The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 89 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2641 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
What, being bothered by stuff?
I suppose, but I'm 100x happier with my setup than in the past.

I just need 100k:1 Native and 1 million dynamic, Native 4k, 2000 Lumens, then I 'm done...
So basically an NX9
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post #2642 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 06:26 AM
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It's more than I want to spend on a single projector.

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post #2643 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by howiee View Post
I take it you're not a fan of woven screens! I'm torn between woven Seymour XD and fixed non perf StudioTek 100 - seating will be too close for micro perf.
I used to think woven was the way to go with AT... and I didn't think i would be missing so much PQ going that route...

The problem is you'll have to pick your poison.. if you want AT, you don't have a lot of choice... if you go woven, you lose a lot of PQ... everthing looks soft/2Dish... compared to solid screens... micro perf on the other hand requires further seating distances.. I actually eventually replaced my woven screen with a micro-perf and at 12 feet, my first row, i could easily make out the perforations.... however, i jury rigged it so that it instantly become way better.. how i did that was i stretched a white spandex behind the screen tight against the micro perf screen.. (I can do this because my screen is curved), and instantly those holes disappeared.. it didn't interfere with the sound quality much at all...

and now, at 12 feet, it's pretty ok.. even though i can still make out something when the scene is snow or something.. but my 2nd row is now baby smooth...
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post #2644 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 07:42 AM
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I doubt he'll ever understand the point...



Isn't that why going total black may not be the best option? it brings out the imperfections more...

I am planning a black velvet curtain right now.. so, still have a great looking room but can always draw the curtain when needed....
If your room is not very good with light control the difference between the black bars and the black velvet on your screen is a lot greater than if you have good light control, so that the black bars are darker. Look at it this way. If you had a perfect room and a perfect projector, you would never see the black bars, because they would be absolute black. If you took that perfect projector and put it in a room with ambient light, then those bars would no longer be perfect black and they would stand out more. So the argument that going for total blackout in a room may not be best is a losing argument.
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post #2645 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 08:32 AM
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post #2646 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If your room is not very good with light control the difference between the black bars and the black velvet on your screen is a lot greater than if you have good light control, so that the black bars are darker. Look at it this way. If you had a perfect room and a perfect projector, you would never see the black bars, because they would be absolute black. If you took that perfect projector and put it in a room with ambient light, then those bars would no longer be perfect black and they would stand out more. So the argument that going for total blackout in a room may not be best is a losing argument.
OK, but take an imperfect projector, one which isn't capable of displaying deep blacks.

Darkening the room will likely improve the picture quality to a point, but once you go far lower than the black floor of the projector, it's possible that you risk simply making the flaws of the projector more obvious, right? If the room is perfectly black, the grey 'black' floor of the projector will stand out that much more against the very dark backdrop.
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post #2647 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 10:28 AM
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OK, but take an imperfect projector, one which isn't capable of displaying deep blacks.

Darkening the room will likely improve the picture quality to a point, but once you go far lower than the black floor of the projector, it's possible that you risk simply making the flaws of the projector more obvious, right? If the room is perfectly black, the grey 'black' floor of the projector will stand out that much more against the very dark backdrop.
Yah, it's somewhat true, but only on a smaller amount of content.
It mostly only affects scenes just above total blackouts (credits, small starfields, etc...), and even then it is mostly the edges of the image that look too gray rather than the overall image.

Although total blackouts are affected too, I find that most total blackouts happen after a scene that is quite a lot brighter, and in that case everything looks pitch black for a couple seconds until your eyes adjust (because the room is so dark from all the TBV treatments).

Scenes with a lot of stars in them still look better, but if the scene is incredibly dark and your eyes are fully adjusted, the black velvet does have the effect of making the edges of the scene look slightly more washed out on my older JVC. I'm sure with an RS-540/640 it would be much less so.

However, even bright scenes are improved, and most dark scenes, so it outweighs the negatives.

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post #2648 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 03:46 PM
 
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......... Look at it this way. If you had a perfect room and a perfect projector, you would never see the black bars, because they would be absolute black. ..........

I don’t think that’s 100% true. If you’re using a white or even grey screen it can never really be “absolute black”.
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post #2649 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 10:49 PM
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I'm experimenting with dark brown faux leather under the image to reduce the effect a little, however I'm not sure it really makes any difference unless I created a leather border for the image.
I was also doing for aesthetic reasons. I'm not sure it's worth it though, think the velvet may be better, hard to say as I need to frame the entire screen.

Now we're going backwards, trying to de-velvet my screen frame to make blacks look better, haha.
The idea is to make the entire room black velvet and the screen frame brighter.

I'm not sure it will work unless you make the entire wall brown (could be better, hard to say), but then that is going to cause at least some hit to bright scenes.
The screen would no longer look like it's 'floating' as much, but I guess some of the blacks might look darker since your reference point would be brown leather.

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post #2650 of 2790 Old 05-10-2019, 11:51 PM
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You could add a light strip (like the philips hue) behind the edges of the screen. The light will bias your eyes not to see the black floor and since you have a black velvet room you wont get any noticable reflections on screen either. You can dim it to your liking as well.
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post #2651 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 12:22 AM
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That would damage the overall image too much (distraction) and the black velvet would still be way darker looking since even with overhead lights on the black velvet is dark.

Need a different material, not bias lighting.

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post #2652 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 12:27 AM
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I think I am going to go get some non-white (not black either) posterboard and tack it up and see if dark scenes look better. They might.

The problem is the black velvet frame around the screen makes 70% or more of scenes look better, but 10% worse i'd guess, and 20% about the same.

I have a dual screen setup, and black levels look better when watching the unframed image smaller on the scope, but only 10% of scenes I think.

The black velvet frame way increases perceptual contrast for most scenes though, more than half. So at best it's a trade off either way.

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Last edited by coderguy; 05-11-2019 at 12:33 AM.
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post #2653 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I actually eventually replaced my woven screen with a micro-perf and at 12 feet, my first row, i could easily make out the perforations.... however, i jury rigged it so that it instantly become way better.. how i did that was i stretched a white spandex behind the screen tight against the micro perf screen.. (I can do this because my screen is curved), and instantly those holes disappeared.. it didn't interfere with the sound quality much at all...

and now, at 12 feet, it's pretty ok.. even though i can still make out something when the scene is snow or something.. but my 2nd row is now baby smooth...
Neat idea, makes you wonder why they don't do something like this in a commercial product. I have a woven screen - Screen Research Clearpix 4K - and the sharpness is certainly lacking at the pixel level. If you want to focus properly you have to put a sheet of paper in front of the screen as the fabric robs you of all the screen door effect, which is unhelpful for focussing.
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post #2654 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 06:32 AM
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I have never seen the spandex before, supposedly I heard spandex looks better than BO cloth even if not wanting an AT screen, but I have very serious doubts that true.

If so, then why would anyone buy anything BUT Spandex for an AT screen?

I think a lot of people make claims by pixel peeping without actually testing stuff from seating distance...

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post #2655 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 06:35 AM
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I guess the answer is gain, as I wouldn't use Spandex because of it's negative gain personally.

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post #2656 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 06:36 AM
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I don’t think that’s 100% true. If you’re using a white or even grey screen it can never really be “absolute black”.
Sure it can. If you had, for example, a room with zero light your screen is now absolute black. Then if your projector was say a true array of RGB Laser beams one for each pixel shining onto the screen (no scatter at all, think RGB laser pointers one per pixel) you'd still have perfect black around the dots and sections of the image with no light beaming would be absolute black still.

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post #2657 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 06:41 AM
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Sure it can. If you had, for example, a room with zero light your screen is now absolute black. Then if your projector was say a true array of RGB Laser beams one for each pixel shining onto the screen (no scatter at all, think RGB laser pointers one per pixel) you'd still have perfect black around the dots and sections of the image with no light beaming would be absolute black still.
lol, fat chance...

Reflecting light causes light scatter as soon as the light hits the screen, because no screen or reflective white material can reflect without causing some light scatter.

However, it is probably theoretically possible it could get so close that the bars would look almost like black velvet, but only in extremely dark scenes, in bright scenes it would be the same problem from limitations of the room and screen's ANSI in bright scenes.

You'd have to some type of special screen for that to work, a type of screen that doesn't exist.
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post #2658 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Sure it can. If you had, for example, a room with zero light your screen is now absolute black. Then if your projector was say a true array of RGB Laser beams one for each pixel shining onto the screen (no scatter at all, think RGB laser pointers one per pixel) you'd still have perfect black around the dots and sections of the image with no light beaming would be absolute black still.
I took a look at this last night with my pico laser projector on the large HP screen, my room is a 360 velvet pit.

even with brighter scenes the scope bars look like I have the velvet masks on. The contrast on this RGB laser projector is the closest I've seen to OLED performance.

It's a bummer it can't scale to full size models, laser speckle and the danger of the direct laser output are blockers.

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post #2659 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 09:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Sure it can. If you had, for example, a room with zero light your screen is now absolute black. Then if your projector was say a true array of RGB Laser beams one for each pixel shining onto the screen (no scatter at all, think RGB laser pointers one per pixel) you'd still have perfect black around the dots and sections of the image with no light beaming would be absolute black still.

Please explain to me how the absence of light on a “white” screen can give you “absolute black”?

Sure it may look and be perceived (there’s that nasty word again) as black. But it’s not and never will be.

You may need to look up the word “absolute” to find the answer.
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I took a look at this last night with my pico laser projector on the large HP screen, my room is a 360 velvet pit.

even with brighter scenes the scope bars look like I have the velvet masks on. The contrast on this RGB laser projector is the closest I've seen to OLED performance.

It's a bummer it can't scale to full size models, laser speckle and the danger of the direct laser output are blockers.


Can you use it at a decent OLED size and still get a similar image?
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post #2661 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 10:29 AM
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I don’t think that’s 100% true. If you’re using a white or even grey screen it can never really be “absolute black”.
Um, yes it can.

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post #2662 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Please explain to me how the absence of light on a “white” screen can give you “absolute black”?

Sure it may look and be perceived (there’s that nasty word again) as black. But it’s not and never will be.

You may need to look up the word “absolute” to find the answer.
Go into a pitch black room (mine) and leave all light sources off. You will NEVER see that screen. The screen REFLECTS light, it doesn't make it. So if there is no light to reflect, you'll never see it. So yes, you can have a perfect black on a white screen. Basic image science 101.

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post #2663 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 10:39 AM
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I took a look at this last night with my pico laser projector on the large HP screen, my room is a 360 velvet pit.

even with brighter scenes the scope bars look like I have the velvet masks on. The contrast on this RGB laser projector is the closest I've seen to OLED performance.

It's a bummer it can't scale to full size models, laser speckle and the danger of the direct laser output are blockers.

How many lumens are you shooting at the screen though, and are you taking up the entire screen?

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Can you use it at a decent OLED size and still get a similar image?
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How many lumens are you shooting at the screen though, and are you taking up the entire screen?
it's ~250 lumens and have it mounted near eye level for max gain on the 2.8HP. it looks nice at ~120". dimmer at 142" but still impressive considering it's the size of a cell phone

scanline image appears analog like a CRT, awesome for the MAME emulator and classic arcade games.

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post #2665 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 12:15 PM
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it's ~250 lumens and have it mounted near eye level for max gain on the 2.8HP. it looks nice at ~120". dimmer at 142" but still impressive considering it's the size of a cell phone

scanline image appears analog like a CRT, awesome for the MAME emulator and classic arcade games.



As a gadget freak, that is a whole pack of awesome right there.
Edit: writeup of either this or similar tech here:
Scanned Laser Pico projectors - EDN
https://www.edn.com/Pdf/ViewPdf?contentItemId=4137597
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I took a look at this last night with my pico laser projector on the large HP screen, my room is a 360 velvet pit.

even with brighter scenes the scope bars look like I have the velvet masks on. The contrast on this RGB laser projector is the closest I've seen to OLED performance.

It's a bummer it can't scale to full size models, laser speckle and the danger of the direct laser output are blockers.
Hmmm...how about stacking maybe 4 or 8 of those to get 1000 - 2000 lumens it would still be a really small unit...

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post #2667 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 12:47 PM
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Problem is the resolution, most of those projectors are 480p to 720p.
Stacking them is not going to look so great.

I think that is also the only one that has that kind of contrast, I think most of them changed designs, but maybe Zombie would know...

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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
As a gadget freak, that is a whole pack of awesome right there.
Edit: writeup of either this or similar tech here:
Scanned Laser Pico projectors - EDN
https://www.edn.com/Pdf/ViewPdf?contentItemId=4137597
it's a very cool demo of this technology, imagine seeing something this 20+ years ago, it would have looked like alien tech .

It has built in android, runs MAME no problem. also built in media player handles 1080P MKV. The entire top of projector is a touch pad for navigating the OSD and also has wireless display for android & PC's.

~4 hours built in battery, all day on an external (USB-C). It's been known for some impromptu retro gaming on conference room walls between meetings. 5 second shutdown, it's like it never happened

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post #2669 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I don’t think that’s 100% true. If you’re using a white or even grey screen it can never really be “absolute black”.
If the black bars were perfect, then it would be the same as just your screen. In my room, if I am not projecting any light from the projector, the white screen looks completely black. You can sit in the room all day and still not see your hand in front of your face with the white screen in the background. That is the perfect, I am talking about.
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post #2670 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Please explain to me how the absence of light on a “white” screen can give you “absolute black”?

Sure it may look and be perceived (there’s that nasty word again) as black. But it’s not and never will be.

You may need to look up the word “absolute” to find the answer.
Have you ever been deep in a cave and turned all the lights out? Does not matter if you were looking at a white sheet or black velvet, both are the same black level, as in you see nothing but absolute black.

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