The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 03:33 AM
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what the comparison lacks in objective information, it makes up for in enthusiasm.
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post #122 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 05:19 AM
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I'm going to repost this here because it's comparison related:
Thanks for this, Nigel. Very encouraging, and very appropriate for this thread.

This is the type of reaction I would be hoping for going from my RS400 to either the NX7/DCR or NX9, either being 5 figure expenditures.

On the one hand, we have:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
BUT let me tell you this, the NX9 I have is one million times better than the X9900, its just blowing me away and I have the best and biggest smile on my face I have had in years!!!! My curved 145" ScopE screen looks absolutly amazing, its so good it takes my breath away!....I have amazing blacks on it, even though most said they would be worse than the X9900, but I dont see that at all, my blacks are amazing and so is everything else....!!
On the other hand, we have:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post
I spent this evening sampling a few titles. I started with INCEPTION and THE MATRIX in 4k. Those films are a little dark. The Matrix has a green teal purposely throughout most of its first act. I really thought both those titles would WOW me, but I think the fact that they are not well-lit films didn't give me a huge sense of improvement in picture quality.

Next, I went with BABY DRIVER, and there it was apparent how much better 4k was over the BD counterpart. The picture looked sharper. In fact, when I switched and compared scenes on the Blu-ray side, the picture definitely looked softer.

I am used to seeing 4k on my LG C8 OLED, and there the difference is just staggering. I mean, the picture looks night-and-day more stunning.

Projected, I don't see that kind of jump in PQ, but at the same time, I do see improved sharpness in the picture. I was kind of warned that I may or may not see a huge jump in projection 4k.

Black levels are not impressing me that much either. However, again, I am so used to seeing OLED 4k and I know it just won't match here.

3D looks fantastic on the JVC. Can't say it looks better than it did on my Sony HW55ES. I would rate it about the same -- and that's a good thing -- because I was always very happy with the picture output.

Of course, I need to get this projector calibrated. However, out of the box, I am very happy with the picture quality. I am a little disappointed that there isn't a substantial jump in PQ here, but I think that's the nature of the beast when dealing with projection. I mean, I see the difference. I appreciate the difference. I think in time I am going to become more in tune with the improved sharpness level and of course, the calibration will bring out more nuances in the picture.
Now granted, these are not directly comparable situations. In the first situation, we're looking at the NX9 vs the X9900, with an A-Lens (if I'm understanding him correctly), in the second the NX7 vs Sony HW55ES, with no A-lens. And to be clear, I'm not implying either reaction is not fully justified, based on what they're seeing. And likely neither system is yet fully optimized, so it's perhaps premature to draw any firm conclusions. Then different setups, screens, rooms, etc. must be taken into consideration as well.

It just points out the difficulty in getting comparisons, to help us figure out what choice to make.

On the one hand, people like Arrow-AV, Kris Deering and a few others will do a superb job providing the technical performance dimension of these various projectors, using test patterns and so forth, which is clearly needed.

On the other, it is also clear that viewing actual content from actual seating distances does not necessarily or directly correlate with many of these specifications. And on top of that, it is extremely challenging to demonstrate this 'real-world' performance using still photos, let alone video.

I guess I'm just venting a little frustration, the difficulty inherent in making an informed choice, and trying to assess where in the performance/cost curve we would choose to be.

Nevertheless, please keep the comparisons coming, subjective, objective, everything. The more input the better, and I appreciate all the hard work being put in and shared by so many people here.

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post #123 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for this, Nigel. Very encouraging, and very appropriate for this thread.

This is the type of reaction I would be hoping for going from my RS400 to either the NX7/DCR or NX9, either being 5 figure expenditures.

On the one hand, we have: RapalloAV

On the other hand, we have: Ronald Epstein

Now granted, these are not directly comparable situations. In the first situation, we're looking at the NX9 vs the X9900, with an A-Lens (if I'm understanding him correctly), in the second the NX7 vs Sony HW55ES, with no A-lens.

And to be clear, I'm not implying either reaction is not fully justified, based on what they're seeing. And likely neither system is yet fully optimized, so it's perhaps premature to draw any firm conclusions. Then different setups, screens, rooms, etc. must be taken into consideration as well.

It just points out the difficulty in getting comparisons, to help us figure out what choice to make.

On the one hand, people like Arrow-AV, Kris Deering and a few others will do a superb job providing the technical performance dimension of these various projectors, using test patterns and so forth, which is clearly needed.

On the other, it is also clear that viewing actual content from actual seating distances does not necessarily or directly correlate with many of these specifications. And on top of that, it is extremely challenging to demonstrate this 'real-world' performance using still photos, let alone video.

I guess I'm just venting a little frustration, the difficulty inherent in making an informed choice, and trying to assess where in the performance/cost curve we would choose to be.

Nevertheless, please keep the comparisons coming, subjective, objective, everything. The more input the better, and I appreciate all the hard work being put in and shared by so many people here.
Firstly, you will likely find the comparisons that I will be doing will be both interesting and useful

Secondly, BOTH of those reactions make absolutely perfect sense to me. Firstly RapalloAV is operating his projector optimally including using a HTPC with MadVR, with frame-by-frame 'ultimate' HDR tone-mapping... Whereas Ronald Epstein is operating his out-of-the-box uncalibrated, and we don't know what iris or dynamic contrast settings he is currently using etc... etc... and his reference benchmark is an OLED TV

In other words, I have a feeling that if the two of them were to reverse positions and view eachothers projectors neither of them would be making the same comments, or let me put it this way, if Ronald were to view RapalloAV's unit he would probably be more impressed than he currently is; however, probably not as enthusiastically as RapalloAV given he is comparing the performance versus an OLED TV

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post #124 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Firstly, you will likely find the comparisons that I will be doing will be both interesting and useful
Of that I have no doubt!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Secondly, BOTH of those reactions make absolutely perfect sense to me. Firstly RapalloAV is operating his projector optimally including using a HTPC with MadVR, with frame-by-frame 'ultimate' HDR tone-mapping... Whereas Ronald Epstein is operating his out-of-the-box uncalibrated, and we don't know what iris or dynamic contrast settings he is currently using etc... etc... and his reference benchmark is an OLED TV

In other words, I have a feeling that if the two of them were to reverse positions and view eachothers projectors neither of them would be making the same comments, or let me put it this way, if Ronald were to view RapalloAV's unit he would probably be more impressed than he currently is; however, probably not as enthusiastically as RapalloAV given he is comparing the performance versus an OLED TV

Agreed. As I said in my post, their hardware and overall situations were not directly comparable, so perhaps it was unfair of me to juxtapose their comments.

What is most needed is direct, head-to-head comparisons, in the same environment, with as many variables controlled as possible, which is precisely what you, Kris Deering and others will be doing. And having trained eyes to describe, as best they can, the differences, the degree of differences, etc. provides the next level of comparison.

I've suggested this previously, and it may not be feasible, but it would be most interesting if there could also be a small 'panel' of observers when at least the 'real-world' viewing of actual content is done, to impartially, and hopefully in a 'blinded' fashion, score what they're seeing from each projector, using some sort of checklist of questions.

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post #125 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Did you see the email chain Kris, where I tested Nigels ADL patterns both Grey and White and I couldn't get my 9500 to do anything whatsoever dynamically? Not even 1% would trigger the iris to move at all.

Interesting. Looks like the DI is only active under 1% ADL.
Was your test on this with the DI set for all the way open to start? Because my RS640 DI was very active on scenes that were fairly bright where I thought it should be doing nothing. If you're starting at -11 or something to begin with, I think it makes sense that it does nothing until 1% ADL.

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post #126 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
I've suggested this previously, and it may not be feasible, but it would be most interesting if there could also be a small 'panel' of observers when at least the 'real-world' viewing of actual content is done, to impartially, and hopefully in a 'blinded' fashion, score what they're seeing from each projector, using some sort of checklist of questions.
Funny you should say this...

Because further to my own evaluations, reviews, and comparisons... this is EXACTLY what is going to be happening

The small panel of observers currently includes: @Wookii , @bobof , @SoulOfUniverse , @Archibald1 and hopefully @Bandyka

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post #127 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
I've suggested this previously, and it may not be feasible, but it would be most interesting if there could also be a small 'panel' of observers when at least the 'real-world' viewing of actual content is done, to impartially, and hopefully in a 'blinded' fashion, score what they're seeing from each projector, using some sort of checklist of questions.
Funny you should say this... [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Because further to my own evaluations, reviews, and comparisons... this is EXACTLY what is going to be happening [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

The small panel of observers currently includes: @Wookii , @bobof , @SoulOfUniverse , @Archibald1 and hopefully @Bandyka

<img src="https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/AVSForum/smilies/tango_face_wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
That will be fantastic! Can't wait to hear the results
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post #128 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 12:27 PM
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I think what some people need to realise is no two rooms will look the same, its dependant on so many things...
I have only used Nigels FOX test, full black and contrast/brightness 16/235 tests.
I have had every top of the range JVC since they first started.
I know what to look for but am not a calibrator.
After 35+ years in the top city projection rooms in Auckland and Sydney, I know what a good image looks like....
What my room will do to help any proj, other rooms may hinder good results...

To start, my room is a bat cave, the screen is large 145" scope Stewart microperf curved ST130, it makes my picture SING!
(All my other past woven screens used in this room made my pictures dull and lifeless)
I use a cineslide with an IscoIIIL lens, madvr with some magic sauce "high" settings and a 1080ti video card.
I can even play DVD through profiles created which improve the image using NGU-AA, the 1080ti card allows NGU SHARP VERY HIGH for upscaling BDs (this too helps and isn’t available on players)
Madvr does a lot to the image upscaling to 4K, I don’t use any enhancements on the NX9, no need to with madvr.

So coming from a X9900 to a NX9, these are the positive improvements I see.
Sharper
Better shadow detail
Better motion
Finally a great DI, without pumping
Better easy to use HDR
Brighter
Better blacks

I really haven’t had any negatives so far, except I wish they could still improve sync times. I haven’t seen the NX7 or 5, I don’t even wish to, Im over the moon with the NX9!
I don’t sell projectors, I’m not in the industry.

I had a friend come in from one of NZs top AV automation companies, they do very high end work in NZ, super yachts all over the world etc etc…, his comment was wow, it’s just like a giant oled.
I have two 65" LG oleds in the house and I prefer the NX9 any day!

The NX9 is the very best projector I have ever owned, it kills all the rest Ive had. I only ever had one Sony, that was the 1100, I will not venture back….

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post #129 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 12:42 PM
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Great feedback. Thanks Murray.
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post #130 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Was your test on this with the DI set for all the way open to start? Because my RS640 DI was very active on scenes that were fairly bright where I thought it should be doing nothing. If you're starting at -11 or something to begin with, I think it makes sense that it does nothing until 1% ADL.
Mate I tried everything believe me.

The eshift JVCs don't respond to over 1% adl dynamically.
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post #131 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 02:09 PM
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As everyone knows the room is as much a function of the projector's performance as the lens itself. I hope we can have a setting that has the best dynamic range for the highest performing unit to perform or reveal any shortcomings. The new JVC's would seem to have been range shifted up to support HDR and less than isolated environments, while give a 990 a cave and prepare to be amazed.

I have faith and look forward to the results.
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post #132 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 02:25 PM
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As everyone knows the room is as much a function of the projector's performance as the lens itself. I hope we can have a setting that has the best dynamic range for the highest performing unit to perform or reveal any shortcomings. The new JVC's would seem to have been range shifted up to support HDR and less than isolated environments, while give a 990 a cave and prepare to be amazed.

I have faith and look forward to the results.
+1 ... also shadow detail issues have been related to poor base gamma (gamma droop) and rectified with a calibration. Gamma droop elevates mid tones, which forces balancing via running darker gamma settings, which contributes to loss of shadow derail.

Also, i need to see gamma track comparisons to judge if enhanced shadow detail observations are in line or elevated gamma in the lower end.
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post #133 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 06:49 PM
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Mate I tried everything believe me.

The eshift JVCs don't respond to over 1% adl dynamically.
I don't think they respond in terms of iris movement, but we still see gamma shifting (obvious in color). I'm looking forward to seeing how the new models do with content I've had issues with in the past for gamma.
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post #134 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
....................let me tell you this, the NX9 I have is one million times better than the X9900, its just blowing me away and I have the best and biggest smile on my face I have had in years!!!! My curved 145" ScopE screen looks absolutely amazing, its so good it takes my breath away!
Just beautiful to see the unbridled enthusiasm......just beautiful.

I'm blown away with my X9900 at -15 on my 106" HP 2.4. The DI auto 1 is back in play at -15. 23fl. A full black screen is well almost full black. Looking forward to seeing some savvy reviews that break things down, including comparing the best contrast each projector is capable of and visual impressions.
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post #135 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 07:27 PM
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Surely they would need to test every machine to find out what the average mis-convergence actually is across all units....?
Why? The company could take a few random samples from each production run, like testing the ph at four corners of a swimming pool.

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My theory is they think it is the lesser of two evils. Auto zone convergence that has a supposedly high chance of sharpening the image up, or take pot luck with lens quality... which would put the kybosh on the improved QC theory...…
Anyway, the picture looks sharper with the preset zone turned off, at least on mine it does.
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post #136 of 2791 Old 01-29-2019, 08:19 PM
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Why? The company could take a few random samples from each production run, like testing the ph at four corners of a swimming pool.



Anyway, the picture looks sharper with the preset zone turned off, at least on mine it does.
Not sure if the right word is "sharper". With the QBF pattern I can see a HUGE difference with zone convergence OFF and ON but the sharpness looks almost the same. I think getting rid of the color shift that item 21 introduce in the picture when ON is what out eyes perceive like a more sharp picture while the reality is a more define and clear picture because there is no color shift. If you look a white text over blue background, with item 21 ON it looks like out of focus but what in reality you are seeing is a yellow color shift shadowing the white text. With item 21 OFF, the yellow shift under the white text is gone and that's why it looks sharper. I hope it makes sense
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post #137 of 2791 Old 01-30-2019, 03:08 AM
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Spoiler!
We better make sure Murray doesn’t demo a 4500 in his HT, hey Paul
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post #138 of 2791 Old 01-30-2019, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Mate I tried everything believe me.

The eshift JVCs don't respond to over 1% adl dynamically.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I don't think they respond in terms of iris movement, but we still see gamma shifting (obvious in color). I'm looking forward to seeing how the new models do with content I've had issues with in the past for gamma.
It's interesting that whilst the pre-existing eShift JVCs Dynamic Irises don't seemingly physically respond to 1% ADL (I have yet to test a 2018 model versus your 2017 model Javs to confirm whether this still applies to the 2018 models), the JVC RS3000/NX9's Dynamic Iris DOES physically respond to 1% ADL; where in fact the trigger point resides somewhere between 1% and 2% ADL

2% ADL+:




1% ADL:



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post #139 of 2791 Old 01-30-2019, 01:50 PM
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It does look like @ARROW-AV 's photos and @RapalloAV 's anecdotal account point to some interesting changes in the dynamic iris setup. I'm pretty sure when I played around with pure white small test patches on my X7900 a couple of weeks ago (0.1-1% in 0.1% increments) I saw only 3 different levels at auto 2 on my X7900; fully open at 0.9% and above, semi-closed from 0.1-0.8% and very closed at 0%. The addition of extra levels indicated in the photos has potential to improve the DI quite a lot I think. Maybe JVC have taken on board some of the feedback from us "haters" lol.

Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.
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post #140 of 2791 Old 01-30-2019, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It does look like @ARROW-AV 's photos and @RapalloAV 's anecdotal account point to some interesting changes in the dynamic iris setup. I'm pretty sure when I played around with pure white small test patches on my X7900 a couple of weeks ago (0.1-1% in 0.1% increments) I saw only 3 different levels at auto 2 on my X7900; fully open at 0.9% and above, semi-closed from 0.1-0.8% and very closed at 0%. The addition of extra levels indicated in the photos has potential to improve the DI quite a lot I think. Maybe JVC have taken on board some of the feedback from us "haters" lol.

Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.
Well here's 5 different DI levels with the JVC RS3000/NX9 for starters... and there might be more than this, but I'd need to test using smaller increments to confirm:

2% (and above) ADL:




1% ADL:




0.5% ADL:




0.25% ADL:



0% ADL:




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post #141 of 2791 Old 01-30-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Well here's 5 different DI levels with the JVC RS3000/NX9 for starters:
Yup I saw in the earlier post. Were these with white images or with grey?
I might give them a go on my X7900 at some point.
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post #142 of 2791 Old 01-30-2019, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Yup I saw in the earlier post. Were these with white images or with grey?
I might give them a go on my X7900 at some point.
These are the 5 test patterns that I used... 0%, 0.25%, 0.5%, 1%, and 2% ADL

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post #143 of 2791 Old 01-31-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
These are the 5 test patterns that I used... 0%, 0.25%, 0.5%, 1%, and 2% ADL

Nice job Nigel,
Finally, some contrast test patterns that actually measure what you see with movie content.
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post #144 of 2791 Old 02-01-2019, 09:43 PM
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Any tracking update Nigel :P ?
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post #145 of 2791 Old 02-01-2019, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Mate I tried everything believe me.

The eshift JVCs don't respond to over 1% adl dynamically.
Do you know about what ADL would be in this scene? The iris responds on it when switching between the girl and the guy starting at 21 seconds.
http://hifiandtheater.com/files/bull-trim.mkv

I think this is way brighter than 2%. Perhaps the RS640 is different than the RS620.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
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post #146 of 2791 Old 02-01-2019, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Do you know about what ADL would be in this scene? The iris responds on it when switching between the girl and the guy starting at 21 seconds.
http://hifiandtheater.com/files/bull-trim.mkv

I think this is way brighter than 2%. Perhaps the RS640 is different than the RS620.
Nope.

0.98% ADL at Gamma 2.2, even less at 2.4



0.87% ADL


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post #147 of 2791 Old 02-01-2019, 10:43 PM
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Another great Space shot to test dynamic contrast. This one goes deep and actually ends up beating Interstellar.

Once again, at Gamma 2.2... Most of us watch 2.4 so it will be a little less ADL if that's the case.

First Man.

1:48:04

0.086% ADL



Its moving away from camera, so as it gets further...


1:48:10

0.0039% ADL!


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post #148 of 2791 Old 02-01-2019, 10:48 PM
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... gave Thanos some of his scares?


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post #149 of 2791 Old 02-01-2019, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Nope.

0.98% ADL at Gamma 2.2, even less at 2.4

Spoiler!


0.87% ADL

Spoiler!
Thank you for measuring these. I'm actually surprised. I guess a ton of content we watch actually falls in this range.
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Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #150 of 2791 Old 02-01-2019, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Thank you for measuring these. I'm actually surprised. I guess a ton of content we watch actually falls in this range.
Yeah, most people think the ADL is level is a lot higher than it actually is. Looks like below 2% and down is why the JVC's look good, contrast wise and from 2% and up, are close to the same as the Sony projectors.
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