Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 592 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17731 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
I'll look more closely at BR 2049, Mark. Thanks! I'll report back as to whether or not it "doesn't look terrible" when double tone mapped.

I guess my impression was that, despite being pre-mapped to a 500 nits curve, the source material still constantly sent data of varying brightness to the NX7 where DTM could be applied to them. My PJ was calibrated by Chad B. and I don't inordinately "goose up" the brightness via the Optimizer. My 'go to' video sequence which contains brightness which is typically clipped, immediately followed by a dark scene is the beginning of 'Altered Carbon' (Netflix: 1st season, 2nd episode). The double tone mapping is, subjectively, better when double tone mapped than using the JVC frame/scene DTM on its own (regardless of which DTM options I used). I've yet to notice any blooming, inordinate clipping or crush when it comes to any HDR source material; only an accurate, well balanced & immersive video experience.

I'd sure love it if other owners of the UB9000/820/420 & JVC PJ with DTM who monitor this thread could also make some real world comparisons and report back on their own findings. I would certainly welcome that!
When Lumagen first released their DTM firmware, I initially watched stuff using my Chad B HDR curves and DTM. I thought it looked good too. But just using DTM without any other manipulation has resulted in a much better picture overall. At least that's what I've found.
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post #17732 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:27 AM
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I think I've found one of the limitations of the JVC Dynamic Tone Mapping. The Starship Troopers UHD disc looks like garbage at all Frame Adapt HDR settings. Even in Low level, the picture is too bright with lots of clipped highlights. The contrast boost also emphasizes grain and the whole thing looks noisy as hell. Using both low lamp with Low HDR is somewhat watchable, but it's still an eyesore.

Perhaps this is just a lousy transfer from Sony, but I recall being able to get a better image using the tone mapping in my OPPO 203 (with a lot of manual adjustment, admittedly). I didn't have time to try that last night.

I'd say that the old Blu-ray version looks better in general, but the Blu-ray had a bizarre problem where the picture suddenly became infested with edge enhancement about 90 minutes into the movie even though there was none earlier. The UHD does fix that problem, at least.

Other stuff I tested last night looked much better. I posted earlier in this thread that I found the Auto setting to be erratic and unreliable. However, the more content I play, the more Auto does seem to pick the right level more often than not. It may have just happened that the first two things I played were torture tests that tripped it up. I think I'm going to start using this as my default for a while.

I'm undecided about whether high lamp or low lamp is better for HDR. I'm still having trouble getting much "pop" in highlights with low lamp, and high lamp often looks more vibrant. However, sometimes high lamp just washes out the picture on my screen. There's no consistency right now as to what will look better, which is very frustrating.
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post #17733 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
When Lumagen first released their DTM firmware, I initially watched stuff using my Chad B HDR curves and DTM. I thought it looked good too. But just using DTM without any other manipulation has resulted in a much better picture overall. At least that's what I've found.
Craig, you're again comparing apples to oranges. Even after Chad B. provided me with his HDR curves (which were superior to the static Panasonic/JVC curves), double tone mapping with the UB820 was superior in A/B comparisons. As I remember, your JVC PJ doesn't perform DTM, so your experience (although valid) still isn't capable of the A/B that I'm hoping others can provide.

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post #17734 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I think I've found one of the limitations of the JVC Dynamic Tone Mapping. The Starship Troopers UHD disc looks like garbage at all Frame Adapt HDR settings. Even in Low level, the picture is too bright with lots of clipped highlights. The contrast boost also emphasizes grain and the whole thing looks noisy as hell. Using both low lamp with Low HDR is somewhat watchable, but it's still an eyesore.

Perhaps this is just a lousy transfer from Sony, but I recall being able to get a better image using the tone mapping in my OPPO 203 (with a lot of manual adjustment, admittedly). I didn't have time to try that last night.

I'd say that the old Blu-ray version looks better in general, but the Blu-ray had a bizarre problem where the picture suddenly became infested with edge enhancement about 90 minutes into the movie even though there was none earlier. The UHD does fix that problem, at least.

Other stuff I tested last night looked much better. I posted earlier in this thread that I found the Auto setting to be erratic and unreliable. However, the more content I play, the more Auto does seem to pick the right level more often than not. It may have just happened that the first two things I played were torture tests that tripped it up. I think I'm going to start using this as my default for a while.

I'm undecided about whether high lamp or low lamp is better for HDR. I'm still having trouble getting much "pop" in highlights with low lamp, and high lamp often looks more vibrant. However, sometimes high lamp just washes out the picture on my screen. There's no consistency right now as to what will look better, which is very frustrating.
Josh, do you also own a Panasonic UHD player (9000/820/420) in addition to your Oppo 203?

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post #17735 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:33 AM
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Also, my projector got stuck in Frame Adapt HDR mode (and high lamp) when I switched back to SDR content again last night. This is becoming a regular problem. Manually changing those two settings once seems to unlock the projector, and the auto-switching will work again afterwards... for a while, anyway.

I saw someone comment that doing a factory reset fixes this. Can anyone else confirm that? Is it really a permanent fix? I don't want to bother with a factory reset only to find that this problem pops up again eventually.
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post #17736 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Josh, do you also own a Panasonic UHD player (9000/820/420) in addition to your Oppo 203?
I do not. My only UHD sources at the moment are the OPPO 203 and a Roku Premiere.

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post #17737 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I do not. My only UHD sources at the moment are the OPPO 203 and a Roku Premiere.
Bummer. Thanks for responding.

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post #17738 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Also, my projector got stuck in Frame Adapt HDR mode (and high lamp) when I switched back to SDR content again last night. This is becoming a regular problem. Manually changing those two settings once seems to unlock the projector, and the auto-switching will work again afterwards... for a while, anyway.

I saw someone comment that doing a factory reset fixes this. Can anyone else confirm that? Is it really a permanent fix? I don't want to bother with a factory reset only to find that this problem pops up again eventually.
I was one of those that did a Factory Reset of my NX7 and it seems to have fixed the auto SDR/HDR switching problem. I can't, however, say that it's a permanent fix as it's only been since Saturday that I did it and I've only used the projector a couple of times since then. I have switched back and forth between SDR and HDR sources (on my UB9000, 203, and Roku) during those times and "So far, So Good" (to quote my favorite line from the Magnificent Seven reboot).
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post #17739 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Craig, you're again comparing apples to oranges. Even after Chad B. provided me with his HDR curves (which were superior to the static Panasonic/JVC curves), double tone mapping with the UB820 was superior in A/B comparisons. As I remember, your JVC PJ doesn't perform DTM, so your experience (although valid) still isn't capable of the A/B that I'm hoping others can provide.
True - not the same DTM. But I'm not convinced double tone mapping in general is the best solution. But hey - it all looks better than Gamma D did with the RS600!
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post #17740 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I think I've found one of the limitations of the JVC Dynamic Tone Mapping. The Starship Troopers UHD disc looks like garbage at all Frame Adapt HDR settings. Even in Low level, the picture is too bright with lots of clipped highlights. The contrast boost also emphasizes grain and the whole thing looks noisy as hell. Using both low lamp with Low HDR is somewhat watchable, but it's still an eyesore.

Perhaps this is just a lousy transfer from Sony, but I recall being able to get a better image using the tone mapping in my OPPO 203 (with a lot of manual adjustment, admittedly). I didn't have time to try that last night.


I'd say that the old Blu-ray version looks better in general, but the Blu-ray had a bizarre problem where the picture suddenly became infested with edge enhancement about 90 minutes into the movie even though there was none earlier. The UHD does fix that problem, at least.

Other stuff I tested last night looked much better. I posted earlier in this thread that I found the Auto setting to be erratic and unreliable. However, the more content I play, the more Auto does seem to pick the right level more often than not. It may have just happened that the first two things I played were torture tests that tripped it up. I think I'm going to start using this as my default for a while.

I'm undecided about whether high lamp or low lamp is better for HDR. I'm still having trouble getting much "pop" in highlights with low lamp, and high lamp often looks more vibrant. However, sometimes high lamp just washes out the picture on my screen. There's no consistency right now as to what will look better, which is very frustrating.
Starship Troopers UHD is an odd disc. At times it looks great, and at times it's pretty grainy - just like Close Encounters of the Third Kind on UHD. If the studio had used noise reduction to minimize grain, it would have been a " damned if you do, damned if you don't " thing. At least The Fifth Element turned out pretty good on UHD - so I never have to buy that film ever again!
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post #17741 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:53 AM
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Hi,
I already touched this in the past but I still didn't get a final answer: is there any way to use the new DTM with HLG material? If not, why? I have a Sky Q decoder and I was hoping to leverage this beautiful feature on all the 4K HDR movies on that platform, but I didn't find a way to do that. I realized that in the HLG preference the frame adapt hdr can't be selected.
I answered this for you when you asked it earlier. No, can't do DTM with HLG content.
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post #17742 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 09:54 AM
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We watched the new Allddlin on Blu-ray last night. It’s safe to presume that you don’t want to use the new update on Anything less than 4K HDR, correct? With a regular Blu-ray it looks horrible. Had to revert back to my user 1 setting to make it watchable. But, with HDR material it looks fantastic.


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post #17743 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:00 AM
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The thinking here is that it is better for the JVC to have the full *raw* data from the disc, in the same way that you would rather edit a photo using its original Raw file, rather than a compressed Jpeg.
Playing the devil’s advocate here:

Looking at another photo editing analogy - there’s are many who believe that sequential up-sampling using small steps produces better end result than a single-step up-sampling.

I don’t believe there’s an inherent advantage in double tone mapping; however, since tone mapping is an art as much as a science, I don’t discount the possibility that double (Panasonic + JVC) tone mapping can potentially produce “better” results (whatever that means) to some eyes. This is particularly true for very high nits scenes such as the one from Altered Carbon (10,000 nits).

Even without double tone mapping, people have been Indicating different preference over tone mapping curves (e.g., Manni’s vs Jav’s curves).

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post #17744 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Applemike68 View Post
We watched the new Allddlin on Blu-ray last night. It’s safe to presume that you don’t want to use the new update on Anything less than 4K HDR, correct? With a regular Blu-ray it looks horrible. Had to revert back to my user 1 setting to make it watchable. But, with HDR material it looks fantastic.


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All HDR presets including Frame Adapt shouldn't be used for content that is not mastered in HDR. So any other content, including a 2K Blu Ray, would use your normal SDR preset.
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post #17745 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Playing the devil’s advocate here:

Looking at another photo editing analogy - there’s are many who believe that sequential up-sampling using small steps produces better end result than a single-step up-sampling.

I don’t believe there’s an inherent advantage in double tone mapping; however, since tone mapping is an art as much as a science, I don’t discount the possibility that double (Panasonic + JVC) tone mapping can potentially produce “better” results (whatever that means) to some eyes. This is particularly true for very high nits scenes such as the one from Altered Carbon (10,000 nits).
You make a good point, Dominic. My intent was just to use that analogy to illustrate how I understood the argument of those recommending leaving all the Tone Mapping to the JVC's DTM.

At best, it's an imperfect analogy, as your up-sampling analogy demonstrates.

I don't have a current generation JVC to experiment with (although that may change in the not too distant future!), and will be following docrog's experience reports, along with others who make comparisons with or without the Panny's HDR Optimizer.

Practical, real-world experience is obviously quite important, but I'd also like to have a solid theoretical basis for decisions like this, to understand how double tone-mapping would actually impact the end result.

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post #17746 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Practical, real-world experience is obviously quite important, but I'd also like to have a solid theoretical basis for decisions like this, to understand how double tone-mapping would actually impact the end result.
Not an expert by any means, but I would stick my neck out and say there is no inherent theoretical basis that supports double tone mapping.
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post #17747 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Playing the devil’s advocate here:

Looking at another photo editing analogy - there’s are many who believe that sequential up-sampling using small steps produces better end result than a single-step up-sampling.

I don’t believe there’s an inherent advantage in double tone mapping; however, since tone mapping is an art as much as a science, I don’t discount the possibility that double (Panasonic + JVC) tone mapping can potentially produce “better” results (whatever that means) to some eyes. This is particularly true for very high nits scenes such as the one from Altered Carbon (10,000 nits).
Different math.

Dynamic tone mapping theoretically should always produce a better result when fed the full dynamic range. The reason is because when you do the initial static tone mapping by the Panasonic you are forcing whatever the original range was (say 20 - 2000 nits) into one container of say (0 - 500) nits, therefore during the scaling process you will either lose black detail or clip your whites, or both. Once clipped the data is lost and no amount of dynamic tone mapping will ever recover the lost data.

However if you feed the full dynamic range (again say 20 - 2000 nits) directly to the JVC and lets say some of the dark scenes really only range from (20 - 100 nits) and a few of the bright scenes only range from ( 500 - 2000), you can see that those dark scenes and even the light scenes can preserve more of the original data when scaling to the native range of your projector.

It is just the math of dynamic scaling vs static scaling. You always want to apply dynamic scaling on the original data and not the clipped static tone mapped data because in the second situation you can't recover what was lost in the first step.
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post #17748 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:16 AM
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I was one of those that did a Factory Reset of my NX7 and it seems to have fixed the auto SDR/HDR switching problem. I can't, however, say that it's a permanent fix as it's only been since Saturday that I did it and I've only used the projector a couple of times since then. I have switched back and forth between SDR and HDR sources (on my UB9000, 203, and Roku) during those times and "So far, So Good" (to quote my favorite line from the Magnificent Seven reboot).
Thanks. If you experience the projector getting stuck on the wrong setting again, be sure to let us know.

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post #17749 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:18 AM
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post #17750 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
It is just the math of dynamic scaling vs static scaling. You always want to apply dynamic scaling on the original data and not the clipped static tone mapped data because is the second situation you can't recover what was lost in the first step.
The Panasonic HDR optimizer does not clip highlight above 500 nits (as an example); it maps highlights down to that range, which is still beyond what the projector can produce.

In any case, I’ve expressed the same opinion long before the UB820 came out - there is no inherent advantage in double tone mapping, so no need to preach to the choir.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 10-15-2019 at 10:26 AM.
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post #17751 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Starship Troopers UHD is an odd disc. At times it looks great, and at times it's pretty grainy - just like Close Encounters of the Third Kind on UHD. If the studio had used noise reduction to minimize grain, it would have been a " damned if you do, damned if you don't " thing.
The Blu-ray has grain too, but it doesn't look this bad. The contrast boost exaggerates the grain and makes it look worse.

I'm getting clipped highlights all over the place on that disc. At the beginning of the movie there's a propaganda film with soldiers promoting the benefits of the army, and a little kid pops his head out to say, "I'm doing my part!" The glare on the kid's face is awful. Later, during Rico's high school football game, the whites of the helmets and uniforms are crushed to oblivion. The Blu-ray looks much better in both instances.

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post #17752 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Panasonic HDR optimizer does not clip highlight above 500 nits (as an example); it maps highlights down to that range, which is still beyond what the projector can produce.
It does clip. Compression is still a form of clipping. Whenever you shove 2000 things into 500 slots, data is lost there is no way around it.

They don't hard clip at 500 nits, I agree but they have to scale say 20 - 2000 into 0 - 500. So straight scaling would be to use a scaler of .25. Where 20 becomes 5 and 2000 becomes 500 and all values in between are scaled. But remember even though you are scaling in this situation you are still throwing out 3/4s of the data. I know the Panasonic doesn't straight scale either it uses some combination of scaling and clipping to compress the data into the new tone map. Either way it is still better to dynamic scale off of the original data and not the clipped or compressed data.
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post #17753 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Panasonic HDR optimizer does not clip highlight above 500 nits (as an example); it maps highlights down to that range, which is still beyond what the projector can produce.

In any case, I’ve expressed the same opinion long before the UB820 came out - there is no inherent advantage in double tone mapping, so no need to preach to the choir.
Just talking theory here, as I don't have a Panasonic player to test with.

The Dynamic Tone Mapping analyzes the entire video signal to make its mapping decisions, but what those mapping decisions are may be inferior to what another device would do with the same data. If Panasonic or another device had better quality tone mapping than JVC does (on something like that problematic Starship Troopers disc, for example), letting that device map down to 500 nits first could indeed theoretically produce a better result than letting JVC do everything on its own.

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post #17754 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:35 AM
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Just talking theory here, as I don't have a Panasonic player to test with.

The Dynamic Tone Mapping analyzes the entire video signal to make its mapping decisions, but what those mapping decisions are may be inferior to what another device would do with the same data. If Panasonic or another device had better quality tone mapping than JVC does (on something like that problematic Starship Troopers disc, for example), letting that device map down to 500 nits first could indeed theoretically produce a better result than letting JVC do everything on its own.
That’s why I said in my previous post
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I don’t discount the possibility that double (Panasonic + JVC) tone mapping can potentially produce “better” results (whatever that means) to some eyes.

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post #17755 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:36 AM
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Thanks. If you experience the projector getting stuck on the wrong setting again, be sure to let us know.
Yep, will do.
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post #17756 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Just talking theory here, as I don't have a Panasonic player to test with.

The Dynamic Tone Mapping analyzes the entire video signal to make its mapping decisions, but what those mapping decisions are may be inferior to what another device would do with the same data. If Panasonic or another device had better quality tone mapping than JVC does (on something like that problematic Starship Troopers disc, for example), letting that device map down to 500 nits first could indeed theoretically produce a better result than letting JVC do everything on its own.
I don't buy it. The Panasonic or some other device is making a decision on how to tone map using one static tone map for the entire movie. It then compresses the entire large dynamic range into a smaller container. Applying dynamic tone mapping after static tone mapping sort of defeats the purpose of dynamic tone mapping because the damage has already been done.

I just don't see a case where static tone mapping would help prior to dynamic tone mapping because all it does it limit the ability of dynamic tone mapping making scene to scene adjustments for the best result.
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post #17757 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:42 AM
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It does clip. Compression is still a form of clipping. Whenever you shove 2000 things into 500 slots, data is lost there is no way around it.

They don't hard clip at 500 nits, I agree but they have to scale say 20 - 2000 into 0 - 500. So straight scaling would be to use a scaler of .25. Where 20 becomes 5 and 2000 becomes 500 and all values in between are scaled. But remember even though you are scaling in this situation you are still throwing out 3/4s of the data. I know the Panasonic doesn't straight scale either it uses some combination of scaling and clipping to compress the data into the new tone map. Either way it is still better to dynamic scale off of the original data and not the clipped or compressed data.
No, scaling down by a factor of 4 does not mean you’re throwing out 3/4 of the data, as long as you have sufficient numerical precision. It you were to use floating point for scaling there would be no loss.

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post #17758 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 10:55 AM
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No, scaling down by a factor of 4 does not mean you’re throwing out 3/4 of the data, as long as you have sufficient numerical precision. It you were to use floating point for scaling there would be no loss.
But you don't have numerical precision in this case. You are squeezing 0 - 4000 or 0 - 10000 into a 0 - 500 container. Somewhere some light has to be lost. All of the tone map tables I have ever seen are integer values. So yes 3/4s of the data is lost.
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post #17759 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I don’t believe there’s an inherent advantage in double tone mapping; however, since tone mapping is an art as much as a science, I don’t discount the possibility that double (Panasonic + JVC) tone mapping can potentially produce “better” results (whatever that means) to some eyes.
Yes, that's been my point. We all are imperfect observers and any subjective determination of "better" results are exactly that: subjective. I haven't been fighting the question of whether or not the mathematics behind single DTM should yield a more accurate picture (theoretical, rather than observed), only noting what our already brightness limited displays can produce in any individual HT environment. That's why I've asked other Panasonic UHD player/JVC DTM owners to chime in with actual comparisons from their HTs that substantiate their own perceived advantage of one method versus another........

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post #17760 of 28682 Old 10-15-2019, 11:06 AM
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But you don't have numerical precision in this case. You are squeezing 0 - 4000 or 0 - 10000 into a 0 - 500 container. Somewhere some light has to be lost. All of the tone map tables I have ever seen are integer values. So yes 3/4s of the data is lost.
No, even with integers you don't lose 3/4 of the data. The PQ curve is highly non-linear; 2000 nits is represented by code 789 whereas 500 nits is represented by code 657 (on a scale of 64 to 940, representing 0 to 10,000 nits).

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