Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 71 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2101 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 05:52 PM
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Without trying to be a downer even if the E-shift is corrected to display at least as good as the previous version. The NX9 cannot accept an 8k source. Hell....we all crave good high-bitrate HDR 4k now. So strike that for several years either way.

As far as the difference in contrast is concerned?... if you have 1 avg light on in an avg room size you have essentially negated the spec’ed differences.

If you have to have the best, have the %100 price difference for an potentially correctable 8k internal only shifter, with a theoretic 15-20% contrast improvement under perfect conditions, displaying the right APL scenes... I say do it.

Otherwise the NX7 should be good for everyone else.

Better HDR performance is possible by shifting the dynamic range upwards, but the 300 lumens max on avg screens won’t add up to too much pop for sure.

I hope I am wrong but it does not look that way.
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post #2102 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Silly question - can I measure (reliably) ANSI contrast using a Spyder 5 pro meter and is there a free software to do that.

Now I am very curious about my NX7


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No. Measuring ANSI even with a pro meter is extremely difficult which is why I take 99.9% of measurements for ANSI with a massive grain of salt.

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post #2103 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DennisLJacob View Post
Is there a current consensus on whether or not the NX9 or NX7 have major performance differences? What are they producing compared to each other. Is the NX9 lens producing enough performance to justify twice the price of the NX7? I think everyone is discounting any possible benefit of the 8k eshift of the NX9. Or that it might actually do more harm than good. I'd really like to know these answers. It is sh.t or get off the pot time. Or pick one side of the fence to fall off on. Put up or shut up as some would say.

I know a lot of folks haven't seen either of these projectors in the wild. So this may be difficult to answer right now, today. I haven't seen any of them either.
There can't really be a concensus yet because practically no one has an NX9 and an NX7.

But based on performance specs the NX9 has slightly better native contrast, slightly better dynamic contrast, is sharper due to superior lens, and has 200 lumens more light output. For myself, I chose the RS3000 because of the superior lens.

Last edited by rboster; 01-16-2019 at 08:11 PM.
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post #2104 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 06:06 PM
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There can't really be a concensus yet because practically no one has an NX9 and an NX7.

But based on performance specs the NX9 has slightly better native contrast, slightly better dynamic contrast, is sharper due to superior lens, and has 200 lumens more light output. For myself, I chose the RS3000 because of the superior lens. Also the pre-order pricing was just too incredible to turn down.
This was exactly why I went RS3000 over RS2000 also. Mainly lens, next was slightly better contrast, next was 200 lumens. I keep forgetting it has 8k eshift its not a feature I cared about and always assumed it would be turned off. I don't know anyone that points to 8k eshift as why they care about the RS3000.

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post #2105 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
No. Measuring ANSI even with a pro meter is extremely difficult which is why I take 99.9% of measurements for ANSI with a massive grain of salt.
What kind of ANSI contrast does the RS4500 put out? That seems to pop on all scenes like crazy to me.

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post #2106 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 06:12 PM
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I agree no one can be sure yet..,but without discussing preorder pricing directly...


I am on the side of the fence that spending any more than 20% more $$ over a NX7 will not show up as a linear 1:1 improvement on the screen. The chassis change and lens is there so bulbs can disappear next year or soon.

JVC touts the lens as being outfitted to resolve 8k hence the reference, I am of the same opinion that EShift should be off.

There is a price for everyone “diminishing returns” and all that.

They are all great.
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post #2107 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 06:16 PM
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I think it is in the high 200’s or low 300 range. However, I think the MTF of the unit is really what drives that pop. The RS4500 is just a very well rounded piece. Excellent unit.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
No. Measuring ANSI even with a pro meter is extremely difficult which is why I take 99.9% of measurements for ANSI with a massive grain of salt.
What kind of ANSI contrast does the RS4500 put out? That seems to pop on all scenes like crazy to me.
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post #2108 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
What kind of ANSI contrast does the RS4500 put out? That seems to pop on all scenes like crazy to me.
I don't think it is the ANSI contrast that provides that pop. I think a lot of it is color volume. It seems to me that laser projectors are able maintain colorspace over a wide range of luminance. Whereas most bulb projectors just have large colorspace around gamma of 2.4 or so.
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post #2109 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
What kind of ANSI contrast does the RS4500 put out? That seems to pop on all scenes like crazy to me.
I am going by memory, but I think it is around 270.
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post #2110 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Silly question - can I measure (reliably) ANSI contrast using a Spyder 5 pro meter and is there a free software to do that.

Now I am very curious about my NX7


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I used the Spyder 5 really just to correct the JVCs' gamma droop using Autocal. You'll need a good glass meter for other measurements.

In the meantime, I know it's not scientific, but you can still use your eyes; see if stuff looks okay or washed out. But if you're my age, a meter may be better.
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post #2111 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 06:55 PM
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Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread

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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I used the Spyder 5 really just to correct the JVCs' gamma droop using Autocal. You'll need a good glass meter for other measurements.



In the meantime, I know it's not scientific, but you can still use your eyes; see if stuff looks okay or washed out. But if you're my age, a meter may be better.


Hehe ... I am not much of a videophile more of an audiophile


After being tortured with a borrowed Optoma HD23 to tide me over till NX7 arrives ... I was thinking hey this PJ does not throw a terrible picture (Stockholm Syndrome? :-) )

Long way of saying I wouldn't trust my eyes either

Is there someplace I can rent a meter and which meter should I get?

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post #2112 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:05 PM
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Things are finally moving for us in the US. Just got word from my dealer that my RS3000 is shipping from AZ today. I should have a firm delivery date showing soon. Dealer is estimating either a Friday or Monday delivery.
Oh we are finally getting somewhere.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehotaone View Post
I agree no one can be sure yet..,but without discussing preorder pricing directly...


I am on the side of the fence that spending any more than 20% more $$ over a NX7 will not show up as a linear 1:1 improvement on the screen. The chassis change and lens is there so bulbs can disappear next year or soon.

JVC touts the lens as being outfitted to resolve 8k hence the reference, I am of the same opinion that EShift should be off.

There is a price for everyone “diminishing returns” and all that.

They are all great.
Without a doubt but one item "being worth" a cost is different from person to person. You only get one go around on this planet, live it the way you like
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post #2113 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
I think it is in the high 200’s or low 300 range. However, I think the MTF of the unit is really what drives that pop. The RS4500 is just a very well rounded piece. Excellent unit.
The RS4500 is just a weird machine. It has bad contrast but great blacks - and that's coming from me who couldn't even keep a Sony 675ES because it had "poor" blacks, and who also thinks the RS640 with dynamic iris disabled has "just ok" blacks but not good blacks. It has "just ok" ANSI contrast but seems to really pop. It measures only 200 more lumens on mid than my RS640 did, but it seems "very very bright" compared - especially on games. It almost makes me just want to throw out all measurements in the future.

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post #2114 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:09 PM
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You're welcome to come down to Hillsboro if you want to see an RS4500
That would be awesome! I would love to do that some time.

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post #2115 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:16 PM
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My RS3000 tracking finally updated and it looks like next Tuesday is my delivery day. It's a bit of a wait but at least it is moving!

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post #2116 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:18 PM
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JVC Japan has just updated the marketing blurb for the new projectors to include a new section on Auto-tone mapping in conjunction with the new Panasonic DP-UB 9000 UHD player. This player is basically a 820 in an oppo like case.

Essentially the Japanese text says that there are two new settings on the Panasonic player, High bright Projector (emphasizes highlights) and basic bright Projector (emphasizes color reproduction) that are designed to specifically work in conjunction with JVC auto tone mapping.

...

Decoding what this means I would guess than the Panasonic player sends meta data to the JVC when these modes are on which results in correct settings in the JVC so it doesn't screw things up..


Edit:
The title implies this, but it is unclear in the blurb if it means that that the Auto tone mapping in the JVC was developed in conjunction with Panasonic (ie same algorithm when dealing with HDR10) or the settings in the Panasonic was developed to work with the JVC (I'm guessing the later) it is possible I guess that the Panasonic can use HDR10+ and maybe DV metadata to further improve the tone mapping)

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post #2117 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:18 PM
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My RS3000 is coming tomorrow, but I'm in Southern California.
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post #2118 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
If you can get a demo of Sony, JVC and Epson projectors in the same room fully calibrated and split screen so you can see two projectors at a time on the same screen side by side, that's the only real way you can decide which is the best machine for you - that's how I've been comparing projectors for many years now and it's by far the best way to do it because it takes out so many variables. The differences in real terms are a lot smaller than many would think. Uncalibrated demos won't help much because then there are too many variables.

Not many people here have done that or can do that, so often you're relying on an individuals preference and opinion.

When I saw the new N5, I was surprised how close the Epson 9300 was in performance for example - when fully calibrated, it's very hard to tell the difference between eshift projectors and native 4K projectors (colours and greyscale look pretty much identical). it's things like black levels that usually stand out the most, but there are other elements than can make the image look 'better'. For example, the guys with the JVC 4500 laser projector will tell you how much they prefer the image to the lamp based eshift models due to the cleaner more stable image despite the reduced contrast, and people with other laser models from the likes of Sony and Epson will say much the same. One guy with an N5 on pre order cancelled his order after seeing an Epson laser demo (also fully calibrated) directly after the N5 demo for example, so specs etc don't tell the who story. You really have to see them.

On the other hand, if you haven't seen any of the new models, whatever you get will give you an image you will be more than happy with, but you won't know the subjective value - you may be able to get something that for you represents better value or performance for your money.
For triple the money (an extra $4,000) you would expect a pretty extreme difference. It proves that at a certain point you start paying thousands for differences that look dramatic on paper but to the human eye aren't very different.
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post #2119 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadeRF View Post
My RS3000 tracking finally updated and it looks like next Tuesday is my delivery day. It's a bit of a wait but at least it is moving!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmonier View Post
My RS3000 is coming tomorrow, but I'm in Southern California.
Yes, finally! Monday here in Seattle. My wife and kids will see my attention this weekend
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post #2120 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple X View Post
JVC Japan has just updated the marketing blurb for the new projectors to include a new section on Auto-tone mapping in conjunction with the new Panasonic DP-UB 9000 UHD player. This player is basically a 820 in an oppo like case.

Essentially the Japanese text says that there are two new settings on the Panasonic player, High bright Projector (emphasizes highlights) and basic bright Projector (emphasizes color reproduction) that are designed to specifically work in conjunction with JVC auto tone mapping.

...

Decoding what this means I would guess than the Panasonic player sends meta data to the JVC when these modes are on which results in correct settings in the JVC so it doesn't screw things up..


Edit:
The title implies this, but it is unclear in the blurb if it means that that the Auto tone mapping in the JVC was developed in conjunction with Panasonic (ie same algorithm when dealing with HDR10) or the settings in the Panasonic was developed to work with the JVC (I'm guessing the later) it is possible I guess that the Panasonic can use HDR10+ and maybe DV metadata to further improve the tone mapping)
Were they talking about the option to switch between the 4 display peak nit level types? Or is it sound something new and not included with current 820 firmware? The text of the website would seem to be the latter, so im curious if an update is on the way for the 820, or if this will be a 9000 feature.

Wonder if this an optimizer option?

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post #2121 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
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Were they talking about the option to switch between the 4 display peak nit level types? Or is it sound something new and not included with current 820 firmware? The text of the website would seem to be the latter, so im curious if an update is on the way for the 820, or if this will be a 9000 feature.
No this is a new "Auto-tone map projector mode" with two sub options for high or basic brightness. The 9000 is very very expensive and features things like balanced stereo audio outputs that very few people will ever use. it's their answer to the 205. I would assume that the same features will be in a more reasonably priced player soon.

The 2018 line up of players available in the rest of the world are not available in japan.
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post #2122 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:49 PM
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Honestly, I think measurements are great and all but the true test is if the image your unit puts out is pleasing in the aspects you value. Usually measurements can help confirm why a particular unit has a pleasing image. In my opinion, it is something about a laser image that is pleasing to the eye for me. It could be a certain saturation or luminance.


Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
I think it is in the high 200’s or low 300 range. However, I think the MTF of the unit is really what drives that pop. The RS4500 is just a very well rounded piece. Excellent unit.
The RS4500 is just a weird machine. It has bad contrast but great blacks - and that's coming from me who couldn't even keep a Sony 675ES because it had "poor" blacks, and who also thinks the RS640 with dynamic iris disabled has "just ok" blacks but not good blacks. It has "just ok" ANSI contrast but seems to really pop. It measures only 200 more lumens on mid than my RS640 did, but it seems "very very bright" compared - especially on games. It almost makes me just want to throw out all measurements in the future.
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post #2123 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:55 PM
 
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No this is a new "Auto-tone map projector mode" with two sub options for high or basic brightness. The 9000 is very very expensive and features things like balanced stereo audio outputs that very few people will ever use. it's their answer to the 205. I would assume that the same features will be in a more reasonably priced player soon.

The 2018 line up of players available in the rest of the world are not available in japan.
Here is the panasonic link.

https://panasonic.jp/bdplayer/produc...r.html#mapping
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post #2124 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Were they talking about the option to switch between the 4 display peak nit level types? Or is it sound something new and not included with current 820 firmware? The text of the website would seem to be the latter, so im curious if an update is on the way for the 820, or if this will be a 9000 feature.

Wonder if this an optimizer option?
I just found the corresponding Panasonic page

There talking about two options under" HDR Display Type". Options are OLED, High brightness projector, basic projector, Bright LCD, Mid LCD, basic LCD. Panasonic says the two projector options "work in conjunction with JVC projectors"

Does the 820 have these too?
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post #2125 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 08:06 PM
 
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I just found the corresponding Panasonic page

There talking about two options under" HDR Display Type". Options are OLED, High brightness projector, basic projector, Bright LCD, Mid LCD, basic LCD. Panasonic says the two projector options "work in conjunction with JVC projectors"

Does the 820 have these too?
No. The 820 goes from OLED to Bright LCD. I checked the 9000/820 support page and current update was from 11/Oct/2018.

So this be something fresh.

I copied your info into the 820 thread, should cause some discussion.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...l#post57451652


9000/820 support

http://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/.../bd/index.html

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post #2126 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 08:09 PM
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The Panny 9000 is a faux balanced output player that doesn't play SACD discs. It is a "poser" in my book regarding the "hi-end audio" side of the player. Video performance is supposed to be the same as the UB820 at half the price.

Edited to rephrase my poser statement to reflect my meaning to the audio side of the equation. The video side is fine and dandy.

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post #2127 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Purple X View Post
JVC Japan has just updated the marketing blurb for the new projectors to include a new section on Auto-tone mapping in conjunction with the new Panasonic DP-UB 9000 UHD player. This player is basically a 820 in an oppo like case.

Essentially the Japanese text says that there are two new settings on the Panasonic player, High bright Projector (emphasizes highlights) and basic bright Projector (emphasizes color reproduction) that are designed to specifically work in conjunction with JVC auto tone mapping.

...

Decoding what this means I would guess than the Panasonic player sends meta data to the JVC when these modes are on which results in correct settings in the JVC so it doesn't screw things up..


Edit:
The title implies this, but it is unclear in the blurb if it means that that the Auto tone mapping in the JVC was developed in conjunction with Panasonic (ie same algorithm when dealing with HDR10) or the settings in the Panasonic was developed to work with the JVC (I'm guessing the later) it is possible I guess that the Panasonic can use HDR10+ and maybe DV metadata to further improve the tone mapping)
@Purple X I have posted your comment in the ub9000 owners thread, incase anyone has explored this side of things, I dont have a jvc n series to comment

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...l#post57451720
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post #2128 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple X View Post
I just found the corresponding Panasonic page

There talking about two options under" HDR Display Type". Options are OLED, High brightness projector, basic projector, Bright LCD, Mid LCD, basic LCD. Panasonic says the two projector options "work in conjunction with JVC projectors"

Does the 820 have these too?
No, the UB820 only has one Projector setting (500 nits). I think that the High Brightness Projector setting equates to 500 nits and the Basic to 350 nits in the UB9000.

Interesting that JVC recommends having the UB9000 tone map in HDR output mode and let the JVC apply its auto tone mapping to complete the process, instead of setting the UB9000 in SDR/BT2020 mode.


Update: Corrected Basic Projector target to 350 nit.
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Last edited by claw; 01-18-2019 at 07:46 AM.
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post #2129 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 08:13 PM
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Of course cause I just ordered the 820. Is the UB9000 even available in the USA?
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post #2130 of 13115 Old 01-16-2019, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
Of course cause I just ordered the 820. Is the UB9000 even available in the USA?
through robert at VE, a special us order just through him. I believe its quite back ordered.

I find it fascinating this combination of work between jvc and panasonic. I knew there was a reason I bought a ub9000
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