The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 2791 Old 02-12-2019, 07:59 PM
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That is the minimum. Wonder why.
Just saying if you want to bring up display performance standards as important facts, one can't ignore the 2000:1 DCI contrast cinema projection performance standard and then claim 2000:1 native is far below the performance standard - when it actually is the industry standard for DCI cinema projection.

I should get a bumper sticker: "If it's good enough for AMC, it's good enough for me!"
You should. For sure.

And I don’t own or watch a DCI cinema projector or DCI content. So what does the DCI minimum standard have to do with a single thing we are talking about.
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post #872 of 2791 Old 02-12-2019, 08:04 PM
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I will PM you a bit later, but I'll share the settings you should use. I'm betting your real light output is either at or below 100 nits. So there are pretty specific settings which will give you a fantastic picture.

That 200 nits thing is not really same anymore when using dynamic tone mapping. You are supposed to enter your actual screen brightness, do you happen to know what it is?
No sorry I dont know my screen brightness, but Im told the ST130 as a micro perf has a gain of 1.2. The screen is 145" curved scope diag and I use an Isco IIIL with cineslide. The NX9 is very bright on my screen and i only need low lamp DI set to -3 auto 2, the image is way brighter than my X9900 which I needed to run on high lamp....I added the madvr v40 patch to the latest madvr version, I want to stay on this less complicated version of 40 until I have a better understanding how it all works. So far the madvr HDR/SDR tone mapping looks better and way more dynamic than the NX9 tone mapping. Thanks Javs...

BTW just thought, if I want to stay HDR to SDR madvr method, is there a way to automatically trigger full lamp when an HDR films starts since I wouldnt be using the JVC auto tone map (which triggers full lamp) ?

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post #873 of 2791 Old 02-12-2019, 08:23 PM
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No sorry I dont know my screen brightness, but Im told the ST130 as a micro perf has a gain of 1.2. The screen is 145" curved scope diag and I use an Isco IIIL with cineslide. The NX9 is very bright on my screen and i only need low lamp DI set to -3 auto 2, the image is way brighter than my X9900 which I needed to run on high lamp....I added the madvr v40 patch to the latest madvr version, I want to stay on this less complicated version of 40 until I have a better understanding how it all works. So far the madvr HDR/SDR tone mapping looks better and way more dynamic than the NX9 tone mapping. Thanks Javs...



BTW just thought, if I want to stay HDR to SDR madvr method, is there a way to automatically trigger full lamp when an HDR films starts since I wouldnt be using the JVC auto tone map (which triggers full lamp) ?
In the last couple of days there has been a pretty big development with dynamic tone mapping now not needing measurement files in order to do dynamic clipping. So I think you really should just have a go. As I said I'll give you the settings to use.
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post #874 of 2791 Old 02-12-2019, 08:39 PM
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I have a grey 1.3 gain screen and I can definitely say without a doubt my blacks look better than on a white screen. Not sure if the fact that it’s also an ambient light rejection type that is giving a darker black perception.

Here is a sample vid of my nx9 on my grey screen . With the DI off too. Manual iris set to 0.
Yanki, in your uploaded videos, I skipped over two videos to that accelerated time line video. I don't know how much is due to your gray screen or how much is due to your new NX9, or a combination of the two, but the picture quality looks great!
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post #875 of 2791 Old 02-12-2019, 09:47 PM
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You should. For sure.

And I don’t own or watch a DCI cinema projector or DCI content. So what does the DCI minimum standard have to do with a single thing we are talking about.
Because it's the industry native contrast standard for digital cinema projection. You said people were "making up BS performance standards" and that 2000:1 was ridiculous and substandard so I presented the industry standard for contrast in digital cinema projection, which happens to be 2000:1.

What performance standard were you referring to that requires 10000:1 min native or whatever value you are arguing for?

Finally, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. One can weigh a balance of contrast, brightness, functionality, and cost. You seem to be fully focused on native contrast at expense of all other aspects - instead, my thought is 2000:1 native is more than "good enough" to fulfill the contrast piece and that number is backed up by industry digital cinema standards. Then I have other considerations like solid state functionality, brightness, cost, etc. More to it than just native contrast.
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post #876 of 2791 Old 02-12-2019, 11:56 PM
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I guess it's fair to say that if the JVCs are crushing detail because 17 is often barely visible, then they are showing less detail, so are also not showing things correctly and is also not as the director intended.
17 is suppose to be barely visible. Just barely no more.

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post #877 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 12:15 AM
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Doesn't matter, though, if you think about it, given the advanced processing in modern projectors that should be able to approrpiately process the incoming signal.

Home DLP is the best emualtion of commercial DLP, and can match all but the very best and most expensive commerical DLPs. The other home techs look radically different than commercial DLP. So if you want to replicate the theatrical display target and look of the theatrical grade, again IMO a purist would definitely go for DLP.
I assume you also put gum under your seats and throw popcorn all over the floor in your home theater, as well.
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post #878 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 01:14 AM
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This is the SDR Bluray or Oblivion, this time the waveform peak is 100 nits.
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My point is I believe you are incorrect in your assumption that HDR is generally brighter and thus favours a projector with higher ADL Contrast performance compared to one with higher native...
Spoiler!
Two fantastic posts here Matt, I don't often take the time to highlight someones contributions to these threads, but those two long posts with the waveform analysis are truly fascinating and enlightening. A very useful tool for making visual assessments post calibration of a display.

PS - Out of interest what software do you use for the waveform analysis?
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post #879 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 01:20 AM
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I do not have anything against what you prefer. I was just talking about your statement that the blacks are blacker, while the whites are brighter. Placing a piece of ST130 showing the whites on the ST130 and the white on your screen, you can see exactly what is happening to the whites on your screen. If you are like 99.99% out there, you will prefer the blacks on your screen and the whites on the ST130, but you can't have both. I wish we could, but impossible, with front projection.
Good point. And I concur. The 'white' 1.0 gain materials would have more accurate colors for sure. That's just logical. And that means 'white' is 'whiter'.. .that's also true. I never claimed that the white is 'whiter on the silver screen'... I think you projected that onto what i said...

However, our eyes tend to 'adjust' to what 'white means' when you have nothing to compare to.. Kris said as much... so, when viewing ONLY this screen with no comparison, white is as white as can be to me...

What I did say was 'brighter'.. not 'whiter'... and this is across all colors... in fact, sometimes it's blindingly bright on this 1.8 gain screen. I have never felt 'blindingly bright' on the 1.0 screen even if the white is 'whiter'... do you get what i mean?

So, it's still true that this 1.8 gain screen is brighter, yet at the same time, brought the black floor down... (prob because of the silver color, so very low light is maybe absorbed by the silver?).

I want to re-iterate... this isn't a low gain 'grey' screen, or the low gain 'woven screens' like the V6 or the Seymours... those act like an ND filter.. they make everything less bright.. If you have a bright enough projector, those screens would still look great and contrasty...

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What is the brand name and where is "locally"? If it's micro perforated, I assume it's AT? How close can one view it before the perforations are perceptible?

Thanks
It's not branded. I can't afford the brands...it's by a local dealer in my country. I am sure you can find a similar high gain silver screen in the USA?

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I like some of the Seymour screens. It's definitely interesting how the different materials operate. I also wonder about color shift. ...will have to take some time to research tonight ...just taking a lunch break now with a crazy snow storm outside here. Lol.
Yes, there are going to be color shifts as it's silver... but if i don't compare with a white screen side by side, my brain just re-interprets the colors so white is really white to me... but of course if you have a 'white screen' side by side, then you'll see the difference... I am not sure if a good calibration can get you back to where it should be without the color shift...

Also remember, the low gain Seymours aren't the same thing as this high gain screen... Those are like ND filters.. they give you better contrast, but you lose light all over...
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post #880 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 01:23 AM
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Two fantastic posts here Matt, I don't often take the time to highlight someones contributions to these threads, but those two long posts with the waveform analysis are truly fascinating and enlightening. A very useful tool for making visual assessments post calibration of a display.



PS - Out of interest what software do you use for the waveform analysis?
Thanks very much. That is DaVinci Resolve, which is colour grading software. It's actually free.

It requires pulling a screen shot first then just looking at it with the right settings in resolve and you can work out the particulars from there.

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post #881 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Because it's the industry native contrast standard for digital cinema projection. You said people were "making up BS performance standards" and that 2000:1 was ridiculous and substandard so I presented the industry standard for contrast in digital cinema projection, which happens to be 2000:1.

What performance standard were you referring to that requires 10000:1 min native or whatever value you are arguing for?

Finally, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. One can weigh a balance of contrast, brightness, functionality, and cost. You seem to be fully focused on native contrast at expense of all other aspects - instead, my thought is 2000:1 native is more than "good enough" to fulfill the contrast piece and that number is backed up by industry digital cinema standards. Then I have other considerations like solid state functionality, brightness, cost, etc. More to it than just native contrast.
As I understand the 2000:1 isnt the maximum standard for DCI it is the MINIMUM requirement for the standard. I think everyone is in agreement that higher contrast on/off is better than lower.

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post #882 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 01:41 AM
 
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Thanks very much. That is DaVinci Resolve, which is colour grading software. It's actually free.

It requires pulling a screen shot first then just looking at it with the right settings in resolve and you can work out the particulars from there.

I used to use oscilloscopes, waveform monitors and vector scopes all the time when I was in TV Broadcasting. They are very useful tools to use to get things correct and on spec as you detailed in those awesome posts of yours Javs! Thank you for those!

Something good that I use as a quick comparison or glimpse at what things are actually doing in my projections is the Cine Meter II app on my iPhone. I’m sure it’s not the most accurate but it at least gives you an idea of what’s going on video wise and a way to maybe contrast two differing settings, projectors, etc. definitely a good tool for the layman to play with. If anyone has a tip for a better one I’m open to suggestions.
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post #883 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 01:46 AM
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Critical color grading is done on OLED screens by the colorist then projected if need be for others to see but the critical monitor is almost always a small OLED.

They also use OLEDs on set as video playback in the video village, so actually, the director is looking at infinity contrast on the day they actually shoot and expose the image. Not to mention also most cameras have a small 5-7 inch OLED as a viewfinder, so even the DOP is looking at an OLED too.

I've been on a lot of sets I can tell you this is what happens.
THis is what you meant


You can clearly see that Vincent was having an orgasm reviewing this gem!

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And you know this because?? Or do you just assume that they are not involved. MOST DP's are involved with the deliverables for content, which are typically done at the same time. So they sign off on MULTIPLE grades of the movie that are made for cinema, home, streaming, and any other format they plan to deliver in. The director himself my not be in the room, but the DP is typically the one that makes the most decisions on that front, and he is hired by the director specifically for that function.



The people in the cinema saw a grade that is made specifically for that delivery, a digital cinema package that has a completely different gamma and color gamut than consumer video. So who really cares what they did or did not see in the cinema, because it has little to do with what you see at home in terms of picture presentation.



Sony BVM and OLEDs have been used in grading rooms for a long time. You'll also find a lot of Panasonic displays. For projectors, it depends on the location. A lot use cinema grade DLPs, some use Sony and JVC consumer projectors and some don't use projectors at all. But even in the cases of using consumer projectors, they are usually calibrated to D65/P3 with a LUT box in front of them, so again, not the same as the average consumer. They also use a waveform monitor in conjunction with the work being done.
Do you know for sure the Director's involved most of the time?

I am pretty sure most of the Catalog releases does not even involve the directors...

And, also, as I said, just because a director may be involved, does not mean the director's intent 'is the best way to watch a movie'... not all directors are created equal.. the 3rd cause of death in the USA is 'killed by doctors'... so, not all doctors are created equal... I have seen more 'lousy visuals from directors' than good ones to be honest.. .so, if you have a master transferer that does a better job, i'll go with that, rather than the 'director's intent'...

As i said, i don't really care about the Director's intent at all,... only the end product... I generally adjust the picture modes on a movie by movie basis until i get an image that looks best to me...

Here's a reason why many BluRay releases aren't very good... and they divert from the initial releases on theaters... so, to say it's the director's intent isn't very accurate...

https://www.tested.com/art/movies/85...created-equal/

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You do not think the director over looks it? He watches it before its released I am sure.....

Can't keep the toys forever........
I honestly think a lot of movies that are transfered to BluRay does not involve the directors... they are too busy.. only some directors like James Cameron who takes the time to ensure the quality of transfers...

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As I said to Kris, if you come into with an open mind knowing it’s not the black level king (but how many are really, and it is very respectable and not something that makes you lose the experience?) and your eyes stay on the image, you’ll be blown away at the picture you’re seeing for WAY less than it’s only peers that have only better blacks.
Open mind, without being 'too entrenched' with confirmation bias is what we need more in this world...

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I have a grey 1.3 gain screen and I can definitely say without a doubt my blacks look better than on a white screen. Not sure if the fact that it’s also an ambient light rejection type that is giving a darker black perception.

Here is a sample vid of my nx9 on my grey screen 🙂. With the DI off too. Manual iris set to 0.

EXACTLY... !!

I was blown away at how much lower the black floor was with my 1.8 gain silver screen... it's like magic... much higher black floor reduction than those 'grey' low gain screen... even the SONY guys was jaw-dropped... they were inspecting my screen lolz... why so black... why so black.. haha...

And the blacks also have a different property to it.. it's really those 'real to life' blacks you see when you go out in the evening.. the 'really sharp, shiny blacks'... when i was reviewing the JVCs, the Z1, NX9, and even the blackest of blacks, the X790, etc.. when projected onto a white screen, the backs were LESS '3D-ish'.. more 'matte looking', more like a 'blob of black'.. basically less real... the silver screen make the blacks invisible.. like i can see right into the screen... it's addictive...

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post #884 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 01:47 AM
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Thanks very much. That is DaVinci Resolve, which is colour grading software. It's actually free.

It requires pulling a screen shot first then just looking at it with the right settings in resolve and you can work out the particulars from there.
Free? Wow that doesn't happen very often. Downloading now, thanks.
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post #885 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 01:55 AM
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I used to use oscilloscopes, waveform monitors and vector scopes all the time when I was in TV Broadcasting. They are very useful tools to use to get things correct and on spec as you detailed in those awesome posts of yours Javs! Thank you for those!

Something good that I use as a quick comparison or glimpse at what things are actually doing in my projections is the Cine Meter II app on my iPhone. I’m sure it’s not the most accurate but it at least gives you an idea of what’s going on video wise and a way to maybe contrast two differing settings, projectors, etc. definitely a good tool for the layman to play with. If anyone has a tip for a better one I’m open to suggestions.
The iphone trick is something similar to what i do on my production MacPro.

I have the 4k logitech webcam. I run the cam into the Mac via usb and into a live waveform vectorscope program running on the Mac. This combination has let me map differences in tone mapping on the waveform app. This let me take ChadB's custom curves and then use the onboard jvc tone mapping controls to get as close as possible. Granted this setup would never be mistaken as a calibration took. However, because the set up allows stable live comparisons of the projected image, it has proven accurate enough for the use i mentioned. Especially when experimenting with way picture level, black tone and white tone interact to find a good balance.
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post #886 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 02:03 AM
 
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The iphone trick is something similar to what i do on my production MacPro.



I have the 4k logitech webcam. I run the cam into the Mac via usb and into a live waveform vectorscope program running on the Mac. This combination has let me map differences in tone mapping on the waveform app. This let me take ChadB's custom curves and then use the onboard jvc tone mapping controls to get as close as possible. Granted this setup would never be mistaken as a calibration took. However, because the set up allows stable live comparisons of the projected image, it has proven accurate enough for the use i mentioned. Especially when experimenting with way picture level, black tone and white tone interact to find a good balance.

Great tip! Do you know if there’s a Windows version?
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post #887 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 02:08 AM
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Great tip! Do you know if there’s a Windows version?
Here is the app. Looks to be OSx only but you might be able to use the info as a reference to find something similar for windows. I recall being able to find windows solutions and this was the only OSx alternative.

https://www.divergentmedia.com/scopebox
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post #888 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 02:18 AM
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Great tip! Do you know if there’s a Windows version?
The semi stone age trick I used...

I zoomed the waveform as large as possible on a 4k 28" monitor. I taped up a transparency plastic over the waveform image on the monitor screen, and used a sharpie to mark various IRE values. Then when looking at the next source image going into the waveform, I could simply work to align the new image IRE values to the sharpie marks.

The HDR10+ patterns that include the IRE sweep, come up as nice sloping line, just like a gamma curve line.

Being able to save the original waveform internally as an overlay or underlay would have been nice, but is not available. The transparency markings served just as well.

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post #889 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 02:58 AM
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17 is suppose to be barely visible. Just barely no more.
The point is, that in order to get better blacks, some people will crush it so that it isn't visible from their seat, only from up close at the screen if at all, just like in the CRT days. That's a choice of course, but in context of 'directors intent', visible vs not visible has to be more in line with the intent if anyone cares about that.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #890 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 03:55 AM
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17 is suppose to be barely visible. Just barely no more.
I do hate the concept that 17 is set by making it "just visible". It's got to be bogus. It is "visible" next to 16, darker than 18, and that's about all you can really say about it by eye.

16 is projector optical black. 235 is your peak D65 white. Once you've settled on target gamma (sounds like BT1886 ) then 17 isn't defined as "barely/just visible". It (and all the other levels) has a precise value which could be targeted during your gamma calibration, based on the gamma target, the peak white and the optical black values. It is not necessarily the lowest possible level your eye can distinguish as different vs 16. Whether or not you can actually display that correct level for a given combination of panel tech and calibration control is another matter...

If you're using calibration software, a pattern generator and a meter it should show you on screen what the correct value is for each level as you come out black (once you've set up the min/max/gamma target).
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I do hate the concept that 17 is set by making it "just visible". It's got to be bogus. It is "visible" next to 16, darker than 18, and that's about all you can really say about it by eye.

16 is projector optical black. 235 is your peak D65 white. Once you've settled on target gamma (sounds like BT1886 ) then 17 isn't defined as "barely/just visible". It (and all the other levels) has a precise value which could be targeted during your gamma calibration, based on the gamma target, the peak white and the optical black values. It is not necessarily the lowest possible level your eye can distinguish as different vs 16. Whether or not you can actually display that correct level for a given combination of panel tech and calibration control is another matter...

If you're using calibration software, a pattern generator and a meter it should show you on screen what the correct value is for each level as you come out black (once you've set up the min/max/gamma target).
What pattern would you use for this though James? I'm assuming a 5 IRE 10% window pattern is well above 17. Its something thats always bugged me that on a standard 21 point greyscale calibration, the majority of the lower end is left to the transition between 5 IRE and black. Thats why I was pleased when Jim announced the new 256 point greyscale to be introduced on the Radiance Pro as it should give an additional 11 points between 5 IRE and black (though I don't look forward to how long that will take to auto-cal).
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What pattern would you use for this though James? I'm assuming a 5 IRE 10% window pattern is well above 17. Its something thats always bugged me that on a standard 21 point greyscale calibration, the majority of the lower end is left to the transition between 5 IRE and black. Thats why I was pleased when Jim announced the new 256 point greyscale to be introduced on the Radiance Pro as it should give an additional 11 points between 5 IRE and black (though I don't look forward to how long that will take to auto-cal).
For right or wrong most recently I've been using full screen for everything with patches. We don't have any ABL concerns so I don't get why there is any benefit to windowed.

I've been holding off actually doing the gamma side of things - I'm collecting info at the mo, hence some of the original question that sparked this almighty departure. I'd kind of hoped we'd have the 256pt greyscale by now as it would certainly help make setup much easier. I don't think editing it by hand in the Radiance UI to tweak the bottom few levels would be a big deal.

In Lightspace you just have sliders driving the pattern generator, ranged between 1-255 (mapped into 16-235 by the Lumagen). You gang the RGB sliders together and can then click it up one at a time through the low levels, which shows the measured level, and the target level. My plan is to get to gamma that looks right all the way in the rest of the range, and then look at the various ways you can tweak it and the effects at the very lowest levels, to get the most accurate possible without compromising overly anything else.

That's the plan...
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As I understand the 2000:1 isnt the maximum standard for DCI it is the MINIMUM requirement for the standard. I think everyone is in agreement that higher contrast on/off is better than lower.
Contrast is not the only aspect of a projector. There is also brightness, light source, noise level, cost, lens quality, etc. These are all factors. Now, while you may not like 2000:1 native, I am fine with it to meet the contrast piece of the equation (often even lower native I am fine with, too, if there is good dynamic contrast to bring up the overall contrast) - and the industry standard for digital cinema projection agrees - that 2000:1 contrast is good enough (note these DCI projectors generally don't use dynamic contrast, so that 2000:1 contrast is not just native contrast but also max contrast for DCI compliant pjs that are spec'd 2000:1).

So in summary, if one wants to bring standards into it, there are digital cinema projection standards that say that 2000:1 is good enough. While more may be better, 2000:1 is the threshold of "good enough" per the digital cinema projection standards. You may have personal preferences for higher minimum contrast, but that is a personal preference and not an industry standard minimum for digital projection.

Everyone has their own priorities for what is important, and for myself & many others solid state lightsource is more important than ultra high contrast. That's not to say contrast is unimportant, but for me its not worth sacrificing solid state for 4000:1 native, for instance. Its also not worth spending an extra $15,000+ for higher contrast in my book. So, this is where DLP has been killing it in the price/performance ratio - its the only tech with a wide array of solid state projectors that are not $25k+.

So for myself and some others who prioritize solid state, its not so much about getting the 4k projector with the most contrast for the money. Instead, its more about getting the 4k solid state projector with "good enough" contrast and no other major issues (like offensive RBE for instance) that they will be a suitable replacement for our current 1080p solid state projectors. For instance I know some others are soon reviewing the ht9060/lk990 and this is really the question many potential buyers of these projectors have - do these HT9060/LK990 projectors have "good enough" contrast / brightness package that they won't be a large perceptual contrast downgrade from our current solid state projectors - i.e. my Vivitek H9090, other poster's Vango, or other people with the popular DPI Cine LED 1000. Whether they match a similarly priced lamp projector in contrast is irrelevant, as to folks like myself lamp projectors are irrelevant.
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Contrast is not the only aspect of a projector. There is also brightness, light source, noise level, cost, lens quality, etc. These are all factors. Now, while you may not like 2000:1 native, I am fine with it to meet the contrast piece of the equation (often even lower native I am fine with, too, if there is good dynamic contrast to bring up the overall contrast) - and the industry standard for digital cinema projection agrees - that 2000:1 contrast is good enough (note these DCI projectors generally don't use dynamic contrast, so that 2000:1 contrast is not just native contrast but also max contrast for DCI compliant pjs that are spec'd 2000:1).

So in summary, if one wants to bring standards into it, there are digital cinema projection standards that say that 2000:1 is good enough. While more may be better, 2000:1 is the threshold of "good enough" per the digital cinema projection standards. You may have personal preferences for higher minimum contrast, but that is a personal preference and not an industry standard minimum for digital projection.

Everyone has their own priorities for what is important, and for myself & many others solid state lightsource is more important than ultra high contrast. That's not to say contrast is unimportant, but for me its not worth sacrificing solid state for 4000:1 native, for instance. Its also not worth spending an extra $15,000+ for higher contrast in my book. So, this is where DLP has been killing it in the price/performance ratio - its the only tech with a wide array of solid state projectors that are not $25k+.

So for myself and some others who prioritize solid state, its not so much about getting the 4k projector with the most contrast for the money. Instead, its more about getting the 4k solid state projector with "good enough" contrast and no other major issues (like offensive RBE for instance) that they will be a suitable replacement for our current 1080p solid state projectors. For instance I know some others are soon reviewing the ht9060/lk990 and this is really the question many potential buyers of these projectors have - do these HT9060/LK990 projectors have "good enough" contrast / brightness package that they won't be a large perceptual contrast downgrade from our current solid state projectors - i.e. my Vivitek H9090, other poster's Vango, or other people with the popular DPI Cine LED 1000. Whether they match a similarly priced lamp projector in contrast is irrelevant, as to folks like myself lamp projectors are irrelevant.
Well said...
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Im talking about 99% of them, not 1 million dollar DLP's

Nobody puts those in grading suites.
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There's a million dollar one now? Christ, who can afford these things anymore.
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Not even selling your Ferrari would get you close to the downpayment
LOL! Not 1 million dollars

The entry level for high contrast DLP is as of right now $99,995

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As I understand the 2000:1 isnt the maximum standard for DCI it is the MINIMUM requirement for the standard. I think everyone is in agreement that higher contrast on/off is better than lower.
The maximum standard for DCI is 5000:1

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Contrast is not the only aspect of a projector. There is also brightness, light source, noise level, cost, lens quality, etc. These are all factors. Now, while you may not like 2000:1 native, I am fine with it to meet the contrast piece of the equation (often even lower native I am fine with, too, if there is good dynamic contrast to bring up the overall contrast) - and the industry standard for digital cinema projection agrees - that 2000:1 contrast is good enough (note these DCI projectors generally don't use dynamic contrast, so that 2000:1 contrast is not just native contrast but also max contrast for DCI compliant pjs that are spec'd 2000:1).

So in summary, if one wants to bring standards into it, there are digital cinema projection standards that say that 2000:1 is good enough. While more may be better, 2000:1 is the threshold of "good enough" per the digital cinema projection standards. You may have personal preferences for higher minimum contrast, but that is a personal preference and not an industry standard minimum for digital projection.

Everyone has their own priorities for what is important, and for myself & many others solid state lightsource is more important than ultra high contrast. That's not to say contrast is unimportant, but for me its not worth sacrificing solid state for 4000:1 native, for instance. Its also not worth spending an extra $15,000+ for higher contrast in my book. So, this is where DLP has been killing it in the price/performance ratio - its the only tech with a wide array of solid state projectors that are not $25k+.

So for myself and some others who prioritize solid state, its not so much about getting the 4k projector with the most contrast for the money. Instead, its more about getting the 4k solid state projector with "good enough" contrast and no other major issues (like offensive RBE for instance) that they will be a suitable replacement for our current 1080p solid state projectors. For instance I know some others are soon reviewing the ht9060/lk990 and this is really the question many potential buyers of these projectors have - do these HT9060/LK990 projectors have "good enough" contrast / brightness package that they won't be a large perceptual contrast downgrade from our current solid state projectors - i.e. my Vivitek H9090, other poster's Vango, or other people with the popular DPI Cine LED 1000. Whether they match a similarly priced lamp projector in contrast is irrelevant, as to folks like myself lamp projectors are irrelevant.
Damn right that contrast is not the only aspect of a projector. In fact, you can also add to that list all of (in no particular order): Chroma/Color, Gamma, Motion, Upscaling, Uniformity, Stability, Resolution, Sharpness & MTF, RGB Convergence, Chromatic Aberration, Streaking/Smearing/Ghosting/Blooming, Dynamic Iris/Dimming Performance (if applicable), Input Lag/Latency, Video Noise, HDR Tone-Mapping, Operating Noise and Sync Times... And I have probably missed out a few things too

**HOWEVER** according to both the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) and the Professional Video Alliance (PVA), who for many years have helped drive industry standards and train professional video calibrators worldwide, the single most apparent thing you see and the most important aspect that most influences good video image quality is in fact contrast, and hence the luminance dynamic range and black levels as well.

So whilst contrast is by no means the only aspect of a projector, it is the most important

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post #897 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 06:25 AM
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Damn right that contrast is not the only aspect of a projector. In fact, you can also add to that list all of (in no particular order): Chroma/Color, Gamma, Motion, Upscaling, Uniformity, Stability, Resolution, Sharpness & MTF, RGB Convergence, Chromatic Aberration, Streaking/Smearing/Ghosting/Blooming, Dynamic Iris/Dimming Performance (if applicable), Input Lag/Latency, Video Noise, HDR Tone-Mapping, Operating Noise and Sync Times... And I have probably missed out a few things too

**HOWEVER** according to both the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) and the Professional Video Alliance (PVA), who for many years have helped drive industry standards and train professional video calibrators worldwide, the single most apparent thing you see and the most important aspect that most influences good video image quality is in fact contrast, and hence the luminance dynamic range and black levels as well.

So whilst contrast is by no means the only aspect of a projector, it is the most important

You missed motion resolution!!

I am not doubting that contrast is important. More that, there are other things sometimes people prioritize more.

I'll give you an example from the TV market. When people switched from RP CRT to rear projection DLP, they lost contrast but gained digital 1920x1080 resolution & much lighter/smaller sets, less geometry issues. When people switched from rear projection to DLP to flat panel LCD they also lost contrast but gained smaller footprint and ditched the lamps (back at the time that happened, LCD was not as refined as today). When LCD crushed plasma in sales so badly that plasma became extinct, people lost the higher contrast option. When current LED LCD outsells OLED, people are electing the lower contrast option.

Now, some of those transitions are related to cost, but if you notice about half of them were not - half of them were about functionality - be it a smaller footprint TV, not having to deal with burn-in, energy savings, or... not having to ever worry about changing lamps, lamp strikes when you want to make a quick change, backup lamps, UPS to save lamp if power goes out, the rare but dreadful lamp explosions, etc

Back to the projector market - that that last bolded functionality improvement is one that some of us that switched to solid state projectors have gotten accustomed to, and do not want to give up. It is more attractive to me than more contrast. If you could have both, great, but right now there are no 4K UHD solid state options that are reasonably priced other than DLP - thus I will choose solid state over lamp with more contrast, as will many others.

When you check out that HT9060/LK990, keep that in mind - a lot of the people buying these pjs don't care if there is a lamp pj of similar price that has markedly better contrast. It's more about whether those newer 4k pjs are not a major downgrade from our current 1080p solid state projectors (in my case Vivitek H9090), i.e. that we're not giving up the farm just for 4K. If I can retain similar contrast to my Vivitek H9090, add 4k/3d/hdr, and get more brightness, I'll be happy as a clam regardless of lamp options in the same pricerange. In fact, since my H9090 isn't worth that much, I'd even consider one of these two as a 4K hdr/3d supplement to my current H9090 which I could continue to use for 1080p SDR if it outperforms these options in 1080p SDR.
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post #898 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 06:35 AM
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You missed motion resolution!!

I am not doubting that contrast is important. More that, there are other things sometimes people prioritize more.

I'll give you an example from the TV market. When people switched from RP CRT to rear projection DLP, they lost contrast but gained digital 1920x1080 resolution & much lighter/smaller sets. When people switched from rear projection to DLP to flat panel LCD they also lost contrast but gained smaller footprint and ditched the lamps (back at the time that happened, LCD was not as refined as today). When LCD crushed plasma in sales so badly that plasma became extinct, people lost the higher contrast option. When current LED LCD outsells OLED, people are electing the lower contrast option.

Now, some of those transitions are related to cost, but if you notice about half of them were not - half of them were about functionality - be it a smaller footprint TV, not having to deal with burn-in, energy savings, or... not having to ever worry about changing lamps, lamp strikes when you want to make a quick change, backup lamps, UPS to save lamp if power goes out, lamp explosions, etc

Back to the projector market - that that last bolded functionality improvement is one that some of us that switched to solid state projectors have gotten accustomed to, and do not want to give up. It is more attractive to me than more contrast. If you could have both, great, but right now there are no 4K UHD solid state options that are reasonably priced other than DLP - thus I will choose solid state over lamp with more contrast, as will many others.

When you check out that HT9060/LK990, keep that in mind - a lot of the people buying these pjs don't care if there is a lamp pj of similar price that has markedly better contrast. It's more about whether those newer 4k pjs are not a major downgrade from our current 1080p solid state projectors (in my case Vivitek H9090), i.e. that we're not giving up the farm just for 4K. If I can retain similar contrast to my Vivitek H9090 and get more brightness for HDR, I'll be happy as a clam regardless of lamp options in the same pricerange.
What wins the war with the public has more to do with marketing and timing than it has to do with what provides the best image. Look at Betamax vs VHS or HDDVD vs BD. In both cases the losing format provided the best image, starting out.
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post #899 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 06:39 AM
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What wins the war with the public has more to do with marketing and timing than it has to do with what provides the best image. Look at Betamax vs VHS or HDDVD vs BD. In both cases the losing format provided the best image, starting out.
Media formats are a whole different ballgame than electronics. There, content is king. Whichever format has the largest content library generally wins, assuming said library is affordable. But even in media formats, functionality is the major driver for big format changes - i.e.:
VHS > DVD - no longer have to rewind, smaller size, doesn't wear out or break like tape;
DVD > Blu-ray - this one was pure PQ, but this is why DVD is still hanging on to a huge chunk of the market - some refuse to switch to Blu-ray after over a decade since it offers no functionality improvement, this didn't happen with VHS > DVD - and some went straight from DVD to streaming for its functionality, despite it often looks worse than physical formats.
DVD > HD tape - failure as going backwards functionally despite being better PQ;
Blu-ray > 4K UHD again pure PQ and even less people switching than did DVD > Blu;
Physical > streaming - worse PQ and selection but people love the functionality improvements of instant playback and no media clutter that they'll put up with the downsides;
vinyl > cassette tape - worse audio quality in exchange for portability and higher durability;
cassette tape > CD - both a functionality and AQ improvement;
CD > SACD - failure because most thought CD sounded fine and again no functionality upgrade.
CD > 128kbps MP3s - worse quality than CD, but greater functionality through portability and far less space taken up.

Most display technology jumps (when people will throw away a working set for a new one) have more to do with functionality than image quality, the largest transition of which was the transition to flat panel TVs and the inability for anything except a flat panel to be marketable due to public not wanting the extra mass. People will eventually make PQ upgrades as well, its not just as much of a driver as functionality, and even then they will often elect the lower contrast option if its less money.

We are starting to see the same thing in projectors come around, where people like myself are willing to discard higher contrast for the functionality of a solid state light engine. That's why projectors like the UHZ65 sold well, and why there is such interest in the HT9060/LK990 - if native contrast was the only thing people cared about these wouldn't even be on the radar, but that's obviously not the case. The solid state light engine functionality is hugely important to some people, and I only predict that number will grow as more and more experience solid state pjs. I'd pay 30%-50% more for higher contrast 4K UHD solid state, assuming all other things equal, but not 300% more as appears to be the going rate.
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post #900 of 2791 Old 02-13-2019, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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You missed motion resolution!!

I am not doubting that contrast is important. More that, there are other things sometimes people prioritize more.

I'll give you an example from the TV market. When people switched from RP CRT to rear projection DLP, they lost contrast but gained digital 1920x1080 resolution & much lighter/smaller sets, less geometry issues. When people switched from rear projection to DLP to flat panel LCD they also lost contrast but gained smaller footprint and ditched the lamps (back at the time that happened, LCD was not as refined as today). When LCD crushed plasma in sales so badly that plasma became extinct, people lost the higher contrast option. When current LED LCD outsells OLED, people are electing the lower contrast option.

Now, some of those transitions are related to cost, but if you notice about half of them were not - half of them were about functionality - be it a smaller footprint TV, not having to deal with burn-in, energy savings, or... not having to ever worry about changing lamps, lamp strikes when you want to make a quick change, backup lamps, UPS to save lamp if power goes out, the rare but dreadful lamp explosions, etc

Back to the projector market - that that last bolded functionality improvement is one that some of us that switched to solid state projectors have gotten accustomed to, and do not want to give up. It is more attractive to me than more contrast. If you could have both, great, but right now there are no 4K UHD solid state options that are reasonably priced other than DLP - thus I will choose solid state over lamp with more contrast, as will many others.

When you check out that HT9060/LK990, keep that in mind - a lot of the people buying these pjs don't care if there is a lamp pj of similar price that has markedly better contrast. It's more about whether those newer 4k pjs are not a major downgrade from our current 1080p solid state projectors (in my case Vivitek H9090), i.e. that we're not giving up the farm just for 4K. If I can retain similar contrast to my Vivitek H9090, add 4k/3d/hdr, and get more brightness, I'll be happy as a clam regardless of lamp options in the same pricerange. In fact, since my H9090 isn't worth that much, I'd even consider one of these two as a 4K hdr/3d supplement to my current H9090 which I could continue to use for 1080p SDR if it outperforms these options in 1080p SDR.
Don't worry, I will be evaluating and comparing ALL aspects that influence video performance. So you will be able to simply pay attention to whichever aspects you personally consider to be the most important to you. I will be allocating scores with respect to all the various subcomponents of video performance as well

And by the way, I should add that we should not yet be making blanket statements regarding contrast being inferior with these projectors as compared with other competing LCoS projectors such as the SONYs and the JVCs because what with these being DLP I fully expect that the ANSI contrast will in fact measure significantly higher than the LCoS projectors, but the ON/OFF to measure higher with the LCoS projectors. So there will be a crossover point, which I will be revealing, and this is what is most important. In other words, what we need to see is exactly where the contrast performance crosses over and analyze how this relates to the Average Display Luminance (ADL) range wherein the majority of video content resides. Because it is perfectly possible to have comparatively much lower ON/OFF contrast with a projector but actually have significantly higher contrast performance throughout the majority of the range wherein video content resides. In fact, I am just wrapping up with respect to reviewing a DLP projector wherein this is precisely the case. So it will be interesting to see how these projectors measure in comparison in this regard


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