The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post


And on my screen size.... 150" Wide 2.35:1 (Equivalent to a 172" 16X9 displaying 2.35:1 content) the benefits of true 2160P are vastly evident over E-Shift.

.....and your viewing distance from your screen is?

Edit: You answered this in a following pose 1: 1.2 or less thanks!
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post #362 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by silver700 View Post
Any chance the 4K Sony’s (885,995es) will be in that comparison?? I know this is a JVC thread just asking.
We will be looking at some Sony's in comparison (I believe) - so I'll let you know what I see :-)

Never owned a projector before, which is both good and bad for you guys. The bad news is, I'm a newbie and won't know what to look for or how to explain what I saw. The good news is, I couldn't be more unbiased, I'm always honest, and I have good eyes ;-)
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post #363 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 04:09 PM
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It's really bright and seems like it would throw one heck of a good image; and yet looking at the photo linked, it seems more like a larger home television experience in a crowded room as opposed to the projection experience of a darkened theater.
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post #364 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver700 View Post
Any chance the 4K Sony’s (885,995es) will be in that comparison?? I know this is a JVC thread just asking.
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
This is NOT a JVC thread only. This thread was opened by @ARROW-AV and he will be testing all 2019 Sony and JVC models. He will also include the JVC RS540/X790, JVC Z1 and Sony 885ES. He is already in possession of the Sony 295ES, 695ES and 995ES.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57504346
Spoiler!
AND the SONY 885/760ES

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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
We will be looking at some Sony's in comparison (I believe) - so I'll let you know what I see :-)
Yup

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Never owned a projector before, which is both good and bad for you guys. The bad news is, I'm a newbie and won't know what to look for or how to explain what I saw. The good news is, I couldn't be more unbiased, I'm always honest, and I have good eyes ;-)
As long as you can see, that is all that matters...

... And don't worry, I will be showing you everything both good and bad to look for and as a consequence utterly ruin your ability to enjoy watching movies in future forever after without scrutinizing the video performance

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post #365 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes





AND the SONY 885/760ES





Yup





As long as you can see, that is all that matters...



... And don't worry, I will be showing you everything both good and bad to look for and as a consequence utterly ruin your ability to enjoy watching movies in future forever after without scrutinizing the video performance





Will you post a link to your reviews or will you be posting it here on this thread?


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post #366 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Oh there is some gray area for sure. If you are overly positive, I don't see them cracking down on you. But if you are saying they can't do something or that their performance is poor (in objective measurements), then they will definitely challenge the comments or raise hell about them. I think the most kick back I got was from the BenQ 9050 review. I ended up in an hour long sit down with the product manager and the head engineer. But it turned out that they didn't understand the issues I was talking about as much as I felt they probably should have, and they were fine with the comments as they stood after the meeting. That is why I hope the 9060 will be a noticeable improvement in some areas.







If you are talking about the publishing world, absolutely. Obviously there are a lot of blogger sites that don't submit to any scrutiny and can post whatever BS they want.







I don't think this will be a good comparison for what Dave is talking about. The 9060 doesn't have near the lumens of the models he has been raving about. I agree that this circles back to the 3-chip days with their light cannons giving far more lumens on screen and the raves of color fidelity and such. There is a LOT of content that this provides obvious benefits for and I'm sure the brighter DLPs that Dave is looking at would look pretty stunning compared to any of the Sony/JVC models with that material.



But this brings up something else. Comparisons in room are great, but you always have to take into account the fact that you don't watch material with side by side comparisons so there are many attributes that you just won't notice if you view them on their own. We adapt very well to the brightness of an image, which is why CRTs back in the day still looked amazing at even 8-12 fL. If you put a 16 fL display in the same room, people would gravitate to the brighter image, but that is because you are doing a real time comparison. If you have a room with a 14 fL image, it will look nice and bright if that is what you are used to seeing. But the black floor and near black contrast performance is noticeable regardless, even without side by side comparisons. This is where I run into problems with the DLPs and LCDs. I don't need to compare them to a JVC to notice it, it is blatantly obvious on its own. That milky gray that washes the entire low APL image making it look soft and washed out.



The Sonys have a lower contrast ratio than the JVCs, but if you are not comparing them directly in a side by side, you probably wouldn't notice it nearly as much except right at black. People that have only had Sony projectors rarely complain about contrast because it is pretty solid overall until you compare directly to something side by side. Then they think something is wrong in the settings (true story!).



Take this image for example







The one on the right looks dull because you are directly comparing it to the one on the left. But in real life you don't have the other one to compare against directly and the one on the right probably looks just fine. Our eyes are fantastic at adjusting to the world around them. If you have those two images to compare there is no doubt EVERYONE would pick the one on the left. But if you only had the one on the right in a room with nothing to compare to, people would probably say it looks fantastic so long as it wasn't REALLY dark (we don't know what the level of light is in the picture, for all we know the one on the left is 50 fL and the one on the right is 30 fL. Does anyone here think that a 30 fL image on its own looks dull and dark in a home theater environment?).







Thanks for the nice comments Dave. You and I have talked at length before and I thought we got along splendidly. I asked BenQ if they could send the model you've been raving about when they send the 9060 just so I can have a peak at it. Sounds like they may just indulge me!


Please forgive my ignorance but where will you be posting your reviews?


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post #367 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I designed my room around 2160P about 10 years ago.


So I am already at a 1.16 SW distance, and dont want to have to get to the point of me turning my head to see the whole screen.
This turning your head argument is silly. You have to get really close, and I mean *really* close to have to turn your head. Your eyeballs move, right? I can get about 5 feet from my 135" screen and still see both edges without moving my head. I sit 7 feet.
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post #368 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes


AND the SONY 885/760ES


Yup


As long as you can see, that is all that matters...

... And don't worry, I will be showing you everything both good and bad to look for and as a consequence utterly ruin your ability to enjoy watching movies in future forever after without scrutinizing the video performance

He is kidding, but there is a lot of truth to this. I can't go into a theater without analyzing everything.
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post #369 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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post #371 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
This is NOT a JVC thread only. This thread was opened by @ARROW-AV and he will be testing all 2019 Sony and JVC models. He will also include the JVC RS540/X790, JVC Z1 and Sony 885ES. He is already in possession of the Sony 295ES, 695ES and 995ES.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57504346


My mistake. I was viewing from my phone and with so many threads, I got lost in which one I was in.
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post #372 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
We will be looking at some Sony's in comparison (I believe) - so I'll let you know what I see :-)

Never owned a projector before, which is both good and bad for you guys. The bad news is, I'm a newbie and won't know what to look for or how to explain what I saw. The good news is, I couldn't be more unbiased, I'm always honest, and I have good eyes ;-)

And no offense to Kris or Arrow, but your opinion might be as important to those of us who are still deciding. Arrow and Kris have to be fair, unbiased and at times technical where you are coming in like most of us and will have an honest opinion on just what you see minus the science part.
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post #373 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 07:59 PM
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I wanted to take a couple of days before responding.

In the moment, I was very disappointed by the Javs and Woofer comments.

If I had misstated any facts or customer experiences shared here on the forums, certainly correcting me was in order.

However, calling me "insane", a "detractor", or whatever ... Why did any of my comments required an effort to label me in some derogatory fashion? What purpose does that serve, other than to marginalize?

Dismissing my comments as not being worse than other products or brands, really isn't the same as being inaccurate.

If I have recently been inclined to offer up more negative information, so long as it not be false information, why should it matter? After all, AVS is not a competition of the best positive brand or product spin, it it?

My interest and goal, is to have AVS forum readers receive as much information as possible, in order to make up their own minds and to make the most informed purchasing decision possible.

However, short of actually seeing all of the projectors on our short lists, we're all challenged to rely on information from others, including a fair accounting of both positive and negative information.

Am I conflicted by my own negative experience with JVC? Conflicted? No, I don't think so.

My experience has caused me to have trouble believing what JVC or their agents say without adequate proof. Others might argue, is JVC any better or worse than other Brands in this regard? Based on feedback from other brand customers, apparently not. But that really is a whole different global challenge for us as HT consumers.

One of these days I'll be happy to relay my negative experience with JVC and one of the dealers posting on these forums.

Spoiler!
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post #374 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
150" Wide 2.35:1 (Equivalent to a 172" 16X9 displaying 2.35:1 content) the benefits of true 2160P are vastly evident over E-Shift.
Can you go into more detail on this comment Please?
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post #378 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 09:55 PM
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Excellent, but I was waiting for someone to say, "And let the games begin."
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post #379 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 10:03 PM
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Will you post a link to your reviews or will you be posting it here on this thread?


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Maybe we need a new thread with just the reviews and conclusions and keep all the other debate, anticipation, side conversations etc here




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post #380 of 2791 Old 02-06-2019, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
One of these days I'll be happy to relay my negative experience with JVC and one of the dealers posting on these forums.
Why not relay this info? I think it might say a lot as to where you're coming from.
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post #381 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
If you don't mind Dj Dee, at what viewing ratio, screen width to viewing distance, did the benefit of 4k taper away. Was this viewing stills or motion.

Thanks.
Mostly on still images, but you saw the small details clair also in motion, and the debt might be some better and clairness. But sadly difference HD/UHD not that big. But some.

My screen 110" 16.9 ,I have now my seats 2.6m in center seat. So actually some cm to far from screen if you follow recommendations. If I go more back I actually don't see the benefit of 4K, it fade away Compared to 1080P.

Done this thest with NX9, VW260 ES and the X7900.
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post #382 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
I wanted to take a couple of days before responding.

In the moment, I was very disappointed by the Javs and Woofer comments.

If I had misstated any facts or customer experiences shared here on the forums, certainly correcting me was in order.

However, calling me "insane", a "detractor", or whatever ... Why did any of my comments required an effort to label me in some derogatory fashion? What purpose does that serve, other than to marginalize?

Dismissing my comments as not being worse than other products or brands, really isn't the same as being inaccurate.

If I have recently been inclined to offer up more negative information, so long as it not be false information, why should it matter? After all, AVS is not a competition of the best positive brand or product spin, it it?

My interest and goal, is to have AVS forum readers receive as much information as possible, in order to make up their own minds and to make the most informed purchasing decision possible.

However, short of actually seeing all of the projectors on our short lists, we're all challenged to rely on information from others, including a fair accounting of both positive and negative information.

Am I conflicted by my own negative experience with JVC? Conflicted? No, I don't think so.

My experience has caused me to have trouble believing what JVC or their agents say without adequate proof. Others might argue, is JVC any better or worse than other Brands in this regard? Based on feedback from other brand customers, apparently not. But that really is a whole different global challenge for us as HT consumers.

One of these days I'll be happy to relay my negative experience with JVC and one of the dealers posting on these forums.

Spoiler!

You have the full right to say what you think and feel.
Many people look at different things and have different preferences.

What problem and why the negative experience on JVC. And what do you like? What do you have?
I know JVC projectors quit well. Feed me with information
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post #383 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
It's really bright and seems like it would throw one heck of a good image; and yet looking at the photo linked, it seems more like a larger home television experience in a crowded room as opposed to the projection experience of a darkened theater.
I think it's about 30 or 32 feet wide. Not too small... and if you sit about 5 or 6 rows from the front, it'll look big.. of course it's nothing like an IMAX screen.

But honestly, even an IMAX super fan who watches 90% of my movies there, would say it's no contest in terms of objective picture quality. I was actually going to book the IMAX but they were only showing Alita in 2D and have not been showing 3D for a few months now... I think this is a terrible trend as cinemas stop playing 3D... so, i booked the 3D at the Onyx cinema instead. I have been there once for a 2D show and was also blown away by the image... but in 3D? It's a whole new level up for ppl who enjoy 3D.. this is the ONLY display i think that does 3D full justice...

BTW: They do close the lights so it's just like another cinema... not a TV room. A mid size screen that's currently superior to any other screens you'll see... and I have seen a dual Barco 4K laser screen as well.. that one won't even touch this...
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post #384 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Lottery ... all brands seem to offer some form of lottery. I too had a sony sxrd which never exhibited panel degrdation in my almost 7000 hours and 7+ years of ownership.

I also never experienced 60-90 minutes of warm up to achieve stable focus or convergence like some rs4500 (and maybe nx9 rs3000) owners report.

If we were to list all of the lottery items associated with manufacturer brands and specific models, it is pretty sad commentary on what manufactures are willing to deliver as a final product AND on what customers are willing to accept.
True dat!

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post #385 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
JVC nailed that one.
That said, logically, it is easier to 'nail' something when cost is no object.

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post #386 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
JVC considers the Z1 the better projector.
Imagine that..... I can see their logic...

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post #387 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Every review I’ve written has gone through a full fact check with the manufacturer. That is why I call it comical when I see people saying I’m lying or making stuff up when the review is vetted by my editor and the manufacturer fully. If I was making stuff up about the performance or features it would never fly and I wouldn’t be published. I’m pretty sure the manufacturer wouldn’t be keen on me reviewing any of their products going forward either, but that has never happened to date.
I am wondering, what happens if they disagree with something that you have checked and double checked, using your calibrated test equipment, but they still refute your findings....

..........What happens then?

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post #388 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I do wish we could all stop talking about fruit.

Let's start with that.
But, it's good for you, full of antioxidants and fibre etc.

That reminds me. I must get some lunch!

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post #389 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
TOMORROW

TODAY!!

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
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post #390 of 2791 Old 02-07-2019, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
Thanks I look forward to your observations. I usually measure the the native on the Sony every 3-6 months or so once all the degradation news came out. So far any degradation has been light. Over the last 2 years I have used the projector a bit more to keep the panel fitness up so to say. Last measure I was at 12-15k:1 native and 40-45k: 1 dynamic on 1% pattern. Below 1% apl, the iris works pretty aggressive on this sony model so I am in the 350-400k :1 at 0 ire . I use my OLED as a benchmark and so far so good. I have been using the interstellar 53:30 scene as reference for measure. If your native contrast is low that scene is tough to render well. I am looking for about 300-400 extra lumens with the RS3000 and a nice native bump on low apl material. Otherwise I am a happy camper.
I'm pretty sure if I got my hands on a 1000 or 1100ES with no panel degradation, I'd just have kept that and would still have it. I'm happy tone mapping all HDR and if the black floor is actually good, I'd probably have been satisfied.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, Infinite Baffle Subs 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 2x12 fi audio mounted in main chair firing into back.
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