as to what settings will be the best when I'm watching standard Blu-ray movies and 4K HDR Blu-ray movies. Not sure if I have to change things on the UB820, the RS2000 or both.
right now a handful of folks are discussing deep dive topics. once these are in more hands, you will see plenty of getting started guides as was done with previous years models.
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post #1546 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:36 PM
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How do you know that about any complicated product, unless you measure or test. You would be shocked at how crappy many TV's measure and yet most don't know about the issues.
Well that is certainly true, but I guess I'm not really talking about the "average" consumer, even though I've used that term above. I mean, I'm not talking about my mom or my sister, because they are not going to buy a projector. I'm probably more talking about the "average" audio/video enthusiast or "average" person on audio/video forums. The people who are willing to invest in and set up a projector in any type of decent home theater are probably more technically capable and have a greater degree of knowledge than the average joe.

The point, though, is that the level of knowledge and skill to determine whether a projector is up to spec seems to me (and I suspect to Dennis, who made the point initially) to be much greater than that required for a regular audio/video enthusiast to determine if a TV is up to spec. To put it another way, I don't consider myself an "average" consumer. I think I have above average knowledge of audio and video and I can determine whether a TV looks right, and it is relatively easy for me to tweak basic settings to get the picture I want, check the grayscale, see that it doesn't have issues like macroblocking, etc. On the other hand, I see you and other guys on this forum as sort of "super heroes" of audio and video with something akin to X-ray vision -- aided, of course, by your instruments. In other words, the level of knowledge that you guys bring to the determination of whether a projector is good, or operating like it should, seems pretty extreme.

So perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree with this clarification -- I think it is measurably (no pun intended) easier for an average enthusiast to determine if a TV is "good" then for that same person to determine if one of these projectors is "good." And it is easier for the enthusiast to get a decent picture out of a flat panel TV, especially with HDR, than it is for the same person with a projector. (I mean, nobody is loading "custom curves" into their OLED.)
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post #1547 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 10:41 PM
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right now a handful of folks are discussing deep dive topics. once these are in more hands, you will see plenty of getting started guides as was done with previous years models.
I did notice that on the owner's thread for the RS540, 640, etc. there is a lot of basic and useful information on the first page. It will be nice when we all have our projectors and something like that is available on this thread. That will help a lot of us muggles.
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post #1548 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DennisLJacob View Post
Man 'o Man am I in trouble. I'm reading all of these posts regarding settings on the Panny UB820 and output with this setting or that setting to input to the projector for this variable or that. How is a regular Joe (me) going to figure this stuff out????? I'm going to be up a creek without a paddle for sure.
You're not in trouble, either choose the UB820 to do the tone mapping or the JVC.
Tests will be carried as to which is best, so stay tuned.

You want the video to look like the bottom picture, not the top.
The top one has the "bright's" so blown out, you can't even see the clouds.
The auto tone mapping fixes things like this, which works best remains to be seen.
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post #1549 of 14124 Old 01-12-2019, 11:27 PM
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Out of the box the NX7 has only one picture mode available for HDR (labelled HDR10) but there are two colour profiles for HDR (labelled HDR - without filter and BT2020 - with filter). As delivered the HDR10 picture mode uses the HDR colour profile.

You can change the HDR10 Picture mode to use the BT2020 colour profile if you like (easily done) or setup up a user Picture mode to use BT2020 like I did (a bit more work but not hard). Either method works and this picture mode then has the colour filter engaged for the most accurate HDR presentation.

"Natural' is the most accurate preset SDR picture mode. It uses a 2.2 gamma (easily changed to 2.4 if you prefer) and the BT709 colour profile. There is no THX mode any longer.

These settings are listed in the online JVC manuals with a description of the visual effect but there is no information on whether the colour filter is used. Its worth getting familiar with the tables describing these choices because they have changed a bit from the RS500/X750.
excellent thank you Bruce, very much appreciate talking through the options out of box and whats possible indeed the manual is a bit cryptic in this fashion so appreciate the heads up

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post #1550 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 12:01 AM
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Look at the sequence how he wanted to connect.



BD player to projector to AVR.



Impossible to do that. That requires HDMI out on the projector.

Nope. It would require a second HDMI INPUT on the projector with ARC capability. Starting with HDMI 1.4 an HDMI INPUT on a display device can send audio back to the AVR. Audio can travel both ways, upstream and downstream. That’s why it’s called ARC. It’s an audio return channel. Using a single HDMI cable you can send audio and video in one direction and audio in the opposite direction.

This is how flat panel TVs send audio from the TV tuner or internal streaming apps back to a receiver or sound bar. The receiver can send audio and video to the TV HDMI input, say from a Blu-ray player. But using the same ARC-enabled input the TV can send audio the opposite way to the receiver. Look at the back of your receiver and you’ll see that one of the HDMI outputs is labeled ARC. Look at the HDMI INPUTS of any modern smart TV and you’ll see an INPUT labeled ARC. That input can accept video and audio, but it can also send audio back the other way. This simplifies things greatly. And with eARC full lossless audio can be sent from the display device to the Receiver or sound bar.


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post #1551 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 12:16 AM
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Nope. It would require a second HDMI INPUT on the projector with ARC capability. Starting with HDMI 1.4 an HDMI INPUT on a display device can send audio back to the AVR. Audio can travel both ways, upstream and downstream. That’s why it’s called ARC. It’s an audio return channel. Using a single HDMI cable you can send audio and video in one direction and audio in the opposite direction.

This is how flat panel TVs send audio from the TV tuner or internal streaming apps back to a receiver or sound bar. The receiver can send audio and video to the TV HDMI input, say from a Blu-ray player. But using the same ARC-enabled input the TV can send audio the opposite way to the receiver. Look at the back of your receiver and you’ll see that one of the HDMI outputs is labeled ARC. Look at the HDMI INPUTS of any modern smart TV and you’ll see an INPUT labeled ARC. That input can accept video and audio, but it can also send audio back the other way. This simplifies things greatly. And with eARC full lossless audio can be sent from the display device to the Receiver or sound bar.


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projectors neither have a TV tuner or streaming apps so it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense for a projector like the JVC to have ARC. I think most makers like jvc are expecting if you are spending the kind of money you are on a projector you are likely in the last decade with rest of your equipment wiht some hdmi capability.

IF you have an AVR with no HDMI Capability it is The no 1 reason player makers provide dual hdmi and also analog outputs. that said both will creat the possibility of audio and picture to be out of synch given both are processed separately. not a problem where you have audio and video both processed together and are kept in sync with each other.

arc is anyways an abomination released. I have not myself found one instance of it working properly in times when I have helped family to get going. SO many more easier simpler ways to get audio video happening

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post #1552 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 12:46 AM
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I think if you got the projector Arrow got, put FW v1.17 on it and just watched it you'd be pretty happy.
I thought Arrow is posting that theses still something wrong with the unit he has though?
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post #1553 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crash1977 View Post
According to the serial number decode mine is also October but a very very low October number .. like 153400xx (and XX is low )

I haven’t had a chance to hook it up yet but very curious to know how to properly test for the issues Arrow has experienced.

My unit did have a letter from JVC indicating the unit was opened and inspected prior to delivery.

I will only be hooking it up next Friday so I am hoping we’ll have a lot more information by then.



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I cant understand that Your body allows you to wait that long.
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post #1554 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 01:29 AM
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@Dj Dee
Is it correct that your unit does not display the amount of clouding/blooming that is visible in Arrow's pictures?

I'm not sure if I would find the performance of Arrow's unit acceptable for the given price point.
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post #1555 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
This is fascinating, why would soft/firmware affect if the panels are off or on, ie blocking as much light or reflecting as much light possible.

Any theories?
With all the processing likely involved in all of this i don't find this strange at all. But that does not mean there are other possibilities.

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post #1556 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by AidenL View Post
I thought Arrow is posting that theses still something wrong with the unit he has though?

There are some reflections /ghosting haloing going on in the lens, might be the e-shift glass. Have anyone measured or seen this patterns on N7?
I have tried to illustrate this with this pictures.
This is not visible form stinting area but, for shore will give poor measurement in the intra-sene contrast 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%, 20% because of reflections from white in the black measurements area.


Here you see a picture of mine NX9, remember this is only visible when I stand in front of the screen, maybe barley visible if I really want to see it from sitting sweet spot around 2.6 meters from screen. Also picture taken after around 1 minute after powered on so I have some convergence. Just to clarify that to hehe.
The zoomed in picture are with high exposure time to show what we talk about here. I guess you all will understand that measuring contrast in this type patterns will come out poor. Also ansi contrast you will get the ghost halo in the black measurement area. So my ansicontrast 249/250:1 is quit remarkable considering this.



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post #1557 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by J.P View Post
With all the processing likely involved in all of this i don't find this strange at all. But that does not mean there are other possibilities.
A full white field and a full black field. There should be absolutely no electronic/processing alteration of the individual levels. If there is, then something is amiss. Be a neat trick tho!

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post #1558 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 01:48 AM
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Arrows NX9 look horrific compared to mine if I take the pictures in the loop. Might be different in the same room side by side.
That also adds up concerning the difference in measurements.


But remember that you in no way see this kind of stuff in a movie. I might see some in the roller text at the end of the film but normal JVC like as privies versions just horizontal not vertical. .
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post #1559 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
There are some reflections /ghosting haloing going on in the lens, might be the e-shift glass. fter around 1 minute after powered on so I have some convergence. Just to clarify that to hehe.
The zoomed in picture are with high exposure time to show what we talk about here. I guess you all will understand that measuring contrast in this type patterns will come out poor. Also ansi contrast you will get the ghost halo in the black measurement.
@Dj Dee your unit is better, BUT it still shows excessive "Blooming" "Haloing"

Cant wait to see the same pattern on an NX7....
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Last edited by woofer; 01-13-2019 at 01:55 AM.
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post #1560 of 14124 Old 01-13-2019, 01:56 AM
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@Dj Dee
Thanks for sharing those pictures and your impressions.


By the way: I still find your 'fade to black device' really fascinating.
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