Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 73 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2161 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I don't think so because the native has remained about the same. I am going to test this same way on the 885ES this weekend. I didn't test it with that one before. It just shows that even a single pixel influences the black floor on the Sony laser model(s). I would have expected it to take more than a single pixel in a native contrast measurement. Now if full black had changed drastically (way lower than before, so higher contrast) and this happened, I would say they were working to make it test better, and there would be a benefit in that for full black scenes when you are not using the dynamic dimming.

Arrow tested this with the NX9 and there was no difference between full black and single pixel. I am going to do the same test on a 4500 next week hopefully.
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'm sure this has to be optically almost impossible to not be the result of some kind of additional panel blanking / panel drive change / laser power change - or much less likely given it is you an unexpected issue with the input mode or test image having a raised floor.

Just think about what that single white pixel represents in the sea of blackness.
Say 56 nits peak white; 20,000:1 contrast; Black level 0.0028 nits (NOT EXACT NUMBERS, this is a thought experiment).
56/9,000,000 = 0.000006nits averaged over the whole screen.

Something else...
The fact that there is an immediate significant drop in both the Native ON/OFF Contrast and Limited Dynamic ON/OFF Contrast with single-pixel-on-full-field-black, means that there is partial shutoff of of the light engine in response to full field black... which is either a fudge to artificially inflate those particular technical performance figures for 'marketing purposes' () which would include most reviews wherein the reviewer does not think to measure using single-pixel-on-full-field-black in order to ensure that there is no jiggery-pokery going on... OR it is an attempt to improve the black levels with full field black (only) in the instances wherein the Full Dynamic contrast is not enabled... HOWEVER, given the only slight increase in contrast the difference in black levels probably won't be perceivable by most people, so personally IMO it's the former

It is worth noting that the 'TRUE' contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES without this fudge actually measures on par with the SONY 885/760ES. Hence, inflating these figures in this regard with respect to full field black (only) creates the illusion that the SONY 995/870ES measures slightly higher contrast performance versus the SONY 885/760ES, when the reality is that with respect to the 'TRUE' performance, it does not... Coincidence?

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post #2162 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 02:51 AM
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Very wise choice..
Interesting. Guess I need to checkout the Sony 760ES sooner. Still awaiting local stock of the NX7/NX9 to view.

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post #2163 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 02:55 AM
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Ceiling mount for the N7?

Hi,
I'm seriously contemplating replacing my X30 with an N7. I'll need to replace my existing ceiling mount, & looking at a Peerless PRG-UNV. Is there anything else I need, ie adapter plates,etc?

I want to get it as flush to the ceiling as possible.

thanks.
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post #2164 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mickb1965 View Post
Hi,
I'm seriously contemplating replacing my X30 with an N7. I'll need to replace my existing ceiling mount, & looking at a Peerless PRG-UNV. Is there anything else I need, ie adapter plates,etc?

I want to get it as flush to the ceiling as possible.

thanks.
prg-unv all you need I’ve seen many mounted pretty close to ceiling this way 🙂
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post #2165 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
Interesting. Guess I need to checkout the Sony 760ES sooner. Still awaiting local stock of the NX7/NX9 to view.
Very keen myself to see the NX7..
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post #2166 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Very keen myself to see the NX7..
if do get hold of one, be very interesting what think of it woofer especially vs nx9
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post #2167 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
You don't know how much that makes me smile.....

I have sounded like a broken record on these forums with similar comments in reference to the Z1 ....it great to see that response from another user, and a "New" user/owner at that.
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The RS4500 is just a weird machine. It has bad contrast but great blacks - and that's coming from me who couldn't even keep a Sony 675ES because it had "poor" blacks, and who also thinks the RS640 with dynamic iris disabled has "just ok" blacks but not good blacks. It has "just ok" ANSI contrast but seems to really pop. It measures only 200 more lumens on mid than my RS640 did, but it seems "very very bright" compared - especially on games. It almost makes me just want to throw out all measurements in the future.
On the one hand, I understand where you both are coming from. 'Real-world' performance is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak!

But on the other hand, without some type of objective analysis, how are potential buyers going to decide between purchasing an NX7 over an NX5, or an NX9 over any NX7, or even a Z1 over the NX9??

Simply relying on any Projector owner to report, "Man, this looks great!" is of no use whatsoever to me, or others, as potential buyers, especially since most of these have not been in a position to do controlled, side-by-side comparisons with other Projectors.

And if the various specifications, and their actual measurements, do not correlate well with that 'real-world' performance, then we're really up the creek.

The only remaining way to provide objective data for buyers would then by fully controlled, calibrated, brightness-matched, side-by-side comparisons, of the various Projectors, done by competent folks like @ARROW-AV , @Kris Deering , etc., who would be among the extremely rare group of people with the talent, skills, tools, and opportunity to perform such comparisons.

And even then, quantifying their observations, which are ultimately subjective, is also problematic. Perhaps if they could include some type of double-blinded polling by home theater enthusiasts they could invite over, to try and assess whether those differences are consistently observable, along with their characterizations of the differences they're seeing, we might get some legitimate basis for decision making.
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post #2168 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by danlw2 View Post
@BruceJK - Thanks for the NX7 impressions! I have one little test I'd like you to try and report back on. I don't know if you have a CIH setup, but can you save your current lens position into a lens memory, then adjust the zoom, shift, focus to another spot, save that to a second memory, and tell the projector go to back to its first memory? I'm wondering how close it gets to a saved position.

I recently had a chance to play around with an Epson 6040UB, and after several attempts, it didn't seem to want to automatically return to the exact same position we saved. I'm curious to know how the JVC lens memory performs in regards to how closely it returns to saved lens memories. I run CIH, so this function is very important to me.

Thanks!
I’ve never had a projector get this right. Always some fine tuning after engaging preset. Even more so with those of us with drop down screens since the black painted borders don’t absorb overspill as well as fixed screen velvet borders.
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post #2169 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
On the one hand, I understand where you both are coming from. 'Real-world' performance is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak!

But on the other hand, without some type of objective analysis, how are potential buyers going to decide between purchasing an NX7 over an NX5, or an NX9 over any NX7, or even a Z1 over the NX9??

Simply relying on any Projector owner to report, "Man, this looks great!" is of no use whatsoever to me, or others, as potential buyers, especially since most of these have not been in a position to do controlled, side-by-side comparisons with other Projectors.
I'm not suggesting at all that we throw out measurements and replace them with "looks great to me". I'm suggesting that since the RS4500 looks so great with mediocre measurements, perhaps whatever things we are measuring aren't actually the things we should be measuring. I will say that when the RS4500 dynamic dimming is in place, it really is dimming the hell out of the blacks and I'm sure that can be measured. Specifically, I bet if you enable iris / dimming on both to max dimming performance and you measure say interstellar 53:30 black level on a sony 695ES and on an RS4500 that the RS4500 will have the lower black level. That can be measured and quantified. But supposedly the 695ES contrast measurement is better on the Sony. I don't know maybe it isn't. I feel like the RS4500 gets both brighter and darker than the 675ES ever did.

Looking forward to Arrow's comparison thread perhaps that can explain some of it.

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post #2170 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I'm not suggesting at all that we throw out measurements and replace them with "looks great to me". I'm suggesting that since the RS4500 looks so great with mediocre measurements, perhaps whatever things we are measuring aren't actually the things we should be measuring. I will say that when the RS4500 dynamic dimming is in place, it really is dimming the hell out of the blacks and I'm sure that can be measured. Specifically, I bet if you enable iris / dimming on both to max dimming performance and you measure say interstellar 53:30 black level on a sony 695ES and on an RS4500 that the RS4500 will have the lower black level. That can be measured and quantified. But supposedly the 695ES contrast measurement is better on the Sony. I don't know maybe it isn't. I feel like the RS4500 gets both brighter and darker than the 675ES ever did.

Looking forward to Arrow's comparison thread perhaps that can explain some of it.
Perhaps my wording was a bit harsh, and for that I apologize.

And I agree, if the various specifications do not correlate with real-world performance, then we somehow need to come up with other types of measurements that do. Otherwise, all we have to rely on is subjective observations, which can be less than useful, given the various cognitive biases that all us humans are subject to, most often without our knowledge or awareness!

I have reposted what I said in the new comparison thread, and like you and all the rest of us, will be anxiously waiting to see what is found there.
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post #2171 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
You dont know how much that makes me smile.....

I have sounded like a broken record on these forums with similar comments in reference to the Z1 ....it great to see that response from another user, and a "New" user/owner at that.
Yep, you, Craig, Kris, Arrow, myself and others.
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post #2172 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Specifically, I bet if you enable iris / dimming on both to max dimming performance and you measure say interstellar 53:30 black level on a sony 695ES and on an RS4500 that the RS4500 will have the lower black level. That can be measured and quantified. But supposedly the 695ES contrast measurement is better on the Sony. I don't know maybe it isn't. I feel like the RS4500 gets both brighter and darker than the 675ES ever did.
What you've outlined there is specifically what those Projection Dream ADL patterns should measure. I'd wager the Z1 looks so good in low level scenes because it's sporting that higher contrast in low APL content, so it'll be very interesting what Nigel measures on these. I'd wager it has that increased pop in brighter scenes because the laser delivers greater colour volume.

Last edited by Wookii; 01-17-2019 at 07:33 AM.
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post #2173 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I'm not suggesting at all that we throw out measurements and replace them with "looks great to me". I'm suggesting that since the RS4500 looks so great with mediocre measurements, perhaps whatever things we are measuring aren't actually the things we should be measuring. I will say that when the RS4500 dynamic dimming is in place, it really is dimming the hell out of the blacks and I'm sure that can be measured. Specifically, I bet if you enable iris / dimming on both to max dimming performance and you measure say interstellar 53:30 black level on a sony 695ES and on an RS4500 that the RS4500 will have the lower black level. That can be measured and quantified. But supposedly the 695ES contrast measurement is better on the Sony. I don't know maybe it isn't. I feel like the RS4500 gets both brighter and darker than the 675ES ever did.

Looking forward to Arrow's comparison thread perhaps that can explain some of it.
As it happens, I experienced something similar with respect to a different new projector for which I recently completed a review, wherein I ended up developing a method by which the dynamic contrast could be measured throughout the 1% - 20% ADL in order to hopefully explain what I was subjectively seeing with my own eyes. In short, the black levels were/are significantly better than you would expect from solely the ON/OFF and ANSI contrast measurements. And it was only when I measured the full range including the dynamic contrast for the whole 1% - 20% ADL range that this revealed comparatively very high performance with this range dynamically, which completely explained what I was seeing.

It is quite possible that something similar in this regard is going on with the JVC RS4500/Z1. It will be very interesting to see whether or not this is the case, once I take the full range of measurements, which I intend on doing soon

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post #2174 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
What you've outlined there is specifically what those Projection Dream ADL patterns should measure. I'd wager the Z1 looks so good in low level scenes because it's sporting that higher ADL contrast, so it'll be very interesting what Nigel measures on these. I'd wager it has that increased pop in brighter scenes because the laser delivers greater colour volume.
Not quite... Those patterns can only be used to measure Native Contrast performance, not Dynamic Contrast; because they are black and white and hence won't encapsulate the dynamic contrast related gamma modulation that is used to expand the dynamic range and hence contrast

However, I have developed a method by which you can indeed measure the full ADL range with respect to Dynamic contrast; wherein, I will be taking measurements for both Native and Dynamic Contrast for the whole range of ON/OFF, 1% - 20% ADL through to and including ANSI

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post #2175 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Right so it sort of says a lot about our measurements in my opinion. The purpose of the measurements isn't just to have them but to actually see them regarding performance. Perhaps I've just never seen what impact good ANSI contrast has. Why does the Z1 pop more than the RS640 if its not that? The light output isn't that much higher to explain it either. Someone else suggested overall sharpness might make the image appear to pop more. But m 675ES was very sharp and supposedly had higher ANSI than my RS640 but the RS640 popped more. I always assumed it was contrast. But perhaps it's some other aspect to the video that is so pleasing.

I can at least understand why the Z1 has good blacks - because the dynamic dimming is so good it gets the black floor low when it needs to. I think if Sony 675ES was more aggressive about its iris usage and actually used it to lower the black floor like this, I would have kept it. It's great that I never saw the iris pumping, but I guess that's just because it didnt really do that much.

I feel like whatever the JVC Z1 is doing that's so pleasing should be measurable. And there should be a regular measurement pattern / test for that. Are its contrast measurements in the 10% and 20% APL ranges really good or something?
With dynamic dimming, from Kris Deering:

"For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:

0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1"
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post #2176 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 07:56 AM
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This a great thread.

However, um, has there been an NX5 sighting yet, and does anyone know their eta?
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post #2177 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Willie View Post
This a great thread.

However, um, has there been an NX5 sighting yet, and does anyone know their eta?
I don't think any of those have arrived to any customers in the US, yet, just a few RS2000/NX7's and RS3000/NX9's.
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post #2178 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 08:08 AM
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Right so it sort of says a lot about our measurements in my opinion. The purpose of the measurements isn't just to have them but to actually see them regarding performance. Perhaps I've just never seen what impact good ANSI contrast has. Why does the Z1 pop more than the RS640 if its not that? The light output isn't that much higher to explain it either. Someone else suggested overall sharpness might make the image appear to pop more. But m 675ES was very sharp and supposedly had higher ANSI than my RS640 but the RS640 popped more. I always assumed it was contrast. But perhaps it's some other aspect to the video that is so pleasing.
There is something about laser that makes it stand out over lamp based projectors, especially when doing split screen comparisons, but it's difficult to put your finger on what exactly - as you say, it's not necessarily something that measurement data provides. A cleaner less noisy and more stable image is one big part of it for me though. Perhaps how our eyes see the laser spectrum vs how we see a lamp based spectrum also has something to do with, but that's just a guess. I've often seen people say "there's something about the colour" yet everything is calibrated to look much the same.

As you say, good measurements/graphs are nice to have and useful for comparisons to give us some informative performance data, but it's the actual image that is important, and calibration data won't show you all the image attributes. As you've pointed out, you have to see the pjs in action to ascertain that.

With respect to blacks etc - I can remember the first time I saw a Sim2 C3X many years ago (3 chip 720 DLP) and although it measured less contrast than the Optoma H78 I had at the time, the C3Xs blacks looked far better. I do think it has something to do with how bright an image is and how our eyes behave at certain levels of brightness because it can change (mesopic, photopic, scotopic). I know you say that there isn't much difference between the 4500 and the 640s light output, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was - assuming both are calibrated, the 640 would have dimmed over time whereas the 4500 remains pretty stable (were you able to measure them?). I haven't done the same testing as Kris Deering, but I also can't really say for sure that we ever really see any real benefits to high ANSI CR in most normal video content, but if we were, the difference would have to be much greater than just 50:1 (250:1 vs 300:1 is visibly nothing in real terms for example). CRTs had very low ANSI, especially the air couple lenses where you would see haloing and streaking that was a lot worse than any of the LCD based techs of today (LCoS, LCoQ etc), so owners would often try to swap them for liquid coupled lenses. That improved things but the ANSI was still low. Given the choice, I think most people will choose a high on/off, low ANSI display over a high ANSI, low on/off display.

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I can at least understand why the Z1 has good blacks - because the dynamic dimming is so good it gets the black floor low when it needs to. I think if Sony 675ES was more aggressive about its iris usage and actually used it to lower the black floor like this, I would have kept it. It's great that I never saw the iris pumping, but I guess that's just because it didnt really do that much.

I feel like whatever the JVC Z1 is doing that's so pleasing should be measurable. And there should be a regular measurement pattern / test for that. Are its contrast measurements in the 10% and 20% APL ranges really good or something?
With the JVCs, the lamp based models add noise to the image - not everybody notices it, but it's there and it's something that isn't measurable but can make a big difference to the image. Laser projectors don't seem to have that, so the image appears cleaner and more stable - lamp output also isn't stable and is constantly varying, albeit to a small degree, but perhaps that makes a difference too. Add that to the laser vs lamp spectrum difference (assuming that is a perceptible difference) and then that does seem to make quite a lot of differences between laser and lamp that aren't represented in measurement/calibration data.

I don't know many people personally who have projectors, but those that I do have all had split screen demos and most of them chose a laser. It does seem to add something to the image, and I'd really like to see JVC add that to the N5 range - imagine all of their projectors having an image that is closer to the 4500 than the current range.

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post #2179 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 08:13 AM
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I don't think any of those have arrived to any customers in the US, yet, just a few RS2000/NX7's and RS3000/NX9's.
If you're allowed to say...any idea when larger numbers are going to ship out. Seems like they shipped a very small number and then stopped.
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post #2180 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 08:28 AM
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This a great thread.

However, um, has there been an NX5 sighting yet, and does anyone know their eta?
No sightings in any country. The other units hit Europe first, not sure if that will be the case on the NX5/RS1000. Either way I was told large shipment coming in by the end of next week....
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post #2181 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 08:41 AM
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If you're allowed to say...any idea when larger numbers are going to ship out. Seems like they shipped a very small number and then stopped.
No stopped. On the RS side, JVC manufactured and shipped 3000's first. Then they started on the 2000's and 1000's, so one or both of those will be coming next.
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post #2182 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
No sightings in any country. The other units hit Europe first, not sure if that will be the case on the NX5/RS1000. Either way I was told large shipment coming in by the end of next week....
I would not say they hit Europe first. JVC Europe released to customers quicker than JVC USA.
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post #2183 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
No sightings in any country. The other units hit Europe first, not sure if that will be the case on the NX5/RS1000. Either way I was told large shipment coming in by the end of next week....
In other words, nothing definitive . . . my Panamorph is getting lonely.
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post #2184 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Willie View Post
In other words, nothing definitive . . . my Panamorph is getting lonely.
To keep it from getting depressed, you may have to start spending some time with it, to let it know it is appreciated.
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post #2185 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
With dynamic dimming, from Kris Deering:

"For my calibrated viewing (17 fL) using the laser in mid power, aperture at -8, near long throw and with the dynamic dimming activated in mode 2:

0=67K:1
1%=20K:1
2%=10K:1
3%=6300:1
4%=3500:1"
I didn't do those with gamma based patterns like I have now. I also don't remember if that is before or after the improvements made to the laser dimming.
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post #2186 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I didn't do those with gamma based patterns like I have now. I also don't remember if that is before or after the improvements made to the laser dimming.
Posted January 16th 2017, so pretty sure before improvements.
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post #2187 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Willie View Post
In other words, nothing definitive . . . my Panamorph is getting lonely.
I'm sure this whole situation is just as frustrating for the dealers as it is for customers. I think the situation is greatly worsened by the fact that JVC users distributors. The distributors sell thousands of products, so to them these projectors are just one those, and they are not terribly concerned about providing information to waiting dealers. Every distributor I have ever dealt with works the same way...they will say something is on backorder and then bam it shows up one day. There is never any communication from them about how long the backorder will take, or any periodic updates. Honestly, I don't know why in this digital age any manufacturer (especially of high value goods) would use distributors...they eat margin and they generally do not serve the interest of the manufacturer or customer very well because rather than taking time/effort to communicate issues they will rather sell something else to someone else.....Rant over...
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post #2188 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
The RS4500 is just a weird machine. It has bad contrast but great blacks - and that's coming from me who couldn't even keep a Sony 675ES because it had "poor" blacks, and who also thinks the RS640 with dynamic iris disabled has "just ok" blacks but not good blacks. It has "just ok" ANSI contrast but seems to really pop. It measures only 200 more lumens on mid than my RS640 did, but it seems "very very bright" compared - especially on games. It almost makes me just want to throw out all measurements in the future.
I had to laugh reading this. It's true. The RS4500 just punches way above it's specs on paper. Some of us early owners kept saying that. I'm looking forward to seeing what Lumagen's dynamic HDR tone mapping brings to the table ! An even better picture !
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post #2189 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jmonier View Post
My RS3000 is coming tomorrow, but I'm in Southern California.
We will expect a full report by Sunday!

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post #2190 of 19149 Old 01-17-2019, 09:45 AM
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So the NX7 brightness specs measure below both the RS540 and RS520?

Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
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