Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 64 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1891 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
In the UK the SONY is priced equivalently 10,000 bucks cheaper than the United States: £25,000 vs $35,000 IMO it's ridiculous! It should be $25,000 in the USA
And 16.5k in the UK.

It would alter my decision tree drastically if that were the case.

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post #1892 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 10:31 AM
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Toe, If you find an NX7 to see in the Denver area, could you let me know? I live in Lakewood. Thanks!
Keep your eye on the Denver Thread there may be an opportunity in a few weeks
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post #1893 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:00 AM
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It’s great with all the little breadcrumbs you leave Mike, not sure if everyone catches on but it’s entertaining


These are Mike’s HINT HINTS. I love them.
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post #1894 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by griffindodd View Post
This owners thread has rapidly devolved into 'All the bored guys from the anticipation thread waffling on about any old thing.' 60+ pages of bloat
Sadly, that about sums it up. Very few JVC native 4K pj's are in the wild yet due to ? Hence, we have an overwhelming majority of speculating, bloviating and boring posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of "official owners" reporting and reviewing on physical pj's in their possession.
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post #1895 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
You bet! I'll let you know when I track one down.
If I was closer to you than 3 hours I would invite you down when mine gets in. I go to Denver often enough that if I would happen to get mine I could always bring it to your place for a demo with the Denver people.
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post #1896 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post
Sadly, that about sums it up. Very few JVC native 4K pj's are in the wild yet due to ? Hence, we have an overwhelming majority of speculating, bloviating and boring posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of "official owners" reporting and reviewing on physical pj's in their possession.
Can't wait for ARROW to return with meaningful information.
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post #1897 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:21 AM
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Here is an accentuated photo of the problem on a Sony 885 ($25K projector).
Absolutely pathetic performance for a TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLAR flagship SONY projector.
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post #1898 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
And 16.5k in the UK.

It would alter my decision tree drastically if that were the case.
That's just sad, well guess I need to take a trip to the UK for my next projector.

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post #1899 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post
Absolutely pathetic performance for a TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLAR flagship SONY projector.
It isn't that bad in real life. This is an overexposed close-up to bring out the defects. I just posted it to show that even the higher end projectors aren't immune from close up defects.
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post #1900 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
What he is saying is that JVC does not have lower contrast than Sony. In fact, he is saying the opposite. The JV contrast is far superior and shows that with normal movie content. The issue is that the patterns used to measure 1%, 2%,...ANSI contrast are misleading because they bring out the lateral streaking between 100% white squares that raises the black square measurement values. While true movie content at say 10% APL rarely if ever has 100% white squares adjacent to 0% black squares.

These streaking defects don't just exist in JVCs though. Almost every Sony I have seen tested, when displaying 100% white text on 0% black yields blue tears / vertical streaks on the edges of the text. This can easily be seen in credits. It isn't easily seen from a normal seating position. Normally you have to get close to the screen to see it but it is there.

Here is an accentuated photo of the problem on a Sony 885 ($25K projector).
Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that the streaking was a potential reason for numbers like the following:



I'm certainly not worried (much) about ANSI contrast. If I read correctly, JVCs have always had worse ANSI contrast and that has been acceptable. Of course, so far we're seeing a high variability between the NX9 measurements that different people have done, so we need to wait for a higher sample size to complete testing.

It is definitely good to know that even $25k Sony projectors can suffer from streaking issues. Thank you for sharing that.

Don't get me wrong I'm much less concerned about these units after seeing the v1.17 firmware results. I just like to understand what I should expect, is it abnormal relative to previous units, and am I getting accurate information. It doesn't help that my job is about digging into technical details and finding facts. Naturally curious.
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post #1901 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post
If I was closer to you than 3 hours I would invite you down when mine gets in. I go to Denver often enough that if I would happen to get mine I could always bring it to your place for a demo with the Denver people.
Really appreciate the offer and sounds good! Either way sounds great. If you happen to swing out this way at some point soon after you get it, let me know and we can set something up. I might just pay you a visit as well. 3 hours isn't too bad.
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post #1902 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:36 AM
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Anyone in the GTA in Ontario Canada with an NX7? I really would love to see it in action 🙂

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post #1903 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:40 AM
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Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that the streaking was a potential reason for numbers like the following:



I'm certainly not worried (much) about ANSI contrast. If I read correctly, JVCs have always had worse ANSI contrast and that has been acceptable. Of course, so far we're seeing a high variability between the NX9 measurements that different people have done, so we need to wait for a higher sample size to complete testing.

It is definitely good to know that even $25k Sony projectors can suffer from streaking issues. Thank you for sharing that.

Don't get me wrong I'm much less concerned about these units after seeing the v1.17 firmware results. I just like to understand what I should expect, is it abnormal relative to previous units, and am I getting accurate information. It doesn't help that my job is about digging into technical details and finding facts. Naturally curious.
If you read through some of the old posts, JAVs had numerous photos of past JVCs with lateral streaking issues. Some vintages were worse and some were better. They are internal reflection issues and vary unit to unit.

I think that after more data comes in from more NX9s and NX7s, we will see that contrast performance is very good and typical JVC problems probably will still exist and vary depending on the unit. However, I doubt anyone will be disappointed with the actual visual performance with cinematic content.

My 385 Sony has many issues when pixel peeping. Single pixel patterns are a mess of smears, color moire, blue vertical streaking. It exhibits a slight color uniformity issue with 100% white screen. However, it throws a stunning video image and HDR looks great. None of the imaging defects seem to be visible from a normal seating distance and with normal video.

From what I can see from the photos so far, the NX9 looks great and even pixel peeping it ain't bad.
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post #1904 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:45 AM
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Keep your eye on the Denver Thread there may be an opportunity in a few weeks
do you have a link to this Denver thread?
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post #1905 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
What he is saying is that JVC does not have lower contrast than Sony. In fact, he is saying the opposite. The JV contrast is far superior and shows that with normal movie content. The issue is that the patterns used to measure 1%, 2%,...ANSI contrast are misleading because they bring out the lateral streaking between 100% white squares that raises the black square measurement values. While true movie content at say 10% APL rarely if ever has 100% white squares adjacent to 0% black squares.

These streaking defects don't just exist in JVCs though. Almost every Sony I have seen tested, when displaying 100% white text on 0% black yields blue tears / vertical streaks on the edges of the text. This can easily be seen in credits. It isn't easily seen from a normal seating position. Normally you have to get close to the screen to see it but it is there.

Here is an accentuated photo of the problem on a Sony 885 ($25K projector).
The devils advocate in me would say sure, you can see the effect on all projectors, but if it measures worse in the JVC than on those other projectors, then the JVC is doing a worse job of controlling this particular kind of thing. And it's not like black pixels and white pixels are somehow magical unicorn dust; they might be the (almost) extremes of the panel gamma but the effects of slightly lighter pixels will just be appropriately moderated. If you turn down the patch value by 1%, I guess the streaking doesn't go away?

My few viewing observations when I saw a Sony 760ES, LS10500 and JVC X7900 in split screen was that the X7900 had the lead in out and out black level in very dark scenes, that the Dynamic Iris on both the JVC and Epson could get tripped up - but not so on the Sony laser dimming (later turns out measurements showed very little benefit from the dimming in the Sony), and of all three I found the Sony to have the most shadow detail. Now these were all set up by a renowned UK calibrator in his own showroom, and if I'd had the money available I would have quite likely gone for the Sony if I'm honest. As it is, I'm a card carrying X7900 owner and love it.

I think just discounting this kind of result is wrong, and with HDR content becoming much more the norm I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more very bright frames with very bright things next to very dark things (watched the new Star Trek series episode 1 on Netflix the other day, I felt like my eyeballs had been assaulted!)

It is quite possible, perhaps, that in spite of worse internal optical performance with respect to streaking the NX9 image end up overall more pleasing because of the tone mapping being that much more advanced. Or perhaps the wider colour gamut you get and the resulting pop works takes you over. Or perhaps the better native contrast trumps all because the frames you really do notice are the lowest ADL - and we're not there yet in terms of our "calibration" of what test results really matter for image quality.

Last point on this; if you could control everything else, and just improve on the streaking, would you have a better image? The answer is provably yes as the streaking is visible with the naked eye; so the reporting of and pursuit of improvement in this aspect has to be a worthwhile enterprise, though not to be blown out of proportion

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post #1906 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 12:26 PM
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The devils advocate in me would say sure, you can see the effect on all projectors, but if it measures worse in the JVC than on those other projectors, then the JVC is doing a worse job of controlling this particular kind of thing. And it's not like black pixels and white pixels are somehow magical unicorn dust; they might be the (almost) extremes of the panel gamma but the effects of slightly lighter pixels will just be appropriately moderated. If you turn down the patch value by 1%, I guess the streaking doesn't go away?

Spoiler!


Last point on this; if you could control everything else, and just improve on the streaking, would you have a better image? The answer is provably yes as the streaking is visible with the naked eye; so the reporting of and pursuit of improvement in this aspect has to be a worthwhile enterprise, though not to be blown out of proportion

Yes that's what I'm getting at. I want to know the details, and we will in due time. I understand the "it still looks great" sentiment, but the NX5 probably "still looks great" so why didn't I save a few thousand and just get that? Heck... I'm sure even one of the JVC e-shift projectors "still looks great" so why didn't I buy one of those over a year ago when I first started researching these things? It certainly would have saved me a lot of time to just get the X590R that WireCutter recommended and get over the hurdle of paying more than $3k for a projector that "still looks great" rather than really caring about the details and waiting for something that truly meets my standards.

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post #1907 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:03 PM
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The devils advocate in me would say sure, you can see the effect on all projectors, but if it measures worse in the JVC than on those other projectors, then the JVC is doing a worse job of controlling this particular kind of thing. And it's not like black pixels and white pixels are somehow magical unicorn dust; they might be the (almost) extremes of the panel gamma but the effects of slightly lighter pixels will just be appropriately moderated. If you turn down the patch value by 1%, I guess the streaking doesn't go away?

My few viewing observations when I saw a Sony 760ES, LS10500 and JVC X7900 in split screen was that the X7900 had the lead in out and out black level in very dark scenes, that the Dynamic Iris on both the JVC and Epson could get tripped up - but not so on the Sony laser dimming (later turns out measurements showed very little benefit from the dimming in the Sony), and of all three I found the Sony to have the most shadow detail. Now these were all set up by a renowned UK calibrator in his own showroom, and if I'd had the money available I would have quite likely gone for the Sony if I'm honest. As it is, I'm a card carrying X7900 owner and love it.

I think just discounting this kind of result is wrong, and with HDR content becoming much more the norm I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more very bright frames with very bright things next to very dark things (watched the new Star Trek series episode 1 on Netflix the other day, I felt like my eyeballs had been assaulted!)

It is quite possible, perhaps, that in spite of worse internal optical performance with respect to streaking the NX9 image end up overall more pleasing because of the tone mapping being that much more advanced. Or perhaps the wider colour gamut you get and the resulting pop works takes you over. Or perhaps the better native contrast trumps all because the frames you really do notice are the lowest ADL - and we're not there yet in terms of our "calibration" of what test results really matter for image quality.

Last point on this; if you could control everything else, and just improve on the streaking, would you have a better image? The answer is provably yes as the streaking is visible with the naked eye; so the reporting of and pursuit of improvement in this aspect has to be a worthwhile enterprise, though not to be blown out of proportion
I agree with you. I think that all projector manufacturers should strive to be as defect free as possible. I also don't think you can just dismiss the low contrast figures for the 2% - 20% APL range. I would like to see JVC strive to improve this issue with future projectors.

However, it doesn't seem that Arrow-AVs measurements are out of range from unit to unit variance with older model eshift projectors. So I don't expect the contrast performance to be much different and that seems to be confirm from visual observations of normal video content.

Also note that this isn't a new issue and exists with Sony's as well but manifests itself a little differently. Vertical blue streaks rather than horizontal white streaks.

I think that all projectors are going to have compromises. The key is that the final result is better when watching normal video. So far, everyone has said that the NX9 throws a spectacular image. I will see for myself soon and see how it compares to a very good Sony 385 projector.
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post #1908 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:03 PM
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Great stuff! But where is the info on the poor mans JVC N5?
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Wonder who’s gonna be the first to receive their NX5 here in the states?

Hopefully me . I’m ready baby!
Rumor has it, late this week early next there is a bunch of all units coming into the USA. Well see.......

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post #1909 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:17 PM
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Rumor has it, late this week early next there is a bunch of all units coming into the USA. Well see.......
I'm hearing the same thing from my local dealer that I ordered an NX7 from.

1) JVC DLA-NX7 & Sony 65Z9D, Yamaha CX-A5200, Outlaw Audio 7900 & 7700, UDP-203, DP-UB9000, UBP-X800M2, Roku Ultra
2) Sony 75Z9D, Yamaha RX-A3080, 2xOutlaw Audio 2200s, UDP-203, UBP-X800M2, Roku Ultra
3) Sony 75X940E, Yamaha RX-A2080, UDP-203, UBP-X800M2, Roku Ultra
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post #1910 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:31 PM
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Really? I'd have to stab myself in the eyes every time I watch something off Amazon Prime or Netflix on the 820 as it can only play back all that lovely UHD WGC 24p content at 60p - there is no native 24p playback of streamed content.
Why do you want 24 fps over 60fps? I have an A4k through my OPPO and considering the Panny to do my tone mapping problem. Now you have me worried. (RS-640)

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post #1911 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:31 PM
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I agree with you. I think that all projector manufacturers should strive to be as defect free as possible. I also don't think you can just dismiss the low contrast figures for the 2% - 20% APL range. I would like to see JVC strive to improve this issue with future projectors.

However, it doesn't seem that Arrow-AVs measurements are out of range from unit to unit variance with older model eshift projectors. So I don't expect the contrast performance to be much different and that seems to be confirm from visual observations of normal video content.

Also note that this isn't a new issue and exists with Sony's as well but manifests itself a little differently. Vertical blue streaks rather than horizontal white streaks.

I think that all projectors are going to have compromises. The key is that the final result is better when watching normal video. So far, everyone has said that the NX9 throws a spectacular image. I will see for myself soon and see how it compares to a very good Sony 385 projector.
I should have added that of course the ADL measures are interesting points of data; but it isn't a given that the lower ADL measurement is the better image. These are quite cleverly crafted, but ultimately a bit blunt.

An example we can all visualise here. If you imagine your JVC streak "energy" in the image, and half it. Now instead of that energy being spread out over the area of black from the center of the screen outwards; concentrate it all into a much more compact, brighter streak. It would still measure 50% better, but may well be much more noticeable on screen.

Anyway, really interesting times as the details of this new family unfold and we can try and figure out what works and what is of benefit. So far it sounds like the user testimonials are that in spite of contrast being measurably worse by all measures against the eShifters that the end result on screen is significantly upgraded. I don't think it means the measures are flawed, just that our relative weightings of them may be flawed and perhaps there are other useful measures out there that we're yet to figure out that we could do with measuring.
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post #1912 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:35 PM
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do you have a link to this Denver thread?


Here you go
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-ar...1374226?page=9


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post #1913 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:44 PM
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Why do you want 24 fps over 60fps? I have an A4k through my OPPO and considering the Panny to do my tone mapping problem. Now you have me worried. (RS-640)
(apologies if any of the following is telling you something you already know, I'm not sure exactly which bit you're unsure about).

The 4K UHD content on Netflix etc is (almost exclusively) 24fps in origin. If you play it back at 60fps you can only achieve this by playing back 2 frames of one original frame followed by 3 frames of the following original frame and so on. This is a progressive variant of the "telecine" conversion that film based content had to go through to turn it into 59.94i NTSC video and is pretty horrid. Some settings and processing options in the projector can attempt to revert the 2-3 cadence (a so called "inverse telecine" process, where you lock on to the 3-2 sequence and turn it back into the original frames and timing) but it's not a great idea to rely on this as it's not always robust, and can bring other compromises.

Now I notice a lot of folk in the States don't seem as bothered by motion issues as they've grown up with this 2-3 frame / field cadence being just the way stuff looks - it has been done like that for half a century or more I think. But us Europeans have never really had to put up with it - 24fps content that made their way to TV over here were usually just sped up a little bit and played back 2-2 at 50i. We just got to watch the movies a little bit quicker!
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post #1914 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:51 PM
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That's just sad, well guess I need to take a trip to the UK for my next projector. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
I meant that is the price it would have to be for me to buy it. It is cheaper over here, but not by that much.

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post #1915 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:52 PM
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The devils advocate in me would say sure, you can see the effect on all projectors, but if it measures worse in the JVC than on those other projectors, then the JVC is doing a worse job of controlling this particular kind of thing. And it's not like black pixels and white pixels are somehow magical unicorn dust; they might be the (almost) extremes of the panel gamma but the effects of slightly lighter pixels will just be appropriately moderated. If you turn down the patch value by 1%, I guess the streaking doesn't go away?

My few viewing observations when I saw a Sony 760ES, LS10500 and JVC X7900 in split screen was that the X7900 had the lead in out and out black level in very dark scenes, that the Dynamic Iris on both the JVC and Epson could get tripped up - but not so on the Sony laser dimming (later turns out measurements showed very little benefit from the dimming in the Sony), and of all three I found the Sony to have the most shadow detail. Now these were all set up by a renowned UK calibrator in his own showroom, and if I'd had the money available I would have quite likely gone for the Sony if I'm honest. As it is, I'm a card carrying X7900 owner and love it.

I think just discounting this kind of result is wrong, and with HDR content becoming much more the norm I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more very bright frames with very bright things next to very dark things (watched the new Star Trek series episode 1 on Netflix the other day, I felt like my eyeballs had been assaulted!)

It is quite possible, perhaps, that in spite of worse internal optical performance with respect to streaking the NX9 image end up overall more pleasing because of the tone mapping being that much more advanced. Or perhaps the wider colour gamut you get and the resulting pop works takes you over. Or perhaps the better native contrast trumps all because the frames you really do notice are the lowest ADL - and we're not there yet in terms of our "calibration" of what test results really matter for image quality.

Last point on this; if you could control everything else, and just improve on the streaking, would you have a better image? The answer is provably yes as the streaking is visible with the naked eye; so the reporting of and pursuit of improvement in this aspect has to be a worthwhile enterprise, though not to be blown out of proportion
There is no streaking on my RS4500. I had a bit on my RS600. But none on the RS4500 at all. Just FYI.
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post #1916 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Drem View Post
That makes sense There is no way of "hiding" this digitally?
On the Sony 4K pjs you have the possibility to use the whole panels resolution (4096 pixels), it might be possible on the JVC N series no ?
The pj then does an upscale from 3860 to 4096.
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post #1917 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Rumor has it, late this week early next there is a bunch of all units coming into the USA. Well see.......
They will still need to go through JVC QC checks. That takes time. Maybe they can hire some TSA agents on sick leave to help.
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post #1918 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by danam View Post
On the Sony 4K pjs you have the possibility to use the whole panels resolution (4096 pixels), it might be possible on the JVC N series no ?
The pj then does an upscale from 3860 to 4096.
Yes and yes.

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post #1919 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
They will still need to go through JVC QC checks. That takes time. Maybe they can hire some TSA agents on sick leave to help.
And here I thought AVS Forum was JVC QC
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post #1920 of 17845 Old 01-15-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ajax-jp View Post
And here I thought AVS Forum was JVC QC

More like a QC peanut gallery !
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