The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 88 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2611 of 2790 Old 05-08-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
It is not a matter of concentrating on the black velvet frame. You can't help but see the velvet frame, if you have a screen with a velvet frame, when looking at the image on screen.

I have been pretty happy with black levels with all of my projectors, until I see something that throws a better image, then I know that there is something better out there. Then it is a matter of, is it worth it to upgrade.

Added
I know that there is something out there that does much better than JVC and that is the Christie projector. I laughingly stated in that thread that I did not want to see the Christie, because I knew it would be so much better all around than anything I have ever owned, but only because I doubt I would ever spend that kind of money, even if I could afford it.
Don't we all drool over that beast!

Let's see which tech comes down in price faster.. MicroLED or that DLP?

ps: I don't look at the velvet and I don't really notice it while immersed in a movie...
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post #2612 of 2790 Old 05-08-2019, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I know that there is something out there that does much better than JVC and that is the Christie projector. I laughingly stated in that thread that I did not want to see the Christie, because I knew it would be so much better all around than anything I have ever owned, but only because I doubt I would ever spend that kind of money, even if I could afford it.
At that price point (even if I had the money to burn), I'd start to feel like the Kardashians, hence I'd be checking myself for green slime...
I'd probably rather just donate the money and 'live with' JVC black levels, although it would be tempting, but I'm not the showy type.

Now if you gave me a Rolls Royce, I could sell it, buy the Christie projector and then donate the difference (sounds like a plan).

Going to start the 'GoFundMe' campaign now, all I need is to Ebay the Rolls Royce then get the Christie projector.

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post #2613 of 2790 Old 05-08-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hmmmm, the FIRST thing people buy a projector for is screen size.

Before anything else.

Without being relatively cheap for the screen size, they wouldn't even be in the running by any other metric.
I would agree with that, that's why I have a theater room
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post #2614 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Don't we all drool over that beast!

Let's see which tech comes down in price faster.. MicroLED or that DLP?

ps: I don't look at the velvet and I don't really notice it while immersed in a movie...
And that is entirely the point.

One doesn't go looking at the border of the screen unless one is trying to constantly assess something about the picture quality.

Sounds exhausting.

It stems from an innate feeling of perpetual dissatisfaction in my view.
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post #2615 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
The BOLDED points is where the gigantic argument was over that photograph Marmon1 posted between his JVC and the Sony...

And till today, it seems the argument goes over many people's heads..

Here.. let me summarize again... Our eye's contrast level is dynamic... it changes based on what it sees as a whole. I believe our per frame contrast is no more than 1000:1... the reason we seem to see 'more than that' is because in moving objects, from scene to scene, our eyes changes that 1000:1 to different levels...

So, if you're concentrating on the 'black velvet', then the eyes uses that as the black reference, and that's where your 1000:1 starts.. and that's why you see the 'black inside the projected images as grey mist'... but if you're not 'actively looking at the black frame', then your 'frame of reference is the black floor of the projector, thus, it will look way blacker'...

And therein lies the problem with photo comparisons.. it biases the eyes to the 'blacker' side.. and thus the less black will appear grey... without the 'blacker side' the less black becomes the 'black'..
If the Sony was the one shaming the JVC, you'd be all over those photos. Lol. The photos show what they need to show, which is how much darker black floor one projector has over another.

The rest of your argument, which is basically that your eye adjusts and contrast means nothing at all, is pure nonsense. If it were true, I'd have been able to just keep my 285ES and / or 675ES (that I bought) and been happy as my eyes would have just adjusted. Yet with no other projector in the room something had to be done because all the scifi space scenes were a milky grey mess. Your laser projector has worse contrast by far than the 675ES I had, so your tolerance and/or ability to even notice is obviously very low. I think you're just unable to judge this. Mix that in with the fact that you're absolutely adamant about what you dont realize etc. Super fun times

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post #2616 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
If the Sony was the one shaming the JVC, you'd be all over those photos. Lol. The photos show what they need to show, which is how much darker black floor one projector has over another.
If it were the other way round I personally would be doing what I am doing now, but would be imploring JVC to get their act together instead of Sony.

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The rest of your argument, which is basically that your eye adjusts and contrast means nothing at all, is pure nonsense. If it were true, I'd have been able to just keep my 285ES and / or 675ES (that I bought) and been happy as my eyes would have just adjusted. Yet with no other projector in the room something had to be done because all the scifi space scenes were a milky grey mess. Your laser projector has worse contrast by far than the 675ES I had, so your tolerance and/or ability to even notice is obviously very low. I think you're just unable to judge this. Mix that in with the fact that you're absolutely adamant about what you dont realize etc. Super fun times

Eyes do adjust, but you have told us many times that YOU cannot deal with what you call 'milky blacks'. Groovy.

But that is not the point and not what @coolgeek was saying.

Just accept that not everyone sees things as you do.

And as for that last bit, it is arrogant and presumptious. Not cool bro.
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post #2617 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 05:51 AM
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Even JVC's look like a bit milky on some space scenes (about half), I'd have trouble putting up with less contrast.
Though I'm only getting around 30k:1 or so probably at the moment, and no DI on my JVC, so...

I'm just hoping we see at least 60k:1 on next year's JVC entry model, but I have a feeling, not going to happen.
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post #2618 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
And that is entirely the point.

One doesn't go looking at the border of the screen unless one is trying to constantly assess something about the picture quality.

Sounds exhausting.

It stems from an innate feeling of perpetual dissatisfaction in my view.
That is like someone saying they should never notice the black bars on a 16:9 screen when watching a scope movie. Yet most people do notice.
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post #2619 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 06:11 AM
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IMO, in order of importance:

1) Brightness when image goes below 10-12 fL, hence 4-8 fL is too dark even in a batcave.
2) Contrast, when contrast goes below 8k:1 Native/50k:1 Dynamic or 20k:1 Native with no Dynamic.
3) Color Accuracy when image is more off than usually about 4 dE or so...
4) Motion Resolution
5) Sharpness

That is how I'd rank them on current projectors, but it does depend how close you sit.
3,4,5 could be interchangeable depending on your specific setup.

Of course if the color is too bad, then it becomes # 1, same with contrast, but brightness usually matters the most on today's projectors with peoples' crazy gigantic screens.
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post #2620 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
That is like someone saying they should never notice the black bars on a 16:9 screen when watching a scope movie. Yet most people do notice.
Everyone notices they are there, just down to the fact you lose so much screen real estate by watching a 2.35:1 film on a 16:9 screen.

But, I didn't say *wouldn't* notice them, I said 'go looking for them'.

I know black bars are there, but Black Widows perfectly formed err, jumpsuit, isn't on the black bars.

Hence, I am not looking at them.

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post #2621 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 06:21 AM
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Well some people have the ability to tune out things more than others.
Probably depends partly on personality type.

The black bars always drive me crazy to be honest, ESPECIALLY after going with Triple Black Velvet.
Before the TBV treatments, I could live with them a little, after it was impossible because it makes like all the scenes look bad.

Suddenly, you have this pitch black midnight layer, then you have this very annoying grayish black space next to it.

Getting rid of the black bars and having a much larger CIH screen is way better, and it's not that hard to do.
Or for some people that don't mind giant screens, they can just use masking.

For me, my projector wasn't bright enough and room wasn't wide enough to really go over 120" CIH.
I initially had 130" and then decided to knock 10 inches off, which goes back to brightness being the most important really.

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post #2622 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 06:46 AM
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Well some people have the ability to tune out things more than others.
Probably depends partly on personality type.
That is more than likely 90% of it. I have trouble unnoticing things once I have seen them and so, try (try being the operative word) not to look for them in the first place.

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The black bars always drive me crazy to be honest, ESPECIALLY after going with Triple Black Velvet.
Before the TBV treatments, I could live with them a little, after it was impossible because it makes like all the scenes look bad.

Suddenly, you have this pitch black midnight layer, then you have this very annoying grayish black space next to it.

Getting rid of the black bars and having a much larger CIH screen is way better, and it's not that hard to do.
Or for some people that don't mind giant screens, they can just use masking.

For me, my projector wasn't bright enough and room wasn't wide enough to really go over 120" CIH.
I initially had 130" and then decided to knock 10 inches off, which goes back to brightness being the most important really.
So by 'optimising' your room you just showed up stuff that didn't bother you before.

I have only blacked up the 33% of the room near the screen. There is no way my wife would let me have a room that can't be used as a 'normal' room as well mind you.

Luckily my screen sits in its own alcove and this prevents many reflections in the first place.

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post #2623 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 06:48 AM
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So by 'optimising' your room you just showed up stuff that didn't bother you before.
It always bothered me, but it's even more unbearable with the TBV treatment.

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post #2624 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 06:59 AM
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It always bothered me, but it's even more unbearable with the TBV treatment.
I see. It can be never ending though can't it.

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post #2625 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 07:00 AM
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I see. It can be never ending though can't it.
What, being bothered by stuff?
I suppose, but I'm 100x happier with my setup than in the past.

I just need 100k:1 Native and 1 million dynamic, Native 4k, 2000 Lumens, then I 'm done...

I'd probably never upgrade again.

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post #2626 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
IMO, in order of importance:

1) Brightness when image goes below 10-12 fL, hence 4-8 fL is too dark even in a batcave.
2) Contrast, when contrast goes below 8k:1 Native/50k:1 Dynamic or 20k:1 Native with no Dynamic.
3) Color Accuracy when image is more off than usually about 4 dE or so...
4) Motion Resolution
5) Sharpness

That is how I'd rank them on current projectors, but it does depend how close you sit.
3,4,5 could be interchangeable depending on your specific setup.

Of course if the color is too bad, then it becomes # 1, same with contrast, but brightness usually matters the most on today's projectors with peoples' crazy gigantic screens.
I agree with most of your list and brightness is number one if you can't get above 12fl SDR and around 30 for HDR. The argument I can't wrap my head around is the "need a light cannon" over anything else. for me 2&3 then 5 are most important if you can achieve the 15 & 30 FL. I can buy a lot of bulbs, DCR Lens, Stewart Screen and achieve great brightness and pay 1/2 of what a good laser projector that achieve the same quality would cost. Now if you have a 150"++ screen you need to sacrifice a lot of something to get that. And that is either a lot of money or some other things on the list.

But i can't wait until someone makes a good Sony/JVC performance projector in laser and gets it around that 10K mark.I will buy that. I say that will happen in 5 years. BenQ will push these guys.
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post #2627 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
What, being bothered by stuff?
Well, yes and no. I was more referring to the endless upgrades that can ensue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I suppose, but I'm 100x happier with my setup than in the past.

I just need 100k:1 Native and 1 million dynamic, Native 4k, 2000 Lumens, then I 'm done...

I'd probably never upgrade again.
Same here.

Imagine if a manufacturer did that though. It would close the market down if no one needed to upgrade any more. Hence the incremental updates and built in obsolescence.

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post #2628 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 07:06 AM
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I would rather have an RS-640 on a $25 screen, than an RS-400 on a $25,000 screen.
I have seen the difference in person, and the projector makes way more difference to me than the screen.
I tune out the screen pretty easily, unless it's really textured or hot spotting.
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post #2629 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
If the Sony was the one shaming the JVC, you'd be all over those photos. Lol. The photos show what they need to show, which is how much darker black floor one projector has over another.

The rest of your argument, which is basically that your eye adjusts and contrast means nothing at all, is pure nonsense. If it were true, I'd have been able to just keep my 285ES and / or 675ES (that I bought) and been happy as my eyes would have just adjusted. Yet with no other projector in the room something had to be done because all the scifi space scenes were a milky grey mess. Your laser projector has worse contrast by far than the 675ES I had, so your tolerance and/or ability to even notice is obviously very low. I think you're just unable to judge this. Mix that in with the fact that you're absolutely adamant about what you dont realize etc. Super fun times
What was your iris setting on the 675?
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post #2630 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 11:12 PM
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If it were the other way round I personally would be doing what I am doing now, but would be imploring JVC to get their act together instead of Sony.

Eyes do adjust, but you have told us many times that YOU cannot deal with what you call 'milky blacks'. Groovy.

But that is not the point and not what @coolgeek was saying.

Just accept that not everyone sees things as you do.

And as for that last bit, it is arrogant and presumptious. Not cool bro.
I doubt he'll ever understand the point...

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That is more than likely 90% of it. I have trouble unnoticing things once I have seen them and so, try (try being the operative word) not to look for them in the first place.

So by 'optimising' your room you just showed up stuff that didn't bother you before.

I have only blacked up the 33% of the room near the screen. There is no way my wife would let me have a room that can't be used as a 'normal' room as well mind you.

Luckily my screen sits in its own alcove and this prevents many reflections in the first place.
Isn't that why going total black may not be the best option? it brings out the imperfections more...

I am planning a black velvet curtain right now.. so, still have a great looking room but can always draw the curtain when needed....
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post #2631 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 11:21 PM
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I would rather have an RS-640 on a $25 screen, than an RS-400 on a $25,000 screen.
I have seen the difference in person, and the projector makes way more difference to me than the screen.
I tune out the screen pretty easily, unless it's really textured or hot spotting.
You're prob right on that one..

But recently i started testing out screens... and to me they do make a heck of a lot of difference...

Here are my findings:

1. Woven vs solid vinyl...

I'll never get back to woven screens. The difference is night and day for me. And I am including the world's best the V6 here.. it's not even funny the difference you'll see in sharpness. I'll argue that any 'starfield' comparisons you can do with any JVCs vs Sony pales in comparison when you compare woven vs solid screens in terms of sharpness. You spend $10,000s of dollars on projectors with the best possible lens and then just got rid of all the advantages with a woven screen.

2. High gain vs Neutral

This one is subjective I must acknowledge... I personally love the 1.8 gain i have... compared to the 1.0 side by side, it's not even a competition... now, again, i said, this one is subjective.... you'll get a bit of 'hot spotting'.. but i don't notice it at all really unless you have an image of the same color over the entire screen... otherwise with 99.99 percent of all content, i don't see any... So, essentially, the 1.8 gain screen has turned my Sony 760 into the JVC Z1 in terms of brightness... i get super popping brightness and super nice vivid colors...

3. Silver vs White screen

Again, this is controversial and subjective. To me, my silver screen added contrast. And to anyone who has sit in my cinema room, the same... I don't want to go back into debating this issue because all i get will be numbers why it can't happen, yet it is what it is...
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post #2632 of 2790 Old 05-09-2019, 11:53 PM
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2. High gain vs Neutral

This one is subjective I must acknowledge... I personally love the 1.8 gain i have... compared to the 1.0 side by side, it's not even a competition... now, again, i said, this one is subjective.... you'll get a bit of 'hot spotting'.. but i don't notice it at all really unless you have an image of the same color over the entire screen... otherwise with 99.99 percent of all content, i don't see any... So, essentially, the 1.8 gain screen has turned my Sony 760 into the JVC Z1 in terms of brightness... i get super popping brightness and super nice vivid colors...

but it liftet the blackfloor to. I had for 10 days a 1.4 Gain Screen Hotspot was terrible.
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post #2633 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 12:18 AM
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Don't we all drool over that beast!

Let's see which tech comes down in price faster.. MicroLED or that DLP?

ps: I don't look at the velvet and I don't really notice it while immersed in a movie...
Which particular model is it you drool over?

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post #2634 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 02:13 AM
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You're prob right on that one..

But recently i started testing out screens... and to me they do make a heck of a lot of difference...
Right, they do, but I'm not talking about gain screens or special screens.
I'm talking about a cheap piece of blackout cloth vs. an expensive 1.0 gain white matte.
My point is, I'd rather watch the RS-640 on the blackout cloth, because the difference is so miniscule.
Is there a difference, yes but it's tiny, it's smaller than the difference between native 4k and shift 4k.

I notice people buy like $4000 projectors with $3000+ screens, they should have just bought the $6500 projector with a Silver Ticket screen.

Now, if talking about gain screens or gray screens or ALR or any of that stuff, then the whole thing becomes crazy.
I also am curious which gain screen you are currently using?

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post #2635 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 03:17 AM
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but it liftet the blackfloor to. I had for 10 days a 1.4 Gain Screen Hotspot was terrible.
Hotspot is one of those things that either bothers you or it doesnt... i am not one of those person that it bothers.. in fact, i can't even notice it 99.9% of the time... it's only when you're displaying a white light onto the entire screen, or say, the entire screen is snow, or sky, etc, then i notice it a bit.. other than that in mixed content, i don't see anything... btw: mine is 1.8 gain, silver screen.

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Which particular model is it you drool over?
The Christie Ultimate One that Arrow reviewed...

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Right, they do, but I'm not talking about gain screens or special screens.
I'm talking about a cheap piece of blackout cloth vs. an expensive 1.0 gain white matte.
My point is, I'd rather watch the RS-640 on the blackout cloth, because the difference is so miniscule.
Is there a difference, yes but it's tiny, it's smaller than the difference between native 4k and shift 4k.

I notice people buy like $4000 projectors with $3000+ screens, they should have just bought the $6500 projector with a Silver Ticket screen.

Now, if talking about gain screens or gray screens or ALR or any of that stuff, then the whole thing becomes crazy.
I also am curious which gain screen you are currently using?
I would agree with that... although I am not sure anyone who are so budget that they buy the cheaper projector just to then spend $3K on a screen.. prob just fringe cases...
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post #2636 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 03:19 AM
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I would agree with that... although I am not sure anyone who are so budget that they buy the cheaper projector just to then spend $3K on a screen.. prob just fringe cases...
You'd be surprised, a lot of people with RS-4xx's have really really expensive screens.

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post #2637 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 03:26 AM
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You'd be surprised, a lot of people with RS-4xx's have really really expensive screens.
Maybe you're right.. but to me, worse, are people who spend $20-60K on the top end projectors, then use woven screens... but even then, i suppose i can see why... suppose they have less than 15 feet viewing distance, then micro perf would not work well... so, they are stuck with woven for AT purposes...
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post #2638 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 03:47 AM
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Maybe you're right.. but to me, worse, are people who spend $20-60K on the top end projectors, then use woven screens... but even then, i suppose i can see why... suppose they have less than 15 feet viewing distance, then micro perf would not work well... so, they are stuck with woven for AT purposes...
I take it you're not a fan of woven screens! I'm torn between woven Seymour XD and fixed non perf StudioTek 100 - seating will be too close for micro perf.
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post #2639 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 03:53 AM
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Even JVC's look like a bit milky on some space scenes (about half), I'd have trouble putting up with less contrast.
Though I'm only getting around 30k:1 or so probably at the moment, and no DI on my JVC, so...

I'm just hoping we see at least 60k:1 on next year's JVC entry model, but I have a feeling, not going to happen.
Ya your 30K:1 isn't even in the same league as the RS640's 1Mil:1 dynamic or even my RS4500 with dynamic dimming. The only time space seem to have a hint of milky grey on these projectors is when the space scene, itself, contains a raised black floor. If one scene has pure black and the next looks milky its due to the raised floor. For example, the movie passengers had a largely raised floor on all the space scenes so it looked about the same on the JVC and Sony. Some of the stuff I was testing on star trek discovery looked a little milky on the sony and was better on the JVC but also had a slightly raised black floor. The expanse, however, does it right and the space is always super dark black.

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post #2640 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 03:56 AM
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That is more than likely 90% of it. I have trouble unnoticing things once I have seen them and so, try (try being the operative word) not to look for them in the first place.
This is so true and such good advice. I've been happy with things, then seen something once and never happy with it again. I'd definitely agree that if you're pretty satisfied with something you should definitely not check for some deficiency you have not noticed but maybe heard about.
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Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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