The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
I certainly can not advise you of that , as i have not seen the N7 .

I hope to get an N7 to compare, but here in Aus it will be some time down the track.

Ok... thanks
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post #62 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 01:45 AM
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I think to use a single white pixel in a corner to measure max laser dimming is not really such a clever idea. The better way to do that is to use dark grey pixel(s).

Be aware: If you use a white pixel - like people here are doing - you just manage that the laser is not shut off but this way you are not to achieve maximal dimming. When you create this situaion with a single white pixel you want the black to be as dark as possible (by reducing the laser outut and by closing an iris if one is present) but you also want that the white pixel is still as bright as possible (by increasing the laser output and opening the iris). So it matters a lot what kind of pixel you are using and also how the dimming is programmed to overcome this obvious dilemma. Therefore you are most likely not to obtain correct data for dynamic laser dimming with white pixels. Furthermore any data obtained with different brands (and different dimming programming installed) will also end up in an apple to pear comparison. To develop a really good method that reflects our viweing impressions is IMHO not so simple as it first seems.
P.S. btw this explains why C4H got different data for dynamic laser dimming than Arrow-AV ;-).
And it may also explains why the RS4500 users seem to be quite happy despite its relatively low ANSI and native contrast figures.
I don't think dimming is so sensitive that 1 white pixel out of 4 million vs 1 grey pixel out of 4 million results in a different dimming mode. In fact, from what I can tell, dimming on lasers is in steps not a gradual grade from 0.000000000000 to 100.0000000000. Do you have any data that shows otherwise? Or are you speculating that a single pixel of pure white will cause dimming to not go on full dim and be brighter? I like the 1 pixel of white as it simulates a starfield with 1 star.

Let me ask you this. What is the scenario that gets the Sony laser as dim as possible without shutting the laser off? As far as the RS4500 dimming vs the 885 dimming here, we aren't even in the same spectrum. The RS4500 dimming is very active and gets very dark. I think the Sony is more of an "is dimming really on" level of dimming.

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post #63 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I think to use a single white pixel in a corner to measure max laser dimming is not really such a clever idea. The better way to do that is to use dark grey pixel(s).

Be aware: If you use a white pixel - like people here are doing - you just manage that the laser is not shut off but this way you are not to achieve maximal dimming. When you create this situaion with a single white pixel you want the black to be as dark as possible (by reducing the laser outut and by closing an iris if one is present) but you also want that the white pixel is still as bright as possible (by increasing the laser output and opening the iris). So it matters a lot what kind of pixel you are using and also how the dimming is programmed to overcome this obvious dilemma. Therefore you are most likely not to obtain correct data for dynamic laser dimming with white pixels. Furthermore any data obtained with different brands (and different dimming programming installed) will also end up in an apple to pear comparison. To develop a really good method that reflects our viweing impressions is IMHO not so simple as it first seems.
P.S. btw this explains why C4H got different data for dynamic laser dimming than Arrow-AV ;-).
And it may also explains why the RS4500 users seem to be quite happy despite its relatively low ANSI and native contrast figures.
I have one that allows dimming, so I will try it and see if there is any difference. I don't think a single pixel should make that much difference though. When you compare the Sony models you see the dynamic modulation does very little overall. Knowing how the RS4500 works, I would bet in Auto 1 the difference would be more pronounced and in Auto 2 you wouldn't even see the pixel because of the dimming.
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post #64 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 07:34 AM
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I have one that allows dimming, so I will try it and see if there is any difference. I don't think a single pixel should make that much difference though. When you compare the Sony models you see the dynamic modulation does very little overall. Knowing how the RS4500 works, I would bet in Auto 1 the difference would be more pronounced and in Auto 2 you wouldn't even see the pixel because of the dimming.
Kris, do you know if the dimming algorithms even base the amount of dimming on the brightness of any individual pixels or groups of pixels, or is it simply on the frame APL?
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post #65 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 07:39 AM
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Definitely looks like overall APL. If you do the tests with the full white boxes, it does almost nothing once you hit 2% APL. If it was based on full pixel level, it would be the same for all of them. I will test with lower level pixels today using the Radiance Pattern.
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post #66 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 03:21 PM
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Thanks thats is nice photos... i realy dont know what to say about thats new generation JVC. I wonder if I should wait for somethink bether and get RS540/x7900 or wait if JVC will make some software improvement on N7/N5.
ZOOM in on the pics on a good monitor [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

The X9900 is a very good projector BUT it cannot match the NX9 for detail ... On my 143" Scope screen, the NX9 ( E Shift OFF) is quite noticeably better than the X9900[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
You can see the morie' in the thumbnail of the hand, the cloth weave is sharper. Owning a 990 and seeing several 4k units, has left me feeling that there still isn't enough high resolution content to feed that small of an increase for the money. Those pictures actually validate my feelings. Buy a Panny player or setup a Mad Vr PC and pocket the 3500-5000 grand til the next release, which I assume will be laser. The image you will have will be virtually indistinguishable. (Opinion). At 10-12 ft it is a fact

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post #67 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Definitely looks like overall APL. If you do the tests with the full white boxes, it does almost nothing once you hit 2% APL. If it was based on full pixel level, it would be the same for all of them. I will test with lower level pixels today using the Radiance Pattern.
Did you see the email chain Kris, where I tested Nigels ADL patterns both Grey and White and I couldn't get my 9500 to do anything whatsoever dynamically? Not even 1% would trigger the iris to move at all.

Interesting. Looks like the DI is only active under 1% ADL.

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post #68 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 09:41 PM
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Did you see the email chain Kris, where I tested Nigels ADL patterns both Grey and White and I couldn't get my 9500 to do anything whatsoever dynamically? Not even 1% would trigger the iris to move at all.

Interesting. Looks like the DI is only active under 1% ADL.
I didn't?? Weird. But that doesn't make much sense though since we see gamma manipulation with the DI on the JVC series. If it was doing nothing above 1%, we wouldn't see the gamma manipulation. But it might mean that the gray ADL patterns are not effective at measuring dynamic contrast.

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post #69 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 09:43 PM
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I tested the 885ES with the single pixel pattern in the Radiance which lets you adjust the overall luminance of the pixel from basically nothing to full output. The black level on screen didn't change at all regardless of the pixel strength. Only when it went to full black (no pixel) did you see any change.
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post #70 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 10:09 PM
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I didn't?? Weird. But that doesn't make much sense though since we see gamma manipulation with the DI on the JVC series. If it was doing nothing above 1%, we wouldn't see the gamma manipulation. But it might mean that the gray ADL patterns are not effective at measuring dynamic contrast.
Yeah, but even the white ADL patterns would not let the iris shut down at 1% and above.

I even changed brightness and contrast to the extreme ends of the scale to see if I could get it to do something, and it did nothing, which I thought was the most interesting. Sure enough chuck on the interstellar scene or any low enough ADL film content and it works a charm...

I would like to know at which point the Iris will begin to move with the patterns, but it looks like we would be needing 0.25 / 0.5 / 0.75% ADL patterns and see what it does with those.

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post #71 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 10:11 PM
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Yeah, but even the white ADL patterns would not let the iris shut down at 1% and above.

I even changed brightness and contrast to the extreme ends of the scale to see if I could get it to do something, and it did nothing, which I thought was the most interesting. Sure enough chuck on the interstellar scene or any low enough ADL film content and it works a charm...

I would like to know at which point the Iris will begin to move with the patterns, but it looks like we would be needing 0.25 / 0.5 / 0.75% ADL patterns and see what it does with those.
VERY interesting. So I wonder why the gamma manipulation with images that are clearly higher than that. I know you have the ability to measure for image ADL. Could you measure the scene in Oblivion (Freeman in the dark) and the scene from Interstellar so we have an idea what kind of ADL they are?

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post #72 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 11:08 PM
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VERY interesting. So I wonder why the gamma manipulation with images that are clearly higher than that. I know you have the ability to measure for image ADL. Could you measure the scene in Oblivion (Freeman in the dark) and the scene from Interstellar so we have an idea what kind of ADL they are?
I can tell you right now the interstellar shot is 0.019% ADL @ 2.2 Gamma / 0.015% @ 2.4



Oblivion, I took a few shots to see the range.

0.003% ADL! @ 2.2 . Thats actually the lowest I can measure, Photoshop wont show me more than 2 decimal places when I do the calculations.




0.035% ADL @ 2.2 / 0.27% @ 2.4




0.15% ADL @ 2.2 / 0.12% @ 2.4




1.2% ADL @ 2.2 / 1.04% @ 2.4





I've seen the iris clamp down on scenes that are not overly dark too. Maybe they are still well under 1% though?

To go from 1% ADL in white:



To dynamic, you have to make the box a lot bigger, I wonder if that has anything to do with it. Maybe its also sensitive to the location of the content, I dont know:


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post #73 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 11:19 PM
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I can tell you right now the interstellar shot is 0.19% ADL @ 2.2 Gamma / 0.15% @ 2.4



Oblivion, I took a few shots to see the range.

0.003% ADL! @ 2.2 . Thats actually the lowest I can measure, Photoshop wont show me more than 2 decimal places when I do the calculations.




0.035% ADL @ 2.2 / 0.27% @ 2.4




0.15% ADL @ 2.2 / 0.12% @ 2.4




1.2% ADL @ 2.2 / 1.04% @ 2.4





I've seen the iris clamp down on scenes that are not overly dark too. Maybe they are still well under 1% though?

To go from 1% ADL in white:



To dynamic, you have to make the box a lot bigger, I wonder if that has anything to do with it. Maybe its also sensitive to the location of the content, I dont know:

Could very well be that we have been overestimating what range the dynamic control really applies to. Looking at the numbers I've seen with the Sony compared to the JVC, it is easy to see that they really only separate out near black (last 2%), which explains why so many say they look nearly identical except with really dark material. It would be REALLY hard to measure much lower than 1% as the squares start getting so small.
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post #74 of 2790 Old 01-22-2019, 11:22 PM
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I'd just like to pipe in and say in the demo of the NX7 I saw they specifically showed DI deepening the dark area during a scene that was considerably higher ADL than the 1.2% shot from Javs above. They said the DI code was completely redone for the new projectors. The scene had shadows that dropped maybe 50% darker with DI on vs off with no visible change in highlights (stars and a streetlamp)

So I would expect the DI to trigger at a higher point compared to the X9500. This is one area I am most looking forward to see for myself when I eventually get my unit (was told Feb 13th).
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post #75 of 2790 Old 01-23-2019, 07:11 AM
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Just a thought guys, but could the dynamic iris not be kicking in on the test patterns because the projector is not sensing a valid video stream, but rather a static image?

You could try transferring the patterns into an MP4 using Adobe Premier CC at various APL levels, and seeing if that makes the dynamic iris kick in?
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post #76 of 2790 Old 01-23-2019, 08:34 AM
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I'd just like to pipe in and say in the demo of the NX7 I saw they specifically showed DI deepening the dark area during a scene that was considerably higher ADL than the 1.2% shot from Javs above. They said the DI code was completely redone for the new projectors. The scene had shadows that dropped maybe 50% darker with DI on vs off with no visible change in highlights (stars and a streetlamp)

So I would expect the DI to trigger at a higher point compared to the X9500. This is one area I am most looking forward to see for myself when I eventually get my unit (was told Feb 13th).
Indeed the functioning of the dynamic has changed a lot on the new projectors. Pumping on end credits is minimal and I haven't seen any at all on normal content. This is true of both SDR and HDR, even with the manual iris set to zero. It's a shame some people are having problems with mechanical noise from the Dynamic Iris (my NX7 is silent) because it really does work well I feel. Starfields from shows like the Expanse and Orville are excellent. Deep rich blacks with strong pinpoints of light (very OLED like). My previous X750 reduced the dynamic range with the DI engaged on scenes like this.

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post #77 of 2790 Old 01-23-2019, 08:57 AM
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Indeed the functioning of the dynamic has changed a lot on the new projectors. Pumping on end credits is minimal and I haven't seen any at all on normal content. This is true of both SDR and HDR, even with the manual iris set to zero. It's a shame some people are having problems with mechanical noise from the Dynamic Iris (my NX7 is silent) because it really does work well I feel. Starfields from shows like the Expanse and Orville are excellent. Deep rich blacks with strong pinpoints of light (very OLED like). My previous X750 reduced the dynamic range with the DI engaged on scenes like this.
It's reassuring that the DI problem is not found in all units. Also glad to hear that the DI function seems to have improved significantly as well. Do you also not see the evidence of the gamma adjustment that occurs with the DI, which can kind of 'smear' details on the picture very briefly, during a major transition from dark to light scenes?

Given the history of noisy iris function in prior generations of JVC projectors, though, which can sometimes lead to overt failure, the reports of noisy clicking DI are worrisome. I'm sure JVC will stand behind their warranty, and fix whatever problems might happen down the road in this regard, but as we all know, this is a major hassle.

But hopefully as more units get out there, this will be seen to be an isolated issue, and not a common one.
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post #78 of 2790 Old 01-23-2019, 09:44 AM
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It's reassuring that the DI problem is not found in all units. Also glad to hear that the DI function seems to have improved significantly as well. Do you also not see the evidence of the gamma adjustment that occurs with the DI, which can kind of 'smear' details on the picture very briefly, during a major transition from dark to light scenes?

Given the history of noisy iris function in prior generations of JVC projectors, though, which can sometimes lead to overt failure, the reports of noisy clicking DI are worrisome. I'm sure JVC will stand behind their warranty, and fix whatever problems might happen down the road in this regard, but as we all know, this is a major hassle.

But hopefully as more units get out there, this will be seen to be an isolated issue, and not a common one.
The Auto1(gradation) setting of the DI seems to track proper gamma quite well visually. Auto2 (contrast enhancing) does show a bit of gamma manipulation visually buts it not excessive. I haven't seen any of the smearing that you mention. The video processing has improved considerably over the previous models and it doesn't limit the capability of the native 4K panels or the sharp lens. The crazy sharpness that people talk about on test patterns like QBF is readily apparent in actual movies and TV shows.

I too am a bit concerned about the long-term reliability of the Dynamic Iris. I have a 3 year warranty on the NX7 and seem to be on a 3 year upgrade cycle for projectors anyway (X35 in 2012, X750 in 2015, NX7 in 2018) but its a real hassle to get a projector repaired or replaced.
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post #79 of 2790 Old 01-23-2019, 02:07 PM
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Just a thought guys, but could the dynamic iris not be kicking in on the test patterns because the projector is not sensing a valid video stream, but rather a static image?

You could try transferring the patterns into an MP4 using Adobe Premier CC at various APL levels, and seeing if that makes the dynamic iris kick in?
No, I actually tested with Interstellar as a still image too.
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
It's reassuring that the DI problem is not found in all units. Also glad to hear that the DI function seems to have improved significantly as well. Do you also not see the evidence of the gamma adjustment that occurs with the DI, which can kind of 'smear' details on the picture very briefly, during a major transition from dark to light scenes?

Given the history of noisy iris function in prior generations of JVC projectors, though, which can sometimes lead to overt failure, the reports of noisy clicking DI are worrisome. I'm sure JVC will stand behind their warranty, and fix whatever problems might happen down the road in this regard, but as we all know, this is a major hassle.

But hopefully as more units get out there, this will be seen to be an isolated issue, and not a common one.
With advance replacement, it not near as much of an inconvenience as it used to be.
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post #81 of 2790 Old 01-23-2019, 06:44 PM
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With advance replacement, it not near as much of an inconvenience as it used to be.
Agreed. This is a big improvement in customer service, and well appreciated.

The hassle factor for me is getting somebody over tall enough and strong enough to assist me in getting the old one down, and the new one up. But as I think about it, since that can be done at the same time, that is a major step forward. When I had to send my RS400 in, it meant 2 separate occasions.

And now that you raise the issue, and I think about it:

If and when there is a problem, and they send a different projector, do you end up keeping that one permanently, or is it a temporary hold-over until they repair your original unit? If permanent, would it be new, or a refurb? And if it's a temporary situation, I guess I'd still have to have somebody over on 2 separate occasions.

First world problems...
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post #82 of 2790 Old 01-23-2019, 11:09 PM
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If and when there is a problem, and they send a different projector, do you end up keeping that one permanently, or is it a temporary hold-over until they repair your original unit? If permanent, would it be or a refurb? And if it's a temporary situation, I guess I'd still have to have somebody over on 2 separate occasions.

First world problems...
I'm having an RS3000 replaced with advanced replacement as mine seemed to be damaged in shipping that caused the panel convergence to be way off. They ship the new one in and you keep it, the broken one goes back and I assume they fix it and sell it as refurb. The JVC rep I talked to said I just need to make sure I get the old one shipped back in 5 days or call them if some kind of issue came up preventing me from doing so. All in all it's been a good experience.
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post #83 of 2790 Old 01-24-2019, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Agreed. This is a big improvement in customer service, and well appreciated.

The hassle factor for me is getting somebody over tall enough and strong enough to assist me in getting the old one down, and the new one up. But as I think about it, since that can be done at the same time, that is a major step forward. When I had to send my RS400 in, it meant 2 separate occasions.

And now that you raise the issue, and I think about it:

If and when there is a problem, and they send a different projector, do you end up keeping that one permanently, or is it a temporary hold-over until they repair your original unit? If permanent, would it be new, or a refurb? And if it's a temporary situation, I guess I'd still have to have somebody over on 2 separate occasions.

First world problems...
You keep the projector that JVC sends. Your old projector does not come back.
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post #84 of 2790 Old 01-24-2019, 12:30 PM
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I've been gone for too long.. trying to catch up on all of these threads... looking to replace my old Sony VPL-VW95ES to a 4K Projector. (I have had this same projector for 7 years now!) $7k MAX price limit but like everyone am trying to weigh the cost benefits. Have a complete light controlled room, 4K / 1080P sources off of streaming and a HTPC. Of course all of the hype is on the NX5/NX7s, but also comparing to other projectors too... what to get!??

Also, I notice when I stream PAL content I get some frame jumping... wonder if that is due to the projector not frame matching or the receiver in between. *shrug* Maybe the upgrade will correct that issue?
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post #85 of 2790 Old 01-26-2019, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I think to use a single white pixel in a corner to measure max laser dimming is not really such a clever idea. The better way to do that is to use dark grey pixel(s).

Be aware: If you use a white pixel - like people here are doing - you just manage that the laser is not shut off but this way you are not to achieve maximal dimming. When you create this situaion with a single white pixel you want the black to be as dark as possible (by reducing the laser outut and by closing an iris if one is present) but you also want that the white pixel is still as bright as possible (by increasing the laser output and opening the iris). So it matters a lot what kind of pixel you are using and also how the dimming is programmed to overcome this obvious dilemma. Therefore you are most likely not to obtain correct data for dynamic laser dimming with white pixels. Furthermore any data obtained with different brands (and different dimming programming installed) will also end up in an apple to pear comparison. To develop a really good method that reflects our viweing impressions is IMHO not so simple as it first seems.
P.S. btw this explains why C4H got different data for dynamic laser dimming than Arrow-AV ;-).
And it may also explains why the RS4500 users seem to be quite happy despite its relatively low ANSI and native contrast figures.
Sorry, but this is absolute rubbish!

Firstly, the purpose of the singular pixel is to 100% defeat the triggering of shutting off of the light engine in response to a full field black video signal, and thereby allow the true contrast performance of the projector that applies to actual video content to be objectively measured and evaluated. Therefore, if you use a dark grey pixel you risk failure in this regard, because the projector might be ‘confused’ by this and still initiate full or partial shutoff of the light engine, which you don't want, because this will yield false/incorrect measurements.

Secondly, I happen to have actually tried using both singular-gray-pixel-against-full-field-black and singular-white-pixel-against-full-field-black and so far have yet to come across an instance wherein the measurements are any different.

And for what it's worth, my measurements concur with not only @Kris Deering 's but at least 12 other video professionals that I can think of off the top of my head. So, the fact of the matter is that C4H's figures don't just differ from mine but everyone else's too. Wherein, IMO I think that they must be simply applying to a different set of circumstances, such as for example with the projectors not being accurately calibrated to 1% DE and/or D65 white point and hence cannot be used for comparison purposes versus our measurements, because to do so would be comparing apples versus oranges... or 'pears' as you yourself state

Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't think dimming is so sensitive that 1 white pixel out of 4 million vs 1 grey pixel out of 4 million results in a different dimming mode. In fact, from what I can tell, dimming on lasers is in steps not a gradual grade from 0.000000000000 to 100.0000000000. Do you have any data that shows otherwise? Or are you speculating that a single pixel of pure white will cause dimming to not go on full dim and be brighter? I like the 1 pixel of white as it simulates a starfield with 1 star.

Let me ask you this. What is the scenario that gets the Sony laser as dim as possible without shutting the laser off? As far as the RS4500 dimming vs the 885 dimming here, we aren't even in the same spectrum. The RS4500 dimming is very active and gets very dark. I think the Sony is more of an "is dimming really on" level of dimming.
Precisely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I tested the 885ES with the single pixel pattern in the Radiance which lets you adjust the overall luminance of the pixel from basically nothing to full output. The black level on screen didn't change at all regardless of the pixel strength. Only when it went to full black (no pixel) did you see any change.
Thanks Kris. My own evaluations came to exactly the same conclusion


Last edited by ARROW-AV; 01-26-2019 at 02:02 PM.
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post #86 of 2790 Old 01-26-2019, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Purely for interest sake...

Z1/RS4500 vs NX9 with 8K E-Shift OFF/ON

MPC set to 0

What the still images of the NX9 DO NOT show is the excessive image noise with 8K E-Shift ON..

Just to clarify a point......

If you were to display the image from the NX9 ( with 8K E-Shift OFF) first, your response will be "WOW!" it looks very good

Its only when you switch to the image displayed from the Z1/RS4500 that you will then go.... OH !
I think it important to stress the fact that what Mr Woofer says here is absolutely true... Unfortunately, any and all screenshot comparisons of the JVC RS3000/NX9 with the eShift 8K turned ON versus OFF will NOT be showing you the whole picture (excuse the pun ) because you will not be seeing the layer of grunge comprising significant video noise that overlays the entire image as well as the destablizing of the image that also occurs; wherein, because of these the overall net effect of turning on the eShift 8K is in fact NEGATIVE and not POSITIVE.

Hopefully JVC can improve this situation, but from what I experienced so far I would have to agree with @woofer regarding this, and so personally I will be choosing to turn the eShift 8K OFF. IMO the added video noise and image destabilization quite simply spoils the party as far as eShift 8K is currently concerned...

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post #87 of 2790 Old 01-26-2019, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
So I thought I would throw a bit of info up. I have two projectors here at the house, the Sony VW995ES and the Sony VW885ES. I did contrast measurements for both, including brand new CR measurements for the 885ES today after a fresh calibration.

Sony 995ES max native contrast (min zoom): 20K:1
Sony 995ES max native contrast (min zoom single pixel): 13,700:1

Sony 885ES max native contrast (min zoom): 15,400:1
Sony 885ES max native contrast (min zoom single pixel): 13,800:1

Sony 995ES contrast ratio measurements at setup zoom (for my throw, close to max zoom):



Sony 885ES contrast ratio measurements at setup zoom (for my throw, close to max zoom):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I asked Stacey Spears to make me a pattern with a single pixel lit near the upper right corner so no way it would be in the measurement window. Didn’t expect it to affect the black level with anything but the full laser off mode, but it affects them all surprisingly.
Interesting!

Kris, I would like to commend you regarding your discovery here

Personally, I would never have thought to try measuring the NATIVE and LIMITED DYNAMIC contrast using the single-white-pixel-against-full-field-black because I would have simply assumed that there would be no shutting off of the light engine with either of these, because, well, there isn't supposed to be!

Light engine shutoff with the FULL DYNAMIC makes sense with respect to producing a full fade to black in response to a full field black video signal; however, I have to say that doing so (and only slightly) with respect to both the NATIVE and LIMITED DYNAMIC seemingly serves no purpose other than to artificially inflate the respective measurements for marketing purposes.

Either way, clearly the true performance, namely that which applies to actual video content is in fact the 1 PIXEL contrast figures

So, as far as the two units that you have measured are concerned, the true contrast performance is as per follows:

SONY 995/870ES: 12,000:1 NATIVE | 17,826:1 LIMITED DYNAMIC | 18,636:1 FULL DYNAMIC

SONY 885/760ES: 10,833:1 NATIVE | 12,143:1 LIMITED DYNAMIC | 14,706:1 FULL DYNAMIC



Furthermore, regarding your measurements here I find it interesting to note that:

(1) RE: SONY 995/870ES for the range 2% - 20% ADL the contrast performance is slightly higher/superior with the Dynamic Dimming set to LIMITED as compared with FULL... which is kinda the other way around than it really should be

(2) RE: Both SONY 995/870ES and 885/760ES for the entire range of 1% - 20% ADL the LIMITED Dynamic contrast performance is essentially the same as the NATIVE performance, meaning that the dynamic contrast is within this range doing nothing to increase the dynamic range via gamma modulation or otherwise

(3) RE: Both SONY 995/870ES and 885/760ES for the entire range of 1% - 20% ADL the FULL Dynamic contrast performance is actually lower/inferior than the NATIVE performance

(4) For the range of 1% - 20% ADL the NATIVE contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES is essentially the same as SONY 885/760ES

(5) For the range of 1% - 20% ADL the FULL Dynamic contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES is worse than the SONY 885/760ES

(6) For the range of 2% - 20% ADL the LIMITED Dynamic contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES is worse than the SONY 885/760ES


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post #88 of 2790 Old 01-26-2019, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Could very well be that we have been overestimating what range the dynamic control really applies to. Looking at the numbers I've seen with the Sony compared to the JVC, it is easy to see that they really only separate out near black (last 2%), which explains why so many say they look nearly identical except with really dark material
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Just a thought guys, but could the dynamic iris not be kicking in on the test patterns because the projector is not sensing a valid video stream, but rather a static image?

You could try transferring the patterns into an MP4 using Adobe Premier CC at various APL levels, and seeing if that makes the dynamic iris kick in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
No, I actually tested with Interstellar as a still image too.
I have personally tried using both static images and video and there isn't any difference.

Also, I have also measured a different make and model of projector that also uses dynamic contrast functionality, wherein there measures a significant increase in contrast performance via both gamma modulation and dynamic iris functionality throughout the entire range 0% - 50% ADL

Therefore, I think Kris has hit the nail on the head. In short, I think that the analysis and measurements are simply revealing what is actually going on with respect to these particular projectors regarding their dynamic contrast functionality


Last edited by ARROW-AV; 01-26-2019 at 01:50 PM.
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post #89 of 2790 Old 01-26-2019, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Interesting!

Kris, I would like to commend you regarding your discovery here

Personally, I would never have thought to try measuring the NATIVE and LIMITED DYNAMIC contrast using the single-white-pixel-against-full-field-black because I would have simply assumed that there would be no shutting off of the light engine with either of these, because, well, there isn't supposed to be!

Light engine shutoff with the FULL DYNAMIC makes sense with respect to producing a full fade to black in response to a full field black video signal; however, I have to say that doing so (and only slightly) with respect to both the NATIVE and LIMITED DYNAMIC seemingly serves no purpose other than to artificially inflate the respective measurements for marketing purposes.

Either way, clearly the true performance, namely that which applies to actual video content is in fact the 1 PIXEL contrast figures

So, as far as the two units that you have measured are concerned, the true contrast performance is as per follows:

SONY 995/870ES: 12,000:1 NATIVE | 17,826:1 LIMITED DYNAMIC | 18,636:1 FULL DYNAMIC

SONY 885/760ES: 10,833:1 NATIVE | 12,143:1 LIMITED DYNAMIC | 14,706:1 FULL DYNAMIC



Furthermore, regarding your measurements here I find it interesting to note that:

(1) RE: SONY 995/870ES for the range 2% - 20% ADL the contrast performance is slightly higher/superior with the Dynamic Dimming set to LIMITED as compared with FULL... which is kinda the other way around than it really should be

(2) RE: Both SONY 995/870ES and 885/760ES for the entire range of 1% - 20% ADL the LIMITED Dynamic contrast performance is essentially the same as the NATIVE performance, meaning that the dynamic contrast is within this range doing nothing to increase the dynamic range via gamma modulation or otherwise

(3) RE: Both SONY 995/870ES and 885/760ES for the entire range of 1% - 20% ADL the FULL Dynamic contrast performance is actually lower/inferior than the NATIVE performance

(4) For the range of 1% - 20% ADL the NATIVE contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES is essentially the same as SONY 885/760ES

(5) For the range of 1% - 20% ADL the FULL Dynamic contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES is worse than the SONY 885/760ES

(6) For the range of 2% - 20% ADL the LIMITED Dynamic contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES is worse than the SONY 885/760ES

Just for some clarification. The native contrast is lower in that lower range with the 995, but the black level is actually lower (at the expense of white). So some may actually like the 995 more because the blacks look slightly deeper.
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post #90 of 2790 Old 01-26-2019, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Just for some clarification. The native contrast is lower in that lower range with the 995, but the black level is actually lower (at the expense of white). So some may actually like the 995 more because the blacks look slightly deeper.
Good point

Yes, whilst the contrast dynamic range is less with the SONY 995/870ES vs the SONY 885/760ES, the black levels are actually lower because both white level and black level are being reduced more with the SONY 995/870ES than with the SONY 885/760ES, although at the expense of reducing image luminance. Wherein, with respect to the units you measured, here are the corresponding calibrated light outputs:

• SONY 995/870ES = 1634 lumens

• SONY 885/760ES = 1872 lumens


Interestingly, here's another very recent review: http://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog...is-de-gregory/

Wherein, the calibrated measurements for their SONY 995/870ES are 1584 lumens and 15,797:1 dynamic contrast

It's going to be interesting to see how my own measurements compare

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Last edited by ARROW-AV; 01-26-2019 at 01:59 PM.
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