Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 631 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18901 of 19489 Old 11-08-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
It does happen. I mentioned earlier in the thread that Netflix's The Spy only looks correct with DTM on Low. The Auto setting, which seems to default to Medium, has too much clipping in highlights.
I had the time this afternoon to work through (virtually) the whole gamut of options when playing the very bright scene from 'The Meg' (where the cast boards a bright white yacht to tag the Megalodon). I'd previously been a huge fan of double tone mapping from my UB820, but (IMO) the hands down winner for maintaining highlights as well as depth of picture, was with the Optimizer off, DTM on frame/medium/wide, and using the setting for bright white. Every other combination either blew out the whites or seemed dull/flat. On the other hand, these same options yielded the worst video for difficult Netflix titles like 'Altered Carbon' and "Marco Polo', irrespective of whether the source was the UB820, ATV4K or Roku Ultra. I guess we're still quite a ways from 'one size fits all'..........
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post #18902 of 19489 Old 11-08-2019, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
I had the time this afternoon to work through (virtually) the whole gamut of options when playing the very bright scene from 'The Meg' (where the cast boards a bright white yacht to tag the Megalodon). I'd previously been a huge fan of double tone mapping from my UB820, but (IMO) the hands down winner for maintaining highlights as well as depth of picture, was with the Optimizer off, DTM on frame/medium/wide, and using the setting for bright white. Every other combination either blew out the whites or seemed dull/flat. On the other hand, these same options yielded the worst video for difficult Netflix titles like 'Altered Carbon' and "Marco Polo', irrespective of whether the source was the UB820, ATV4K or Roku Ultra. I guess we're still quite a ways from 'one size fits all'..........
Appreciate the testing and report.

One variable that hasn't been mentioned (that I recall seeing anyway), is that for Panasonic 420/820/9000 users, whether the Optimizer is On or Off, there is also the Dynamic Range Slider that can impact the overall brightness or darkness of the picture.

So we have Optimizer On/Off, Dynamic Range Slider, JVC's DTM Auto/Low/Medium/High setting, Scene-by-Scene vs Frame-by-Frame options, which results in an enormous array of possible combinations.

Unfortunately, I think you're likely correct that we still have a ways to go for a 'set it and forget it' approach to HDR. Things have improved, certainly, in that most of these combinations will yield excellent results in a wide range of movies, and that final quality is better than anything we've had before. But it doesn't seem like we're quite there yet.
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post #18903 of 19489 Old 11-08-2019, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
I had the time this afternoon to work through (virtually) the whole gamut of options when playing the very bright scene from 'The Meg' (where the cast boards a bright white yacht to tag the Megalodon). I'd previously been a huge fan of double tone mapping from my UB820, but (IMO) the hands down winner for maintaining highlights as well as depth of picture, was with the Optimizer off, DTM on frame/medium/wide, and using the setting for bright white. Every other combination either blew out the whites or seemed dull/flat. On the other hand, these same options yielded the worst video for difficult Netflix titles like 'Altered Carbon' and "Marco Polo', irrespective of whether the source was the UB820, ATV4K or Roku Ultra. I guess we're still quite a ways from 'one size fits all'..........


Not sure where I’ve read it ( unless I dreamt it ) but I remember reading the optimizer has to be off for Frame by Frame.

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post #18904 of 19489 Old 11-08-2019, 11:05 PM
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Thank you. Would you just do away with the SurgeX after the UPS since I have whole home surge protection? I would rather save that $250+ and use it elsewhere...
I would, why did you get whole home surge protection if you are not going to use it/trust it. I mean, sure, nothing is full proof but if you are talking about surge protecting everything twice, most people do not even do it at all You can always add it later if need be. Not to mention you pay for home owners insurance right, well some of these polices cover surge so you may already be protected twice, watch that deducible though.....
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post #18905 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
I had the time this afternoon to work through (virtually) the whole gamut of options when playing the very bright scene from 'The Meg' (where the cast boards a bright white yacht to tag the Megalodon). I'd previously been a huge fan of double tone mapping from my UB820, but (IMO) the hands down winner for maintaining highlights as well as depth of picture, was with the Optimizer off, DTM on frame/medium/wide, and using the setting for bright white. Every other combination either blew out the whites or seemed dull/flat. On the other hand, these same options yielded the worst video for difficult Netflix titles like 'Altered Carbon' and "Marco Polo', irrespective of whether the source was the UB820, ATV4K or Roku Ultra. I guess we're still quite a ways from 'one size fits all'..........
I keep asking folks what nits they are achieving. because I have been using DTM since the update with frame adapt on auto with panaub9000/appleTV/oppo 205 as source and on low lamp (achieving 30FL luminance) and it very mcuh been set and forget for me....this is variety of source..... appleTV 4K, pana ub9000 or oppo 205. all have done HDR to justice disc or streaming. with streaming whether amazon prime, or netflix or appleTV+ its all been looking nothing short of fantastic ! ps I am using dI and its on auto 2. all motion interpolation and enhancements and such are all turned off.
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post #18906 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 03:00 AM
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As the huge enhancement delivered by DTM can't be used for HLG, do you recommend any custom curve to improve the experience? Is the gamma curve included in the VPR the best I can use? I'm not happy with Sky Q movies.
Can Manni's HLG curve included in Vertex pack 3.1 still be beneficial?

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post #18907 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 03:22 AM
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I keep asking folks what nits they are achieving. because I have been using DTM since the update with frame adapt on auto with panaub9000/appleTV/oppo 205 as source and on low lamp (achieving 30FL luminance) and it very mcuh been set and forget for me....this is variety of source..... appleTV 4K, pana ub9000 or oppo 205. all have done HDR to justice disc or streaming. with streaming whether amazon prime, or netflix or appleTV+ its all been looking nothing short of fantastic ! ps I am using dI and its on auto 2. all motion interpolation and enhancements and such are all turned off.


Atm that is what it is for me Al set & forget. Will have a look at the FL when I get time.


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post #18908 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 04:10 AM
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That certainly could be done in a normal setup. Unfortunately in my setup, the lens is recessed into the front of the projector closet.
So you need a vertical slide .....
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post #18909 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 05:14 AM
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Exclamation Set your player to "Force HDR" and to output everything at 4K

Before I set up my RS1000 last week, I saw some posts about long delays before anything appears on screen due to HDMI negotiation.

I thought nothing of it until I saw that when I started a film I was sitting in darkness for ten seconds, with the sound starting halfway through that period.

I then noticed a question that appeared on screen when starting a film "HDR: Auto or Forced?"

I tracked that down and found out it was coming from my Oppo UDP-203 player.

I asked in the 203 thread what that was about and was told that Forced doesn't convert SDR material to HDR, but with HDR material it sends HDR without first asking the display whether it can handle HDR (and thus needs the player to convert it to SDR).

On a hunch that this might reduce delays due to HDMI negotiation (I already had the Oppo set to output everything at 4K resolution, since Oppos have always been champion upscalers), I set it to Force HDR.

The answer is that setting the player to "Force HDR" and the player to output everything as 4K speeds things up dramatically, since there's no negotiation at all.

What had been a ten second wait to see anything has been cut back to maybe a second after the sound, which itself appears in only about a second. The projector sees that it's getting HDR and quickly changes to that mode, or sees that it's getting SDR and changes to that mode, but there's no "negotiation" between the two devices, and the AVR, over relative capabilities.

If I wasn't looking for the delay, I wouldn't even notice that it was there!

I assume that other players, not just the Oppo, can be set up similarly: to always output as 4K and to always send HDR when it's present.

PS To get the auto switching in the JVC to work to your liking, play an HDR disk and choose your favorite HDR settings in the JVC: (including Frame by Frame or Scene by Scene - I've had no problems with FBF). Next, play an SDR disk and choose your favorite SDR settings for that (I've become a convert to Natural instead of Cinema).

Leave it set to SDR, and the JVC will take care of the rest, auto-switching between your favorite HDR and SDR modes based on what it's getting.
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Last edited by Philnick; 11-10-2019 at 10:45 AM.
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post #18910 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 05:50 AM
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But it doesn't seem like we're quite there yet.
I don't know...lately I've been feeling like I've arrived.
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post #18911 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 05:52 AM
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I don't know...lately I've been feeling like I've arrived.
I agree that we've come a long way. Perhaps it's just my critical photography eye, but I'm always watching and thinking, 'those shadows could be enhanced slightly,' or 'those highlights could be tamed a bit more' - kind of like I'm working on the image in Photoshop!
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post #18912 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 06:02 AM
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I’m just watching Lucy again and I’m trying to figure out why it looks so PHENOMENAL!!! Is it DTM or is it the Stewart Cima Neve? I have to believe the exceptional smoothness and clarity that I’m seeing is the screen...
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Probably both, but the Neve is certainly helping !
And don't forget about the NX7 itself. But yes, the honeymoon period is over for me and this is the first time I've found myself much more impressed with a machine than when I first received it --DTM!

P.S. Perhaps if I had to complain about something it would be about the remote.
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post #18913 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 06:04 AM
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And don't forget about the NX7 itself. But yes, the honeymoon period is over for me and this is the first time I've found myself much more impressed with a machine than when I first received it --DTM!

P.S. Perhaps if I had to complain about something it would be about the remote.
I think the only JVC remote I've ever opened out of the packaging was the original RS20 remote I had - then I programmed it into my 3 identical universals and haven't opened a JVC remote since. I can't imagine anyone seriously using 10+ remotes that comes with all the equipment.

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post #18914 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 06:17 AM
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And don't forget about the NX7 itself. But yes, the honeymoon period is over for me and this is the first time I've found myself much more impressed with a machine than when I first received it --DTM!

P.S. Perhaps if I had to complain about something it would be about the remote.
For the first time, I’m finding this to be a set it and forget it HDR projector...

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post #18915 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 06:20 AM
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I think the only JVC remote I've ever opened out of the packaging was the original RS20 remote I had - then I programmed it into my 3 identical universals and haven't opened a JVC remote since. I can't imagine anyone seriously using 10+ remotes that comes with all the equipment.

Hi, Mark! Yes. Funny thing is I use the actual OEM remote for the NX7. I like the direct menu option keys but don't like the physical size of the remote and plane of the keys.
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post #18916 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 06:24 AM
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For the first time, I’m finding this to be a set it and forget it HDR projector...
After I was able to dial in my color temp, I've found the same thing.

Did you have to adjust convergence on your NX7?
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post #18917 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 06:33 AM
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After I was able to dial in my color temp, I've found the same thing.

Did you have to adjust convergence on your NX7?
Just 1 notch for horizontal red if I recall correctly...not perfect 1 ft away but look white to me from my seating distance...
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post #18918 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
And don't forget about the NX7 itself. But yes, the honeymoon period is over for me and this is the first time I've found myself much more impressed with a machine than when I first received it --DTM!



P.S. Perhaps if I had to complain about something it would be about the remote.


Same Aztar35 I’m now using the IP with simple control.


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post #18919 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 06:44 AM
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For the first time, I’m finding this to be a set it and forget it HDR projector...


Definitely you should see the struggles I had with my Sony 995es . Don’t get me wrong threw a great picture but it wasn’t a set and forget.


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post #18920 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 06:45 AM
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I can't imagine anyone seriously using 10+ remotes that comes with all the equipment.
You know what, on reflection, I really don't need to mess with the menu. So, I'll include the NX7 in my universal remote for now.


And sorry, I just noticed I used a redundancy here:

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the physical size of the remote
I guess I didn't want the point to wane. Luckily, the mods don't caution users on syntax grounds.
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post #18921 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 08:33 AM
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Can anyone tell me how much lumen drop there is going from high to low lamp mode on the NX7/RS2000?

I currently have a 130” wide scope screen with 1.3 gain and am using an Epson LS10000. Thinking of making the jump to this projector but trying to gauge how much of an improvement it will be over my current picture. According to Projector Central I should see gain of around 7fL (22 to 29) with switching projectors. I am thinking that will be a noticeable improvement but lamp degradation worries me, especially if using high lamp mode. Presently my image is reasonably bright but I have to have all lights off.

I greatly appreciate all input and advice.
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post #18922 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
Can anyone tell me how much lumen drop there is going from high to low lamp mode on the NX7/RS2000?

I currently have a 130” wide scope screen with 1.3 gain and am using an Epson LS10000. Thinking of making the jump to this projector but trying to gauge how much of an improvement it will be over my current picture. According to Projector Central I should see gain of around 7fL (22 to 29) with switching projectors. I am thinking that will be a noticeable improvement but lamp degradation worries me, especially if using high lamp mode. Presently my image is reasonably bright but I have to have all lights off.

I greatly appreciate all input and advice.
Calibrated the JVC in low lamp is as bright as the Epson is in high laser, calibrated. This is with new lamp.
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post #18923 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 09:25 AM
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Appreciate the testing and report.

One variable that hasn't been mentioned (that I recall seeing anyway), is that for Panasonic 420/820/9000 users, whether the Optimizer is On or Off, there is also the Dynamic Range Slider that can impact the overall brightness or darkness of the picture.

So we have Optimizer On/Off, Dynamic Range Slider, JVC's DTM Auto/Low/Medium/High setting, Scene-by-Scene vs Frame-by-Frame options, which results in an enormous array of possible combinations.

Unfortunately, I think you're likely correct that we still have a ways to go for a 'set it and forget it' approach to HDR. Things have improved, certainly, in that most of these combinations will yield excellent results in a wide range of movies, and that final quality is better than anything we've had before. But it doesn't seem like we're quite there yet.
My theater is now " set and forget ", but it took a Lumagen, an RS4500 and a Kris Deering calibration to get there !

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post #18924 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 09:25 AM
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As the huge enhancement delivered by DTM can't be used for HLG, do you recommend any custom curve to improve the experience? Is the gamma curve included in the VPR the best I can use? I'm not happy with Sky Q movies.
Can Manni's HLG curve included in Vertex pack 3.1 still be beneficial?
Anyone?
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post #18925 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 10:39 AM
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I don't know...lately I've been feeling like I've arrived.
When DirecTV put up its HD demo channel in ~2000 I thought we had arrived watching it on a CRT projector.

I have been watching a little bit of the 4K presentation of Minnesota vs. Penn State on DirecTV today. I don't think could have ever imagined a sporting event from ABC ever looking this good on DirecTV. If the tech hasn't arrived, it is just down the block.
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post #18926 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 12:47 PM
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It is not "incorrect". Legal video range is 16-235, but in SDR video there is headroom. BUT, for HDR video there is no above white information, so going above the 10 bit equivalent of 235 is wasting range...
You are confirming that there is no information above 235 (or its equivalent in 10 bit space), so IT IS incorrect to me! As you explained, he is wasting precious range in the already limited VPR space.
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post #18927 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 12:49 PM
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He is wasting it because subjectively he thinks it makes the image look better. I think if he just went to a lower setting for DTM he'd get similar results. I also think this could all be avoided had JVC made it possible to allow a way for the end user/calibrator to inform it how much light you have to work with. Then the DTM could intelligently map to that light output.

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post #18928 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
He is wasting it because subjectively he thinks it makes the image look better. I think if he just went to a lower setting for DTM he'd get similar results. I also think this could all be avoided had JVC made it possible to allow a way for the end user/calibrator to inform it how much light you have to work with. Then the DTM could intelligently map to that light output.
Do you “think” that could possibly be in the plans or is it up there with a snow ball’s chance in hell?
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post #18929 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
He is wasting it because subjectively he thinks it makes the image look better. I think if he just went to a lower setting for DTM he'd get similar results. I also think this could all be avoided had JVC made it possible to allow a way for the end user/calibrator to inform it how much light you have to work with. Then the DTM could intelligently map to that light output.
im really happy with the DTM, but i too think this is a key thing missing from DTM ie being able to tell it peak luminance being achieved by particular setup ...eg 100nits or higher or lower so it could then DTM to light output as you say.

I dont even know what target luminance jvc is aiming at now ? is it 100nits ? or lower for other auto settings of low med vs high ? that these settings also relate to darker and brighter movies confuses the thinking. perhaps if could input luminance....then give the high med low or slider for adjustment incase folk want it still brighter darker etc. or just leave in the middle if happy enough with auto DTM.

while really happy with things, do believe things can always be improved....

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post #18930 of 19489 Old 11-09-2019, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
im really happy with the DTM, but i too think this is a key thing missing from DTM ie being able to tell it peak luminance being achieved by particular setup ...eg 100nits or higher or lower so it could then DTM to light output as you say.

I dont even know what target luminance jvc is aiming at now ? is it 100nits ? or lower for other auto settings of low med vs high ? that these settings also relate to darker and brighter movies confuses the thinking. perhaps if could input luminance....then give the high med low or slider for adjustment incase folk want it still brighter darker etc. or just leave in the middle if happy enough with auto DTM.

while really happy with things, do believe things can always be improved....

For discs, when we set the Panasonic players to the display type, e.g., projector (keeping the optimizer off), I wonder if that sets a ceiling for DTM.
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