The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 09:21 AM
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I thought this was the "2019 model projectors comparison" thread, not the "my projector technology is better than yours thread." I must have made a wrong turn.
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post #512 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
Thanks for sharing Dave. I for one appreciate your observations as most would have to get a unit like this sight unseen. Without Dave I more than likely would not have bought a LK970. I am glad I did because what I have now is probably my favorite unit over the past 10 years. I have probably had 30+ units over the past 15 years and only a few stand out. I think at times we get a little to caught up in hard measurements and numbers on the board. Not saying they have no importance, but to me practical viewing enjoyment trumps the #'s. In this case, Dave's observations point to increased color coverage possible through filter use. On the DLP blue lasers, that for some would be a big deal if the light output doesn't tank drastically. Maybe there will be some native contrast gains as well with these filters. Overall, I still enjoy the discussions here but sometimes the tenor/tone of the conversations and challenges are a bit disappointing at times. As a result, I definitely keep a lot more info to myself these days. If others start doing the same I think we are going to lose a wealth of knowledge on the boards.
You'll have to forgive if my tone seems direct or confrontational, I'm an incurable engineer who spends much of his day sifting through frankly BS marketing specs to find out who can actually deliver what they say and who is talking the talk but not walking the walk.

I'm all for seeing in demo rather than buying purely on numbers, at the end of the day you'll watch it, not someone else's meter. Numbers can be gamed by folk who know how to present or be blunt instruments. But factual claims are not suggestions to view, or claims of achieving pleasant results with particular content, they're facts, and sometimes I get the feeling we're living in a post-fact world these days and actually you're looked down on for daring to challenge what is being fed to you.

In this particular case Dave appears to be making quite a surprising claim for his calibration of a particular DLP projector (given the manufacturer's own specs), on the same line as something that immediately rings bells of Marketing BS ("give it a flashy name!"), and hence my meter goes off the scale. He can take that onboard or not as to whether he cares that this was my immediate involuntary response to his post; that is just honestly how it reacted in me. I'd imagine he might not care much seeing as I'm not likely his target customer, and that is fine. We all have different ways of selling ourselves and I'm not going to tell him he's wrong. He's not the only one here selling themselves, their services and their wares and that is just life online these days.

I do think though seeing as Dave is here at least in part in a self-promoting capacity of his business activities (he's reached out to me before via PM speculatively when I'd expressed some interest in a general thread on a product) it is quite legitimate to ask for surprising claims to be backed up with some evidence, and as he is here in that capacity I don't think he needs folk jumping to his defence when this is a simple question of a point of fact. As yet there hasn't actually been any confirming evidence of the claim made and we're supposed to be in a comparison thread, but I'll be very happy if it is forthcoming and be the first to congratulate if it really is hitting even full P3 within BT2020 container because it will represent something pretty interesting.

For what it's worth I've played around with filters myself a fair bit (I even have the special internal cinema filters purchased as spares from some projector models here) and the universal truth is a lot of the nits go if you have a filter which is actually capable of shifting the primaries in any significant fashion. That is why it is really interesting to see the detail of the results for the claims.
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post #513 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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This machine, with its brightness and sharpness, will be great for multi use; but your point is precisely why I'd like to demo first to gauge RBE sensitivity. I noticed, however, many who have the LK970 and posted on this forum say it's a non-issue.
Some people do not perceive the rainbow effect or are not sensitive to it. However, this does NOT mean that it is a non-issue

Personally, even if I was fortunate to be one of those who does not see it or is not sensitive to it, I would not wish to have a home theater wherein out of my friends and family whom I invite into my home theater some of these most certainly will be seeing rainbows and it will ruin their experience and enjoyment.

So when we are talking about projectors costing thousands of dollars and home theaters costing even more than this, I am sorry but the potential for rainbows is wholly unacceptable to me. Wherein, I have a particular loathing of the particular 0.67" Single-Chip DLP chipset from Texas Instruments (TI) that is being used in all these projectors. SIM2 include the same chip within their NERO4 projector that retails for 30,000 bucks, wherein the contrast is abysmal and of course it is afflicted with rainbows. I find this to be utterly ridiculous. And especially given that the phenomenon is so easily 100% eliminated entirely simply by using 3-Chip DLP chipsets instead of Single-Chip DLP.

Wherein, historically the issue has been the lack of availability of 4K 3-Chip DLP chipsets, but this is no longer the case. Recently, there has become available the native 4K 3-Chip DLP Chipset that has previously featured within cinema projectors, by Christie, Barco, and NEC; which previously was unavailable due to an exclusive license for those three companies, due to their co-financing the production of the chipset, but no longer; now anyone can purchase and use that chipset. So what I would really like to see is the likes of BENQ, as well as other projector manufacturers, such as SIM2, incorporating this chipset into their projectors, whether this is their business projectors that can be used for HT usage, or those actually designed for HT. This would eliminate the rainbow effect entirely.

Then the only other aspect that would need attending to is to make use of other technologies to boost the native ON/OFF contrast performance of these DLP chipsets.

Here's the thing... The potential of DLP exceeds that of LCoS. Wherein, if you remove rainbows out of the equation by going 3-Chip instead of Single-Chip DLP then the only remaining issue and hence the Achilles Heal is the contrast and resultant black levels performance. The ANSI is considerably higher with DLP than LCoS however ANSI in itself does not directly influence the black levels of actual video content aside from the few pixels of black directly adjacent to bright highlights. It is the particular ON/OFF contrast at the respective ADL within the range 0% - 20% that typically relates to circa 90% of video content, with the average luminance of movies being circa 10% ADL, and only circa 10% of content residing within the range 20% - 50% ADL, wherein ANSI = 50% ADL. Hence, the higher ANSI of DLP only really indirectly influences the black levels of video content, in that higher ANSI will typically mean that indirectly the measured contrast at 20% ADL will be higher, but it is the range 0% - 20% that is by far the most important; and this has been to date the reason why LCoS projector such as JVCs have been the king of contrast and black levels as far as consumer media / video content is concerned.

With respect to other areas that most influence good video image quality DLP significantly outperforms LCoS, and this includes sharpness, MTF, RGB convergence, video noise, image uniformity, and 3D performance, to name but a few. So, simply go 3-Chip DLP to eliminate the rainbows, then all that remains is to address the the Achilles Heal of poor ON/OFF contrast performance, then you will have projectors that will significantly outperform every single LCoS home theater projector currently available and in more ways than one.

Hence, high contrast performance with DLP is where DLP projector manufacturers really need to be investing their R&D resources.

We are now seeing for the first time examples of such high contrast 3-chip DLP projectors; however at the present time these are at the top of the top of the pyramid, being unaffordable by 99% of the population.

So what I would love to see would be BENQ and other home theater projector manufacturers moving beyond single chip DLP projectors with poor contrast and significantly elevated black floors, and to similarly develop home theater projectors that are both 3-Chip DLP and high contrast. All the jigaw pieces are just lying there... they only need to put them together to make home theater DLP projectors with video performance that considerably surpasses what any of these LCoS projectors are currently achieving. But as of right now, with rainbows and poor ON/OFF contrast performance these projectors are not so

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post #514 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 10:06 AM
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Hopefully that is more promising than the Christie, since I do not expect that one to trickle down in price very much.
Nor do I believe it will trickle down in a meaningful way before the display wall technologies replace projectors in the home theater setting.
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post #515 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 10:11 AM
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I’ve already said two other times, including the initial time, that when I input BT2020 100% amplitude, 100% Saturation color patterns it reaches the P3 gamut points. If you keep choosing to ignore this fact, then it is me who doesn’t get your point.

As 12GAGE said, I don’t understand the tone and tenor here. Did I do something personal to you and the drones that just repeat everything here sight unseen, to elicit this tone? Could you not respond in a nice manner with an open mind actually seeking knowledge and “science” as you put it?
I just replied to 12GAGE in the time you were writing this, I don't think I have anything to add in reply to this that isn't in that post.
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post #516 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 10:31 AM
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With respect to other areas that most influence good video image quality DLP significantly outperforms LCoS, and this includes sharpness, MTF, RGB convergence, video noise, image uniformity, and 3D performance, to name but a few. So, simply go 3-Chip DLP to eliminate the rainbows, then all that remains is to address the the Achilles Heal of poor ON/OFF contrast performance, then you will have projectors that will significantly outperform every single LCoS home theater projector currently available and in more ways than one.
Many of these issues I am sure are only really better in some 3 chip DLP machines because those machines are at that very top end of the projection tree and are small volume very heavily engineered products with very expensive optical designs; there aren't 3 chip machines being engineered to sell anywhere near the price points of the LCOS units. I'm sure if lower cost 3 chip DLPs start to be a thing the cost compromises necessary will mean things like RGB convergence, sharpness and MTF will be reduced in those products.
DLP has a lot of potential, particularly when paired with the new technologies that are sneaking into public view. They're exciting times for sure.
Just watch out for the low end product hanging on the coat tails of the ultra-high end when they eventually start shipping...
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post #517 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Nor do I believe it will trickle down in a meaningful way before the display wall technologies replace projectors in the home theater setting.
Except that is never, ever going to happen

Modular video walls are most certainly not all roses and they never will be either

The primary issues as of right now and the foreseeable future include:

(1) PRICE --> SAMSUNG The Wall prices range from $350,000 - $1.2 MILLION+ and with SONY CrystalLED (previously called CLEDIS) prices start at circa $1.5 MILLION Where in fact that 'ultimate' CHRISTIE projector, despite being expensive, in fact costs significantly less than a SAMSUNG The Wall and/or a SONY CrystalLED display of a similar size screen!

(2) AUDIO PERFORMANCE --> You have a giant non-accoustically transparent and acoustically reflective panel on your front wall... What about your audio system and audio performance? Where do you position your front soundstage LCR speakers? There are audio system design solutions to achieving great sound quality with non-acoustically transparent displays, wherein I myself have personally designed, built, and successfully tested these; however in all instances there is a very considerable cost implication and this involves replacing the entire audio system... otherwise you will be severely compromising the audio performance of your home theater... neither of which most people are agreeable to doing

(3) HEAT PRODUCTION --> These displays output A LOT of heat, but unlike projectors you cannot choose to enclose these displays or situate them outside your home theater within a climate controlled environment. They are situated on the front wall of your home theater generating as much heat directly into your room as multiple multi-kilowatt heaters!

(4) UNIFORMITY / SEAMS / PIXEL DELINEATION ISSUES --> Interpanel seams and uniformity are a huge problem that afflicts all such products. I have yet to see ANY of the MicroLED or LED video wall products wherein you can't see the seams and/or the panel structure. Furthermore, with products that have pixel pitch size larger than 1mm you can delineate the pixel structure from typical viewing distances. The individual panels also have the potential to degrade at different rates leading to exacerbation of interpanel uniformity issues over time, and requiring panels to be replaced at high cost. With SAMSUNG The Wall for instance you have to purchase 'spare' replacement panels because of this at the outset.

In short, display wall technologies with never completely replace projectors in the home theater setting. What will happen is that display walls will simply attain a share of the market, in fact a niche, and reside alongside projectors and TVs. So any talk of video walls making projectors extinct is quite simply not true

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post #518 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 10:45 AM
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I definitely understand your position bobof. I am a engineer as well for the last 20 years, my opinion is that there is a way to have these discussions in a more civil manner. No more no less. It isn't about defending a particular person, but more about civil discourse. At lot of the back and forth on the boards in the past few years has been a bit much. I have been a participant here since 2000 so I am commenting more on the change over time. Now specifically back to unit specific talk. Being an engineer, I won't post any numbers without having some justification; but that is just how I am wired. Specific to this LK970, there is nothing magical there are reasons why the image looks the way it does. In addition, other factors like content and viewing environment can contribute to some owners appreciation of this unit. I don't take any of the banter or skepticism personally because at the end of the day I can shut the computer off and go enjoy the unit. For me it provides a sharp, dynamic picture of great quality in my environment with my preferred content. You have to excuse our enthusiasm because some owners are happy with what they see and want other to share in that experience. I am about trying to help the community here. As I have stated before this unit isn't for everyone, it has it weak points like possible RBE and low apl performance. Those are facts that or either inherent in the the technical nature of single chip DLP's or can be independently verified via measurement. On the flip side, brightness, lens mtf, color gamut saturation coverage and 4%-20 % apl contrast can also be independently verified by measure. On those fronts, the unit has excellent performance.



*I don't have any axe to grind, I have a Sony VW 1100 as well and am in the market for either an RS4500 or an NX9 to go in the main theater eventually replacing the Sony. I have spoken highly of the RS4500 in the past as I see it as an outstanding unit. I will also give my honest impression of the NX9 or RS4500 if I procure either in the future.






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You'll have to forgive if my tone seems direct or confrontational, I'm an incurable engineer who spends much of his day sifting through frankly BS marketing specs to find out who can actually deliver what they say and who is talking the talk but not walking the walk.

I'm all for seeing in demo rather than buying purely on numbers, at the end of the day you'll watch it, not someone else's meter. Numbers can be gamed by folk who know how to present or be blunt instruments. But factual claims are not suggestions to view, or claims of achieving pleasant results with particular content, they're facts, and sometimes I get the feeling we're living in a post-fact world these days and actually you're looked down on for daring to challenge what is being fed to you.

In this particular case Dave appears to be making quite a surprising claim for his calibration of a particular DLP projector (given the manufacturer's own specs), on the same line as something that immediately rings bells of Marketing BS ("give it a flashy name!"), and hence my meter goes off the scale. He can take that onboard or not as to whether he cares that this was my immediate involuntary response to his post; that is just honestly how it reacted in me. I'd imagine he might not care much seeing as I'm not likely his target customer, and that is fine. We all have different ways of selling ourselves and I'm not going to tell him he's wrong. He's not the only one here selling themselves, their services and their wares and that is just life online these days.

I do think though seeing as Dave is here at least in part in a self-promoting capacity of his business activities (he's reached out to me before via PM speculatively when I'd expressed some interest in a general thread on a product) it is quite legitimate to ask for surprising claims to be backed up with some evidence, and as he is here in that capacity I don't think he needs folk jumping to his defence when this is a simple question of a point of fact. As yet there hasn't actually been any confirming evidence of the claim made and we're supposed to be in a comparison thread, but I'll be very happy if it is forthcoming and be the first to congratulate if it really is hitting even full P3 within BT2020 container because it will represent something pretty interesting.

For what it's worth I've played around with filters myself a fair bit (I even have the special internal cinema filters purchased as spares from some projector models here) and the universal truth is a lot of the nits go if you have a filter which is actually capable of shifting the primaries in any significant fashion. That is why it is really interesting to see the detail of the results for the claims.

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post #519 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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You'll have to forgive if my tone seems direct or confrontational, I'm an incurable engineer who spends much of his day sifting through frankly BS marketing specs to find out who can actually deliver what they say and who is talking the talk but not walking the walk.

I'm all for
Spoiler!
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Hey, I think it's great having the 'GAMUT POLICE' policing these forums! Keep up the good work sir!

And in all seriousness I really mean that. I think it is great keeping people in check in this regard, myself included. This is an audiovisual science forum after all!

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Many of these issues I am sure are only really better in some 3 chip DLP machines because those machines are at that very top end of the projection tree and are small volume very heavily engineered products with very expensive optical designs; there aren't 3 chip machines being engineered to sell anywhere near the price points of the LCOS units. I'm sure if lower cost 3 chip DLPs start to be a thing the cost compromises necessary will mean things like RGB convergence, sharpness and MTF will be reduced in those products.
DLP has a lot of potential, particularly when paired with the new technologies that are sneaking into public view. They're exciting times for sure.
Just watch out for the low end product hanging on the coat tails of the ultra-high end when they eventually start shipping...
Not necessarily

DLP has technological advantages over LCoS in these regards. Where for example if you look at the other end of the scale at LCoS technology projectors that are at the very top end of the projection tree and are small volume very heavily engineered products with very expensive optical designs, hence a true apples-with-apples comparison, these are very much inferior as compared with the DLP equivalents, with respect to all of RGB convergence, sharpness and MTF; and you can add image uniformity to that list as well. Where for example, compare the SONY SRX-R815P / SONY SRX-R815DS with an equivalent 3-Chip DLP cinema projector and you will find that whilst the SONY wins with respect to ON/OFF contrast performance, the DLPs win with respect to all of RGB convergence, sharpness, MTF and image uniformity, and it is not even close...

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post #521 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 11:26 AM
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Not necessarily

DLP has technological advantages over LCoS in these regards. Where for example if you look at the other end of the scale at LCoS technology projectors that are at the very top end of the projection tree and are small volume very heavily engineered products with very expensive optical designs, hence a true apples-with-apples comparison, these are very much inferior as compared with the DLP equivalents, with respect to all of RGB convergence, sharpness and MTF; and you can add image uniformity to that list as well. Where for example, compare the SONY SRX-R815P / SONY SRX-R815DS with an equivalent 3-Chip DLP cinema projector and you will find that whilst the SONY wins with respect to ON/OFF contrast performance, the DLPs win with respect to all of RGB convergence, sharpness, MTF and image uniformity, and it is not even close...

Interesting. I've not knowingly seen those particular products to compare, so I'm sure you're right, but why do you think that is? I mean, particularly with RGB convergence - surely it is all about just getting those panels mechanically aligned? There isn't an obvious difference other than competency of the implementation? Or is there some non-obvious difference with the optical path requirements that just means the DLP 3 chip setup is easier to get everything into correct positions? Intrigued.
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post #522 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 11:39 AM
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So when we are talking about projectors costing thousands of dollars and home theaters costing even more than this, I am sorry but the potential for rainbows is wholly unacceptable to me.
What you said. My first projector was a DLP. I saw rainbows after about a week of use, and then I couldn't stop seeing them. Drove me crazy. To me, it was like watching a movie and getting slapped in the face every 10 to 15 seconds.

The result was I migrated to LCOS and I've never looked at DLP again. But I don't have a life-long prejudice against it. If I could afford a 3-chip DLP, or was assured that I would never see a single rainbow on a reasonably priced single-chip DLP, I would consider them in a heart beat. Many of us just want a great image for a reasonable price and aren't wedded to a particular company or technology.
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post #523 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 11:44 AM
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Talking Accountants didn't build, engineer, ship or QC these projectors

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Ah, the commercial realities. Every unit held in stock in a unit that didn't ship, revenue that isn't recognised. The shipped units, even if faulty, are recognised as revenue the moment they ship out; they just need to be dealt with later.

Unfortunately this is what happens when accountants start running businesses...
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Accountants can also put companies out of business if they force a company to act this way. Just read this forum and others around the world. JVC has problems that must be resolved immediately. A statement should be issued and customers must be reassured to avoid a real disaster of cancellations and returns.

I think that because of the delay there was a lot a pressure put on JVC to deliver and the Q.C. might have been hurt because of this.
Hey, hey, hey. Stop blaming the accountants. They didn't engineer the projectors nor did they QC them. They didn't ship them nor did they drop them. They probably don't even own one. We accountants are not paid enough to buy these products or build a HT to put one in. In most cases accountants keep companies from going out of business, not put one under. So get off our backs. We didn't do it! https://www.avsforum.com/forum/image...es/redface.gif
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post #524 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting. I've not knowingly seen those particular products to compare, so I'm sure you're right, but why do you think that is? I mean, particularly with RGB convergence - surely it is all about just getting those panels mechanically aligned? There isn't an obvious difference other than competency of the implementation? Or is there some non-obvious difference with the optical path requirements that just means the DLP 3 chip setup is easier to get everything into correct positions? Intrigued.
There is definitely something with respect to DLP as a technology that makes RGB convergence easy, better, and more stable. The same apples to the sharpness and MTF of the projected video image as well. As to all the scientific reasons behind this let's chat about this another time as we have already ventured WAY off topic with respect to this thread!

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post #525 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 12:37 PM
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I thought this was the "2019 model projectors comparison" thread, not the "my projector technology is better than yours thread." I must have made a wrong turn.
I think the train left the station and no one got on board. I think this happened right after JVC picked up Arrow's two defective projectors. Now we've got a 21 day wait until they are replaced. Then another break in period, then hopefully no problems. It won't matter for me, because I'm due to receive my RS3000 near the end of next week. I've got my fingers crossed hoping to have better luck than Arrow. What we really need to do is grab Arrow and take him to a casino. Then whatever he bets on, bet the exact opposite. We're guaranteed to win.
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post #526 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 12:44 PM
 
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The 2019 model projectors comparison thread

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I thought this was the "2019 model projectors comparison" thread, not the "my projector technology is better than yours thread." I must have made a wrong turn.

Yes, it is. I think this all started when someone said that they wanted to add the LK990 XPR DLP, a 2019 model I might add, but the barbarian horde here dismissed it sight unseen because it doesn’t fit their biased agenda.

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You'll have to forgive if my tone seems direct or confrontational, I'm an incurable engineer who spends much of his day sifting through frankly BS marketing specs to find out who can actually deliver what they say and who is talking the talk but not walking the walk.



I'm all for seeing in demo rather than buying purely on numbers, at the end of the day you'll watch it, not someone else's meter. Numbers can be gamed by folk who know how to present or be blunt instruments. But factual claims are not suggestions to view, or claims of achieving pleasant results with particular content, they're facts, and sometimes I get the feeling we're living in a post-fact world these days and actually you're looked down on for daring to challenge what is being fed to you.



In this particular case Dave appears to be making quite a surprising claim for his calibration of a particular DLP projector (given the manufacturer's own specs), on the same line as something that immediately rings bells of Marketing BS ("give it a flashy name!"), and hence my meter goes off the scale. He can take that onboard or not as to whether he cares that this was my immediate involuntary response to his post; that is just honestly how it reacted in me. I'd imagine he might not care much seeing as I'm not likely his target customer, and that is fine. We all have different ways of selling ourselves and I'm not going to tell him he's wrong. He's not the only one here selling themselves, their services and their wares and that is just life online these days.



I do think though seeing as Dave is here at least in part in a self-promoting capacity of his business activities (he's reached out to me before via PM speculatively when I'd expressed some interest in a general thread on a product) it is quite legitimate to ask for surprising claims to be backed up with some evidence, and as he is here in that capacity I don't think he needs folk jumping to his defence when this is a simple question of a point of fact. As yet there hasn't actually been any confirming evidence of the claim made and we're supposed to be in a comparison thread, but I'll be very happy if it is forthcoming and be the first to congratulate if it really is hitting even full P3 within BT2020 container because it will represent something pretty interesting.



For what it's worth I've played around with filters myself a fair bit (I even have the special internal cinema filters purchased as spares from some projector models here) and the universal truth is a lot of the nits go if you have a filter which is actually capable of shifting the primaries in any significant fashion. That is why it is really interesting to see the detail of the results for the claims.

So you’re just going to be confrontational by contradicting yourself saying “.....Dave appears to be making quite a surprising claim for his calibration of a particular DLP projector (given the manufacturer's own specs).......” and then later on in your diatribe you say you full well know and say that you know it’s done by filters, and not just from the manufacturers out of the box specs!!!!

I am NOT here in a self promoting capacity. I am not a dealer and do not rep ANY of these brands, unlike the many, many folks here touting JVCs and Sonys that actually ARE, and we all know who they are since they’re the ones flooding these threads and not surprisingly, most of the ones who are poo-poo’ing any contradictory posts here that go against their sales agenda

I do and say this stuff as an enthusiast and calibrator that lives to play and fiddle with these technologies. Sorry to get excited and share my finds and conclusions with the forum populace so maybe someone else can also enjoy it as much as I have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I just replied to 12GAGE in the time you were writing this, I don't think I have anything to add in reply to this that isn't in that post.
Oh wonderful. It’s so nice to see you apologize to the person you didn’t offend with your personal response, but not the person you actually did. This certainly says a lot about the attitudes here.

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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Hey, I think it's great having the 'GAMUT POLICE' policing these forums! Keep up the good work sir!

And in all seriousness I really mean that. I think it is great keeping people in check in this regard, myself included. This is an audiovisual science forum after all!

Oh, so are you saying I’m lying then, and need corrected and “kept in check”? Seriously dude? Time for some people to dismount their elevated horses here!

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post #527 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 12:47 PM
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Interesting. I've not knowingly seen those particular products to compare, so I'm sure you're right, but why do you think that is? I mean, particularly with RGB convergence - surely it is all about just getting those panels mechanically aligned? There isn't an obvious difference other than competency of the implementation? Or is there some non-obvious difference with the optical path requirements that just means the DLP 3 chip setup is easier to get everything into correct positions? Intrigued.
That was my thoughts also. Why would convergence on 3-chip DLP be better than on LCOS, other than more effort being used to align the DLP.
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post #528 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, so are you saying I’m lying then, and need corrected and “kept in check”? Seriously dude? Time for some people to dismount their elevated horses here!
Not at all. My comment was not directed at you specifically but made in general, and in fact including at myself, wherein I was referring to the recent instance wherein further to your good self, Mr bobof similarly policed my referencing 99.5% coverage of REC.709 as being 100% of the color gamut. So if anything I was poking fun at myself, not you; so no elevated horses here

In case you missed this interchange here you go: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57539300

I should add that like you in this instance I had only carried out a quick calibration; wherein, as and when I had more time I was most certainly able to calibrate to 100% gamut coverage; so given you say you can do so also, I am sure you can too. So I am most definitely NOT suggesting that you are lying.

I was trying to make a joke, albeit apparently not very well, with respect to bobof being the 'GAMUT POLICE'


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post #529 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 01:02 PM
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Nor do I believe it will trickle down in a meaningful way before the display wall technologies replace projectors in the home theater setting.
Well see display walls are not cheap. Not to mention if your wall was built of lets say 4--55" units, 1 goes bad in three years and parts are no longer around, that would be a bad day.
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There is definitely something with respect to DLP as a technology that makes RGB convergence easy, better, and more stable. The same apples to the sharpness and MTF of the projected video image as well. As to all the scientific reasons behind this let's chat about this another time as we have already ventured WAY off topic with respect to this thread!

My first DLP projector was an Infocus SP4805 which I loved it. Fortunately looks like I'm not affected by rainbow effect as I never saw rainbow effect with that projector. Right now I'm running at my place of work Christies DHD800s DLPs projecting on to 350" DaLite screens (2 screens). We have been running these projectors for 4.5 years already and I have never got a complaint from even a single person (1500 people per service) about rainbow effect. They always compliant just about how loud I run the sound This year around September our time to upgrade will arrive and I already contacted Christie to demo a laser based and lamp based projector. My budget this time is $120000 for the two projectors. I hope I can get laser and 3 Chip DLP this time. 5 years ago my budget was only $60000 and that's why I went with 4 x DHD800s (two stacked per screen).

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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post

I was trying to make a joke, albeit apparently not very well, with respect to bobof being the 'GAMUT POLICE'

I got your joke

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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
So you’re just going to be confrontational by contradicting yourself saying “.....Dave appears to be making quite a surprising claim for his calibration of a particular DLP projector (given the manufacturer's own specs).......” and then later on in your diatribe you say you full well know and say that you know it’s done by filters, and not just from the manufacturers out of the box specs!!!!

I am NOT here in a self promoting capacity. I am not a dealer and do not rep ANY of these brands, unlike the many, many folks here touting JVCs and Sonys that actually ARE, and we all know who they are since they’re the ones flooding these threads and not surprisingly, most of the ones who are poo-poo’ing any contradictory posts here that go against their sales agenda

I do and say this stuff as an enthusiast and calibrator that lives to play and fiddle with these technologies. Sorry to get excited and share my finds and conclusions with the forum populace so maybe someone else can also enjoy it as much as I have.

The ONLY reason I sell these units right now is to share it with others and to get the capitol to get the next thing coming out to do it all over again.

Oh wonderful. It’s so nice to see you apologize to the person you didn’t offend with your personal response, but not the person you actually did. This certainly says a lot about the attitudes here.
I don't think I was actually apologising for anything...(!) However, if you're not making some kind of living in connection with your activities here then my apologies if I've got the wrong end of that stick. Giving stuff commercial sounding names, offering items for sale, and some of the talk about partner dealers I recall in some threads (plus your actual biog here) may have made me jump to the wrong conclusion.

For what it is worth, I only picked up on the filters about 2 or 3 posts into the back and forth with you from a throwaway comment you made (you hadn't mentioned it - I don't think - in the "headline" post which sparked the initial discourse and at that point there wasn't an indication they were involved). It could be considered mildly disingenious to be talking about the high brightness of a particular model and the gamut coverage being in excess of what folk would be expecting (in a comparison thread) without dropping into the conversation the full disclosure that it is being externally tweaked, with filters, reducing said brightness... . If the reason for not mentioning filters to start with was because some commercial interest, well, that is what it is. If it was just omission, then fine also. But don't pick me up on it after the fact out of the context of the timeline to make an argument.

I'm certainly not poo-pooing these products, far from it; I'm very interested to know more always where the boundaries are being pushed, though I think @ARROW-AV 's post on the issues around choosing a flashing tech with RBE potential for rooms which may have guests is a serious issue. Of course for a cinema for one where the user is fine with it this is not an issue. The posts you do see occasionally from folk buying these units and having no idea of the problem until they see it are a shame and a bit of a stain on the tech.

For my own part I've been more interested in the LED based DLP units as though not immune they have a bit less chance of rainbows (which I am sensitive to). I've been pretty close to picking one up as something to play with a few times. I did have a Sim2 3 chip on loan about 10 years ago in a previous job and I remember it being very nice at the time.
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post #533 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I was trying to make a joke, albeit apparently not very well, with respect to bobof being the 'GAMUT POLICE'
I should make a joke about the ‘Brightness Police’ - no names mentioned
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post #534 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Oh, so are you saying I’m lying then, and need corrected and “kept in check”? Seriously dude? Time for some people to dismount their elevated horses here!
Don't get so offended. I took that as much more of a (good humoured) bit of banter yet simultaneous poke in the ribs to me than to you
My original post to you was mildly tongue in cheek also, but I guess it was lost in the ether.
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Don't get so offended. I took that as much more of a (good humoured) bit of banter yet simultaneous poke in the ribs to me than to you

My original post to you was mildly tongue in cheek also, but I guess it was lost in the ether.


I have to agree that it seems people are getting offended way too easily. I’m a newb and neutral when it comes to any particular projector or manufacturer. I like to see discussions around the merits of the new ones, so appreciate Dave’s experience with the LK970.

I’d love to see that or the 990 compared with other ones by Arrow, but doesn’t seem like that will happen from what he has said.

In either case, looking forward to seeing some professional reviews of the 990 when they come out.


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... I'm due to receive my RS3000 near the end of next week. I've got my fingers crossed hoping to have better luck than Arrow.
No spoliers, but Dennis, you might end up having the best looking rs3000.

Congrats.

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post #537 of 2789 Old 02-09-2019, 03:32 PM
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I thought this was the "2019 model projectors comparison" thread, not the "my projector technology is better than yours thread." I must have made a wrong turn.
Are they not tantamount to the same thing?
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Some people do not perceive the rainbow effect or are not sensitive to it. However, this does NOT mean that it is a non-issue

[...].

So what I would love to see would be BENQ and other home theater projector manufacturers moving beyond single chip DLP projectors with poor contrast and significantly elevated black floors, and to similarly develop home theater projectors that are both 3-Chip DLP and high contrast. All the jigaw pieces are just lying there... they only need to put them together to make home theater DLP projectors with video performance that considerably surpasses what any of these LCoS projectors are currently achieving. But as of right now, with rainbows and poor ON/OFF contrast performance these projectors are not so

Haha! I concede. I concede.

Let me say right off the bat, your logic here is stoic: Right! Unless I'm ultra sensitive to the effect, I'd really have to have every potential guest demo for RBE, which isn't practical.

(Now, I hope this doesn't come off as being a bit too trite ) Your points in your original quote could have been reproduced into a short treatise...seriously some of the best explanatory writing I've seen here.

Substantively, I can add that a laser single chipper I've had, the UHZ65, had an okay lens but measured out a dynamic contrast ratio of over 35,000:1 and that wasn't even in its most aggressive setting; but yes, it did have pervasive RBE too. That machine's ubiquitous (for me, this happened later, over time) RBE effect could be inherent in the phosphor wheel/single seg. combo at a 2X or 2.5X speed.
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Yes, it is. I think this all started when someone said that they wanted to add the LK990 XPR DLP, a 2019 model
It's absolutely wonderful to see more tech. diversity in the 2019 comparisons thread.
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As I mentioned, I have a client in Staten Island that bought one from me, but he’s had various issues (including a robbery!!!) getting it all setup and running. He promised me that when it is he’d be happy to host you for a viewing.
Sorry, Dave. I wasn't sure if he was still going to hold a demo of the projector. Also, I'm sorry to hear about your friend's trouble.

Please keep me posted if does tell he will host a viewing. Thanks.
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