The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 86 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2551 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
When you actually work out the percentage difference in contrast ratio between the JVC and Sony there appearance to be a very narrow window where the JVC significantly outperforms the Sony, namely 0% and by the time they had both reached 1% the percentage advantage has dropped to 30%, after this point on the scale provided the Sony starts win this battle, by 2% it’s switch by 22% in favour of Sony, by 5% it’s increased to 35% and by 10% it’s more the 50% in Sony’s favour.

I agree [email protected] that most content currently purchased is 1080P SDR but we you consider the majority of Projectors in use are cheaper 1080p models it is to be expected, of those that own $5k and above projectors I think it’s fair to assume most will be purchasing UHD Blurays, also an ever increasing amount of Amazon and Netflix content is HDR so I reckon in the future HDR performance will continue to be more important.

The underlining question is how much significance does the JVC’s huge advantage in the sub 1%ADL range make to the overall viewing experience?
I think the thing is, the darker the image, the more you notice the benefit of large contrast. The brighter the image is, the less you notice it. This is why people say that ANSI contrast differences are not that noticeable. When the screen is suppose to be all black and its more grey, you notice that tons more. JVC just happens to be in a sweet spot where its contrast gain is where it needs to be to appear to have better black performance. Those mid-way numbers where JVC is 4000 and sony is 6000 won't be noticeable as you need about double contrast to start really noticing. The ANSI difference is about 3x but people aren't noticing that much on really bright content. However, it is likely because ANSI requires a perfect room to realize it. (The brighter the image, the more can be reflected back onto the screen).
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post #2552 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I think the thing is, the darker the image, the more you notice the benefit of large contrast. The brighter the image is, the less you notice it. This is why people say that ANSI contrast differences are not that noticeable. When the screen is suppose to be all black and its more grey, you notice that tons more. JVC just happens to be in a sweet spot where its contrast gain is where it needs to be to appear to have better black performance. Those mid-way numbers where JVC is 4000 and sony is 6000 won't be noticeable as you need about double contrast to start really noticing. The ANSI difference is about 3x but people aren't noticing that much on really bright content. However, it is likely because ANSI requires a perfect room to realize it. (The brighter the image, the more can be reflected back onto the screen).
Excellent post @markmon1 . Could not have explained it better myself

The new JVCs have quite a bit of light scatter which manifests as blooming and streaking, particularly around bright highlights, which I would rather not be there. And this is indubtably impacting the contrast and black level performance, and hence the measurements as well.

Wherein, this does not seen to be present with the JVC RS4500/Z1 to anything like the same degree, so I am expecting that the measurements for the JVC RS4500/Z1 could very well outperform the JVC RS3000/NX9 accordingly. Probably not the peak ON/OFF but I am expecting 1% ADL and upwards to measure higher, so it will be interesting to see how the same measurements for the JVC RS4500/Z1 compare versus both the JVC RS3000/NX9 and SONY 995/870ES

Either way though, if the SONY 995/870ES measured over 250,000:1 ON/OFF contrast (which I was secretly hoping for given the SONY 1000ES/1100ES measured over 300,000:1) then I don't think anyone would be debating this issue, in fact, most of us would probably now own that projector

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post #2553 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:07 AM
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Here are my findings (roughly), take them for what they are:
Pretty much anything under around 10k:1 to Native is going to sometimes look a bit milky (and more so under 5k:1), regardless of dynamic contrast, even in darkish evening type scenes at an average fL...

The problem with trying to figure out how contrast is going to look is the changes often hit us suddenly.
Hence, at one brightness level doubling the contrast ratio may look miniscule and almost invisible, yet at another brightness level it may look a bit more pronounced.
Tripling to quadrupling the contrast is where it really gets much more pronounced overall, with the exception that at some points even doubling it may be signifcant.

Hence, I often found that native contrast in the lower ranges is VERY easy to see, hence going from 1000:1 to 1500:1 is noticeable, whereas 10k:1 to 15k:1 is barely noticeable.

The differences between 1000:1 and 10,000:1 is MUCH MUCH greater than 10,000:1 to 100,000:1 (not to the black floor, but to 'noticeable' intrascene contrast), unless you really crank up the gamma and brightness in the image. This is just from the non-linearity of how our eyes are interpreting the shadow detail in the scenes at our default gamma settings. Hence, our eyes will eventually crush the shadow detail even with small amounts of light in a scene if the native is high enough, so that makes it less and less important relatively (even though it's the same ratio, the relativeness is the intrascene contrast and how it is affecting your own iris in your eyes).

Even after 10k:1, it starts to get to the point where only darker and darker scenes are affected, until eventually you mainly notice the black floor difference and not actual intrascene contrast advantages. Below 10k:1, it seems intrascene is very noticeably affected by native contrast in numerous scenes. Not that having 100k:1 never affects intrascene contrast, it's just harder to notice.

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post #2554 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:14 AM
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Excellent post @markmon1

Either way though, if the SONY 995/870ES measured over 250,000:1 ON/OFF contrast (which I was secretly hoping for given the SONY 1000ES/1100ES measured over 300,000:1) then I don't think anyone would be debating this issue, in fact, most of us would probably now own that projector

How close is the VW570 to the VW1100?
I think it is Sony’s best offer in the contrast department right now.
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post #2555 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Here are my findings (roughly), take them for what they are:
Pretty much anything under around 10k:1 to Native is going to sometimes look a bit milky (and more so under 5k:1), regardless of dynamic contrast, even in darkish evening type scenes at an average fL...

The problem with trying to figure out how contrast is going to look is the changes often hit us suddenly.
Hence, at one brightness level doubling the contrast ratio may look miniscule and almost invisible, yet at another brightness level it may look a bit more pronounced.
Tripling to quadrupling the contrast is where it really gets much more pronounced overall, with the exception that at some points even doubling it may be signifcant.

Hence, I often found that native contrast in the lower ranges is VERY easy to see, hence going from 1000:1 to 1500:1 is noticeable, whereas 10k:1 to 15k:1 is barely noticeable.

The differences between 1000:1 and 10,000:1 is MUCH MUCH greater than 10,000:1 to 100,000:1 (not to the black floor, but to 'noticeable' intrascene contrast), unless you really crank up the gamma and brightness in the image. This is just from the non-linearity of how our eyes are interpreting bright scenes.

Even after 10k:1, it starts to get to the point where only darker and darker scenes are affected, until eventually you mainly notice the black floor difference and not actual intrascene contrast advantages.
Below 10k:1, it seems intrascene is very noticeably affected by native contrast in numerous scenes. Not that having 100k:1 never affects intrascene contrast, it's just harder to notice.
I think the pertinent point here is that circa 220,000:1 ON/OFF contrast is going to yield significantly superior and much more 'blacker looking' black levels with very low ADL content than only circa 24,000:1, unless the rate of decline coming out of black / between 0% - 1% ADL is extraordinarily shallow, as per is the case with the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS. So it's hardly surprising that the JVC significantly outperforms the SONY with respect to very low ADL content.

The fact of the matter is that this is arguably the most important range, because this is where differences in contrast and hence black levels are the most noticeable.

Hence, why I wish SONY would pull their finger out and improve the ON/OFF contrast performance of their projectors.

I mean seriously what the hell SONY, you absolutely nailed ithe contrast peformance with your first native 4K projector model, the 1000ES/1100ES, which measured peak ON/OFF over 300,000:1 but all SONY projector models since have nose-dived as far as ON/OFF contrast performance is concerned. Wherein, the difference in contrast performance between the 1000ES/1100ES, the flagship at the time, and the SONY 5000ES, the new flagship, is utterly ridiculous... we are talking over 300,000:1 versus only circa 10,000 - 15,000:1. That's at least 20 times worse ON/OFF contrast peformance for 3 times the price. I was never happy with this situation and still am not. JVC have achieved 220,000:1 ON/OFF contrast with native 4K, hell it actually measured circa 750,000:1 ON/OFF before JVC had to change the DI functionality via firmware update due to a bug. And SONY's very own 1000ES/1100ES measured over 300,000:1 ON/OFF. So why the hell do all the newer SONY models have such massively lower ON/OFF contrast performance? It does not make sense. Sort it out SONY please! Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top!

I preached to Andre Floyd SONY's head sales and marketing manager for SONY projectors regarding this as well as other matters until I was blue in the face. Andre recently quit SONY to go an work for Kalleidescape. Let's hope the new guy listens better and acts more regarding evolving the range towards achieving the best possible performance. Wherein, the fact of the matter is that we all want and deserve to be seeing SONY projectors with decent ON/OFF contrast performance again, as per the 1000ES/1100ES

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post #2556 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:31 AM
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I don't have all that much experience with HDR on projectors, so some people are probably 'torching it' and my findings are more applicable around 14 to 16 fL...

So other than a couple of showrooms and watching a projector at someone elses house, I've mostly watched HDR on TV's more than projectors.

However, logic dictates that with HDR, having higher native contrast should be more important, not less, since so many people are raising the black floor.
People keep saying the opposite, but I'm not buying it unless the tone mapping is now satisfying peoples habits of not cranking the peak white up as much.

I've got analysis paralysis lately when it comes to upgrading, I should have upgraded a long time ago probably.

I just figure the longer I wait, the better my upgrade will be

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post #2557 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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How close is the VW570 to the VW1100?
I think it is Sony’s best offer in the contrast department right now.
Well, we will soon know because I will be doing the full range of contrast measurements for the SONY 695ES/570ES as well

You are definitely right that it is Sony’s best offer in the ON/OFF contrast department right now... but the $10,000 model outperforming all of the $25,000 and $35,000 and $70,000 models in this regard is utterly ridiculous. The more expensive models should be offering BETTER performance not significantly WORSE ffs!

I was the first person in the world to report the 20 times worse contrast performance of the SONY 5000ES as compared with the pre-existing flagship, the 1100ES/1000ES. At the time nobody wanted to hear this and got upset with me for marking down the 5000ES in my initial review accordingly. Then Ken Whitcomb confirmed what I had reported and the rest is history.

The problem is that all of the newer models that followed the 5000ES, namely the 885/760ES and 995/870ES have only slightly improved upon the performance of the 5000ES in this regard, wherein the 995ES/870ES still has over 13 times worse ON/OFF contrast performance as compared with the 1000ES/1100ES...

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post #2558 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:36 AM
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Sony and some of the budget DLP brands are doing the same basic things, they are using only feature improvements as their selling points rather than contrast.

Hence, go to Laser pay this much more, add a DI or lens memory and pay this much more.

I don't really like it, the problem is the consumers are buying into it, and they won't stop until people stop being willing to pay an extra $10k for a non-UHP source.

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post #2559 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't have all that much experience with HDR on projectors, so some people are probably 'torching it' and my findings are more applicable around 14 to 16 fL...

So other than a couple of showrooms and watching a projector at someone elses house, I've mostly watched HDR on TV's more than projectors.

However, logic dictates that with HDR, having higher native contrast should be more important, not less, since so many people are raising the black floor.
People keep saying the opposite, but I'm not buying it unless the tone mapping is now satisfying peoples habits of not cranking the peak white up as much.

I've got analysis paralysis lately when it comes to upgrading, I should have upgraded a long time ago probably.

I just figure the longer I wait, the better my upgrade will be
You are absolutely correct. With HDR much higher peak luminance is sought after, which results in the black floor being raised as compared with SDR that is calibrated to the recommended 14 fL. And so this most certainly in itself raises the importance of good ON/OFF contrast performance.

But that's not all... Because the average ADL of movies is lower with HDR as compared with SDR, meaning that there is even more content that resides within the range 0 - 5% ADL. With SDR this is already over 50% of all movie content. With HDR it is even higher. Which is yet even more reason why good ON/OFF contrast performance is now more important than ever.

SONY really needs to sort their act out in this regard and significantly improve the ON/OFF contrast performance of it's projectors; and especially all of its 4K laser projectors!

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post #2560 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
How close is the VW570 to the VW1100?
I think it is Sony’s best offer in the contrast department right now.
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I don't have all that much experience with HDR on projectors, so some people are probably 'torching it' and my findings are more applicable around 14 to 16 fL...

So other than a couple of showrooms and watching a projector at someone elses house, I've mostly watched HDR on TV's more than projectors.

However, logic dictates that with HDR, having higher native contrast should be more important, not less, since so many people are raising the black floor.
People keep saying the opposite, but I'm not buying it unless the tone mapping is now satisfying peoples habits of not cranking the peak white up as much.

I've got analysis paralysis lately when it comes to upgrading, I should have upgraded a long time ago probably.

I just figure the longer I wait, the better my upgrade will be
I have a lot of clients who are existing SONY 695ES/570ES owners, who refused to consider purchasing either the SONY 885/760ES or SONY 995/870ES because they didn't want the significantly worse ON/OFF contrast performance. Many of these have ended up buying the new JVCs instead because they got fed up with waiting for SONY to improve things in this regard. And I have to say I don't disagree with their opinions. It really is utterly ludicrous that all of the more expensive SONY projectors have significantly worse ON/OFF contrast performance, meaning you are taking steps both forwards and backwards in video performance. Absolutely ridiculous situation TBH and I really hope SONY takes action to correct this and sooner rather than later

At the present time the ON/OFF contrast performance is JVC's trump card; wherein, SONY could so very easily take that away from them. All they need to do is improve the ON/OFF contrast performance of their projectors...

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post #2561 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:53 AM
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So true I’m actually one off them - I’m really considering JVC now.
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post #2562 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I think the thing is, the darker the image, the more you notice the benefit of large contrast. The brighter the image is, the less you notice it. This is why people say that ANSI contrast differences are not that noticeable. When the screen is suppose to be all black and its more grey, you notice that tons more. JVC just happens to be in a sweet spot where its contrast gain is where it needs to be to appear to have better black performance. Those mid-way numbers where JVC is 4000 and sony is 6000 won't be noticeable as you need about double contrast to start really noticing. The ANSI difference is about 3x but people aren't noticing that much on really bright content. However, it is likely because ANSI requires a perfect room to realize it. (The brighter the image, the more can be reflected back onto the screen).
I don’t disagree with this when viewed in a side by side comparison test and I have witnessed this myself where one machine has a more noticeable black level but when viewed in isolation hours later you don’t notice the black levels being dramatically worse. Maybe JVC owners will because it’s something they obsess about more than anyone else.
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post #2563 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 09:03 AM
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I think another thing that people don't talk about when it comes to contrast is the effects on gamma. There are essentially two ways to treat gamma when calibrating for movie playback in a dark room environment (assuming that is what we are using when dealing with high contrast projectors). The industry standard is BT1886, which is a 2.4 gamma that is perceptually compensated for the true measured black level, or there is a power gamma of 2.4, which does not have any compensation.

If you have a projector with a very high contrast level (lower black floor), with 1886 the roll off near black is not very drastic and your overall gamma is still closer to 2.4 overall (typically in the 2.35 range). This means you are coming out of black slowly and dark scenes will still look closer to the darker levels intended by the master. If you use a power 2.4 they will come out REALLY slow and the dark end will look very dark but there may be a bit of abruptness very close to black.

If you have a projector with a lower contrast level (higher black floor), the 1886 roll off is not nearly as steep so you have a roll off that extends much farther into the video range, sometimes as far as 40-50%. This means that not only is black higher, but the whole range of near black and into the mid-range to perceptually compensate. Average gamma falls into the 2.2 and even the 2.1 range. This has a drastic effect on darker content, even if it isn't full blacks. If you do a power gamma, the drastic gap between where black should be and the next step up in the gamma range is quite large making the near black information look poor.

BT1886 is essentially a tone map for the bottom end of the signal range. It was designed to compensate for the poor black levels of displays on the market and to give a perceptual balance coming out of black where the different image intensities were far more balanced to each other and mimic what a true 2.4 capable display would look like (OLED).

So having a high black floor is more than just how a display does with black, it effects the signal range quite a bit above black and the higher the black floor, the more you see it wash out what comes after. When you compare two displays that are calibrated to 1886 properly that have remarkably different contrast ratios, this becomes far more evident.

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post #2564 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 09:43 AM
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I don’t disagree with this when viewed in a side by side comparison test and I have witnessed this myself where one machine has a more noticeable black level but when viewed in isolation hours later you don’t notice the black levels being dramatically worse. Maybe JVC owners will because it’s something they obsess about more than anyone else.
I agree that the side-by-side comparisons reveal differences that likely will not be noticed in either machine when viewed by itself after a comparison, perhaps even soon after. And, at that point, it comes down to personal preference regarding potential trade-offs involved. With that, I'm learning more and more to simply enjoy what I've installed.

In any case, it's a great time to be a consumer in the projector landscape.
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post #2565 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 11:55 AM
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Well, we will soon know because I will be doing the full range of contrast measurements for the SONY 695ES/570ES as well

You are definitely right that it is Sony’s best offer in the ON/OFF contrast department right now... but the $10,000 model outperforming all of the $25,000 and $35,000 and $70,000 models in this regard is utterly ridiculous. The more expensive models should be offering BETTER performance not significantly WORSE ffs!

I was the first person in the world to report the 20 times worse contrast performance of the SONY 5000ES as compared with the pre-existing flagship, the 1100ES/1000ES. At the time nobody wanted to hear this and got upset with me for marking down the 5000ES in my initial review accordingly. Then Ken Whitcomb confirmed what I had reported and the rest is history.

The problem is that all of the newer models that followed the 5000ES, namely the 885/760ES and 995/870ES have only slightly improved upon the performance of the 5000ES in this regard, wherein the 995ES/870ES still has over 13 times worse ON/OFF contrast performance as compared with the 1000ES/1100ES...

Is there a 1100ES owner who would like to share me all the the Service menu settings? I can compare them with the 870ES settings and also test them regarding on how they impact the contrast performance, probably the differences in firmware are already huge and here are not many common settings anymore..
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post #2566 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Well, we will soon know because I will be doing the full range of contrast measurements for the SONY 695ES/570ES as well

You are definitely right that it is Sony’s best offer in the ON/OFF contrast department right now... but the $10,000 model outperforming all of the $25,000 and $35,000 and $70,000 models in this regard is utterly ridiculous. The more expensive models should be offering BETTER performance not significantly WORSE ffs!

I was the first person in the world to report the 20 times worse contrast performance of the SONY 5000ES as compared with the pre-existing flagship, the 1100ES/1000ES. At the time nobody wanted to hear this and got upset with me for marking down the 5000ES in my initial review accordingly. Then Ken Whitcomb confirmed what I had reported and the rest is history.

The problem is that all of the newer models that followed the 5000ES, namely the 885/760ES and 995/870ES have only slightly improved upon the performance of the 5000ES in this regard, wherein the 995ES/870ES still has over 13 times worse ON/OFF contrast performance as compared with the 1000ES/1100ES...

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Is there a 1100ES owner who would like to share me all the the Service menu settings? I can compare them with the 870ES settings and also test them regarding on how they impact the contrast performance, probably the differences in firmware are already huge and here are not many common settings anymore..
What are you trying to achieve here exactly?

Either way, measuring contrast performance of a SONY 1100ES as of today is not going to be very useful due to the SXRD panel degradation, which is very often severe...

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post #2567 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 01:12 PM
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The UK has been slower to get the LK990 than elsewhere it would seem, and I specifically want to evalaute the new model, not the old (LK970) model. But I hope to receive delivery of my BenQ LK990 soon;
What did you do with the other 10 projectors you have?
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post #2569 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Vladimirovich View Post
Good day!
About what advantage JVC before Sony on 0% -1,5% you speak?
This is the advantage that somehow magically arose after your last measurements of N9?



Explain, please, how did it happen that JVC doubled the contrast by 1% ???
On any device, the dynamic aperture does not double by 1%, and your previous measurements did not!
And then suddenly the magic![/QUOTE]

I provided the chart with the contrast in the 7000,000 range. That chart was from a different RS3000, in a different room and running early firmware.
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post #2570 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
When you actually work out the percentage difference in contrast ratio between the JVC and Sony there appearance to be a very narrow window where the JVC significantly outperforms the Sony, namely 0% and by the time they had both reached 1% the percentage advantage has dropped to 30%, after this point on the scale provided the Sony starts win this battle, by 2% it’s switch by 22% in favour of Sony, by 5% it’s increased to 35% and by 10% it’s more the 50% in Sony’s favour.

I agree [email protected] that most content currently purchased is 1080P SDR but we you consider the majority of Projectors in use are cheaper 1080p models it is to be expected, of those that own $5k and above projectors I think it’s fair to assume most will be purchasing UHD Blurays, also an ever increasing amount of Amazon and Netflix content is HDR so I reckon in the future HDR performance will continue to be more important.

The underlining question is how much significance does the JVC’s huge advantage in the sub 1%ADL range make to the overall viewing experience?
When you get into higher ADL content the eye is biased, due to all the light on the screen and the blacks look better, that is why in higher ADL content, you do not see a much difference, between the Sony and the JVC, or the DLP's. With lower ADL scenes, there is not enough brightness on the screen to bias the eye, so the actual contrast difference shows up more.
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post #2571 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I think the pertinent point here is that circa 220,000:1 ON/OFF contrast is going to yield significantly superior and much more 'blacker looking' black levels with very low ADL content than only circa 24,000:1, unless the rate of decline coming out of black / between 0% - 1% ADL is extraordinarily shallow, as per is the case with the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS. So it's hardly surprising that the JVC significantly outperforms the SONY with respect to very low ADL content.

The fact of the matter is that this is arguably the most important range, because this is where differences in contrast and hence black levels are the most noticeable.

Hence, why I wish SONY would pull their finger out and improve the ON/OFF contrast performance of their projectors.

I mean seriously what the hell SONY, you absolutely nailed ithe contrast peformance with your first native 4K projector model, the 1000ES/1100ES, which measured peak ON/OFF over 300,000:1 but all SONY projector models since have nose-dived as far as ON/OFF contrast performance is concerned. Wherein, the difference in contrast performance between the 1000ES/1100ES, the flagship at the time, and the SONY 5000ES, the new flagship, is utterly ridiculous... we are talking over 300,000:1 versus only circa 10,000 - 15,000:1. That's at least 20 times worse ON/OFF contrast peformance for 3 times the price. I was never happy with this situation and still am not. JVC have achieved 220,000:1 ON/OFF contrast with native 4K, hell it actually measured circa 750,000:1 ON/OFF before JVC had to change the DI functionality via firmware update due to a bug. And SONY's very own 1000ES/1100ES measured over 300,000:1 ON/OFF. So why the hell do all the newer SONY models have such massively lower ON/OFF contrast performance? It does not make sense. Sort it out SONY please! Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top!

I preached to Andre Floyd SONY's head sales and marketing manager for SONY projectors regarding this as well as other matters until I was blue in the face. Andre recently quit SONY to go an work for Kalleidescape. Let's hope the new guy listens better and acts more regarding evolving the range towards achieving the best possible performance. Wherein, the fact of the matter is that we all want and deserve to be seeing SONY projectors with decent ON/OFF contrast performance again, as per the 1000ES/1100ES

Unfortunately, it is not the US guys that you need to get through to.
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post #2572 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 04:08 PM
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The budget DLP makers (Optoma, Benq) are the worst offenders, they are not even attempting to improve the contrast.
There are mods you can do with some of these DLP's to increase the contrast a bit (though some are very difficult mods, it would be very easy for them), which goes to show you how little they care.

Most manufacturers are in a torch mode battle, they are trying to make more lumens, not more contrast.
Some are actually scared to increase contrast at the expense of lumens (looking at you Benq).

The lack of effort into even slightly improving the contrast (getting native to 2k:1+, and dynamic to 10k:1+) is pretty sad.

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post #2573 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The budget DLP makers (Optoma, Benq) are the worst offenders, they are not even attempting to improve the contrast.
There are mods you can do with some of these DLP's to increase the contrast a bit (though some are very difficult mods, it would be very easy for them), which goes to show you how little they care.

Most manufacturers are in a torch mode battle, they are trying to make more lumens, not more contrast.
Some are actually scared to increase contrast at the expense of lumens (looking at you Benq).

The lack of effort into even slightly improving the contrast (getting native to 2k:1+, and dynamic to 10k:1+) is pretty sad.
Couple issues here though. It honestly isn't BenQ or Optoma's fault, it is Texas Instruments that makes the chip they are using, and that chip took a big step back in overall contrast performance compared to the previous DC3/4 versions. To increase native contrast on the current chip requires a lot of light and an iris system, which is tough to do in a budget projector. As you get to above $5K and closer to $10K it definitely starts looking bad on your design if you are not doing something to try and maximize contrast more. Especially if you're advertising is claiming contrast ratios that you're not even remotely near, even with lots of contrast tricks.
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post #2574 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Couple issues here though. It honestly isn't BenQ or Optoma's fault, it is Texas Instruments that makes the chip they are using, and that chip took a big step back in overall contrast performance compared to the previous DC3/4 versions. To increase native contrast on the current chip requires a lot of light and an iris system, which is tough to do in a budget projector. As you get to above $5K and closer to $10K it definitely starts looking bad on your design if you are not doing something to try and maximize contrast more. Especially if you're advertising is claiming contrast ratios that you're not even remotely near, even with lots of contrast tricks.
It is both their faults. I know there are limitations in the chips, but that's only half the battle.

In some cases, things as simple as adding a piece of cardboard to block to the light leakage doubled the contrast.
There was no real difference in light output, Benq even admitted to the issue by showing a recessed lens design to help block the light in the ht3550.
It only took them 8 years to figure out that stray light hurts your contrast, even if it might not kill the native measurement, it also kills the ANSI contrast even worse.

Acer and Viewsonic are REALLY sloppy about it sometimes, I saw a Viewsonic with 220:1 Native Contrast pitched as an HT projector, it was awful.
The entire lens had a ring of light coming out of it in a diagonal fashion, the projector was a 'must mod' to fix it kind of thing.

In the old days, most consumers weren't as crazed about lumens, and DLP was still trying to fight LCOS.
Now that everyone that wants deeper blacks just goes LCOS, the DLP manufacturers don't care about contrast, regardless about TI's chips or not.

It's poor design, they are not 'designing' these projectors, they are plopping them together to release AS many models as possibly as quickly as possible.

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Last edited by coderguy; 05-05-2019 at 06:09 PM.
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post #2575 of 2790 Old 05-05-2019, 07:59 PM
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Both Sony and JVC have real engineering problems with contrast, so it's somewhat understandable for whatever reasons there are contrast variances across models.

I guarantee you if most of us had the design specs and the time to build a better DLP, we absolutely could, they just really aren't putting any effort into it.
Sure, it would not be nearly as bright, but it would have MUCH MUCH better contrast. They already figured out how to make projectors brighter,
so you'd have more room with applying coatings and iris designs than DLP's of the past. You might not get the same result due to inherent limitations in the chip, but who knows for sure.

The problem is, it just wouldn't sell that well, unless you can position it under $2500, because you are not going to win over the contrast folks in the above $4k arena, they are going to buy JVC or Sony.
Then there are the over $3k projectors that Benq and Optoma make, they carved their niche by being brighter and/or solid state light source, so they don't want to compete on contrast.

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post #2576 of 2790 Old 05-06-2019, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
When you get into higher ADL content the eye is biased, due to all the light on the screen and the blacks look better, that is why in higher ADL content, you do not see a much difference, between the Sony and the JVC, or the DLP's. With lower ADL scenes, there is not enough brightness on the screen to bias the eye, so the actual contrast difference shows up more.
In direct side by side comparisons I completely agree but in isolation you don’t notice this difference the same at all because you have no reference to base it on as you did before. At least that’s how I experienced it but like I have already said maybe JVC owners do notice this when others don’t because of their obsession with black levels and I don’t mean this in a condescending way it’s just something you pick up in their comments that it’s the most important thing.

Personally I think there are many things that make a projector amazing and this will be one of them but I wouldn’t say it’s any more important than colour, motion handling or sharpness to name a few. I hope one day I can justify spending this amount on my hobby and then can debate long and hard which brand/model I will get but until then I shall admire these magnificent machines with envious eyes.

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post #2577 of 2790 Old 05-06-2019, 12:15 AM
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We have the black velvet treatments in the room that still provide us a reference to notice.
Without the black velvet, I agree, it's harder to tell but then the image suffers in other ways.

However, I can pretty much setup a projector in my room without A/B'n, and immediately tell you where the black level falls.
I know because I then A/B, and it's exactly as I expected. I can only do this because I can compare it to the velvet which my room is covered in.

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post #2578 of 2790 Old 05-06-2019, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It is both their faults. I know there are limitations in the chips, but that's only half the battle.


Acer and Viewsonic are REALLY sloppy about it sometimes, I saw a Viewsonic with 220:1 Native Contrast pitched as an HT projector, it was awful.
The entire lens had a ring of light coming out of it in a diagonal fashion, the projector was a 'must mod' to fix it kind of thing.

In the old days, most consumers weren't as crazed about lumens, and DLP was still trying to fight LCOS.
Now that everyone that wants deeper blacks just goes LCOS, the DLP manufacturers don't care about contrast, regardless about TI's chips or not.
Do you still have your Viewsonic DLP? I ask because that was a 4000 lumen pj if I remember correctly. I am just curious on what led you to purchase this Projector knowing its faults. It is listed as 3000:1. That is not what shows up on the screen.Do you still have it. My parents have a Viewsonic 7822 HDL that is similar and both of us know its stated contrast exists only on the drawing board.My parents want more lumens, not more contrast. I would say most owners would want more lumens, it is just the 5% of projector owners who know what a calibrated image looks like. And they want more contrast. A number of members on this forum want more contrast.But just look here and see which group gets the most posters on a daily basis. I believe that is why the market is responding to more sales based on lumens.DLP is going for the masses. LCOS/SXRD gets to fight for the rest.
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post #2579 of 2790 Old 05-06-2019, 01:25 AM
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I dont have Game of thrones never watched the series


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
What we see is part reality and partly an illusion.

Overall, darkening the room with velvet is a benefit EVEN over just plain dark black,
even though it is possible that NOT every single dark scene you watch (in your mind's eye at least) will improve comparatively.
The mixed dark scenes and the bright scenes are affected in a HUGE way, even if you already have a dark black room and are just going darker with velvet.

How do I know, because I have moved a lot and have to keep re-doing my HT room, and have had all different levels of a BLACKED out room.

Also, I started with black sheets, then added the velvet, so I remember what it looks like with black sheets tacked to the ceiling vs. Black Velvet.

So you are missing out my friend, until you get the black velvet.

The only thing I have issues with is aesthetics, but that is also partly my poor decorating skills and my lack of budget I apply to decorating.
YOu don't have to convince me... i actualy already bought the black velvet... they are sitting around waiting for my sister to sew them into curtains... i figured out a way to make my room look great and also black as can be when i am watching a movie.. keyword 'curtains'.. basically just pull the curtains over both walls when watching movie and then put them back to enjoy the beauty of the room design...

My comment earlier on 'the blackest black' isn't the best is actually in response to the 'polar opposites people says about it... '... it's got nothing to do with what i myself belief or personally are going to do...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
When you actually work out the percentage difference in contrast ratio between the JVC and Sony there appearance to be a very narrow window where the JVC significantly outperforms the Sony, namely 0% and by the time they had both reached 1% the percentage advantage has dropped to 30%, after this point on the scale provided the Sony starts win this battle, by 2% it’s switch by 22% in favour of Sony, by 5% it’s increased to 35% and by 10% it’s more the 50% in Sony’s favour.

I agree [email protected] that most content currently purchased is 1080P SDR but we you consider the majority of Projectors in use are cheaper 1080p models it is to be expected, of those that own $5k and above projectors I think it’s fair to assume most will be purchasing UHD Blurays, also an ever increasing amount of Amazon and Netflix content is HDR so I reckon in the future HDR performance will continue to be more important.

The underlining question is how much significance does the JVC’s huge advantage in the sub 1%ADL range make to the overall viewing experience?
Exactly my point..

Overall, personally (I had to add this in as whenever anyone says they prefer a sony, they trigger a lot of unhappy people on these forums), i prefer the Sony overall... i enjoy popping images for 90% of the time, and then that so-called 'misty' 10%, i don't even notice them.. at least never as much as these side by side photos show... these side by side photos are essentially meaningless other than tell you 'projector A has better contrast than projector B' but they will never tell you how 'much difference in real perception' when you're just watching ONE projector at a time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
The BenQ LK990 isn't an expensive DLP, it costs circa $8,000

The BARCO LOKI, which uses exactly the same TI 0.67" 4M-pixel-shift resolution Single-Chip DLP DMD chipset, costs $90,000... Now THAT'S an expensive DLP!

All relative... you can literally buy a car for $8K, so it's expensive... $90K is a lifetime home mortgage for most people...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Nope... Sorry, that's not a knife... That costs a whopping $150,000; it's only dual RB laser; with only 1800:1 native ON/OFF contrast

Now THIS is a knife: Christie D4K40-RGB pure laser projector

40,000 Lumens for $85,000; it's FULL RGB laser; with 5000:1 native ON/OFF contrast; AND circa 95% of BT.2020 color gamut

That's not a knife...

This is a knife...



Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I think the pertinent point here is that circa 220,000:1 ON/OFF contrast is going to yield significantly superior and much more 'blacker looking' black levels with very low ADL content than only circa 24,000:1, unless the rate of decline coming out of black / between 0% - 1% ADL is extraordinarily shallow, as per is the case with the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS. So it's hardly surprising that the JVC significantly outperforms the SONY with respect to very low ADL content.

The fact of the matter is that this is arguably the most important range, because this is where differences in contrast and hence black levels are the most noticeable.

Hence, why I wish SONY would pull their finger out and improve the ON/OFF contrast performance of their projectors.

I mean seriously what the hell SONY, you absolutely nailed ithe contrast peformance with your first native 4K projector model, the 1000ES/1100ES, which measured peak ON/OFF over 300,000:1 but all SONY projector models since have nose-dived as far as ON/OFF contrast performance is concerned. Wherein, the difference in contrast performance between the 1000ES/1100ES, the flagship at the time, and the SONY 5000ES, the new flagship, is utterly ridiculous... we are talking over 300,000:1 versus only circa 10,000 - 15,000:1. That's at least 20 times worse ON/OFF contrast peformance for 3 times the price. I was never happy with this situation and still am not. JVC have achieved 220,000:1 ON/OFF contrast with native 4K, hell it actually measured circa 750,000:1 ON/OFF before JVC had to change the DI functionality via firmware update due to a bug. And SONY's very own 1000ES/1100ES measured over 300,000:1 ON/OFF. So why the hell do all the newer SONY models have such massively lower ON/OFF contrast performance? It does not make sense. Sort it out SONY please! Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top!

I preached to Andre Floyd SONY's head sales and marketing manager for SONY projectors regarding this as well as other matters until I was blue in the face. Andre recently quit SONY to go an work for Kalleidescape. Let's hope the new guy listens better and acts more regarding evolving the range towards achieving the best possible performance. Wherein, the fact of the matter is that we all want and deserve to be seeing SONY projectors with decent ON/OFF contrast performance again, as per the 1000ES/1100ES

My feeling is that all their 'good' engineers have left... i mean, if they had a newer better chip, how can the end product be inferior? or, even if they had the exact same chip, doesn't explain it... and that would also explain why no amount of reporting back to them works cause they no longer have the people to work on it...
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post #2580 of 2790 Old 05-06-2019, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by coug7669 View Post
Do you still have your Viewsonic DLP? I ask because that was a 4000 lumen pj if I remember correctly. I am just curious on what led you to purchase this Projector knowing its faults. It is listed as 3000:1. That is not what shows up on the screen.Do you still have it. My parents have a Viewsonic 7822 HDL that is similar and both of us know its stated contrast exists only on the drawing board.My parents want more lumens, not more contrast. I would say most owners would want more lumens, it is just the 5% of projector owners who know what a calibrated image looks like. And they want more contrast. A number of members on this forum want more contrast.But just look here and see which group gets the most posters on a daily basis. I believe that is why the market is responding to more sales based on lumens.DLP is going for the masses. LCOS/SXRD gets to fight for the rest.
You are pretty much right...

The Viewsonic I owned was a different one than the one I am speaking of, but some of the other Viewsonics are decent, no issue with Viewsonic, I just used them as an example that they are all doing it, some projectors worse than others.

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