Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 633 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18961 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
to be very specific ... and kris has posted here more than once on this that I can see. with regards interplay of tone mapping with pany and DTM on JVCs..... to put it plainly there shouldn't be any interplay ..so my entire post was with tone mapping on the pana turned off. i have a ub9000 myself and it is best to turn tone mapping OFF. the reason very simply being and kris as mentioned has tried to explain. the pana cant but help read the meta data which in many cases is wrong and is not representative of frame by frame that we get with the JVC DTM. what will get is wrong then mapping applied with the pana and with the jvc not being able to do much about it post. if a perfectionist ..running pana tone mapping along with jvc dynamic tone mapping is probably ideal recipe to screw up end results
What you're referring to is the Panny's HDR Optimizer, which alters its tone-mapping based on a Disc's Metadata. I referred to that in my post, acknowledging, and agreeing with the recommendations from Kris and others, that at least on a theoretical basis, it is best to leave the Optimizer Off.

But the Dynamic Range Slider (DRS) I'm asking about is a different beast - there is no on or off here. It has a default setting, and as far as I know, it is not influenced by a disc's metadata. It can be adjusted by the user to darken or brighten the overall image. So it is already in the tone-mapping chain, and can't be removed as such (again, as far as I know).

My question has to do with understanding what it is doing, and whether or not it can be utilized in some fashion to optimize DTM in the JVC's.

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post #18962 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
... My question has to do with understanding what it is doing, and whether or not it can be utilized in some fashion to optimize DTM in the JVC's.
I was thinking the dynamic slider might be useful if you find yourself wishing you had a setting between Medium and High. It won't crush highlights, rather just reshape the curve.
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post #18963 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Dominic... I was thinking the dynamic slider might be useful if you find yourself wishing you had a setting between Medium and High. It won't crush highlights, rather just reshape the curve.
Makes sense. Once I get my NX7 mounted (I'm waiting on the DCR lens before making the swap), I'll be able to more thoroughly do some experimenting, to see if I can better understand how interplay between DRS and DTM might work to our advantage.

I was just hoping someone had already done some of the legwork. The other reason for posting is that I haven't seen the DRS even mentioned in the discussion, which has centered on the HDR Optimizer, and DTM options. It is possible, though not certain, that DRS adjustments could provide some benefit.

(Oh, and while I would be honored to be confused with Dominic Chan, my name is actually Don!)

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post #18964 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
I was thinking the dynamic slider might be useful if you find yourself wishing you had a setting between Medium and High. It won't crush highlights, rather just reshape the curve.
I have done some measurements to evaluate the effects of the DR slider, but am not sure if I can still find them. My measurements were done with files on the USB drive, not on the disc, but I expect the effects to be similar.
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post #18965 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
to be very specific ... and kris has posted here more than once on this that I can see. with regards interplay of tone mapping with pany and DTM on JVCs..... to put it plainly there shouldn't be any interplay ..so my entire post was with tone mapping on the pana turned off. i have a ub9000 myself and it is best to turn tone mapping OFF. the reason very simply being and kris as mentioned has tried to explain. the pana cant but help read the meta data which in many cases is wrong and is not representative of frame by frame that we get with the JVC DTM. what will get is wrong then mapping applied with the pana and with the jvc not being able to do much about it post. if a perfectionist ..running pana tone mapping along with jvc dynamic tone mapping is probably ideal recipe to screw up end results [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
What you're referring to is the Panny's HDR Optimizer, which alters its tone-mapping based on a Disc's Metadata. I referred to that in my post, acknowledging, and agreeing with the recommendations from Kris and others, that at least on a theoretical basis, it is best to leave the Optimizer Off.

But the Dynamic Range Slider (DRS) I'm asking about is a different beast - there is no on or off here. It has a default setting, and as far as I know, it is not influenced by a disc's metadata. It can be adjusted by the user to darken or brighten the overall image. So it is already in the tone-mapping chain, and can't be removed as such (again, as far as I know).

My question has to do with understanding what it is doing, and whether or not it can be utilized in some fashion to optimize DTM in the JVC's.
Fair enough 🙂 I suspect some will not !! Be pleased unless a slider involved 😄 by all means slide away, I am not using it, feel it’s a bit coarse in effect was never totally happy with it prior. And suspect then create also the possibility of adjusting to extreme to suit one title meaning be far from optimum with the next. Or even if adjusting slightly getting into the tweaking per disc per scene/frame which is counter to what set out in your opening post one something that just works and doesn’t need twiddling. I’d suggest creating a world of twiddling but go for it it’s all yours to play with 😄

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post #18966 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 01:28 PM
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After couple months of enjoying my NX9 + DCR on a dual-joist CHief mount, I've found as the weight settles in that the image has slid down just a touch. I initialy aligned the lenses to the screen perfectly, but with this settling in I've had to use lens shift up to correct. May be 4-8 clicks up + to the right.

Is that ok without compromising picture quality or should I be relining up the DCR geometry to the screen?

Other thing I'd add is the mount is lag bolted into a boxed in area of the ceiling, which is of solid construction (see pic).
But when displaying fine text I can see the image slightly shaking as the projector just slightly tremors with the foot falls. Can't see it in moving images, but it is being affected by traffic above, so also wondering if that may be affecting the slight changes in image positioning I'm seeing.
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post #18967 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by paulkorb View Post
The specs don’t list the noise of the fan.

Any one know for the NX5 or NX7 ? And if you don’t know actual dB levels, how does it approximately compare to Sony or Epson projectors?

I don't have the decibel levels and can't compare to those other projectors, but in relative terms, Low lamp mode is whisper quiet and High lamp sounds like a leaf blower.
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post #18968 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 02:10 PM
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I don't have the decibel levels and can't compare to those other projectors, but in relative terms, Low lamp mode is whisper quiet and High lamp sounds like a leaf blower.
I disagree.

My RS1000 - which is the NX5 in all but name and the color of the ring around the lens - has a fan that, while audible in High Fan in a quiet room, can hardly be compared to a leaf blower! I sit less than six feet away from it it and only notice it if I'm listening for it. During a movie, it's not audible.

Next time I'm in my theater, I'll use my old Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level meter - which hasn't gotten much use since I got a receiver with automatic room correction - to measure its loudness in db.
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post #18969 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
. . .
Other thing I'd add is the mount is lag bolted into a boxed in area of the ceiling, which is of solid construction (see pic).
But when displaying fine text I can see the image slightly shaking as the projector just slightly tremors with the foot falls. Can't see it in moving images, but it is being affected by traffic above, so also wondering if that may be affecting the slight changes in image positioning I'm seeing.
When I set up my prior theater, with a Panasonic PT-AE2000, I learned from the thread here on that unit that it had the unfortunate characteristic, when ceiling-mounted upside down, of having its three color filters slide down out of position because the tops of their frames (which become the bottoms when inverted) are adhesive tape that over time weakens from the heat - so I instead sat it right-side up on a wire-frame rack, which avoided that problem while still giving it plenty of ventilation.

So when I set up my new theater, I went the same route. The rack that holds my RS1000 (and all of my electronics) sits on wall-to-wall carpeting on padding on top of the concrete floor of the basement. Maybe you might consider that approach?
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post #18970 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 03:02 PM
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Makes sense. Once I get my NX7 mounted (I'm waiting on the DCR lens before making the swap), I'll be able to more thoroughly do some experimenting, to see if I can better understand how interplay between DRS and DTM might work to our advantage.

I was just hoping someone had already done some of the legwork. The other reason for posting is that I haven't seen the DRS even mentioned in the discussion, which has centered on the HDR Optimizer, and DTM options. It is possible, though not certain, that DRS adjustments could provide some benefit.
There’s a spreadsheet in the Spears and Munsil UHD thread that shows the effect of the DRS, but does not address the effect on the DTM.
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post #18971 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
I was thinking the dynamic slider might be useful if you find yourself wishing you had a setting between Medium and High. It won't crush highlights, rather just reshape the curve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post

(Oh, and while I would be honored to be confused with Dominic Chan, my name is actually Don!)
It's okay; he calls everyone Dominic.


All fun aside, my concern is that anything altering image brightness early in the chain, before DTM gets a hold of it, might jeopardize Frame Adapt's optimal effect.
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post #18972 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 03:38 PM
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It's okay; he calls everyone Dominic.
It's a term of endearment, like Captain, Bro, Dude, Boomer...
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post #18973 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
After couple months of enjoying my NX9 + DCR on a dual-joist CHief mount, I've found as the weight settles in that the image has slid down just a touch. I initialy aligned the lenses to the screen perfectly, but with this settling in I've had to use lens shift up to correct. May be 4-8 clicks up + to the right.

Is that ok without compromising picture quality or should I be relining up the DCR geometry to the screen?

Other thing I'd add is the mount is lag bolted into a boxed in area of the ceiling, which is of solid construction (see pic).
But when displaying fine text I can see the image slightly shaking as the projector just slightly tremors with the foot falls. Can't see it in moving images, but it is being affected by traffic above, so also wondering if that may be affecting the slight changes in image positioning I'm seeing.
Maybe see if your mount manual will allow you to set a rubber gasket in between the top bracket and the ceiling? And a slightly longer pole to move the projector further away from the ceiling might help dissipate the vibrations.
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post #18974 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulkorb View Post
The specs don’t list the noise of the fan.
Any one know for the NX5 or NX7 ? And if you don’t know actual dB levels, how does it approximately compare to Sony or Epson projectors?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
I disagree.
My RS1000 - which is the NX5 in all but name and the color of the ring around the lens - has a fan that, while audible in High Fan in a quiet room, can hardly be compared to a leaf blower! I sit less than six feet away from it it and only notice it if I'm listening for it. During a movie, it's not audible.
Ya, I have never heard that expression on a fan from a projector before, lol. I assume to that user he feels it is loud. In all fairness fan noise is very subjective from user to user. Some can not hear a fan, while for other it will drive them mad......
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post #18975 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
It's okay; he calls everyone Dominic.
Good to know!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
All fun aside, my concern is that anything altering image brightness early in the chain, before DTM gets a hold of it, might jeopardize Frame Adapt's optimal effect.
The thing is, no matter where the Slider is set, it is actually doing something, so not choosing something is still choosing something, if you see what I mean. There is a default value, which is to some extent arbitrary, and which may or may not be ideal for any given setup.

So I think the status of the Dynamic Range Slider needs to be taken into consideration in the overall setup, as it influences how JVC's DTM is operating.

In the thread Dominic referred to, I found this quote from Kris Deering:

Quote:
Kris Deering said:
....that is where the slider comes into play. That assigns how much dynamic range you actually have to work with. So with the slider at default, you are working with 800 nits. If you raise it you are lowering that number (and the image gets brighter due to compression). If you lower it you are telling the player you have MORE nits to work with and the image gets darker (less dynamic range compression and more saturation).
So the Dynamic Range Slider is in fact impacting JVC's DTM, even if we ignore it, and pretend it's not there.
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Ya, I have never heard that expression on a fan from a projector before, lol. I assume to that user he feels it is loud. In all fairness fan noise is very subjective from user to user. Some can not hear a fan, while for other it will drive them mad......
And, ya got your various types of leaf blowers, hand held, back pack, and the model you tow behind your John Deere, which is the rs4500 on high laser?
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post #18977 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:00 PM
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Ya, I have never heard that expression on a fan from a projector before, lol. I assume to that user he feels it is loud. In all fairness fan noise is very subjective from user to user. Some can not hear a fan, while for other it will drive them mad......
That's a great point, Chris. Thanks.

Yeah, I too do think an individual's tolerance and hearing acuity play a large part in that subjectivity. However, I would add that a room's ambient noise levels also play a big part. For example, if someone is located in Cambridge, MA (a metro area) in a room that is not fully optimized for sound, a quasi anechoic chamber, if you would, then sounds like fan operational noises can be subjectively perceived as "not so loud" --given the ambient threshold baseline was loud to begin with/with which to begin.
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post #18978 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
... So the Dynamic Range Slider is in fact impacting JVC's DTM, even if we ignore it, and pretend it's not there.
I'm curious about the same DSR consideration feeding a Lumagen with a ub820/9000. But I'm probably safe thinking the kris comment would carry over.
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post #18979 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:03 PM
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I think how loud some projectors seem is partially due to room acoustics. Any hard sound reflective surfaces near the projector will make it sound louder. Acoustically absorptive surfaces will help .
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post #18980 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Good to know!!




The thing is, no matter where the Slider is set, it is actually doing something, so not choosing something is still choosing something, if you see what I mean. There is a default value, which is to some extent arbitrary, and which may or may not be ideal for any given setup.

So I think the status of the Dynamic Range Slider needs to be taken into consideration in the overall setup, as it influences how JVC's DTM is operating.

In the thread Dominic referred to, I found this quote from Kris Deering:



So the Dynamic Range Slider is in fact impacting JVC's DTM, even if we ignore it, and pretend it's not there.
So, what you're saying is that the Panny players still have a purpose to serve here.
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~


So the Dynamic Range Slider is in fact impacting JVC's DTM, even if we ignore it, and pretend it's not there.
not when i run material through the oppo 205... or appleTV 4K for that matter

there are ways to make sure not impacting...ignore it ... pretend its not there
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post #18982 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:11 PM
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So, what you're saying is that the Panny players still have a purpose to serve here.
There is certainly some potential here, for the Dynamic Range Slider to help optimize HDR performance on the JVC's.

If Frame-by-Frame Dynamic Tone Mapping were completely straightforward, and uncomplicated, then we wouldn't be needing any options for it: Auto, Low, Medium, High. So things are more complex than we would otherwise like to think.

Kris Deering's comments on the Dynamic Range Slider, if I'm understanding them correctly, suggest that the Slider allows the output from the Panasonic to be modified for the available brightness and dynamic range available on our Projectors. And as I indicated, the default setting is providing a particular value for this, which may or may not be suitable for any given projector or room.

So it seems that if we adjust the DRS to more suitably match our projector's brightness and dynamic range, it might allow for better performance of the JVC's DTM.

So this is what I've been thinking about, from a purely conceptual basis. How this ends up being translated into real-world performance, I don't know. But I think it is potentially a worthwhile avenue to explore.

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post #18983 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
not when i run material through the oppo 205... or appleTV 4K for that matter

there are ways to make sure not impacting...ignore it ... pretend its not there
Just to be clear (and I realize you may be jesting in part), everything I'm talking about with regard to the Dynamic Range Slider applies only to the Panasonic 420/820/9000 players. I'm not familiar with how the Oppo or AppleTV work in this regard, or what options they provide to the user for HDR content.
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post #18984 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
There is certainly some potential here, for the Dynamic Range Slider to help optimize HDR performance on the JVC's.

If Frame-by-Frame Dynamic Tone Mapping were completely straightforward, and uncomplicated, then we wouldn't be needing any options for it: Auto, Low, Medium, High. So things are more complex than we would otherwise like to think.

Kris Deering's comments on the Dynamic Range Slider, if I'm understanding them correctly, suggest that the Slider allows the output from the Panasonic to be modified for the available brightness and dynamic range available on our Projectors. And as I indicated, the default setting is providing a particular value for this, which may or may not be suitable for any given projector or room.

So it seems that if we adjust the DRS to more suitably match our projector's brightness and dynamic range, it might allow for better performance of the JVC's DTM.

So this is what I've been thinking about, from a purely conceptual basis. How this ends up being translated into real-world performance, I don't know. But I think it is potentially a worthwhile avenue to explore.
Got it. As more people test, we'll get more answers.
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post #18985 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:23 PM
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Got it. As more people test, we'll get more answers.
We could take a look at the DSR at our meeting? I was planning to bring theub820.

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post #18986 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
So it seems that if we adjust the DRS to more suitably match our projector's brightness and dynamic range, it might allow for better performance of the JVC's DTM.

So this is what I've been thinking about, from a purely conceptual basis. How this ends up being translated into real-world performance, I don't know. But I think it is potentially a worthwhile avenue to explore.
If the projector's peak white is 120 nits (as an example) and you set the diffuse white to 25 nits, the remaining 95 nits is available for the mapping of highlights. If the projector's peak white is only 70 nits, then there's only 45 nits left for the highlights, so one may need to reduce the diffuse white (dimmer picture) to get more contrast.

Whether the adjustment is done using the Panasonic DRS or JVCs own Low/Medium/High control, the same tradeoff needs to be made.
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post #18987 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:48 PM
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After couple months of enjoying my NX9 + DCR on a dual-joist CHief mount, I've found as the weight settles in that the image has slid down just a touch. I initialy aligned the lenses to the screen perfectly, but with this settling in I've had to use lens shift up to correct. May be 4-8 clicks up + to the right.

Is that ok without compromising picture quality or should I be relining up the DCR geometry to the screen?

Other thing I'd add is the mount is lag bolted into a boxed in area of the ceiling, which is of solid construction (see pic).
But when displaying fine text I can see the image slightly shaking as the projector just slightly tremors with the foot falls. Can't see it in moving images, but it is being affected by traffic above, so also wondering if that may be affecting the slight changes in image positioning I'm seeing.
The problem with the Chief mount and the RS3000 is the mount is based on the previous JVC designs and not the new ones. With the larger lens of the RS3000 the center of gravity is farther forward. I struggled with this for the first month or so because almost every foot fall would cause vibrations and I've NEVER had that problem with any other projector before (including the RS4500). I ended up putting some weights on the back of the projector to shift the CG more toward the middle and I also used some hanging isolators that reduce the structure borne vibration from the ceiling/mount. Now I get zero vibration from anything.

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post #18988 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
There is certainly some potential here, for the Dynamic Range Slider to help optimize HDR performance on the JVC's.

If Frame-by-Frame Dynamic Tone Mapping were completely straightforward, and uncomplicated, then we wouldn't be needing any options for it: Auto, Low, Medium, High. So things are more complex than we would otherwise like to think.

Kris Deering's comments on the Dynamic Range Slider, if I'm understanding them correctly, suggest that the Slider allows the output from the Panasonic to be modified for the available brightness and dynamic range available on our Projectors. And as I indicated, the default setting is providing a particular value for this, which may or may not be suitable for any given projector or room.

So it seems that if we adjust the DRS to more suitably match our projector's brightness and dynamic range, it might allow for better performance of the JVC's DTM.

So this is what I've been thinking about, from a purely conceptual basis. How this ends up being translated into real-world performance, I don't know. But I think it is potentially a worthwhile avenue to explore.
The slider works as a way of informing the Panasonic how much range you want to emulate for the tone map, so it isn't a set it and forget it option. But you may find a balance between it and the JVC DTM that works well for you. Probably just going to take a lot of experimentation with a wide range of content to see how it performs with different levels of material.
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post #18989 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The slider works as a way of informing the Panasonic how much range you want to emulate for the tone map, so it isn't a set it and forget it option. But you may find a balance between it and the JVC DTM that works well for you. Probably just going to take a lot of experimentation with a wide range of content to see how it performs with different levels of material.
Thanks for the reply, Kris.

When it was announced, I was naively hoping that JVC's DTM would be the end of fiddling with projector settings, and while it does a much better job than anything I've experienced before, as yet, I still feel the need to tweak things at times (although less than before).

I will be doing the experimentation over the next little while, to see if I can get that balance between DRS and DTM to minimize the tweaking that needs to be done.

I just watched John Wick (first one), DTM on High, DRS I think was +6, possibly +7 (I have a 160" diagonal scope screen, so many square inches to fill!) - holy crap it looked great, giving me that same 'pop' that I get with my Sony 900E LED.

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post #18990 of 25264 Old 11-10-2019, 06:50 PM
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I am thinking of purchasing the JVC RS2000/NX7/N7. I was interested in the projector because I heard the black levels of the JVC are usually great and also the 3D on this projector is great. I read in some random review that the 1080p scaling to 4K is not that great i.e some anti-aliasing. Also there is possibility that the black level is not uniform (especially in the corners when viewing completely black screen).

https://hometheaterreview.com/jvc-dl...viewed/?page=2

Is there any truth to this with the current firmware etc..?
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