The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 54 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1591 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
That third picture.... Was that a starfield on a BenQ or (even worserer) a Sony being shown there?

Now I can see what some people mean!!
Lolz

What are you talking about...? That's EXCELLENT star field!

ps: 'worserer'... at least your word choice isn't as bad as my 'bankrupt'... hehe
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post #1592 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Goff View Post
The Oppo player is bankrupt and closed? Those are not attributes a product can have. A Blu-ray player can’t go bankrupt. Nor is it accurate to say that the company or division of the company that created and manufactured the player went bankrupt. They simply looked at the market and decided to stop manufacturing players and DACs. So you statement is nonsensical, and construed charitably it is incorrect.
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Oppo is not bankrupt. But I don't think English is the guy's first language either, and we probably should cut him a little leeway.

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post

Perhaps you should read just about any review on it then. None of them rave about the black levels on the sony laser.
Mark, are you including Art's review in that statement?
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post #1593 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 05:43 AM
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Dave, I have not seen the LK970, so I have not said much about its performance, but I have seen several high lumen DLP's. For some reason, I don't think the BenQ LK970, LK990 or HT9060 will exceed the performance of the DPI Insight 25,000 lumen native 8K projector that I have seen. I have also seen several other high lumen DLP projectors. In my opinion all of them have looked great on bright content and all of them have not looked so great on dark content. One thing these DLP's do excel at is lighting up very large low gain screens.
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post #1594 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Nah you've been spouting a lot of misinformation about how fantastic the black levels are in scenes with star fields on that sony and it's misinformation pure and simple. Sorry. It's fine if you say you're happy with how those scenes look. If some poor guy reads that and buys a sony sight unseen and is disappointed by the black levels, he should at least know what he's getting into. That's all.
I don't think that something that can largely be down to personal perception, based on numerous factors, can be flogged as 'misinformation'.
Any more than me saying I think brussels sprouts are the sweetest vegetable and you not agreeing with me. It is personal to a very large degree.

It is also down to what people personally find acceptable; And I would hope anyone who buys a piece of kit that doesn't look or perform how they expect, would exchange it for something else.

You are a self confessed black level junkie. Great.
Accept that others can, do and will see it differently.
Stick to the discussions of what you own if you don't like it and stop trying to tell others they are wrong.
They are no more wrong than you in their personal preferences about anything!
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post #1595 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Oppo is not bankrupt. But I don't think English is the guy's first language either, and we probably should cut him a little leeway.
haha.. good catch... you're gonna have to deal with my Engrish!



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Mark, are you including Art's review in that statement?
I have included many reviews for him... from all the reviews i could find on this projector, none used the word 'poor' yet... but definitely lots of 'excellent, best ever to date, significant, sublime, inky, etc'
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post #1596 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Thank you for this post. Super useful. No one is being attacked for liking something. They're being corrected for representing it for something it's not. If you'd come in here and said how happy you were with your new sony no one would say anything other than "congrats that's a great projector".


The difference in making 'an observation', or a 'rational, well reasoned comment' and 'an attack', are purely down to how it is put across by the posting person.....

Maybe if you reeled it in a bit and didn't make it sound like you are on a JVC black levels are king 'crusade', then people would engage more proactively with you instead of simply hitting back and digging their heels in?

Just saying....
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post #1597 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 05:51 AM
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TODAY, I tried my luck by asking Sony to loan me their 870ES to compare with the 760ES they already loaned me...

And to my surprised, they said OK.. haha... but they have an event on the 27th to show off the 870 to the public and they want me to give my own opinion on it.. maybe a 10 min speech...

So, they'll be bringing it to my home a few days earlier...

I guess they were impressed with my room and the screen i had that made their projectors shine (which I still say brought the 'perceived' black floor down several levels).. again, don't ask me to explain the physics... it just does.. and it didn't make the image dimmer like low gain screen does..

I'll definitely report my 'subjective' opinion on the differences i see... it won't change my mind about buying the 760 though, cause budget is the real 'villian here'... haha
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post #1598 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Dude give it a rest. Saying something probably looks good is not misinformation unless it looks like crap. Are you saying ti looks like crap and that's the misinformation?
You know that pub banter (which is how I am assuming you meant that) is very hard to convey in words and that it doesn't come over very well in a forum such as this unless you craft your words very carefully.

I don't think anyone here is out to get you, especially as I would bet very few (if any) of us have even met you.
But that could change if you insist on publishing comments that are obviously (to me anyway) incendiary in nature and designed to wind people up the wrong way.

Just try being polite.

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post #1599 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Lolz

What are you talking about...? That's EXCELLENT star field!

ps: 'worserer'... at least your word choice isn't as bad as my 'bankrupt'... hehe
Sorry, a little west country colloquialism there.

I was going to say 'even more worserer', but I think that would have been misconstrued more, even though it is the correct use of language in as far as the point I was trying to make.

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post #1600 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I don't think anyone has ever said they beat the majority of JVC's, but what they certainly aren't is 'poor'.

The blacks are a very good second to JVC, but blacks are not the only factor in the whole equation.....
Completely agree.

How the actual image looks overall is actually very important too, and the laser projectors I've seen all present a cleaner calmer, more 'solid' image. For me that makes a bigger difference to overall image quality than having darker greys (no projector projects black, only varying levels of grey). Plus, the full fade to black with complete blackout works really well and is seamless most of the time. It certainly adds more than it detracts. There also seem to be less artefacts with laser dimming than a lamp with a DI which may be less annoying for those that hate those kinds of distractions.

Unless you see those kinds of differences in split screen you can't appreciate the difference it can make, though now some people with the new 4K JVCs are starting to report a cleaner image which they prefer over the eshift models so they're starting to understand that more I think. Laser still has the edge though from what I've seen so far.
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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #1601 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
TODAY, I tried my luck by asking Sony to loan me their 870ES to compare with the 760ES they already loaned me...

And to my surprised, they said OK.. haha... but they have an event on the 27th to show off the 870 to the public and they want me to give my own opinion on it.. maybe a 10 min speech...

So, they'll be bringing it to my home a few days earlier...

I guess they were impressed with my room and the screen i had that made their projectors shine (which I still say brought the 'perceived' black floor down several levels).. again, don't ask me to explain the physics... it just does.. and it didn't make the image dimmer like low gain screen does..

I'll definitely report my 'subjective' opinion on the differences i see... it won't change my mind about buying the 760 though, cause budget is the real 'villian here'... haha
Damn, how did you manage that? Lucky so and so. How do I get one on loan...?

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post #1602 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
though now some people with the new 4K JVCs are starting to report a cleaner image which they prefer over the eshift models so they're starting to understand that more I think. Laser still has the edge though from what I've seen so far.
And I wonder how many of them, that were vehemently of the opinion not that long ago that you simply do not need any more than 1080 (e-shifted) for 4k, but have now found themselves with native 4k machines (even with the dreaded lesser contrast) and been completely bowled over by the picture?

Edited to add:

See post #7265 on the linked below page on the NX9/7/5 owners thread...
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57700530

"Only watch HDR so far and everything I threw at it looked like the cleanest 4k that I ever seen on the eshift models. I guess I was lying to myself for years that eshift was all I needed."

An owner making the exact same point!
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post #1603 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Sorry, a little west country colloquialism there.

I was going to say 'even more worserer', but I think that would have been misconstrued more, even though it is the correct use of language in as far as the point I was trying to make.
You're a hoot, Archibald.. perhaps in your past life, you're a bard, joker, or comedian of some sort...
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post #1604 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Damn, how did you manage that? Lucky so and so. How do I get one on loan...?
I know the local distributor and asked him to borrow me the 360ES (already discontinued now) and he was so impressed with my home cinema, he brought 4 sony guys (2 came down from Singapore, and 2 from their Malaysian office) to come take a look.. they were so impressed with their own projector in my room, lolz!

And then I asked them to borrow me the 760ES.. and they did... and i was awestruck with how good this projector is... i didn't think it would be this much different from my old 500ES.. but this is where i can throw in the terms 'night and day'... i didn't plan on spending all my money on a new projector but after seeing this, I just had to get it... it's just barely affordable to me (even with the good price i am getting).

And then i simply thought of asking if there's a chance they'll also borrow me the 870 to compare with the 760... the 870 is in high demand and are travelling around asia now.. but as soon as it gets here, they say they'll let me keep it for 2-3 days before their show event for it...

Long story short, i was lucky.. .
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post #1605 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
And I wonder how many of them, that were vehemently of the opinion not that long ago that you simply do not need any more than 1080 (e-shifted) for 4k, but have now found themselves with native 4k machines (even with the dreaded lesser contrast) and been completely bowled over by the picture?
Exactly, though I'm pretty sure it's because of the reduction in image noise rather than the increase in resolution. I know a guy who had an N5 on pre order, but cancelled it after being able to A/B the N5 with an eshift laser pj which he now uses instead
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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #1606 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
And I wonder how many of them, that were vehemently of the opinion not that long ago that you simply do not need any more than 1080 (e-shifted) for 4k, but have now found themselves with native 4k machines (even with the dreaded lesser contrast) and been completely bowled over by the picture?
I can already predict the future... the moment JVC introduce a laser version at the price point of the 760ES (asian pricing), there will be all the rave about lasers then...
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post #1607 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
You're a hoot, Archibald.. perhaps in your past life, you're a bard, joker, or comedian of some sort...
What can I say, I like making people chuckle.

Although, my brother doesn't, so we could never be the next chuckle brothers!

RIP Barry.

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post #1608 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Completely agree.

How the actual image looks overall is actually very important too, and the laser projectors I've seen all present a cleaner calmer, more 'solid' image. For me that makes a bigger difference to overall image quality than having darker greys (no projector projects black, only varying levels of grey). Plus, the full fade to black with complete blackout works really well and is seamless most of the time. It certainly adds more than it detracts. There also seem to be less artefacts with laser dimming than a lamp with a DI which may be less annoying for those that hate those kinds of distractions.
I was one of those guys that never found the JVC noisy picture to be bothersome or really noticeable. When I upgraded to the RS4500, I didn't really find the picture to be all that much calmer. I don't know why. But tonight I sold my RS640 and the buyer came by so we hooked it up to make sure it was all working. And boy did I sure notice that image is more noisy or busy or something. I'm not sure why I noticed it so much more going back to the RS640 from the RS4500 than going from RS640 to RS4500 originally.

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post #1609 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I can already predict the future... the moment JVC introduce a laser version at the price point of the 760ES (asian pricing), there will be all the rave about lasers then...
Just the notion of lasers as a thing, delights me!

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post #1610 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:25 AM
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I was one of those guys that never found the JVC noisy picture to be bothersome or really noticeable. When I upgraded to the RS4500, I didn't really find the picture to be all that much calmer. I don't know why. But tonight I sold my RS640 and the buyer came by so we hooked it up to make sure it was all working. And boy did I sure notice that image is more noisy or busy or something. I'm not sure why I noticed it so much more going back to the RS640 from the RS4500 than going from RS640 to RS4500 originally.
I would say it is simply because your brain has not needed to process it out for a while and has forgotten how to do it.

So, now you compare side by side after a while of watching with no shimmying pixels, you are bound to notice it big style.

The brains compensation mechanisms are awesome it must be said.
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post #1611 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:33 AM
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You know, I'm reading through these posts and it comes to me there's an apparent movement afoot in these price ranges. I see a growing audience that emphasizes other features over the absolute best black levels. This could be due to the dispensation of information on laser stability; it also could be due to needed brightness for the now beloved HDR. The fact remains; there are those who prefer exceptionally stable, bright images but will settle for "passing grade" low APL blacks and there are those who will tell them they are wrong for it.
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post #1612 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I was one of those guys that never found the JVC noisy picture to be bothersome or really noticeable. When I upgraded to the RS4500, I didn't really find the picture to be all that much calmer. I don't know why. But tonight I sold my RS640 and the buyer came by so we hooked it up to make sure it was all working. And boy did I sure notice that image is more noisy or busy or something. I'm not sure why I noticed it so much more going back to the RS640 from the RS4500 than going from RS640 to RS4500 originally.
I think possibly because most people accept the image noise as film grain and don't know it's not supposed to be there. When you come from a clean stable image to something that then has added grain which is constantly in motion, then you will notice it more - something moving stands out more than something that isn't. Like with 'Where's Wally' - very hard to find in a still picture, but if he was waving he'd stand out like a sore thumb and you'd see it immediately. That's why split screen comparisons can tell you so much more about two images.

I noticed something similar with Atmos - initial listening didn't sound a great deal different, but when you go back to 7.1 everything sounds 'flat' in comparison so I wouldn't want to go back to plain 7.1 now. I think it may be a case of not realising how good something is until it's gone.

The new 4K JVCs stil have some image noise and I did see some flicker in a test pattern (but not in normal content), so it's possible you would notice that difference if you compared them with your 4500.

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post #1613 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I have included many reviews for him... from all the reviews i could find on this projector, none used the word 'poor' yet... but definitely lots of 'excellent, best ever to date, significant, sublime, inky, etc'
I'll admit you sure did. To be honest, I'm shocked that so many found the blacks so good on the 885ES. Although, most of those were still referring to scenes I've described as city-scape at night type scenes not true black floor scenes. Again, those aren't the scenes I'm disputing here. I think all the Sonys I've seen (even the 285ES) were quite good on most those scenes.

(Continued at bottom of this post).


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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
You are a self confessed black level junkie. Great.
Accept that others can, do and will see it differently.

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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I don't think anyone has ever said they beat the majority of JVC's, but what they certainly aren't is 'poor'.

The blacks are a very good second to JVC
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
How "good" blacks are and the numerical threshold for "poor blacks" is 100% subjective and personal.
I guess there's just a very different tolerance for what one might consider "good" vs "poor" black levels as you guys have pointed out. I can accept this.

This is why it's so important to then talk about numbers, which cannot be disputed. But then we hear stuff like:
Quote:
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If specs were all that mattered and all you cared about, you wouldn’t have an RS4500.
The 885ES has a full dynamic contrast of 19000:1 as measured by Kris, whom I trust. I guess some find 19000:1 to be inky black and some find it to be quite poor. But to put it into context, all we can do is use the number to compare to other things. The Sony 695ES as measured by Aztar has a dynamic of around 80000:1. I did not find 80000:1 acceptable black performance - again, I'm an admitted black snob. I guess some do find it acceptable. But even those that do shouldn't argue that the difference between 80000:1 and 19000:1 is hard to notice, right? Is anyone disputing that?

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post #1614 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I would say it is simply because your brain has not needed to process it out for a while and has forgotten how to do it.

So, now you compare side by side after a while of watching with no shimmying pixels, you are bound to notice it big style.

The brains compensation mechanisms are awesome it must be said.
I am always a proponent that our brain adds a lot of processing that may still be unknown to us... One can measure stuff and then the brain will tell you different... case in point, the 695ES measures better blacks with dynamic dimming.. heck, the 360 prob also... but the 885ES comes out better to me subjectively (now that I have taped the green light). I think I read other reviewers say the same.. i'll see if i can dig it out...

My own guess is that the laser's 'intensity' of 'light' and 'color' is what makes the black seem blacker and cleaner...

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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
You know, I'm reading through these posts and it comes to me there's an apparent movement afoot in these price ranges. I see a growing audience that emphasizes other features over the absolute best black levels. This could be due to the dispensation of information on laser stability; it also could be due to needed brightness for the now beloved HDR. The fact remains; there are those who prefer exceptionally stable, bright images but will settle for "passing grade" low APL blacks and there are those who will tell them they are wrong for it.
Here's the thing though... i have had the 760 for many days now... Not once did i think the black levels were just 'passing grade'... i thought they were inky and great! I did think my 500ES were just passing after the panel degraded! These new Sonys panels do deliver much better contrast than their previous models (using the older panels). Plus, there's something about the Laser that adds something... i don't know, maybe intensity to the picture...

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I'll admit you sure did. To be honest, I'm shocked that so many found the blacks so good on the 885ES. Although, most of those were still referring to scenes I've described as city-scape at night type scenes not true black floor scenes. Again, those aren't the scenes I'm disputing here. I think all the Sonys I've seen (even the 285ES) were quite good on most those scenes.

I guess there's just a very different tolerance for what one might consider "good" vs "poor" black levels as you guys have pointed out. I can accept this.

The 885ES has a full dynamic contrast of 19000:1 as measured by Kris, whom I trust. I guess some find 19000:1 to be inky black and some find it to be quite poor. But to put it into context, all we can do is use the number to compare to other things. The Sony 695ES as measured by Aztar has a dynamic of around 80000:1. I did not find 80000:1 acceptable black performance - again, I'm an admitted black snob. I guess some do find it acceptable. But even those that do shouldn't argue that the difference between 80000:1 and 19000:1 is hard to notice, right? Is anyone disputing that?
Mark, have you seen the 885 in real life? So far I only see you quoting numbers..

BTW: Yes, the 695 has 4 times the dynamic contrast, but in real life, would it look 'blacker' than the 885?

Here's what Art from Projector Reviews has to say:

After that is a sequence of grayscale converted, and intentionally overexposed images of the same frame, first taken with the VW885ES – the Bond “night train” scene from Casino Royale, followed by the same scene from a few competitors and most other Sony 4K and 1080p projectors. The “competitors” include the Epson laser projector, their 5040UB (best in its class at black levels), and a JVC. As you can see, from the differences, only two of the others can best the VW885ES. The very best – is the JVC which is last. ....... The only other to beat this Sony is Sony’s own flagship, the VW5000ES at $60K. In a perfect world I could get all the exposures the same so that all the letterboxes were the same brightness, but that just isn’t practical.

Bottom line: As I’ve been telling folks for years, no one can match the JVCs on black levels. (Hey, their only true 4K projector is $10,000 more than this Sony). But this Sony is the next best thing (after the VW5000ES. That’s pretty awesome black level performance.
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post #1615 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I guess there's just a very different tolerance for what one might consider "good" vs "poor" black levels as you guys have pointed out. I can accept this.

This is why it's so important to then talk about numbers, which cannot be disputed. But then we hear stuff like:


The 885ES has a full dynamic contrast of 19000:1 as measured by Kris, whom I trust. I guess some find 19000:1 to be inky black and some find it to be quite poor. But to put it into context, all we can do is use the number to compare to other things. The Sony 695ES as measured by Aztar has a dynamic of around 80000:1. I did not find 80000:1 acceptable black performance - again, I'm an admitted black snob. I guess some do find it acceptable. But even those that do shouldn't argue that the difference between 80000:1 and 19000:1 is hard to notice, right? Is anyone disputing that?
In all fairness there, I think @daveharper was referring to the 4500 against your previous self confessed 'gold standard' JVC e-shifter not the Sony models.
That and that you appear to have gone back over your supposed absolute red lines of contrast and ultimate black levels with the laser JVC. But the 4500 is okay, because it beats the sony's in your opinion.
(That is how it looks from over here anyway).

Numbers are important as it gives quantifiable meaning to opinions, but it still doesn't mean that people will agree with the conclusion/sentiment.
Personal viewing is a must if one can arrange it.

And if you would like some quiet advice; That last bit, maybe instead of you saying 'But even those that do, shouldn't argue.....', you should have put 'But I can't see how even those that don't can argue....'.

Do you see the difference in how it comes across?
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post #1616 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
You know, I'm reading through these posts and it comes to me there's an apparent movement afoot in these price ranges. I see a growing audience that emphasizes other features over the absolute best black levels. This could be due to the dispensation of information on laser stability; it also could be due to needed brightness for the now beloved HDR. The fact remains; there are those who prefer exceptionally stable, bright images but will settle for "passing grade" low APL blacks and there are those who will tell them they are wrong for it.
I've been following this thread too, but I have not seen anyone tell someone they are wrong for liking a black level that's not the absolute deepest.
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post #1617 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 07:15 AM
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I've been following this thread too, but I have not seen anyone tell someone they are wrong for liking a black level that's not the absolute deepest.
I guess you missed this comment from mark then:

But I can't handle someone raving about how great its blacks are. They are not good. When you say that interstellar space scene has deep inky blacks on any sony, you're either lying or you're unable to judge.

BTW: There's no such things as the deepest blacks here... they are all way, way above what's achieved by my Samsung Superamoled screen... all of the projectors would be 'downright poor' compared to that... but just between what you can get with projectors, and that's all we can do, is relative blacks...

So for instance, if you have a true scale of black floor of 1 to 10, 1 being absolute black like in the Superamoled.. and 10 being say the worst of the current projectors.. all of them would be in the range of between 6-10... so, to say 6 is Excellent, and say, 7 is poor would be misleading...
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post #1618 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 07:16 AM
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I've been following this thread too, but I have not seen anyone tell someone they are wrong for liking a black level that's not the absolute deepest.
Not by actually saying the words 'you are wrong' no, but by instead, saying they are sub par, poor etc, etc, thereby it is inferred that the persons opinion of the blacks being good, is wrong.

Are you a politician?
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post #1619 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I guess you missed this comment from mark then:

But I can't handle someone raving about how great its blacks are. They are not good. When you say that interstellar space scene has deep inky blacks on any sony, you're either lying or you're unable to judge.
I don't see him saying they are wrong for liking it there. He is merely saying they are misrepresenting it by describing it as inky. Completely different points IMO.
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post #1620 of 2790 Old 03-06-2019, 07:18 AM
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And I wonder how many of them, that were vehemently of the opinion not that long ago that you simply do not need any more than 1080 (e-shifted) for 4k, but have now found themselves with native 4k machines (even with the dreaded lesser contrast) and been completely bowled over by the picture?

Edited to add:

See post #7265 on the linked below page on the NX9/7/5 owners thread...
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57700530

An owner making the exact same point!
In my opinion the more resolution the better. People use to debate that we didn't need 1080p because 720p was good enough until they saw 1080p video and their opinion suddenly changed. Exact same thing happened when 4K was just emerging and everyone was saying the e-shift was just as good and you couldn't notice a difference and that now seems to be changing.

I will say it right now - the same thing will happen when 8K comes around! People will say its not needed and 4K is good enough and then people will start seeing 8K and realize its way better.
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