The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 87 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2581 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
YOu don't have to convince me... i actualy already bought the black velvet... they are sitting around waiting for my sister to sew them into curtains... i figured out a way to make my room look great and also black as can be when i am watching a movie.. keyword 'curtains'.. basically just pull the curtains over both walls when watching movie and then put them back to enjoy the beauty of the room design...

... i enjoy popping images for 90% of the time, and then that so-called 'misty' 10%, i don't even notice them.. at least never as much as these side by side photos show... these side by side photos are essentially meaningless other than tell you 'projector A has better contrast than projector B' but they will never tell you how 'much difference in real perception' when you're just watching ONE projector at a time...
I understand what you're saying in the 2nd paragraph quoted above, and I think to some degree it is valid. Our perception of blacks and contrast are different in side-by-side comparisons vs one projector on its own. But as coderguy pointed out above, and as you indicate in the first paragraph above, there is a 'reference' value for black in the room, even when there is only one projector in there.

Honest question here - wouldn't a projector with poorer black levels and contrast be evident, when compared with the black screen frame (assuming you have one), and/or the black velvet around the screen, even though there is no other projector in the room?

Similarly, if someone has had a projector with excellent black levels and contrast in their room, wouldn't they have a 'reference' perception relative to those blacks, within the limits of visual and perceptual memory, such that a projector with poorer black levels would be more readily recognized, even without a side-by-side?
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post #2582 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
We have the black velvet treatments in the room that still provide us a reference to notice.
Without the black velvet, I agree, it's harder to tell but then the image suffers in other ways.

However, I can pretty much setup a projector in my room without A/B'n, and immediately tell you where the black level falls.
I know because I then A/B, and it's exactly as I expected. I can only do this because I can compare it to the velvet which my room is covered in.
You are basically confirming my point, it's more so a JVC owners gripe than anyone else. I'm not claiming the Epson I have has great contrast/black levels but I have seen some JVCs which each put up an awesome image and more recently a 4K Sony that I watched Solo on it, at not point did I say to myself these space scenes looked crap, the black looked very black to my eyes and I just reveled in the brilliant image in front of me.

I know for the purpose of testing these facts and figures are important but for me personally I think some people get hung up on these facts and figures more so than actually sitting and enjoying the movie. Or is it once you've lived long enough with this level of black that you crave it to the point that it's a must have and overrules all other factors?
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post #2583 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 04:10 AM
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You are basically confirming my point, it's more so a JVC owners gripe than anyone else. I'm not claiming the Epson I have has great contrast/black levels but I have seen some JVCs which each put up an awesome image and more recently a 4K Sony and watch Solo on it, at not point did I say to myself these space scenes looked crap, the black looked very black to my eyes and I just reveled in the brilliant image in front of me.

I know for the purpose of testing these facts and figures are important but for me personally I think some people get hung up on these facts and figures more so than actually sitting and enjoying the movie. Or is it once you've lived long enough with this level of black that you crave it to the point that it's a must have and overrules all other factors?
Yah, I actually crave more content that makes better use of those black levels. I think some of it is the vastness and magic of those space scenes in general.
Some of my favorite 'dark space scenes' were in BG: Blood and Chrome. The movie was just ok, but some of the shots where he was in the fighter, and the ship was near the asteroid were amazing.

Fair enough, I know one thing for sure, I'd definitely enjoy the Epson's black levels much more than the local cinemas I've been to.

Edit
Anyhow, my gripe with black levels has always been more about DLP than Sony or Epson.
Never thought the Epson's black levels were all that bad.

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post #2584 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 06:08 AM
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Yah, I actually crave more content that makes better use of those black levels. I think some of it is the vastness and magic of those space scenes in general.
Some of my favorite 'dark space scenes' were in BG: Blood and Chrome. The movie was just ok, but some of the shots where he was in the fighter, and the ship was near the asteroid were amazing.
That is what I thought would happen when owning a PJ that was particularly good at something, would you end up choosing a movie not because it’s great but because it plays to this strength.

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Fair enough, I know one thing for sure, I'd definitely enjoy the Epson's black levels much more than the local cinemas I've been to.

Anyhow, my gripe with black levels has always been more about DLP than Sony or Epson.
Never thought the Epson's black levels were all that bad.
The blacks are OK on the TW9400, definitely good enough to enjoy a space scene without thinking its milky grey, I’d call it very dark grey but not the black of the JVC. That said I reckon it makes a very good job of just about everything else and I’m might impressed by its HDR when combine with my Panasonic player.

Debating long and hard whether to change the projector next or keep the Epson and add a Lumagen, Gordon reckoned the Lumagen with make more a difference than the projector and after seeing the improvement I happen to agree though there’s always that niggle in the back of your mind.

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post #2585 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
In direct side by side comparisons I completely agree but in isolation you don’t notice this difference the same at all because you have no reference to base it on as you did before. At least that’s how I experienced it but like I have already said maybe JVC owners do notice this when others don’t because of their obsession with black levels and I don’t mean this in a condescending way it’s just something you pick up in their comments that it’s the most important thing.

Personally I think there are many things that make a projector amazing and this will be one of them but I wouldn’t say it’s any more important than colour, motion handling or sharpness to name a few. I hope one day I can justify spending this amount on my hobby and then can debate long and hard which brand/model I will get but until then I shall admire these magnificent machines with envious eyes.
I agree with the part in bold, up to a certain point, but in low ADL scenes, in a blacked out room, if you know what that scene should or could look like, then yes, you will notice it. And I am not saying that you should not consider the projector, due to this. It is just the trade off that you have to be willing to accept and for many with large low gain screens, it is a good trade off, as long as they do not see RBE.

You could use your argument for a 720P projector also, or any lessor performing projector. If you never see anything better and never compare, then 720P is good enough. Yet if compared side by side with a good 4K projector, the 720P projector will not hold up.
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post #2586 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 07:37 AM
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I agree with the part in bold, up to a certain point, but in low ADL scenes, in a blacked out room, if you know what that scene should or could look like, then yes, you will notice it. And I am not saying that you should not consider the projector, due to this. It is just the trade off that you have to be willing to accept and for many with large low gain screens, it is a good trade off, as long as they do not see RBE.
This is another example of how important absolute black is important to JVC owners where you actually still look for reference points in the screen border etc instead of enjoying the movie. It is an obsession no matter what way you look at it.

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You could use your argument for a 720P projector also, or any lessor performing projector. If you never see anything better and never compare, then 720P is good enough. Yet if compared side by side with a good 4K projector, the 720P projector will not hold up.
But what I saying is I have seen JVCs which are better than anything else regards to black levels so your argument to doesn’t hold water.

Are you saying you would prefer a 720p projector with killer black level over a 4K projector like my Epson with average black levels?
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post #2587 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 08:00 AM
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I understand what you're saying in the 2nd paragraph quoted above, and I think to some degree it is valid. Our perception of blacks and contrast are different in side-by-side comparisons vs one projector on its own. But as coderguy pointed out above, and as you indicate in the first paragraph above, there is a 'reference' value for black in the room, even when there is only one projector in there.

Honest question here - wouldn't a projector with poorer black levels and contrast be evident, when compared with the black screen frame (assuming you have one), and/or the black velvet around the screen, even though there is no other projector in the room?

Similarly, if someone has had a projector with excellent black levels and contrast in their room, wouldn't they have a 'reference' perception relative to those blacks, within the limits of visual and perceptual memory, such that a projector with poorer black levels would be more readily recognized, even without a side-by-side?
Yes and yes. After 17 years and 9 projectors owned, and dozens upon dozens seen at Cedia and CES ( and demo'd in my own theater, then sent packing ), black levels ( among other things ) are evident viewing a projector in a half way decent environment. Winning an Optoma UHD60 and testing that out in my theater did not need any side by side comparisons. Also, I don't need to sip 2 Buck Chuck wine prior to drinking 2001 Brunello to re-verify that it's swill. I have a very good memory. So, good, I can tell you that when I took my first lead fall on El Capitan in Yosemite, on pitch 16 of Dihedral Wall, I replaced the camming unit that blew on me with a well pounded sawed off 1 1/2" angle piton.

Those of us that lived with projectors with poor native contrast for years are conditioned to know exactly what to look for. It's like the old joke about makes something X rated - "I know it when i see it ".
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post #2588 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 08:03 AM
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Yes and yes. After 17 years and 9 projectors owned, and dozens upon dozens seen at Cedia and CES ( and demo'd in my own theater, then sent packing ), black levels ( among other things ) are evident viewing a projector in a half way decent environment. Winning an Optoma UHD60 and testing that out in my theater did not need any side by side comparisons. Also, I don't need to sip 2 Buck Chuck wine prior to drinking 2001 Brunello to re-verify that it's swill. I have a very good memory. So, good, I can tell you that when I took my first lead fall on El Capitan in Yosemite, on pitch 16 of Dihedral Wall, I replaced the camming unit that blew on me with a well pounded sawed off 1 1/2" angle piton.
I will never understand people who scale near vertical rock faces. Mainly because I would almost certainly die if I did it. Stuff of nightmares for me.

Skiing is a different matter, but at least that's relatively fine if you fall.
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post #2589 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 08:05 AM
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I will never understand people who scale near vertical rock faces. Mainly because I would almost certainly die if I did it. Stuff of nightmares for me.

Skiing is a different matter, but at least that's relatively fine if you fall.
Until you collide with a snowboarder at 50 MPH ( or a tree ).
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post #2590 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
This is another example of how important absolute black is important to JVC owners where you actually still look for reference points in the screen border etc instead of enjoying the movie. It is an obsession no matter what way you look at it.



But what I saying is I have seen JVCs which are better than anything else regards to black levels so your argument to doesn’t hold water.

Are you saying you would prefer a 720p projector with killer black level over a 4K projector like my Epson with average black levels?
That is not what I am saying at all. Just said if you have never seen anything better, then what you have, you will always consider good. It is all about your point of reference and what you have experienced.
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post #2591 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 12:04 PM
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That is not what I am saying at all. Just said if you have never seen anything better, then what you have, you will always consider good. It is all about your point of reference and what you have experienced.
I’m just trying to get a gauge for how important black levels are to you. Is it more important than sharpness, is it more important than colours, is it more important than motion handling?

The point I have continued to make is even when I have seen JVC vs other side by side comparisons where the superior black levels are very noticeable once hours late in isolation those inferior blacks (Sony) didn’t look that bad, in fact they looked very good.

Now maybe if I lived with a JVC for long enough I might go out of my way to look for this which is very possible but from an outsider looking in I can’t see it as that big of a deal, like it’s not like we are talking about DLP projector levels of black we are talking about Sony which is almost as good right down to 1%.
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post #2592 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 12:30 PM
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I’m just trying to get a gauge for how important black levels are to you. Is it more important than sharpness, is it more important than colours, is it more important than motion handling?
I think you are setting up a false dilemma. Any one of those factors if implemented poorly enough could ruin a projector even if it were perfect with all of the others. Blackness could be the most important aspect to me and yet the blackest projector would still be unacceptable if the image was a fuzzy mess of inaccurate color.
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post #2593 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 01:26 PM
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I think you are setting up a false dilemma. Any one of those factors if implemented poorly enough could ruin a projector even if it were perfect with all of the others. Blackness could be the most important aspect to me and yet the blackest projector would still be unacceptable if the image was a fuzzy mess of inaccurate color.
I was only trying to see if one was more important than any of the others, if all others are equal and one has superior contrast then that’s the machine everyone would pick but things generally aren’t that simple and more often than not you will find one machine with something better than the next and so on, then it’s up to you which one is the most important.
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post #2594 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 02:04 PM
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Well, it's technically 8 projectors... and I still have them
So you rotate them everyday, on the 8th day you start again?
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post #2595 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 03:26 PM
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I was only trying to see if one was more important than any of the others, if all others are equal and one has superior contrast then that’s the machine everyone would pick but things generally aren’t that simple and more often than not you will find one machine with something better than the next and so on, then it’s up to you which one is the most important.
Yes, and if a person finds one feature or quality to be of great importance to them, it doesn't necessarily mean they are obsessed with that feature or quality -- it could just be that their preference is different than yours or somebody else's.
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post #2596 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 04:30 PM
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I think another thing that people don't talk about when it comes to contrast is the effects on gamma. There are essentially two ways to treat gamma when calibrating for movie playback in a dark room environment (assuming that is what we are using when dealing with high contrast projectors). The industry standard is BT1886, which is a 2.4 gamma that is perceptually compensated for the true measured black level, or there is a power gamma of 2.4, which does not have any compensation.

If you have a projector with a very high contrast level (lower black floor), with 1886 the roll off near black is not very drastic and your overall gamma is still closer to 2.4 overall (typically in the 2.35 range). This means you are coming out of black slowly and dark scenes will still look closer to the darker levels intended by the master. If you use a power 2.4 they will come out REALLY slow and the dark end will look very dark but there may be a bit of abruptness very close to black.

If you have a projector with a lower contrast level (higher black floor), the 1886 roll off is not nearly as steep so you have a roll off that extends much farther into the video range, sometimes as far as 40-50%. This means that not only is black higher, but the whole range of near black and into the mid-range to perceptually compensate. Average gamma falls into the 2.2 and even the 2.1 range. This has a drastic effect on darker content, even if it isn't full blacks. If you do a power gamma, the drastic gap between where black should be and the next step up in the gamma range is quite large making the near black information look poor.

BT1886 is essentially a tone map for the bottom end of the signal range. It was designed to compensate for the poor black levels of displays on the market and to give a perceptual balance coming out of black where the different image intensities were far more balanced to each other and mimic what a true 2.4 capable display would look like (OLED).

So having a high black floor is more than just how a display does with black, it effects the signal range quite a bit above black and the higher the black floor, the more you see it wash out what comes after. When you compare two displays that are calibrated to 1886 properly that have remarkably different contrast ratios, this becomes far more evident.
Kris thank you very much for explaining a little bit about the gamma relationship with black, and about 2.4 and BT1886. Have wondered about the true difference between 2.4/BT1886 as the two can look very similar. I use BT1886 on my LG OLED.

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post #2597 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 04:58 PM
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Kris thank you very much for explaining a little bit about the gamma relationship with black, and about 2.4 and BT1886. Have wondered about the true difference between 2.4/BT1886 as the two can look very similar. I use BT1886 on my LG OLED.
BT1886 is identical to power 2.4 on an OLED because they do true black. You can select either 1886 or 2.4 in calibration software and the results should be absolutely identical.
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post #2598 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 05:43 PM
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BT1886 is identical to power 2.4 on an OLED because they do true black. You can select either 1886 or 2.4 in calibration software and the results should be absolutely identical.
I noticed you refer to the gamma numbers as "power" 2.4. First time ive heard that used. Does it denote something other then the number? I take it in your use as just "straight" 2.4, as you had explained that BT1886 is almost like black tone mapping.

EDIT: Yes when running test patterns I could not see a difference between 2.4 and 1886 on my LG E7 OLED.

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post #2599 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 05:47 PM
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I noticed you refer to the gamma numbers as "power" 2.4. First time ive heard that used. Does it denote something other then the number? I take it in your use as just "straight" 2.4, as you had explained that BT1886 is almost like black tone mapping.

EDIT: Yes when running test patterns I could not see a difference between 2.4 and 1886 on my LG E7 OLED.
Power law gamma means straight. So a gamma of 2.4 is sometimes referred to as power. Some calibration software solutions will also list gamma this way if you are not looking for some kind of black compensation.
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post #2600 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 06:00 PM
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I’m just trying to get a gauge for how important black levels are to you. Is it more important than sharpness, is it more important than colours, is it more important than motion handling?

The point I have continued to make is even when I have seen JVC vs other side by side comparisons where the superior black levels are very noticeable once hours late in isolation those inferior blacks (Sony) didn’t look that bad, in fact they looked very good.

Now maybe if I lived with a JVC for long enough I might go out of my way to look for this which is very possible but from an outsider looking in I can’t see it as that big of a deal, like it’s not like we are talking about DLP projector levels of black we are talking about Sony which is almost as good right down to 1%.
I want it all. I want a projector that throws a sharp image, good contrast, good motion and good color. Colors should not be an issue. For SDR, any decent projector should calibrate to Rec709 and all should look pretty much the same color wise. As for color in HDR, I do want to get to DCI color space in BT2020 container. But once again, once calibrated, color should look the same, as long as the projector tracks well. As for sharpness, if I have to use test patterns to tell the difference, then either works for me. Same reason why I have never had trouble with the sharpness of the shifted DLP projectors, they throw a very sharp image. Motion handling, would love to have the motion handling of DLP, just not willing to give up so much to get it. That leaves contrast. Contrast can be seen at any distance. Contrast is what makes HDR pop.

But I am not saying contrast above all else. I used to have an RS600. Very high contrast projector. I went from the RS600 to an RS4500. The 4500 had much lower native contrast, but was still a high contrast projector. It is also my favorite projector that I have had in my room. I think the Sony projectors throw a nice image, but if picking between the VW695 and the RS2000, I would pick the RS2000, for the better HDR tone mapping, wider HDR color space and lower price.

I think things will get interesting once we get the native 4K chips. Those should have 2,400:1 contrast. Still low, but a big improvement. High lumens with a manual iris that can be closed down to increase native contrast and a good dynamic dimming system and suddenly it gets very interesting. Manual iris is one place where I think a lot of the DLP manufacturers are missing the boat.
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post #2601 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 06:11 PM
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On some DLP's, you can go into the service menu and hard-set the DI as a manual aperture.
However, it doesn't increase native contrast, only helps with making the image darker if it's too bright for your setup.

If they make a true fixed iris at the correct part of the lens, then they can increase native contrast at least some, but how much is the question.
It's hard to say exactly, because it partly depends on the DLP chip.

Also, there are a lot of color settings on DLP's to play with in the service menus, you can often get a better calibration by altering the hard values in the service menu, but you have to be careful. Never bricked a projector yet, but I did come close once (and it wasn't even my projector) ...

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post #2602 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Power law gamma means straight. So a gamma of 2.4 is sometimes referred to as power. Some calibration software solutions will also list gamma this way if you are not looking for some kind of black compensation.
Ok thats very good to know. I appreciate it Kris.

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post #2603 of 2783 Old 05-06-2019, 07:48 PM
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Until you collide with a snowboarder at 50 MPH ( or a tree ).
Or you fall onto a patch of ice or plow into a Grizzly Bear if skiing in Montana.
Well, the Grizzly might provide a sufficient cushion for the blow (at least at first).

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post #2604 of 2783 Old 05-08-2019, 05:39 AM
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You are basically confirming my point, it's more so a JVC owners gripe than anyone else. I'm not claiming the Epson I have has great contrast/black levels but I have seen some JVCs which each put up an awesome image and more recently a 4K Sony that I watched Solo on it, at not point did I say to myself these space scenes looked crap, the black looked very black to my eyes and I just reveled in the brilliant image in front of me.

I know for the purpose of testing these facts and figures are important but for me personally I think some people get hung up on these facts and figures more so than actually sitting and enjoying the movie. Or is it once you've lived long enough with this level of black that you crave it to the point that it's a must have and overrules all other factors?
Right. JVC owners bought the projector partly because they wanted good black levels. So it makes sense that a JVC owner would care about this aspect otherwise they may not have become a JVC owner in the first place. It's pretty hard to just sit back and enjoy a movie and not care about this stuff. I mean with that attitude why even have a projector? You can watch on your phone and just kick back and enjoy the movie.

When I had my sony 675ES, I just couldn't get through even one episode of "The Expanse" (which I was binge watching at the time), without being disgusted by the misty grey of space. It was impossible to just sit back and enjoy. Then I got my RS640 after this and was super thrilled when the white "the expanse" letters on a black screen looked like they were just floating in space with no screen, borders, or anything else.

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I’m just trying to get a gauge for how important black levels are to you.
Is it more important than sharpness,
is it more important than colours,
is it more important than motion handling?
Is it more important than sharpness - yes
is it more important than colours - no
is it more important than motion handling - yes

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post #2605 of 2783 Old 05-08-2019, 06:39 AM
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I mean with that attitude why even have a projector? You can watch on your phone and just kick back and enjoy the movie.
Hmmmm, the FIRST thing people buy a projector for is screen size.

Before anything else.

Without being relatively cheap for the screen size, they wouldn't even be in the running by any other metric.

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post #2606 of 2783 Old 05-08-2019, 06:46 AM
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People talk about contrast and black levels like it is a JVC thing. It is a picture thing, as in it improves the image. Heck, if we could get the Christie DLP at JVC prices, we would all own the Christie. In other words, it is not the technology that matters, it is the image that the projector throws, that matters.
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post #2607 of 2783 Old 05-08-2019, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Right. JVC owners bought the projector partly because they wanted good black levels. So it makes sense that a JVC owner would care about this aspect otherwise they may not have become a JVC owner in the first place. It's pretty hard to just sit back and enjoy a movie and not care about this stuff. I mean with that attitude why even have a projector? You can watch on your phone and just kick back and enjoy the movie.

When I had my sony 675ES, I just couldn't get through even one episode of "The Expanse" (which I was binge watching at the time), without being disgusted by the misty grey of space. It was impossible to just sit back and enjoy. Then I got my RS640 after this and was super thrilled when the white "the expanse" letters on a black screen looked like they were just floating in space with no screen, borders, or anything else.



Is it more important than sharpness - yes
is it more important than colours - no
is it more important than motion handling - yes
Thank you for answering what I thought might be the case with some if not all JVC owners, there's nothing wrong with these demands. This is the better projector for you but if might not be the better choice for someone else and that is what I have always tried to make, some people can't abide motion issues so choice DLP despite their awful black levels.

One thing we are in agreement is sharpness isn't the most important thing.
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post #2608 of 2783 Old 05-08-2019, 08:13 AM
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I understand what you're saying in the 2nd paragraph quoted above, and I think to some degree it is valid. Our perception of blacks and contrast are different in side-by-side comparisons vs one projector on its own. But as coderguy pointed out above, and as you indicate in the first paragraph above, there is a 'reference' value for black in the room, even when there is only one projector in there.

Honest question here - wouldn't a projector with poorer black levels and contrast be evident, when compared with the black screen frame (assuming you have one), and/or the black velvet around the screen, even though there is no other projector in the room?

Similarly, if someone has had a projector with excellent black levels and contrast in their room, wouldn't they have a 'reference' perception relative to those blacks, within the limits of visual and perceptual memory, such that a projector with poorer black levels would be more readily recognized, even without a side-by-side?
The BOLDED points is where the gigantic argument was over that photograph Marmon1 posted between his JVC and the Sony...

And till today, it seems the argument goes over many people's heads..

Here.. let me summarize again... Our eye's contrast level is dynamic... it changes based on what it sees as a whole. I believe our per frame contrast is no more than 1000:1... the reason we seem to see 'more than that' is because in moving objects, from scene to scene, our eyes changes that 1000:1 to different levels...

So, if you're concentrating on the 'black velvet', then the eyes uses that as the black reference, and that's where your 1000:1 starts.. and that's why you see the 'black inside the projected images as grey mist'... but if you're not 'actively looking at the black frame', then your 'frame of reference is the black floor of the projector, thus, it will look way blacker'...

And therein lies the problem with photo comparisons.. it biases the eyes to the 'blacker' side.. and thus the less black will appear grey... without the 'blacker side' the less black becomes the 'black'..

and that's why almost no one who isn't 'looking for' or 'concentrating' on the blackest object in their room just to check out their projecrtor's contrast level will ever tell you that the space scene looks grey... !

But I really do not want to open up that can of worms again... people are just talking over each other.. and then you have the bullies who thinks they know it all comes in here flaming everyone who don't agree with them...

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This is another example of how important absolute black is important to JVC owners where you actually still look for reference points in the screen border etc instead of enjoying the movie. It is an obsession no matter what way you look at it.



But what I saying is I have seen JVCs which are better than anything else regards to black levels so your argument to doesn’t hold water.

Are you saying you would prefer a 720p projector with killer black level over a 4K projector like my Epson with average black levels?
Exactly.... and just by staring at the border, they actually bias their eyes to that black level...

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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hmmmm, the FIRST thing people buy a projector for is screen size.

Before anything else.

Without being relatively cheap for the screen size, they wouldn't even be in the running by any other metric.
Speaking of which, my sister just bought a micro projector and projects it on her ceiling.. 'big' is the wow factor there... haha

And i remember, while in college, i would loan out the university's projector (those were lousy computer projectors' and then have movie nights in my room... image quality is nowhere near my tv, but then my tv was 40 inches while the projector was 100 inches... ppl loved it!

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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
People talk about contrast and black levels like it is a JVC thing. It is a picture thing, as in it improves the image. Heck, if we could get the Christie DLP at JVC prices, we would all own the Christie. In other words, it is not the technology that matters, it is the image that the projector throws, that matters.
That's the thing.. only to JVC owners, it's a JVC thing.. i am pretty happy with the black levels of my Sony..
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post #2609 of 2783 Old 05-08-2019, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
The BOLDED points is where the gigantic argument was over that photograph Marmon1 posted between his JVC and the Sony...

And till today, it seems the argument goes over many people's heads..

Here.. let me summarize again... Our eye's contrast level is dynamic... it changes based on what it sees as a whole. I believe our per frame contrast is no more than 1000:1... the reason we seem to see 'more than that' is because in moving objects, from scene to scene, our eyes changes that 1000:1 to different levels...

So, if you're concentrating on the 'black velvet', then the eyes uses that as the black reference, and that's where your 1000:1 starts.. and that's why you see the 'black inside the projected images as grey mist'... but if you're not 'actively looking at the black frame', then your 'frame of reference is the black floor of the projector, thus, it will look way blacker'...

And therein lies the problem with photo comparisons.. it biases the eyes to the 'blacker' side.. and thus the less black will appear grey... without the 'blacker side' the less black becomes the 'black'..

and that's why almost no one who isn't 'looking for' or 'concentrating' on the blackest object in their room just to check out their projecrtor's contrast level will ever tell you that the space scene looks grey... !

But I really do not want to open up that can of worms again... people are just talking over each other.. and then you have the bullies who thinks they know it all comes in here flaming everyone who don't agree with them...



Exactly.... and just by staring at the border, they actually bias their eyes to that black level...



Speaking of which, my sister just bought a micro projector and projects it on her ceiling.. 'big' is the wow factor there... haha

And i remember, while in college, i would loan out the university's projector (those were lousy computer projectors' and then have movie nights in my room... image quality is nowhere near my tv, but then my tv was 40 inches while the projector was 100 inches... ppl loved it!



That's the thing.. only to JVC owners, it's a JVC thing.. i am pretty happy with the black levels of my Sony..
It is not a matter of concentrating on the black velvet frame. You can't help but see the velvet frame, if you have a screen with a velvet frame, when looking at the image on screen.

I have been pretty happy with black levels with all of my projectors, until I see something that throws a better image, then I know that there is something better out there. Then it is a matter of, is it worth it to upgrade.

Added
I know that there is something out there that does much better than JVC and that is the Christie projector. I laughingly stated in that thread that I did not want to see the Christie, because I knew it would be so much better all around than anything I have ever owned, but only because I doubt I would ever spend that kind of money, even if I could afford it.

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post #2610 of 2783 Old 05-08-2019, 08:48 AM
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Everything in the image can be the most important to some degree, then it is the law of diminishing returns...
If any one attribute sticks out too poorly, then it suddenly becomes the most important thing to consider.

However, if we are talking today's projectors, most are generally pretty sharp, you have to think for watching MOST movies that the contrast is usually more noticeable to most people over the sharpness.
Maybe not if playing games or reading small text, but remember how bad sharpness was on projectors in the old days (except the high-end DLP's).
Remember how much poor sharpness some of the RS-1's looked, yet many people still bought them over the DLP's for the contrast.

However, now we are much much closer in sharpness between LCOS and DLP than we used to be.
So now you have to ask yourself, do you want to lose contrast to gain sharpness, that's a tough call to be honest.

It's why I'm still stuck with an older JVC, sharpness vs. contrast.
I was all-in for the newer true 4k models, until I saw the contrast readings at the budget I'm going into (NX5).
I already have 35,000:1+ native contrast in my setup.

Blacks are still a bit milky at times, but the DI will help on a newer model.
The main reason is brightness, I need more brightness.

However, I don't want the headache of selling old projectors and buying new ones (had bad luck with that once already).
So that means I prefer to upgrade slower than most people, or I'll be stuck collecting projectors, and my budget won't allow that.

Some people in here seem to have unlimited projector budgets (or close to it), must be nice.
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