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post #2671 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 03:14 PM
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During bright scenes there is so much light hitting the screen though, it would be hard for the black bars to be perfect. Even if they would look close to perfect in some scenes, I'd think there will always be a certain level of brightness in a scene that could be a gotcha. Z10k has dark bars, but he is also projecting at 1/4th the lumens he probably would normally use, plus it's an HP screen which makes it easier to get darker black bars due to the retro nature of it.

When it comes to contrast, the HP screen is no joke, I've said for years it actually increases contrast even in a perfect batcave according to all my testing of it.
Because of the way it disperses the light back out from the center...

It shouldn't but if you think of refraction and reflection theory, then it can make sense even in a near-perfect room (since no room is actually as perfect as we think they are).

I think I miss the HP screen too much

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post #2672 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Have you ever been deep in a cave and turned all the lights out?
That sounds like a really bad idea, if I was in a deep cave, the last thing I'm going to do is turn all the lights off...

All kidding aside, yah a room covered in black velvet is pitch black, even my neon sneakers look pretty dark.

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post #2673 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Please explain to me how the absence of light on a “white” screen can give you “absolute black”?

Sure it may look and be perceived (there’s that nasty word again) as black. But it’s not and never will be.

You may need to look up the word “absolute” to find the answer.
I guess your room is not well treated, at night with the lights off I can sit in my theatre for an hour if I wanted, no way I am going to see the screen let alone my hand right in front of my face.

As Kris said, white screens have to have light to reflect off in order for them to appear white. In fact any white or coloured surface does, that's literally how colours are made, the light has to be direct reflected light, some wavelengths are absorbed and some are not.

Since we are postulating a perfect room and perfect projector, there is no light to bounce off the white fabric in areas you dont want it to, hence, it would be absolutely black.
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post #2674 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Go into a pitch black room (mine) and leave all light sources off. You will NEVER see that screen. The screen REFLECTS light, it doesn't make it. So if there is no light to reflect, you'll never see it. So yes, you can have a perfect black on a white screen. Basic image science 101.
My theater is pitch black in the middle of the day. its dark enough even watching a movie that I had to use a flashlight mid movie during a dark scene to avert a wine spill disaster last night.
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post #2675 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 04:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Um, yes it can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Go into a pitch black room (mine) and leave all light sources off. You will NEVER see that screen. The screen REFLECTS light, it doesn't make it. So if there is no light to reflect, you'll never see it. So yes, you can have a perfect black on a white screen. Basic image science 101.
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If the black bars were perfect, then it would be the same as just your screen. In my room, if I am not projecting any light from the projector, the white screen looks completely black. You can sit in the room all day and still not see your hand in front of your face with the white screen in the background. That is the perfect, I am talking about.
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Have you ever been deep in a cave and turned all the lights out? Does not matter if you were looking at a white sheet or black velvet, both are the same black level, as in you see nothing but absolute black.
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
During bright scenes there is so much light hitting the screen though, it would be hard for the black bars to be perfect. Even if they would look close to perfect in some scenes, I'd think there will always be a certain level of brightness in a scene that could be a gotcha. Z10k has dark bars, but he is also projecting at 1/4th the lumens he probably would normally use, plus it's an HP screen which makes it easier to get darker black bars due to the retro nature of it.



When it comes to contrast, the HP screen is no joke, I've said for years it actually increases contrast even in a perfect batcave according to all my testing of it.

Because of the way it disperses the light back out from the center...



It shouldn't but if you think of refraction and reflection theory, then it can make sense even in a near-perfect room (since no room is actually as perfect as we think they are).



I think I miss the HP screen too much
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I guess your room is not well treated, at night with the lights off I can sit in my theatre for an hour if I wanted, no way I am going to see the screen let alone my hand right in front of my face.

As Kris said, white screens have to have light to reflect off in order for them to appear white. In fact any white or coloured surface does, that's literally how colours are made, the light has to be direct reflected light, some wavelengths are absorbed and some are not.

Since we are postulating a perfect room and perfect projector, there is no light to bounce off the white fabric in areas you dont want it to, hence, it would be absolutely black.

This has nothing to do with “my room” or any human being’s room.

Mike said “absolute black”. There’s only one place that science knows of that produces “absolute black”, and that is a black hole in space. Basic real science 101.

You may “perceive” your room and screen or anything else in there as “black, video black, perfect black” with your eyes or even a meter that isn’t sensitive enough to measure what “absolute black” really is, but what you’re seeing is not that. You’re right in that you can’t tell it’s not “black” to your human perception though.

Just the fact that any light whatsoever is there in the room, like from the RGB scanned lasers, means it can’t be “absolute black”.

I know how colors and light is perceived by the eyes Javs, but thanks.
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post #2676 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Basic image science 101.
If I recall...without a light source, the naturally state of things would be black, just like without a heat source, the natural state would be extreme cold.

I guess I could have been a science major. Who knew.
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post #2677 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
There’s only one place that science knows of that produces “absolute black”, and that is a black hole in space. Basic real science 101.
That's a good point. But I think that's because there's light pollution in space. Still, if there's any light pollution in the room, like LEDs, then your theory holds true too.
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post #2678 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
That's a good point. But I think that's because there's light pollution in space. Still, if there's any light pollution in the room, like LEDs, then your theory holds true too.

Well if there’s black letterbox bars it means the projector is on and projecting its RGB lasers, so.........
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post #2679 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
This has nothing to do with “my room” or any human being’s room.

Mike said “absolute black”. There’s only one place that science knows of that produces “absolute black”, and that is a black hole in space. Basic real science 101.

You may “perceive” your room and screen or anything else in there as “black, video black, perfect black” with your eyes or even a meter that isn’t sensitive enough to measure what “absolute black” really is, but what you’re seeing is not that. You’re right in that you can’t tell it’s not “black” to your human perception though.

Just the fact that any light whatsoever is there in the room, like from the RGB scanned lasers, means it can’t be “absolute black”.


I know how colors and light is perceived by the eyes Javs, but thanks.
Are you that kid in school who argued literally everything on a technicality?

I think you know what we are all talking about when we say absolute black. By that argument you should be chastising any person ever who even utters the word black because its not true black.

It means no matter your meter, you wont get a reading on it. Its BLACK for all intents and purposes, if you cannot see a thing, its black.
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post #2680 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:05 PM
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Great, so now I need black velvet and a black hole in my theater for good results.
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post #2681 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Are you that kid in school who argued literally everything on a technicality?.......

Funny, I was thinking the same thing after reading all the posts replying to mine. You guys could have just agreed, since it was quite obvious in my replies when I quoted “absolute black” multiple times, but with me you guys never do and must question everything I ever say.

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post #2682 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That sounds like a really bad idea, if I was in a deep cave, the last thing I'm going to do is turn all the lights off...

All kidding aside, yah a room covered in black velvet is pitch black, even my neon sneakers look pretty dark.
When you go to Mammoth Cave (world's longest cave) the guides always turn the lights out, so that you can see what absolute black looks like.
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post #2683 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:08 PM
 
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When you go to Mammoth Cave (world's longest cave) the guides always turn the lights out, so that you can see what absolute black looks like.

Yeah I’ve been there and saw that, it’s freaky! We also went way into the Thurston Lava Tube here in the Volcanos National Park and you get the same effect. It freaked my wife out, haha!
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post #2684 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:11 PM
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Funny, I was thinking the same thing after reading all the posts replying to mine. You guys could have just agreed, since it was quite obvious in my replies when I quoted “absolute black”, but with me you guys never do and must question everything I ever say.
Really? I guess if it was that obvious you were referring only to an actual black hole by merely adding a quotation to the word, then 5 or 6 guys probably wouldn't have bothered reply to you including me.

Hence the comment on technicality.

We are talking about theatres and projection rooms in here and you absolutely can get the absence of light on your projection screen in the right circumstances and get such a black its not even able to be measured on meters costing under $5k, otherwise nobody would have a white screen..
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post #2685 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:14 PM
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You guys are losing me. I'm just trying to understand.

So, my take on it is that if there's any light in the room, there can be reflections, and hence no absolute black.

But I think what is being discussed here is perceptible light to where the human iris, even after dilating to its fullest, still can't discern/see objects in the room, is that it?
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Really? I guess if it was that obvious you were referring only to an actual black hole by merely adding a quotation to the word, then 5 or 6 guys probably wouldn't have bothered reply to you including me.

Hence the comment on technicality.

We are talking about theatres and projection rooms in here and you absolutely can get the absence of light on your projection screen in the right circumstances and get such a black its not even able to be measured on meters costing under $5k, otherwise nobody would have a white screen..

Yep, but you argued anyway because it was me.

All I said was that he wasn’t “100% right”, which is true. It’s you guys who extrapolated way out further from there.
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post #2687 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:20 PM
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Yep, but you argued anyway because it was me.

All I said was that he wasn’t “100% right”, which is true. It’s you guys who extrapolated way out further from there.
And like I postulated, you must have been that kid in school who argued literally everything on a technicality despite knowing full well what the actual conversation was about.
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It’s you guys who extrapolated way out further from there.
LOL look at who brought black holes into the discussion, the only person I see doing that kind of extrapolation is you

I would have argued the point with anybody by the way, and so would Kris, Mike, Markmon and whoever else commented, because it is you or not you has no bearing on the matter sorry to say.
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post #2688 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:22 PM
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You all want "Absolute" Black... Shut your eyes!!
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And like I postulated, you must have been that kid in school who argued literally everything on a technicality despite knowing full well what the actual conversation was about.


LOL look at who brought black holes into the discussion, the only person I see doing that kind of extrapolation is you

I would have argued the point with anybody by the way, and so would Kris, Mike, Markmon and whoever else commented, because it is you or not you has no bearing on the matter sorry to say.

I know for a fact that’s not true. I could say the exact same thing as someone else and the follow on replies would flow like a river trying to prove me wrong, simply because it’s me.

It’s actually happened on more than one occasion.
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post #2690 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
You guys are losing me. I'm just trying to understand.

So, my take on it is that if there's any light in the room, there can be reflections, and hence no absolute black.

But I think what is being discussed here is perceptible light to where the human iris, even after dilating to its fullest, still can't discern/see objects in the room, is that it?
Its really very simple, its a response to this:

Originally Posted by Mike Garrett
......... Look at it this way. If you had a perfect room and a perfect projector, you would never see the black bars, because they would be absolute black. ..........

Quote:
I don’t think that’s 100% true. If you’re using a white or even grey screen it can never really be “absolute black”.
My room is a velvet tent, at night there are no sources of light at all, even a hawk would not see anything in there. There is no moon, there is nothing, no light can reflect of anything because there is the absence of light. Short of a Black Hole, I dont actually see the distinction between a velvet sealed theatre and a deep cave with no lights, both are pretty darn perfectly black. In fact, even night vision in the traditional sense would not likely pick up anything, you would need IR Night Vision.

Mike postulated the concept of a perfect room and perfect projector, those are ideals which we dont have right now, but if we must postulate, then, a perfect room would be the best material in the world for light absorption, it would reflect no light back, and the perfect projector would be like an OLED where if there is black, it literally will not 'emit' anything in that space, hence, the black bars would be perfectly black.

Seems like a pretty simple exercise in thought to me, without needing to bring black holes and space time into the matter.

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post #2691 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I know for a fact that’s not true. I could say the exact same thing as someone else and the follow on replies would flow like a river trying to prove me wrong, simply because it’s me.

It’s actually happened on more than one occasion.
Not at all. I just disagreed and posted. Did not have anything to do with it being you that posted.
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post #2692 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:30 PM
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I know for a fact that’s not true. I could say the exact same thing as someone else and the follow on replies would flow like a river trying to prove me wrong, simply because it’s me.

It’s actually happened on more than one occasion.
I think everybody in here knows I will call BS on a post no matter who wrote it.

You are not a special case. Maybe it just happens with you more often... I have alluded to why as well in the couple previous posts... Read between the lines
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post #2693 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Its really very simple, its a response to this:

Originally Posted by Mike Garrett
......... Look at it this way. If you had a perfect room and a perfect projector, you would never see the black bars, because they would be absolute black. ..........



My room is a velvet tent, at night there are no sources of light at all, even a hawk would not see anything in there. There is no moon, there is nothing, no light can reflect of anything because there is the absence of light. Short of a Black Hole, I dont actually see the distinction between a velvet sealed theatre and a deep cave with no lights, both are pretty darn perfectly black. In fact, even night vision in the traditional sense would not likely pick up anything, you would need IR Night Vision.

Mike postulated the concept of a perfect room and perfect projector, those are ideals which we dont have right now, but if we must postulate, then, a perfect room would be the best material in the world for light absorption, it would reflect no light back, and the perfect projector would be like an OLED where if there is black, it literally will not 'emit' anything in that space, hence, the black bars would be perfectly black.

Seems like a pretty simple exercise in thought to me, without needing to bring black holes and space time into the matter.
Got it.
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Please explain to me how the absence of light on a “white” screen can give you “absolute black”?
If you are in a completely light absent room and you have a white screen, then what color is your screen if not absolute black? Black is the absence of light. So that's our starting point. If you can't accept this much then the discussion is basically over I guess. But if you can, read on.

So now you add a light source that's non scattering like a laser beam that has no scatter.

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Mike said “absolute black”. There’s only one place that science knows of that produces “absolute black”, and that is a black hole in space. Basic real science 101.
So you're resorting to this, in a home theater forum. Makes sense.

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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
You all want "Absolute" Black... Shut your eyes!!
I just tried this /\/\/\,

but since I was sitting in front of my monitor I didn't get "Absolute" Black, it was more of a DLP "Milky Gray"
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post #2697 of 2790 Old 05-11-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jherring69 View Post
I just tried this /\/\/\,

but since I was sitting in front of my monitor I didn't get "Absolute" Black, it was more of a DLP "Milky Gray"
Try looking at the sun with your eyes closed...
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post #2698 of 2790 Old 05-12-2019, 12:30 AM
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If your room is not very good with light control the difference between the black bars and the black velvet on your screen is a lot greater than if you have good light control, so that the black bars are darker. Look at it this way. If you had a perfect room and a perfect projector, you would never see the black bars, because they would be absolute black. If you took that perfect projector and put it in a room with ambient light, then those bars would no longer be perfect black and they would stand out more. So the argument that going for total blackout in a room may not be best is a losing argument.
I wasn't argueing one way or another. As I have said plenty of times, I DO INTEND TO USE CURTAINS TO BLACKOUT my room.. please stop repeating what i never said...

My original post regarding this was to point out 2 completely opposing views.. they aren't my views.. they are yours and others.. and even at times, you contradict yourself in multiple posts... i am just pointing out the inconsistency of your arguments vs yourself and vs others...

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OK, but take an imperfect projector, one which isn't capable of displaying deep blacks.

Darkening the room will likely improve the picture quality to a point, but once you go far lower than the black floor of the projector, it's possible that you risk simply making the flaws of the projector more obvious, right? If the room is perfectly black, the grey 'black' floor of the projector will stand out that much more against the very dark backdrop.
This is what I meant,... people who says the blackest blacks are the best, yet, then the same people or others point out that when you go blacker than your projector's black floor, you only bring out the flaws.. so, you see the inconsistencies of the arguments? Again, I am NOT making any arguments one way or another.. just pointing out the opposing views...
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post #2699 of 2790 Old 05-12-2019, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
people who says the blackest blacks are the best, yet, then the same people or others point out that when you go blacker than your projector's black floor, you only bring out the flaws.. so, you see the inconsistencies of the arguments?
This really isn't a common argument. I think most of us assume your room is perfect when making contrast comparisons. Blackening the room absolutely improves *every* projector.

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post #2700 of 2790 Old 05-12-2019, 06:47 AM
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This has nothing to do with “my room” or any human being’s room.

Mike said “absolute black”. There’s only one place that science knows of that produces “absolute black”, and that is a black hole in space. Basic real science 101.

You may “perceive” your room and screen or anything else in there as “black, video black, perfect black” with your eyes or even a meter that isn’t sensitive enough to measure what “absolute black” really is, but what you’re seeing is not that. You’re right in that you can’t tell it’s not “black” to your human perception though.

Just the fact that any light whatsoever is there in the room, like from the RGB scanned lasers, means it can’t be “absolute black”.

I know how colors and light is perceived by the eyes Javs, but thanks.
Well if we're going to be this anal, then technically a black hole isn't an example of absolute black. The event horizon itself will generate some radiation in the form of light (hawking radiation) and therefore a black hole is visible. Never to humans, or to any equipment we have, but apparently practicalities have been thrown out of the window for this pointless debate.
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