Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 595 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17821 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 04:47 PM
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I was wondering if it matters what Chroma Subsampling setting in the Roku Ultra to use. 4:2:0 or 4:2:2. Either one appears to be compatible with the RS1000. I'm thinking to use 4:2:0 and let the RS1000 do its thing?
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post #17822 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
Quick question:

I'm just setting up my rebuilt theater with a brand new RS1000. I've ordered an i1Basic Pro 2 and I'll be getting a Spyder.

When using either of these with JVC Autocal, do I run the probe's own software as well, or does the Autocal drive them directly?

Also, is there any problem with running Autocal right away, since I'm having Chad B come in May (around when I hit 100 hours, since I generally use my theater one night a week)?

I'd suggest letting it run overnight a while so you can get at least 200 hrs. on it before he calibrates.

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post #17823 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 05:22 PM
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I'd suggest letting it run overnight a while so you can get at least 200 hrs. on it before he calibrates.
Running the projector with 'Hide' option counts?
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post #17824 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 05:26 PM
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Running the projector with 'Hide' option counts?
The lamp still runs normally in Hide mode.
In any case, if you’re calibrating it yourself it doesn’t matter how many hours the lamp has; just make sure to warm it up for an hour prior to calibration.
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post #17825 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
Quick question:

I'm just setting up my rebuilt theater with a brand new RS1000. I've ordered an i1Basic Pro 2 and I'll be getting a Spyder.

When using either of these with JVC Autocal, do I run the probe's own software as well, or does the Autocal drive them directly?

Also, is there any problem with running Autocal right away, since I'm having Chad B come in May (around when I hit 100 hours, since I generally use my theater one night a week)?
Where did you order your i1Basic Pro 2 from?
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post #17826 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
Quick question:

I'm just setting up my rebuilt theater with a brand new RS1000. I've ordered an i1Basic Pro 2 and I'll be getting a Spyder.

When using either of these with JVC Autocal, do I run the probe's own software as well, or does the Autocal drive them directly?

Also, is there any problem with running Autocal right away, since I'm having Chad B come in May (around when I hit 100 hours, since I generally use my theater one night a week)?
Where did you order your i1Basic Pro 2 from?
Amazon. Why?

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post #17827 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 06:08 PM
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Hi,
I already touched this in the past but I still didn't get a final answer: is there any way to use the new DTM with HLG material? If not, why? I have a Sky Q decoder and I was hoping to leverage this beautiful feature on all the 4K HDR movies on that platform, but I didn't find a way to do that. I realized that in the HLG preference the frame adapt hdr can't be selected.
I answered this for you when you asked it earlier. No, can't do DTM with HLG content.
HLG would not benefit from a DTM. It’s actually a much better standard than HDR10 as the calibration is fixed and works very much like SDR (as in a function is used that is relative to the brightness of the display as opposed to this fixed nonsense). 😉
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post #17828 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 06:29 PM
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No one?
4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0

https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/chroma-subsampling
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post #17829 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 07:05 PM
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I have the Panasonic ub820

What do I have to select to make sure the jvc is getting full information to use its DTM? Do I just turn off optimizer and that’s it? Thanks
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post #17830 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 07:05 PM
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Hi,
I already touched this in the past but I still didn't get a final answer: is there any way to use the new DTM with HLG material? If not, why? I have a Sky Q decoder and I was hoping to leverage this beautiful feature on all the 4K HDR movies on that platform, but I didn't find a way to do that. I realized that in the HLG preference the frame adapt hdr can't be selected.
I answered this for you when you asked it earlier. No, can't do DTM with HLG content.
HLG would not benefit from a DTM. It’s actually a much better standard than HDR10 as the calibration is fixed and works very much like SDR (as in a function is used that is relative to the brightness of the display as opposed to this fixed nonsense). 😉
Not true. HLG is a fixed HDR system with a peak of 1000 nits that overlays onto a base SDR gamma. It would still benefit from a DTM system just as much as any other HDR content that is displayed on a monitor that can’t actually do 1000 nits.

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post #17831 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 07:35 PM
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Not true. HLG is a fixed HDR system with a peak of 1000 nits that overlays onto a base SDR gamma. It would still benefit from a DTM system just as much as any other HDR content that is displayed on a monitor that can’t actually do 1000 nits.
I was referring to the JVC DTM not available for use with HLG. That is what I confirmed for him earlier.
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post #17832 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rollon1980 View Post
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Originally Posted by CyberPaul View Post
Hi,
I already touched this in the past but I still didn't get a final answer: is there any way to use the new DTM with HLG material? If not, why? I have a Sky Q decoder and I was hoping to leverage this beautiful feature on all the 4K HDR movies on that platform, but I didn't find a way to do that. I realized that in the HLG preference the frame adapt hdr can't be selected.
I answered this for you when you asked it earlier. No, can't do DTM with HLG content.
HLG would not benefit from a DTM. It’s actually a much better standard than HDR10 as the calibration is fixed and works very much like SDR (as in a function is used that is relative to the brightness of the display as opposed to this fixed nonsense). 😉
Not true. HLG is a fixed HDR system with a peak of 1000 nits that overlays onto a base SDR gamma. It would still benefit from a DTM system just as much as any other HDR content that is displayed on a monitor that can’t actually do 1000 nits.
Fair enough, Kris! I understand what you are saying. However, HLG was designed from the get go to be backwards compatible with SDR displays and actually displays correctly with only one curve with less variation in content.

Now having said that, sure it might benefit from DTM but I think it would be much less of a benefit than HDR10. I do think that HLG avoids lots of the pitfalls of HDR10 when it comes to variable mastering, variable black floor, etc.

You might disagree with me on this but I think we’ll have to see more content mastered in HLG before we find out which way the cookie crumbles. I don’t believe we will have the same pain with HLG as we do with HDR10 but I’m happy to be proven wrong!
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post #17833 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 08:34 PM
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It's been a while since I watched it, but I didn't think it looked 1/2 bad considering the age of the film and it's stylized look to begin with.
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Nah, still not the same thing. You can shine a harsh light on an actor without glare where it looks like the light is reflecting off their skin. These actors are all wearing makeup, specifically powder to cut down on glare like this. That image you posted is not what the movie's photography is supposed to look like.
For reference, here's what the Starship Troopers scene looks like on the regular Blu-ray:



That's considerably less harsh and more reasonable than this:




Keeping in mind that my camera's exposure affects how this photo turned out, here's approximately what it looks like on my screen with DTM at Auto (which appears to select the Low setting). Not much better.

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post #17834 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 08:38 PM
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Hi,
I already touched this in the past but I still didn't get a final answer: is there any way to use the new DTM with HLG material? If not, why? I have a Sky Q decoder and I was hoping to leverage this beautiful feature on all the 4K HDR movies on that platform, but I didn't find a way to do that. I realized that in the HLG preference the frame adapt hdr can't be selected.
I answered this for you when you asked it earlier. No, can't do DTM with HLG content.
HLG would not benefit from a DTM. It’s actually a much better standard than HDR10 as the calibration is fixed and works very much like SDR (as in a function is used that is relative to the brightness of the display as opposed to this fixed nonsense). 😉
Not true. HLG is a fixed HDR system with a peak of 1000 nits that overlays onto a base SDR gamma. It would still benefit from a DTM system just as much as any other HDR content that is displayed on a monitor that can’t actually do 1000 nits.
Fair enough, Kris! I understand what you are saying. However, HLG was designed from the get go to be backwards compatible with SDR displays and actually displays correctly with only one curve with less variation in content.

Now having said that, sure it might benefit from DTM but I think it would be much less of a benefit than HDR10. I do think that HLG avoids lots of the pitfalls of HDR10 when it comes to variable mastering, variable black floor, etc.

You might disagree with me on this but I think we’ll have to see more content mastered in HLG before we find out which way the cookie crumbles. I don’t believe we will have the same pain with HLG as we do with HDR10 but I’m happy to be proven wrong!
Just want to add. 1000nits was just a token value they selected. HLG function will work as well with a 2000nit display and really that’s the genius of HLG. In fact, because of how the function works, it works equally well with a 300nit display as with a 1000nit display (except for the impact of the HDR)

But again, proof will be in the pudding! I stand by what I said. HLG is a well thought through standard. HDR10 was thought up by a bunch of crazies. 😉
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post #17835 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 09:15 PM
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For reference, here's what the Starship Troopers scene looks like on the regular Blu-ray:



That's considerably less harsh and more reasonable than this:



Keeping in mind that my camera's exposure effects how this photo turned out, here's approximately what it looks like on my screen with DTM at Auto (which appears to select the Low setting). Not much better.
can be definite mastering difference between blu-ray and uhd as you would well know... look at revenant.. completely different ... intentionally

the blu-ray looks quite washed out and lacking detail vs the uhd which looks a bit over pumped perhaps ? in saturation and detail ?

id ask again what have for luminance ? SDR/blu-ray are you running around 12-16FL for that and say around 30FL for uhd/HDR ? obviously can individually also calibrate for both...are there any particular selection of other that can contribute... are you using MPC and such ?

ps re cameras ... apart from exposure .. white balance can also impact severely as with camera pre sets eg portrait mode vs landscape vs neutral important to pick what is best representative.
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post #17836 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 09:50 PM
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For reference, here's what the Starship Troopers scene looks like on the regular Blu-ray:
When I look at your photos I see pretty accurate flesh tones which proves the monitor I am looking at, at this moment is accurate as well
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post #17837 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 09:50 PM
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can be definite mastering difference between blu-ray and uhd as you would well know...
Yes, I understand that the UHD disc in this case has a poor transfer. HOWEVER, I've been doing more comparisons with Starship Troopers tonight and I have actually found that the HDR10 profile with the old Auto Tone Map produces marginally better results than Frame Adapt HDR. That's both surprising and disappointing. Unfortunately, my camera is not very good at capturing the difference when taking a photo off my screen.

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id ask again what have for luminance ? SDR/blu-ray are you running around 12-16FL for that and say around 30FL for uhd/HDR ?
I don't have a way of measuring that right now, sorry.

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post #17838 of 28624 Old 10-16-2019, 10:18 PM
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Yes, I understand that the UHD disc in this case has a poor transfer. HOWEVER, I've been doing more comparisons with Starship Troopers tonight and I have actually found that the HDR10 profile with the old Auto Tone Map produces marginally better results than Frame Adapt HDR. That's both surprising and disappointing. Unfortunately, my camera is not very good at capturing the difference when taking a photo off my screen.


I don't have a way of measuring that right now, sorry.
id only be asking why though re the difference you should be getting a better result with dynamic tone mapping not worse ! all i'll put it down to it selecting a mode in auto eg high med or low that doesnt suit your screen or selections. if can pony up around 30FL my bet it works a treat

calibration no doubt an important thing too though

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post #17839 of 28624 Old 10-17-2019, 01:55 AM
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Quick question:

I'm just setting up my rebuilt theater with a brand new RS1000. I've ordered an i1Basic Pro 2 and I'll be getting a Spyder.

When using either of these with JVC Autocal, do I run the probe's own software as well, or does the Autocal drive them directly?

Also, is there any problem with running Autocal right away, since I'm having Chad B come in May (around when I hit 100 hours, since I generally use my theater one night a week)?
You will need to install at least the drivers for the sensors. Best way to do that is to install the sensor software. Not sure about your concern on using the sensors right away. No concern about that, in fact I used the Autocal with my i1Pro2 right after I got my projector. Of course, the color will shift a bit as the bulb ages, that is why we typically wait 100-200 hours before a cal, but again, no reason not to cal it now before the pro cal.
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post #17840 of 28624 Old 10-17-2019, 02:23 AM
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For reference, here's what the Starship Troopers scene looks like on the regular Blu-ray:

You're on the right path to understand the nonsense of marketing. When CD (yes: compact disc) first come out we had a million of new digital transfer of classic music on the new format. They were, at 90% or more, simply rubbish. New doesn't mean better. HDR doesn't mean better for a movie with a photography that was not made with hdr in mind. Sure, you can do fine renditions of pre-hdr movies in hdr (look at Shining, just to name one) but be sure that especially in this "early" stage there will be lots of titles re-edited just to sell more copies under the HDR badge and sometimes the "old" plain 1080 transfer may look better or more natural.
Many directors are complaining about Netflix & Co. putting hdr in their non-hdr works, ruining the final results. Marketing.
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post #17841 of 28624 Old 10-17-2019, 03:02 AM
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The Sony has never been unwatchable in my set-up, even before UB820. The encode is better than the Warner, irrespective of HDR. I own both. Those of you who like this movie and have only the Warner should definitely go for the Sony and revel in the superior detail.
Remember the size of your screen matters here. If your screen is (for example) only 106", then the brightness of your image will be far greater than those of us with bigger screens. Also, some folks need more light than others. My aging eyes don't do so well when light levels are dimmer
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post #17842 of 28624 Old 10-17-2019, 03:28 AM
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Roku Ultra 4K HDR Chroma Subsampling setting with RSx000

I was wondering if it matters what Chroma Subsampling setting in the Roku Ultra to use. 4:2:0 or 4:2:2. Either one appears to be compatible with the RSx000. I'm thinking to use 4:2:0 and let the RS1000 do its thing?
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Thanks David, I've read that article and understand Chroma Subsampling. What I am hoping to understand, is which setting, 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 people are using on their Roku or ATV to feed their RSx000 projectors? Maybe it doesn't matter, as the RSx0000 will convert and do the proper thing?

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post #17843 of 28624 Old 10-17-2019, 04:44 AM
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The new Lion King 4k remake is quite the Tech demo- first time seeing it on screen and has quite the WOW factor-
just skipping thru the disc - it's something to see in motion - sure it will be the new show piece for a few-

Just been trying out the DTM past couple days - nice job JVC -
very similar to gamma curve been using from @Dominic Chan with apparent better handling of black levels-
Its fantastic on few HDR Xbox games have tried - Latest Metro Exodus looks incredible-
been using frame by frame - experimenting between medium and high -
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post #17844 of 28624 Old 10-17-2019, 04:56 AM
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You're on the right path to understand the nonsense of marketing. When CD (yes: compact disc) first come out we had a million of new digital transfer of classic music on the new format. They were, at 90% or more, simply rubbish. New doesn't mean better. HDR doesn't mean better for a movie with a photography that was not made with hdr in mind. Sure, you can do fine renditions of pre-hdr movies in hdr (look at Shining, just to name one) but be sure that especially in this "early" stage there will be lots of titles re-edited just to sell more copies under the HDR badge and sometimes the "old" plain 1080 transfer may look better or more natural.
Many directors are complaining about Netflix & Co. putting hdr in their non-hdr works, ruining the final results. Marketing.
So, you're saying we're suckers for good marketing? For me, if I see anyone making an effort to promote the positives of something in exclusivity --without making the same effort to promote the positives found in something else-- the bias becomes quite evident. Master marketers, to appear convincing, should do both but really can't lest s/he risks the peril of inadvertently promoting the competition. I will say that I like that the new format disks contain more information and wider color, but for film, HDR sometimes takes me out of the illusion. Also, with certain HDR mastering, I too often tend to see elevated black levels. I'll stick to a power gamma for now. Thank you for your post.
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post #17845 of 28624 Old 10-17-2019, 06:11 AM
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Interesting read, Bytehoven. Thanks. So most of the calibrators interviewed in the article seemed to favor using a straight up power gamma. I feel some relief because as I said above, that's what I favor.

A side note: the article is from 2014. That's when BT1886 was just beginning to take stride, so hopefully (for me) those calibrators would feel the same way about the issue today.
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post #17846 of 28624 Old 10-17-2019, 06:14 AM
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Bythoven, I just quoted your post when you referenced this article about gamma:

https://referencehometheater.com/201...gamma-correct/


but in my post your quote was not there and your related post disappeared. I don't know what happened.
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post #17847 of 28624 Old 10-17-2019, 06:34 AM
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I was wondering if it matters what Chroma Subsampling setting in the Roku Ultra to use. 4:2:0 or 4:2:2. Either one appears to be compatible with the RSx000. I'm thinking to use 4:2:0 and let the RS1000 do its thing?



Thanks David, I've read that article and understand Chroma Subsampling. What I am hoping to understand, is which setting, 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 people are using on their Roku or ATV to feed their RSx000 projectors? Maybe it doesn't matter, as the RSx0000 will convert and do the proper thing?

Hi Tom, understand, good question.

I currently have mine set to 4:2:2 on the off chance there's some native content, and that its noticeable. JVC upscaling is good, but not the best. I played with madvr chroma upscaling some, and there was some content where it seemed it was worth the extra GPU processing. However, this was with low HDMI bandwidth 1080P content that I was upscaling.

With current HDMI specs, 4K at 60Hz is bandwidth limited. That is where the Roku setting comes into play I believe. I do not understand right now what trade offs the Roku will make if we select the slightly more bandwidth intensive option of 4:2:2. An example could be that it reduces bits from 10 to 8. For HDR content this would not be desirable, but for SDR is probably fine.

So the optimal setting kind of depends on the content until we get better HDMI. Now that you've asked question, will be more aware now when I select 4k 60Hz content lol.
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Originally Posted by David Mathews View Post
Hi Tom, understand, good question.

I currently have mine set to 4:2:2 on the off chance there's some native content, and that its noticeable. JVC upscaling is good, but not the best. I played with madvr chroma upscaling some, and there was some content where it seemed it was worth the extra GPU processing. However, this was with low HDMI bandwidth 1080P content that I was upscaling.

With current HDMI specs, 4K at 60Hz is bandwidth limited. That is where the Roku setting comes into play I believe. I do not understand right now what trade offs the Roku will make if we select the slightly more bandwidth intensive option of 4:2:2. An example could be that it reduces bits from 10 to 8. For HDR content this would not be desirable, but for SDR is probably fine.

So the optimal setting kind of depends on the content until we get better HDMI. Now that you've asked question, will be more aware now when I select 4k 60Hz content lol.

Thanks Dave, appreciated! I think for now I will use 4:2:2, with the understanding if something doesn't look quite right I'll try the other setting.

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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So, you're saying we're suckers for good marketing? For me, if I see anyone making an effort to promote the positives of something in exclusivity --without making the same effort to promote the positives found in something else-- the bias becomes quite evident. Master marketers, to appear convincing, should do both but really can't lest s/he risks the peril of inadvertently promoting the competition. I will say that I like that the new format disks contain more information and wider color, but for film, HDR sometimes takes me out of the illusion. Also, with certain HDR mastering, I too often tend to see elevated black levels. I'll stick to a power gamma for now. Thank you for your post.
I'm saying that putting hdr at maximum overdrive with no reason in each and every movie ever shooted, with no thinkin brain behind to adjust what has to be adjusted, MAY produce non-optimal results. While an intelligent use of the new technology may help for a better result (most of the Sony new masters of classic movies are an example).
Also: many directors are complaining for the (wrong) use of hdr in their older movies or even series (on Netflix).
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Also: many directors are complaining for the (wrong) use of hdr in their older movies or even series (on Netflix).
Do you have some examples of older movies or series on Netflix that have been remastered to HDR?

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