Official JVC RS3000/NX9 - JVC RS2000/NX7/N7 - JVC RS1000/NX5/N5 - Owners Thread - Page 769 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23041 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
@bobof



Good recap. Here are some relevant contrast measurements from the calibration thread for the current models (from my rs2000 with 30 hours on the lamp at the time, it has 865 hours now).



Apparently the rs3000 has much higher on/off with the DI, and no blooming artifacts of the highlights (most likely due to the different iris mechanism), which makes it a significant improvement over the rs2000 in this area, especially for those who wish to use the DI in HDR (manual iris fully open).


Having owned the NX7 for a year can I just say that between the blooming and the Yellow DI, dynamic iris on this PJ is worth horse’s excreta. Totally useless if you have to keep the manual Iris any wider than-7




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post #23042 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 06:37 AM
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Hi mate. Give this ago - I used it for the same thing. https://vac.cinema-tools.com/#!/
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post #23043 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
As a fellow photographer, I've also attempted to understand the physics here. But enough people here, who in my estimation really know what they're talking about, confirm that the greatest contrast is at the longest throw, while the greatest brightness is at the shortest throw, so I accept these as facts that I need to understand.

One factor that seems relevant is that at the farther throw distance, the light will be utilizing more of the central, and less of the peripheral, part of the lens, where the optical quality will be the greatest. To what extent this might account for the increased contrast, I'm not sure. And if the analogy with a variable aperture telephoto zoom lens is valid, then the effective aperture will be smaller at the longer throw distance as well. In a telephoto lens, the smaller aperture would result in a greater depth of field, but I'm not sure if or how this is relevant here.

So while I still don't have a precise understanding of what exactly accounts for the apparent increase in contrast at the longer throw distance, I've seen this often enough in reputable sources that I'm reasonably confident that this is, in fact, the case.
That is the general line of thinking, but think about this. All lenses have imperfections. At longer throw, the image (pixels) are smaller. So more pixels will be hitting a defect in the lens at longer throw, vs shorter throw, since the pixels will be larger and farther apart at shorter throw.
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post #23044 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Scurly View Post
Finally installed my new JVC RS2000 on a ceiling mount today - went from a Sony HW55ES and the transition was better than expected. Set up was in record time and the picture absolutely blows my mind. Wife and kids were in awe of PQ. the color, contrast and blacks....are amazing in HDR.

Thanks to Mike Garrett of AVS for helping out and providing the right equipment.

Next is an ISF calibration for the final touch. I am not a tweeter at all!

Thanks Mike.
As per the recommendation I sent you. Kris Deering is making a tour in your state, so I would see about getting on his list.
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post #23045 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 07:06 AM
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Next is an ISF calibration for the final touch. I am not a tweeter at all!
List of calibrators below, including the national list......

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Okay, so speaking of ISF calibration....

I am not the guy to do this myself at all, no way, never! Any recommendations in Houston? Just call the Geek squad? They seems to be okay in the past.
I do not think I have every heard of the Geek Squad doing a good calibration like the guys below....

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post #23046 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
@bobof

Good recap. Here are some relevant contrast measurements from the calibration thread for the current models (from my rs2000 with 30 hours on the lamp at the time, it has 865 hours now).
Thanks @Manni01 - I didn't directly reference your results as a) I wasn't sure how the lay of the land was with referencing it (politics) and b) that as there are neither other zoom settings or ADL measures they weren't that useful for making my points

If I'm honest I was also still scratching my head a little over the lack of difference between manual -10 and -15 for on/off contrast, which I think must go back in some part to a hazy previous conversation around the accuracy of the black measures as it seems unlikely that there really isn't an on/off benefit from going from -10 to -15. Though of course I'm basing my surprise on my X7900, which has a large difference measured between -10 and -15. It is possible there is something about the RS2000 which means there isn't a measurable change in contrast between those two settings.
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post #23047 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 07:24 AM
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Black floor is not a concern for me because I'm not using a high gain screen.

My 0.93 gain painted screen (a 50/50 mix of flat white latex paint and silver acrylic paint) has allowed me to forego masking because the black bars are so much darker than the actual image as to not be noticeable during movies.

The black floor is only visible when there is no image on the screen. Hit "Hide" and it's faintly visible after my eyes accommodate to the darkness.

For me, the most important issue is getting a bright enough image, which I'm happy with right now, running my RS1000 on high lamp and high DTM with the iris wide open, 15' 9" from the screen at maximum image size, with the Lens Control Grid being 6' 1" tall and 11' 4" wide.

My main tweak is merely turning Aspect to Auto for 16:9 and 4:3 images to avoid cutting off image, and to Zoom for anything 1.85 and wider. (I know the cutoff should be 1.89, but I can live with losing 1.05% of the image (3/4" on my 73" tall screen) at the top and bottom.

I do have a secondary Installation Mode to shrink the image a bit and move its top back up to the ceiling, for when I have a tall friend over to watch a non-scope film, to avoid hair-shadows.
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post #23048 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Philnick View Post
Black floor is not a concern for me because I'm not using a high gain screen.

My 0.93 gain painted screen (a 50/50 mix of flat white latex paint and silver acrylic paint) has allowed me to forego masking because the black bars are so much darker than the actual image as to not be noticeable during movies.

The black floor is only visible when there is no image on the screen. Hit "Hide" and it's faintly visible after my eyes accommodate to the darkness.
I must say your comments on the matter continue to intrigue me as I have a similar gain screen (perhaps even less, it's AT woven) and probably more native contrast owing to X7900 vs RS1000 yet the black bars are visible to me very quickly in lots of content if I don't mask.
You mention the gain of the screen as a factor - this should only help improve reduce the raising of the black level due to the room reflections - it doesn't help with the internal pollution of the bars due to content.

Do you know how bright your image is in nits measured from your seating position? It sounds like your room is properly black - if you turn off the projector, can you see your hand at all in front of your face?
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post #23049 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by maf113 View Post
1. Those devices may output 4096 but they still require a source device to play the content. I am looking for some type of player that supports and outputs 4096 x 2160.
All "4k" consumer home media is authored in UHD format, 3840x2160. Any device that might output that as 4096x2160 would have to upscale it. The JVC projectors are equally capable of upscaling 3840x2160 to 4096x2160 with no visible artifacts or downsides, so you don't really gain anything by making the source device do it.

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post #23050 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I must say your comments on the matter continue to intrigue me as I have a similar gain screen (perhaps even less, it's AT woven) and probably more native contrast owing to X7900 vs RS1000 yet the black bars are visible to me very quickly in lots of content if I don't mask.
You mention the gain of the screen as a factor - this should only help improve reduce the raising of the black level due to the room reflections - it doesn't help with the internal pollution of the bars due to content.

Do you know how bright your image is in nits measured from your seating position? It sounds like your room is properly black - if you turn off the projector, can you see your hand at all in front of your face?
And unless the projector is in a total black pit, there is always enough light reflection to make the bars visible.
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post #23051 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 07:57 AM
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And unless the projector is in a total black pit, there is always enough light reflection to make the bars visible.
The OP doesn't notice the black bars. That doesn't mean they aren't noticeable. Even in a velvet black pit of a room there will be some individuals who can perceive the black bars.

The RS4500 is the closest to having imperceptible black bars IMHO.

The only way to not have the black bars is to project a scope image onto the appropriately matched scope screen.

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post #23052 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
The OP doesn't notice the black bars. That doesn't mean they aren't noticeable. Even in a velvet black pit of a room there will be some individuals who can perceive the black bars.

The RS4500 is the closest to having imperceptible black bars IMHO.

The only way to not have the black bars is to project a scope image onto the appropriately matched scope screen.

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The higher end E-shift JVC's (RS600,620 & 640) had the lowest black floor. Much better than the 4500. The 4500 has the fade to total black advantage.
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post #23053 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 08:46 AM
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I finally have my NX7 up and going. Running a DES 120" screen. Latest firmware. Picture out of the box is awesome, how much extra can be had by having it professionally calibrated? Any quick suggestions on changing the factory settings?
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post #23054 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 08:49 AM
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Hi Guys,

Just wondering how many of you have Apple TV+ and if you do are you finding many of the programs dark on your nx5/nx7 even on high lamp and high DTM. Thanks!

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post #23055 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Having owned the NX7 for a year can I just say that between the blooming and the Yellow DI, dynamic iris on this PJ is worth horse’s excreta. Totally useless if you have to keep the manual Iris any wider than-7

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And having owned it for 10 months I use Auto2 all the time and haven't noticed any issues (and HDR is -3 / Auto2). Could easily be unit variance or the owner, but I still encourage people to try it for themselves before dismissing the dynamic iris.
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post #23056 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The higher end E-shift JVC's (RS600,620 & 640) had the lowest black floor. Much better than the 4500. The 4500 has the fade to total black advantage.
The black floor is great when the projector is “projecting black”. However, the black bars are limited by the intra-scene contrast, which is only around 300:1 even in a bat cave. I don’t understand how anyone can “find them not noticeable”.

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post #23057 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The black floor is great when the projector is “projecting black”. However, the black bars are limited by the intra-scene contrast, which is only around 300:1 even in a bat cave. I don’t understand how anyone can “find them not noticeable”.
I agree. I have a very good room and have had many projectors in there, LCD, DLP, LCOS, DLP laser, LCOS laser, including the RS4500 and RS640 and black bars show up easily. But the 4500 was clearly not as good as the 640, when it comes to black bars. 4500 was so much better at everything else, though.

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post #23058 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
All "4k" consumer home media is authored in UHD format, 3840x2160. Any device that might output that as 4096x2160 would have to upscale it. The JVC projectors are equally capable of upscaling 3840x2160 to 4096x2160 with no visible artifacts or downsides, so you don't really gain anything by making the source device do it.
So does the projector upscale automatically or is there a setting I am missing that needs to be set to do so?

I know about the zoom in the aspect setting but that increases both the vertical as well as the horizontal image. If the projector is already doing 2160 for the vertical why would going to 4096 also increase the vertical aspect?

I am just trying to understand. This is my first projector and the ability to display full 4k was not the sole deciding factor in my purchase. I just want to make sure I am taking full advantage of this device.
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post #23059 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Thanks @Manni01 - I didn't directly reference your results as a) I wasn't sure how the lay of the land was with referencing it (politics) and b) that as there are neither other zoom settings or ADL measures they weren't that useful for making my points

If I'm honest I was also still scratching my head a little over the lack of difference between manual -10 and -15 for on/off contrast, which I think must go back in some part to a hazy previous conversation around the accuracy of the black measures as it seems unlikely that there really isn't an on/off benefit from going from -10 to -15. Though of course I'm basing my surprise on my X7900, which has a large difference measured between -10 and -15. It is possible there is something about the RS2000 which means there isn't a measurable change in contrast between those two settings.
Yes I'm aware it doesn't help re zoom or APL, but it's some relevant info for the current models.

Re the politics, my understanding is that it's fine to repost the information as I did, not to link to it.

Re the difference between -10 and -15, it has nothing to do with the accuracy of the black measurement because both the T10 and the Discus are within their accuracy range and I don't have the same results depending on the calibration. Both the Discus and the T10 are able to measure reliably with the DI on (i.e. much lower black levels), so they really have no problem measuring black with the DI off in any calibration.

For some reason, in my SDR DCI-P3 calibration, closing the iris lower than -10 doesn't yield any on/off improvement (though I see the iris closing further and both white and black measurements go down).

I just did a quick test as I had my Discus out and it goes roughly like this: open 30,000:1, -5 40,000:1, -10 50,000:1 and -15 roughly the same. I measured -12, it's also around -51,000:1. Use correctly, the Discus is usually close to my Minolta T10, so at least they agree with each other.

It could be due to the use of the filter as it does increase native on/off. I did all my contrast and brightness measurements in SDR DCI-P3 (low lamp, filter) because that's the calibration I use for UHD Blurays tonemapped by madVR (hence the most relevant for me from a PQ point of view, as that's what I watch most by far).

I ran a few measurements in SDR Rec-709 (low lamp, no filter) and it gives more usual results, with a more significant different between -10 and -15:

Open 25,000:1, -5 33,000:1, -10 41,000:1 and -15 45,000:1.

As you can see, the calibration (especially filter / no filter, but also possibly the gamut used) has an impact on the measured native on/off.

Before you ask, black is set properly in both calibrations, so that's the optimal results in both picture modes.
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post #23060 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 10:18 AM
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I just want to make sure I am taking full advantage of this device.
Careful, grasshopper... that is rabbit hole you really don't want to jump into. Unless you have an unlimited budget.
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post #23061 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
What you're describing doesnt change the contrast. Lower black floor, equally lower white peak equals same contrast. The iris changing contrast has to do with light scatter, I think. I imagine the zoom contrast relationship has to do with using more of the center of the lens and less reflection due to it. I'm not an mechanical engineer so I cant say what specifically.
On my JVC and CIH set-up using the zoom method, I am using the max long throw and zoom to achieve a 9 foot wide image for scope. However, with 16:9 content, and the iris fully closed down, the contrast ratio is still not quite as good as the larger scope setting (which has the iris opened up a few clicks to achieve the same ftL on 1080p), but it is brighter (relative to its image size). So, I can achieve a lower black floor with my scope setting, but cannot with 16:9. I never thought about the center of the lens and light scatter. I also use a small amount of lens shift, so maybe that factors into it as well.

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post #23062 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by maf113 View Post
So does the projector upscale automatically or is there a setting I am missing that needs to be set to do so?



I know about the zoom in the aspect setting but that increases both the vertical as well as the horizontal image. If the projector is already doing 2160 for the vertical why would going to 4096 also increase the vertical aspect?



I am just trying to understand. This is my first projector and the ability to display full 4k was not the sole deciding factor in my purchase. I just want to make sure I am taking full advantage of this device.


You can use stretch in the installation mode setting. It’s the last setting in the Installation panel


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post #23063 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 10:30 AM
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Careful, grasshopper... that is rabbit hole you really don't want to jump into. Unless you have an unlimited budget.
Not unlimited but do have some disposable $ to improve my experience.
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post #23064 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 10:46 AM
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Not unlimited but do have some disposable $ to improve my experience.
Down the rabbit hole, Alice.

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https://www.panamorph.com/home-theater-lens-systems/ for use with a 2:35, 2:39 , 2:40 scope screen.



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post #23065 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by maf113 View Post
So does the projector upscale automatically or is there a setting I am missing that needs to be set to do so?

I know about the zoom in the aspect setting but that increases both the vertical as well as the horizontal image. If the projector is already doing 2160 for the vertical why would going to 4096 also increase the vertical aspect?

I am just trying to understand. This is my first projector and the ability to display full 4k was not the sole deciding factor in my purchase. I just want to make sure I am taking full advantage of this device.
3840x2160 equals an aspect ratio of 16:9 (1.78:1).
4096x2160 equals an aspect ratio of 17:9 (1.89:1).

There is no way to upscale from 3840x2160 to 4096x2160 while maintaining the original aspect ratio. The only possible options are to do a linear zoom which will fill the width of the panel but crop some image from the top and bottom, or you can stretch it. Most people would consider stretching undesirable.

In the projector's Installation Mode menu is a setting for Aspect. "Auto" will display a 3840x2160 image as 3840x2160. The extra width of the projector's panel will be projected as black pillarbox bars. "Zoom" is a linear zoom that will magnify the image to fill the width of the panel, cropping some picture from the top and bottom.

If the movie/show you're watching has an aspect ratio of exactly 16:9, "Auto" is the most appropriate setting. If you're projecting onto a 16:9 screen, "Auto" is also the most intuitive default for everything. Just set the projector's optical zoom to let the pillarbox bars spill over the sides of the screen onto the screen border or your wall.

However, if you have a wider screen and the content is letterboxed to an aspect ratio wider than 1.89:1, "Zoom" will give you a little added brightness while only losing some of the letterbox bars. Those of us with 2.35:1 Constant Image Height screens find this useful.
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post #23066 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Yes I'm aware it doesn't help re zoom or APL, but it's some relevant info for the current models.

Re the politics, my understanding is that it's fine to repost the information as I did, not to link to it.

Re the difference between -10 and -15, it has nothing to do with the accuracy of the black measurement because both the T10 and the Discus are within their accuracy range and I don't have the same results depending on the calibration. Both the Discus and the T10 are able to measure reliably with the DI on (i.e. much lower black levels), so they really have no problem measuring black with the DI off in any calibration.

For some reason, in my SDR DCI-P3 calibration, closing the iris lower than -10 doesn't yield any on/off improvement (though I see the iris closing further and both white and black measurements go down).

I just did a quick test as I had my Discus out and it goes roughly like this: open 30,000:1, -5 40,000:1, -10 50,000:1 and -15 roughly the same. I measured -12, it's also around -51,000:1. Use correctly, the Discus is usually close to my Minolta T10, so at least they agree with each other.

It could be due to the use of the filter as it does increase native on/off. I did all my contrast and brightness measurements in SDR DCI-P3 (low lamp, filter) because that's the calibration I use for UHD Blurays tonemapped by madVR (hence the most relevant for me from a PQ point of view, as that's what I watch most by far).

I ran a few measurements in SDR Rec-709 (low lamp, no filter) and it gives more usual results, with a more significant different between -10 and -15:

Open 25,000:1, -5 33,000:1, -10 41,000:1 and -15 45,000:1.

As you can see, the calibration (especially filter / no filter, but also possibly the gamut used) has an impact on the measured native on/off.

Before you ask, black is set properly in both calibrations, so that's the optimal results in both picture modes.
Fair enough, sounds more like something is going on at the peak white end then. If the colour temp is changing radically for optical reasons from -10 to -15 it is possible you lose all the benefit, though that would be surprising. It seems most likely something in the calibration tables / CMS is robbing you of some of the peak white. It's hard to see the filter being in circuit for both causing a different effect between -10 and -15.

If you were interested to look at it to work out if the calibration / CMS is robbing you the best option would be profile off with the filter flicked in manually and just the high bright colour temp gains adjusted to D65 for peak white at both -10 and -15. At least on the old series that should kill anything that is in the calibration tables.

It sounds like it would be academic for you anyway as -15 isn't a useful iris setting for you anyway with your screen, so probably best not to waste your time and watch something instead!
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post #23067 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 12:21 PM
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Fair enough, sounds more like something is going on at the peak white end then. If the colour temp is changing radically for optical reasons from -10 to -15 it is possible you lose all the benefit, though that would be surprising. It seems most likely something in the calibration tables / CMS is robbing you of some of the peak white. It's hard to see the filter being in circuit for both causing a different effect between -10 and -15.

If you were interested to look at it to work out if the calibration / CMS is robbing you the best option would be profile off with the filter flicked in manually and just the high bright colour temp gains adjusted to D65 for peak white at both -10 and -15. At least on the old series that should kill anything that is in the calibration tables.

It sounds like it would be academic for you anyway as -15 isn't a useful iris setting for you anyway with your screen, so probably best not to waste your time and watch something instead!
Not a calibration issue, the measurements I took today was after a restore of the INIT file, so no autocal except 100% white set to D65.

I have zero interest in investigating this, anything below -12 in SDR is entirely unusable, even with my small 88” diag 16/9 screen (and there is nothing weird in SDR anyway), and I only use fully open in HDR, so I couldn’t care less about what happens below -12.

These -15 settings are only useful to get higher specs, they are not useful in practice. I don’t know anyone who is using a recent JVC with the iris fully closed, even in SDR (with a standard peak of 50-60nits).

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post #23068 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 12:23 PM
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I must say your comments on the matter continue to intrigue me as I have a similar gain screen (perhaps even less, it's AT woven) and probably more native contrast owing to X7900 vs RS1000 yet the black bars are visible to me very quickly in lots of content if I don't mask.
You mention the gain of the screen as a factor - this should only help improve reduce the raising of the black level due to the room reflections - it doesn't help with the internal pollution of the bars due to content.

Do you know how bright your image is in nits measured from your seating position? It sounds like your room is properly black - if you turn off the projector, can you see your hand at all in front of your face?
I haven't done that experiment, but since it's a basement room with no windows, I'm pretty sure that with the projector off, and the only illumination being the red pilot light atop the JVC and the dimmed front panels of the AVR and disk player behind me and a bit below the top of my couch, the answer would be that I wouldn't be able to see my hand. If I left everything off and blocked the red pilot light on the pj, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to see my hand.

By the way, the ceiling and side walls are painted matte black from the screen wall back to the couch, and are unpainted, rough-surfaced off-white tan plaster in the rest of the room. (The black side walls are the same rough-surfaced plaster.)

Maybe your X7900 puts out more light than my RS1000 - or maybe the 0.93 gain rating from the thread at home theater shack where I got the paint recipe is inaccurate. I do know that the recipe is designed to improve the appearance of blacks - it's one of three formulations designed for different kinds of rooms: for rooms with a lot of large windows the recipe is "Black Widow" while for fully-darkenable rooms like mine there's the "Cream and Sugar Ultra" version. In between, there's a mix called "Elektra." I remember when I painted my first Cream and Sugar screen - for my 1080p Panasonic PT-AE2000 in 2008 - being impressed by how well-defined the different shades of black were on men's suits and the foam wind covers on the microphones they were speaking into - and this was on cable TV programming!

I haven't measured the actual brightness of my current image. I do feel the desire to run every setting on high to get fully-bright "glow" on special effects like in Doctor Strange and Captain Marvel.

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post #23069 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 12:49 PM
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Not a calibration issue, the measurements I took today was after a restore of the INIT file, so no autocal except 100% white set to D65.

I have zero interest in investigating this, anything below -12 in SDR is entirely unusable, even with my small 88” diag 16/9 screen (and there is nothing weird in SDR anyway), and I only use fully open in HDR, so I couldn’t care less about what happens below -12.

These -15 settings are only useful to get higher specs, they are not useful in practice. I don’t know anyone who is using a recent JVC with the iris fully closed, even in SDR (with a standard peak of 50-60nits).
I wasn't suggesting it was your calibration; the factory calibration tables are populated in the INIT state too. That would be the reason to use profile off to see if it shows where the contrast is going.

Off the top of my head I think I can only remember one; I think @Toe used to run at -15 on a high gain screen with a new lamp with a relatively recent unit (but not new series). But I could be mistaken. That was SDR though I recall.

Anyway, it is by-the-by. Those really high gain screens are not so popular now. It's just the engineer in me can't avoid the intrigue of an inconsistency.
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post #23070 of 25486 Old 02-04-2020, 01:18 PM
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Down the rabbit hole, Alice.

https://www.madvrlabs.llc/

https://www.panamorph.com/home-theater-lens-systems/ for use with a 2:35, 2:39 , 2:40 scope screen.



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