Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 57 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1681 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post
To bad that he doesn't come to the Pacific NW.
Ah, he has, he just need 5 or more calibrations and he will go to most locations......

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post #1682 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 03:27 PM
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How is the 3D on these new projectors concerning ghosting?
And what about the posterization bug that is visible on all older JVC models occasionally when displaying a homogenous
patch in fast motion (such as human skin)? Is it gone now?
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post #1683 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I disagree with Nigel.

The idea of using more than 1 square is to measure variations at different areas of the panels, while the overall picture goes through the same part of the lens (the screen is irrelevant as you measure off the lens). If you use lens shift without moving the meter, you are measuring the same area of the panel, going through a different part of the lens, so there is no point in doing that.

Plus the e-shift setting influences ANSI contrast. So if you change the e-shift setting during the measurements, you are actually changing some important parameters between the two sets of data, that makes the measurements not comparable, without adding any valuable datapoints that would make the measurements more accurate, because you're measuring the same part of the panel.

If you want to do it faster, just measure two squares instead of four.

If you want accuracy, as long as you use the patterns with a crosshair target to position the meter so that it reads exactly the center of each square (the cross should fall exactly at the centre of the meter's lens) and use inverted ANSI patterns so that you don't move the meter at all when reading ON/OFF for each square, you should be fine. Just try to keep the meter at the same distance from the PJ lens as you move it laterally to measure the second column. As you will be using an adjustable tripod, you only have to move it once really (left/right). Each column can be measured from the same position, only adjusting the height of the tripod, and the meter position doesn't change when measuring each square, thanks to the inverted ANSI patterns. As the four squares are at the centre of the screen, the distance with the lens doesn't change much.

That's actually one of the reasons why I prefer the Greg Rogers Modified method. You get an on/off contrast for each square, so you can see if there is a variation on different parts of the panel. Then you average to get the overall ANSI contrast (GR modified).
Sorry, but I disagree

Firstly, just to be clear, maybe it’s because I’m old-school but I am a ‘do it properly or not at all’ kind of guy, so I am not a fan of cutting corners when it comes to measuring ANSI, because if/when you do, well, it’s going to be an approximation and hence not 100% accurate. So my own preference is to measure the ANSI properly or not at all.

Secondly, if you are going to measure only the central 4 rectangles then this is an approximation and since we are talking about an approximation, then yes, it’s OK to use the lens shift, because you are taking the first of the 4 number measurements accurately and then the next three using the lens shift, wherein the panel contrast does not change a huge amount at the centre, HOWEVER you are in fact most certainly measuring differing portions of the panel, meaning that your result will not be significantly different as compared with physically moving the meter. Wherein, because I am not the sort of person to offer subjective opinion without objective substantiation, I did in fact measure the two different methods, and by using the lens shift the result is 177:1, by physically moving the meter the result is 172:1, and the proper ANSI contrast measurement is 175:1

However, like I said, personally I would not choose to do either of these shortcuts, but to measure the ANSI properly, as this is the only way to ensure complete accuracy

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post #1684 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
That can't possibly be correct. By using lens shift you are still measuring a different part of the panel. Think about it.

A 4k panel with 16 squares filling the panel. If you take a measurement in all 16 squares you are still measuring a 1/16th area of the panel and all 16 are in unique locations. All lens shift does is move the image using the lens. So the measurement will be going through the same area of the lens but a different portion of the panel.

If you move the meter, you are measuring 16 unique panel areas and 16 unique lens areas because the light to each square goes through a different part of the lens.
Precisely

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post #1685 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Sorry, but I disagree

Firstly, just to be clear, maybe it’s because I’m old-school but I am a ‘do it properly or not at all’ kind of guy, so I am not a fan of cutting corners when it comes to measuring ANSI, because if/when you do, well, it’s going to be an approximation and hence not 100% accurate. So my own preference is to measure the ANSI properly or not at all.

Secondly, if you are going to measure only the central 4 rectangles then this is an approximation and since we are talking about an approximation, then yes, it’s OK to use the lens shift, because you are taking the first of the 4 number measurements accurately and then the next three using the lens shift, wherein the panel contrast does not change a huge amount at the centre, HOWEVER you are in fact most certainly measuring differing portions of the panel, meaning that your result will not be significantly different as compared with physically moving the meter. Wherein, because I am not the sort of person to offer subjective opinion without objective substantiation, I did in fact measure the two different methods, and by using the lens shift the result is 177:1, by physically moving the meter the result is 172:1, and the proper ANSI contrast measurement is 175:1

However, like I said, personally I would not choose to do either of these shortcuts, but to measure the ANSI properly, as this is the only way to ensure complete accuracy

I had deleted my post before your replied to it
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post #1686 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 03:57 PM
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Yes how is the 3d..

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post #1687 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
As much as I love the blood and guts deep dive, I find these comments almost as interesting, though it is always hard to know the context.
In the case of the X750, did you have the gamma droop fixed via calibration, and do you target a specific light level?

I've often wondered if the most instant "hit" folk get with a new JVC is the gamma being in a much better state out of the box than the unit they're replacing, along with the lamp just being much brighter. I guess there are many more tangible differences now the units have been wholesale replaced; I think this was particularly so on the previous series units where really quite little would change between model years.
I had a new RS640 in my room along with my RS4500. Everybody that saw both easily picked the 4500 as the better projector and they were brightness matched.
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post #1688 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Nice summary Nigel, but the above point is the most interesting takeaway. So this thick/thin line issue is entirely removed by putting the projector in low latency/gaming mode?

That would suggest the issue on the QBF pattern is almost entirely down to processing?
Yes, we pretty much already knew that, because a firmware update improving the QBF image could only improve the processing. Low lag offering farther improvement is nice to hear, since that is how I will run mine.
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post #1689 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Bruce since you are one of the very few that have an NX7, is it possible to check one of the patterns supplied by DJ to see if e-shift on the NX9 is adding any booming or not please? This would at least put alot of minds at rest.... https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57430222
Bruce's unit having less blooming, would not tell you that it is the E-shift unit causing the blooming.

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post #1690 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post
This is my 2nd JVC as I currently own a RS4810 that I love and I've owned many other projectors over the years from Sharp, Sony, Toshiba, Yamaha, Mitsubishi and JVC. It's just the first time I've ventured into the 4K HDR world so it seems confusing as to what you have to do each time you are watching a regular BR movie or a 4K HDR BR movie. I may be wrong but it seems like you have to always be changing something in the menu. I'm so used to just turning the items on and putting in a disc to enjoy.
Not if the projector is capable of doing good auto tone mapping. Set it up once as in use DCI P3 filter or not and then it will be automatic.
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post #1691 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
I did try some of these patterns last night and can only describe what I saw visually. Trying to photograph them was really difficult and just didn't reflect what my eyes were seeing.

It makes me appreciate the effort that Arrow AV and DJ are putting into this.

ANSI Contrast patterns:

There is some horizontal streaking on the NX7. It's far less visible than the vertical streaking on my X750 and the X35 I had before that. I haven't been able to detect this on end credits for movies but it is visible on the test patterns if viewed close to the screen. None of this is visible on normal content from the main viewing location though.

At absolute peak brightness (high lamp, iris at 0, lens setup for 16:9) I get around 200 nits. At this brightness there is some haloing clearly visible around bright objects that resembles an FALD LED. It doesn't extend across the screen like a reflection would though. Speaking in photographic terms it looks more like dispersion or light scattering in the lens elements than a reflection. Using more ULD glass or improved coatings might be able to reduce this but the the zoom lens on the NX7 is already incredibly complex and expensive and the NX9 even more so.

I should also mention that even my LG 65E7 OLED shows some haloing on these pattens! The light reflects back from the inside of the ALR filter on the front of the screen and blooms into the neighbouring pixels though this set has infinite contrast!

I can't see that strange ghost image that appeared in one sample of the center ANSI test pattern at all. This is the one thing that I think could be from the eshift element in its parked position.

QBF pattern:

I just checked and I've been running in low latency mode the whole time. This is the default for most of the picture modes as delivered by JVC. The QBF pattern still doesn't look perfect but I think it might be limitations in my source device. The letters and bars in red and blue don't look as clean as they should on my aging iMac computer, the LG OLED, or the NX7. Only my iPad with a retina screen is resolving this pattern correctly.

Hope that helps but really we need the professional calibrators to get their hands on the NX7 because they've got the equipment and expertise that I don't have. I will say it's important to keep everything in perspective. We're all enthusiasts here and perhaps even perfectionists. For its intended purpose of enjoying yourself in your home theatre, the NX7 is sublime.
bruce, very much appreciate all your posts with regards the n7..... finally we have greater insights and it is a yeti no more. interesting re latency modes as being standard default settings by jvc on the picture modes. is there any impacts of turning off the latency mode I wonder. any ill effects of using it ? vs not using ? just curious thats all. its not a biggie and doesn't bother much but more curious that they have had it on as default and wondering what happens if turn it off

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post #1692 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yes, we pretty much already knew that, because a firmware update improving the QBF image could only improve the processing. Low lag offering farther improvement is nice to hear, since that is how I will run mine.
In the past, what else has low latency mode defeated on the projector? Any negatives to running it? I was planning on running low latency at all times, it has helped prevent sound sync issues on my madvr setup in the past.
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post #1693 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I had a new RS640 in my room along with my RS4500. Everybody that saw both easily picked the 4500 as the better projector and they were brightness matched.
I would hope so Mike!
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post #1694 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post
I see all of the various JVC models that are older and it would be nice to see a list of all of these older models and the year they came out. I think I bought my RS4810 in 2013 but I have no timeline for most of these models.
You mean like this -

JVC Native 4K Projectors
NX9 / RS3000 Cedia 2018
NX7 / RS2000
NX5 / RS1000
DLA-X790R / RS540 - continued ( RS440 & 640 discontinued )

JVC Consumer vs Professional line
DLA-X990R / RS640 Cedia 2017
DLA-X790R / RS540
DLA-X590R / RS440

Cedia 2016 - first ship Jan / Feb 2017
RS4500

DLA-X970R / RS620 JVC Projectors Jan ( CES ) 2017
DLA-X770R / RS520
DLA-X570R / RS420

JVC Projectors Cedia 2015 – end of 2016
DLA-X950R / RS600
DLA-X750R / RS500
DLA-X550R / RS400

The new JVC D-ILA home theater projectors – Cedia 2013 – Cedia 2015
DLA-X900R/RS67/RS6710
DLA-X700R/RS57
DLA-X500R/RS49/RS4910

DLA-X95R/DLA-RS66 Cedia 2012 - 2013
DLA-X75R/DLA-RS56
DLA-X55R/DLA-RS48 / RS4810
DLA-X35/DLA-RS46

X70R = RS55 Cedia 2011
X30 = RS45

X9 = RS60 Cedia 2010
X7 = RS50
X3 = RS40


HD990 = RS35 Cedia 2009 - 2010
HD950 = RS25
HD550 = RS15

HD750 = RS20 Cedia 2008 - 2009
HD350 = RS10
HD100 = RS2X Dec. 2007

HD1= RS1U March 2007
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post #1695 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DennisLJacob View Post
Arrow, firstly thank you for doing all this work. I've done similar with audio in the past and know it is tough work. It's not fun and it is tedious detailed work.

I also understand that we are looking at the details in order to set a base set of data. Though the projector might be really good, the base set of details are needed to compare to other products either from JVC or Sony or someone else.

My main concern with the nx9 is the lens, 8k eshift and contrast and lumens.

My concern about the lens is this: is it as good as the RS4500? Is it truly the same lens? Are there elements installed in the nx9 lens that is not in the RS4500?

My concern about the 8k eshift is it a determent to the system? Does it affect the lens in any way? Even turned off, does it affect the image?

Contrast - well it either meets the specs JVC has given or it doesn't. Does it beat the other new JVC 4k units? Does it have any other flaws or issues with different settings? If so are they correctable with firmware? Does it beat the Sony projectors as what we have been discussing for the last 3 months while waiting for JVC to produce and deliver these projectors.

Lumens - does it produce the JVC specifications? We really haven't gotten around to this item I don't think.

I'm a newbie with JVC and this level of projector. So I'm relying on Arrow and other forum folks to give the straight truth. Either these projectors meet the anticipated performance or they don't.

Regarding having the projectors calibrated and "fixed" if anything is wrong. Well that is a real issue for me. After buying and paying for a new projector - I don't want to find out that it is a lemon. I will already own it. I'd much rather know that the projector is a perfect as it is supposed to be before paying for it. It's like buying a new car. As soon as you own it, it becomes worth 30% below the cost. My view with these projectors are the same. If these projectors get a bad rap, that will stick with them. In the anticipation thread, there were many folks who said they'd cancel their orders if these projectors didn't measure up to the pre delivery hype. If that is true then dealers are fine with taking them back if we don't like them. Though I don't know if any of the dealers are actually willing to do that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, Arrow and the others who are spending a ton of time and effort in testing and reporting on these projectors - Thank You. I learn more with each new page of postings.
JVC says it is the same lens as the 4500 with slight improvements. The groupings and number of elements are the same and the size is the same. And if you think about it, it would be more expensive for JVC to design and manufacturer an all new lens that is the same size, same elements and the same groupings. You would lose your economy of scale.

From what we have seen, meeting native contrast spec is a non issue and what brightness readings I have seen, also non issue, so meeting spec is going to be a non issue. From what we have seen, everyone of these new projectors may have been in spec. Hard to say on Arrow's because I do not know how bad the blooming actually is, since we are seeing an image blown up and shot with a less than optimal camera. None of the items pointed out show up, when watching actual content and is that not what we buy them for? If you want to take test patterns and go look for issues, you will find them, on any projector, but then go back and check, looking at actual content from your viewing distance.

I think many people are not understanding what a deep dive is. It is to show any and every flaw and all projectors have flaws. Wait until you get your projector and take a look at the image it throws. I think you will be very pleased.

There is nothing about calibrating and fixed? Calibrated just puts the projector to project the most accurate image it can and that applies to any Projector.

From what I have seen very few people are canceling orders. In fact the backlog is growing, not shrinking.
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post #1696 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:46 PM
 
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I would hope so Mike!
Yeah, right? How about the nx9?
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post #1697 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
In the past, what else has low latency mode defeated on the projector? Any negatives to running it? I was planning on running low latency at all times, it has helped prevent sound sync issues on my madvr setup in the past.
It reduced sync time. If I recall, you can't use MPC with low lag?
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post #1698 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
You mean like this -

JVC Native 4K Projectors
NX9 / RS3000 Cedia 2018
NX7 / RS2000
NX5 / RS1000
DLA-X790R / RS540 - continued ( RS440 & 640 discontinued )

JVC Consumer vs Professional line
DLA-X990R / RS640 Cedia 2017
DLA-X790R / RS540
DLA-X590R / RS440

Cedia 2016 - first ship Jan / Feb 2017
RS4500

DLA-X970R / RS620 JVC Projectors Jan ( CES ) 2017
DLA-X770R / RS520
DLA-X570R / RS420

JVC Projectors Cedia 2015 – end of 2016
DLA-X950R / RS600
DLA-X750R / RS500
DLA-X550R / RS400

The new JVC D-ILA home theater projectors – Cedia 2013 – Cedia 2015
DLA-X900R/RS67/RS6710
DLA-X700R/RS57
DLA-X500R/RS49/RS4910

DLA-X95R/DLA-RS66 Cedia 2012 - 2013
DLA-X75R/DLA-RS56
DLA-X55R/DLA-RS48 / RS4810
DLA-X35/DLA-RS46

X70R = RS55 Cedia 2011
X30 = RS45

X9 = RS60 Cedia 2010
X7 = RS50
X3 = RS40


HD990 = RS35 Cedia 2009 - 2010
HD950 = RS25
HD550 = RS15

HD750 = RS20 Cedia 2008 - 2009
HD350 = RS10
HD100 = RS2X Dec. 2007

HD1= RS1U March 2007
Perfect! Thank a lot. I had no idea when some of these models were produced.

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post #1699 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:55 PM
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Is there ANYBODY that can take input lag measurements in the various modes?
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post #1700 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
bruce, very much appreciate all your posts with regards the n7..... finally we have greater insights and it is a yeti no more. interesting re latency modes as being standard default settings by jvc on the picture modes. is there any impacts of turning off the latency mode I wonder. any ill effects of using it ? vs not using ? just curious thats all. its not a biggie and doesn't bother much but more curious that they have had it on as default and wondering what happens if turn it off
I think JVC did the right thing here. Make the signal path as direct as possible by default. As near as I can make out low latency mode only needs to be turned off if you want to use CMD. By definition, CMD must buffer some frames in order to do frame interpolation.

I don't see any other features that are disabled in low latency mode. All MPC controls are still available though I find setting everything to 0 is the best setting anyway. The image is so sharp and pristine that I don't feel the need for any enhancement whatsoever. Maybe some old DVD's or something would need some smoothing and noise reduction but I just haven't gotten around to trying them yet. Same for 3D blu-rays - just not enough time to get to everything in the first few days.

I think this thread is going to go crazy once significant numbers of these projectors make it to all parts of the world.
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post #1701 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:56 PM
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It reduced sync time. If I recall, you can't use MPC with low lag?
Yeah that would make sense. My first jvc and I know they just added low latency recently so wasn't sure if there were any major drawbacks to it.

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post #1702 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
I originally decided to upgrade from the X750 to the NX7 for the 4K HDR benefits alone. This was due to the major headline changes of native 4K resolution and the auto tone mapping for HDR. I used custom curves on the X750 (3 curves for Dolby Cinema emulation) but felt that this could be better. Because the Apple TV 4K is my primary source the Panasonic 820 doesn't help me.

I assumed that the best I could do for 1080P SDR on the NX7 was to equal the X750 and I actually expected the NX7 to lag behind a bit because of the lower rated on/off contrast.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The NX7 improves on the X750 in every way and the difference is clearly visible in everyday viewing. I'm not talking about pixel peeping at close distances but actually using it like a normal customer would. The new chassis must contain a lot of internal improvements over the previous lineup. Some of these may be small, subtle improvements but they all add up and the end result makes for amazing viewing.

Basically the image looks like a giant 110 inch 21:9 OLED all the time. I haven't seen a single flaw to mar the picture when viewing from 2X screen height which is really close. Nothing distracts you from the viewing experience.

1. The image is calm, crisp, and incredibly detailed.
2. No lamp flicker or video noise.
3. There is no streaking or ghosting visible on real world content from a normal viewing distance. Much better than my X750.
4. Overall contrast performance matches the X750.
5. Superb convergence even at 4K resolution.
6. No stuck pixels detected (out of 24 million!).
7. Motion is much better. I don't use CMD but even straight 24p telecine motion is noticeably cleaner.
8. The auto tone mapping for HDR is excellent. It's just plug and play assuming the metadata is decent and easy to adjust manually if its not.
9. The HDMI handshake is nearly twice as fast as the X750 and rock solid. I haven't had a single glitch or dropout on any source.
10. Build quality is high. Fit and finish is excellent though I do miss the high gloss black.
Thanks, again for that summary. My question is whether you've had a chance to watch any content in 3D and, if so, how it compares with what you experienced with your X750?
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post #1703 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 04:56 PM
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Not to mention that it is difficult to photograph such a high contrast image without getting some halos/blooming/flare via the camera pipeline. I have a few lenses which are almost flare free but most out there are not.
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post #1704 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 05:02 PM
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I think JVC did the right thing here. Make the signal path as direct as possible by default. As near as I can make out low latency mode only needs to be turned off if you want to use CMD. By definition, CMD must buffer some frames in order to do frame interpolation.

I don't see any other features that are disabled in low latency mode. All MPC controls are still available though I find setting everything to 0 is the best setting anyway. The image is so sharp and pristine that I don't feel the need for any enhancement whatsoever. Maybe some old DVD's or something would need some smoothing and noise reduction but I just haven't gotten around to trying them yet. Same for 3D blu-rays - just not enough time to get to everything in the first few days.

I think this thread is going to go crazy once significant numbers of these projectors make it to all parts of the world.
Just remembered. Also can't use keystone if low lag is on. But then you should never use keystone.
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post #1705 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
I think JVC did the right thing here. Make the signal path as direct as possible by default. As near as I can make out low latency mode only needs to be turned off if you want to use CMD. By definition, CMD must buffer some frames in order to do frame interpolation.

I don't see any other features that are disabled in low latency mode. All MPC controls are still available though I find setting everything to 0 is the best setting anyway. The image is so sharp and pristine that I don't feel the need for any enhancement whatsoever. Maybe some old DVD's or something would need some smoothing and noise reduction but I just haven't gotten around to trying them yet. Same for 3D blu-rays - just not enough time to get to everything in the first few days.

I think this thread is going to go crazy once significant numbers of these projectors make it to all parts of the world.
thats great to hear Bruce ! and good to hear MPC is best at zero, never liked using that anyways and you are getting a nice sharp and pristine image is testament !

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post #1706 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 05:05 PM
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Thanks, again for that summary. My question is whether you've had a chance to watch any content in 3D and, if so, how it compares with what you experienced with your X750?
Not yet sorry. Maybe time to watch Mad Max Fury Road again! My favourite 3D movie.
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post #1707 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 05:15 PM
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Not yet sorry. Maybe time to watch Mad Max Fury Road again! My favourite 3D movie.
OH yeah ! look forward to hearing what think on that

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post #1708 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 05:19 PM
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I’m on the list for a new JVC and I do have a Lumagen pro so I’m looking forward to seeing the tone mapping difference.
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post #1709 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 05:32 PM
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• My UNIT #1 is measuring circa 18% BELOW JVC's specification regarding ON/OFF contrast performance; and circa 40% BELOW what is statistically the corresponding mean for the pre-existing eShift range for ANSI. @Dj Dee 's unit is measuring circa 26% ABOVE spec for ON/OFF and 14% BELOW for ANSI.

I recall Arrow thought his unit was defective originally. Though changed that to perhaps not now. What should the contrast levels be before the protector is determined to be defective? What is needed to correct the defect? Is a firmware update all that is needed? Or does the projector need to be replaced? Or will JVC say there’s no problem and deny any corrections or repairs?
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post #1710 of 13968 Old 01-13-2019, 05:39 PM
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Not yet sorry. Maybe time to watch Mad Max Fury Road again! My favourite 3D movie.

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