The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 91 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2701 of 2790 Old 05-12-2019, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
When you go to Mammoth Cave (world's longest cave) the guides always turn the lights out, so that you can see what absolute black looks like.
Mike,

I'm from Frankfort, Kentucky USA so have been to Mammoth Cave in person and when those lights are Turned-Off as you say it's Damn sure Black and or DARK !!!

Honestly the only other place I've personally been to that reminded me of that cave was Cu Chi, Vietnam at Night as there were
No-Lights !!!



Terry
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post #2702 of 2790 Old 05-12-2019, 08:38 AM
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Until you collide with a snowboarder at 50 MPH ( or a tree ).

At 62, I feel my daredevil days are behind me. Except for driving and flying.


"Free Solo" kept me on the edge of my seat the whole time. I liked the guy, but would not want to have the need to do such things.
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post #2703 of 2790 Old 05-12-2019, 11:19 AM
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At 62, I feel my daredevil days are behind me. Except for driving and flying.


"Free Solo" kept me on the edge of my seat the whole time. I liked the guy, but would not want to have the need to do such things.
My El Cap days are over too. But free soloing was never my thing. I didn't even like getting out of my aiders back in the day.........
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post #2704 of 2790 Old 05-12-2019, 01:56 PM
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My theater is pitch black in the middle of the day. its dark enough even watching a movie that I had to use a flashlight mid movie during a dark scene to avert a wine spill disaster last night.
My room is a very dark grey, you can not see anything in there without a light.....
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post #2705 of 2790 Old 05-13-2019, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That would damage the overall image too much (distraction) and the black velvet would still be way darker looking since even with overhead lights on the black velvet is dark.

Need a different material, not bias lighting.
I don't think it does. My Ambilight TV never draws your attention to the bias lights but it does enhance the image.

The benefit of the Ambilight system is it changes colour with the content on the screen (if that is what you set it to).

There are numerous ways to set it up and it even tries to match the colour of the wall the TV is mounted on or near as a basis for all the other settings.

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post #2706 of 2790 Old 05-13-2019, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Go into a pitch black room (mine) and leave all light sources off. You will NEVER see that screen. The screen REFLECTS light, it doesn't make it. So if there is no light to reflect, you'll never see it. So yes, you can have a perfect black on a white screen. Basic image science 101.
Whilst that is true...…. (Everything would be black (or invisible) to us if nothing reflected light, as we all see a reflected natural world in the most part. Glow worms etc aside... )

........... Won't there always be an off axis reflection from the screen (even with a single laser beam) once some light hits it, as all screens have an imperfect surface?
The screen would have to be 100% flat and completely smooth for it to work of course and all laser beams on any mooted full array projector would have to be perfectly perpendicular to said screen also.

Which to my mind means that the array would have to be as big as the screen being projected onto...……. In which case..... just have a screen with OLEDS lighting the pixels.

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Well if we're going to be this anal, then technically a black hole isn't an example of absolute black. The event horizon itself will generate some radiation in the form of light (hawking radiation) and therefore a black hole is visible. Never to humans, or to any equipment we have, but apparently practicalities have been thrown out of the window for this pointless debate.

Haha, touché!
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post #2708 of 2790 Old 05-13-2019, 11:55 PM
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I just read this review about the Epson 5050/9400 by Art on Projector Reviews.com.https://www.projectorreviews.com/eps...ter-projector/


I'm still debating whether to get the Epson and save money for audio upgrades and avoid the production problems that this JVC release is having or take my chances and get the N7 . Art states that the Epson has ghosting problems with 3D. Getting 3D in my cinema is my main motivation to upgrade at this time. I don't recall anyone on here claiming the JVC's have ghosting problems except with the worst discs (and I think ghosting would show up an any projector with those titles). Anyone here have any first hand knowledge of the 3D on the N5 and N7 or the Epson 5050 or both that can comment on the 3D?
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post #2709 of 2790 Old 05-14-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ShadowBoy View Post
I just read this review about the Epson 5050/9400 by Art on Projector Reviews.com.https://www.projectorreviews.com/eps...ter-projector/


I'm still debating whether to get the Epson and save money for audio upgrades and avoid the production problems that this JVC release is having or take my chances and get the N7 . Art states that the Epson has ghosting problems with 3D. Getting 3D in my cinema is my main motivation to upgrade at this time. I don't recall anyone on here claiming the JVC's have ghosting problems except with the worst discs (and I think ghosting would show up an any projector with those titles). Anyone here have any first hand knowledge of the 3D on the N5 and N7 or the Epson 5050 or both that can comment on the 3D?
I have seen N5 and N7 and I can tell you they are completely free of ghosting.
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post #2710 of 2790 Old 05-14-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That sounds like a really bad idea, if I was in a deep cave, the last thing I'm going to do is turn all the lights off...

All kidding aside, yah a room covered in black velvet is pitch black, even my neon sneakers look pretty dark.
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post #2711 of 2790 Old 05-14-2019, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ShadowBoy View Post
I just read this review about the Epson 5050/9400 by Art on Projector Reviews.com.https://www.projectorreviews.com/eps...ter-projector/

I'm still debating whether to get the Epson and save money for audio upgrades and avoid the production problems that this JVC release is having or take my chances and get the N7 . Art states that the Epson has ghosting problems with 3D. Getting 3D in my cinema is my main motivation to upgrade at this time. I don't recall anyone on here claiming the JVC's have ghosting problems except with the worst discs (and I think ghosting would show up an any projector with those titles). Anyone here have any first hand knowledge of the 3D on the N5 and N7 or the Epson 5050 or both that can comment on the 3D?
The new JVC's have same ghosting performance as the e-shift models which is excellent for a non-DLP projector (DLP's with active shutter glasses are flawless for x-talk). The caveat with the JVC's (native + e-shift) is that the 3D is 96hz or 48hz per eye. below the typical 60hz per eye threshold for not seeing slight flicker.

On the flip side - the Epson LCD's can have some noticeable ghosting depending on the title but they run at 120hz or 60hz per eye for a more calm appearing 3D image.

personally i'm more affected by crosstalk than the slight refresh flicker and prefer the JVC's for 3D vs the Epson.

If you like 3D in the cinema, either of these HT projector choices will be a better experience than the typical Real 3D theater viewing. Circular polarized 3D glasses can induce ghosting at the slightest head tilt and the contrast on those 3D projectors is terrible. Our viewing of Avengers End game was ruined by a Real 3D projector. Any non-bright scene had a low contrast grey haze over the entire image. Infinity War 3D BD looks amazing on the JVC and looking forward to End Game to be released later in the summer in 3D Bluray.
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post #2712 of 2790 Old 05-14-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Whilst that is true...…. (Everything would be black (or invisible) to us if nothing reflected light, as we all see a reflected natural world in the most part. Glow worms etc aside... )

........... Won't there always be an off axis reflection from the screen (even with a single laser beam) once some light hits it, as all screens have an imperfect surface?
The screen would have to be 100% flat and completely smooth for it to work of course and all laser beams on any mooted full array projector would have to be perfectly perpendicular to said screen also.

Which to my mind means that the array would have to be as big as the screen being projected onto...……. In which case..... just have a screen with OLEDS lighting the pixels.
I've generally stayed out of this conversation since my first comment because the level of ridiculousness continues. But my comment was a direct response to the comment which stated that a white screen can never be black in a room. That is absolutely false as the screen is a reflective surface, so no light=no light. In my room this is the exact scenario as there is no light when everything is off, so the screen is absolute black. The only way you will get absolute black with a projector in this room is if it turns off the light source for black and has no LEDs on it that would also shine on the screen. This is the case with the RS4500. With the Sony 885/995 I had to put a piece of black electrical tape on their power LEDs because they are on the front and are green so they cast light on the screen all the time if not blocked. I've setup my room for these conditions specifically so the images are not being compromised by the room itself as much as is possible. I've seen WAY too many rooms that other reviews/commentators use to evaluate equipment that have LONG LONG lists of compromises, which would not sit well with me for reporting on something and trying to be objective.

Can a white screen have perfect blacks with a projector displaying an actual image?More than likely not. Maybe with a scanning laser system. But that wasn't what my comment addressed before this thread got into the ridiculousness of black holes and other nonsense like so many of these other threads with weak arguments being purported as facts.
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I don't think it does. My Ambilight TV never draws your attention to the bias lights but it does enhance the image.

The benefit of the Ambilight system is it changes colour with the content on the screen (if that is what you set it to).

There are numerous ways to set it up and it even tries to match the colour of the wall the TV is mounted on or near as a basis for all the other settings.
I invested in Lightpack 2 on Kickstarter which does this same thing via HDMI throughput. It shipped this month, actually, after over a year.

Very cool for TV's in living rooms.
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I've generally stayed out of this conversation since my first comment because the level of ridiculousness continues

......

before this thread got into the ridiculousness of black holes and other nonsense like so many of these other threads with weak arguments being purported as facts.
So what do you really think?

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......Can a white screen have perfect blacks with a projector displaying an actual image?More than likely not. Maybe with a scanning laser system. But that wasn't what my comment addressed before this thread got into the ridiculousness of black holes and other nonsense like so many of these other threads with weak arguments being purported as facts.

But that’s exactly what the response was directed to, a projector that was ON in a completely black room, measuring the black bars.
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I don’t think that’s 100% true. If you’re using a white or even grey screen it can never really be “absolute black”.
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Please explain to me how the absence of light on a “white” screen can give you “absolute black”?

Sure it may look and be perceived (there’s that nasty word again) as black. But it’s not and never will be.

You may need to look up the word “absolute” to find the answer.
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But that’s exactly what the response was directed to, a projector that was ON in a completely black room, measuring the black bars.
Um no, you should read what you write Dave. It was VERY clear that you were saying that the absence of light on a screen can not give you black. They absolutely can be absolute black, as demonstrated with nothing on in my room or with any projector that can turn off its laser. A scanning laser (which was alluded to in one of the comments that you respond to above) could also achieve this. After this was pointed out to you as false by SEVERAL members here that have achieved the same thing in their room, you went off on some wild tangent about black holes and blah blah blah, none of which changes the fact that you can have a white screen in a room and still achieve an absolute black.
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The 2019 model projectors comparison thread

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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Um no, you should read what you write Dave. It was VERY clear that you were saying that the absence of light on a screen can not give you black. They absolutely can be absolute black, as demonstrated with nothing on in my room or with any projector that can turn off its laser. A scanning laser (which was alluded to in one of the comments that you respond to above) could also achieve this. After this was pointed out to you as false by SEVERAL members here that have achieved the same thing in their room, you went off on some wild tangent about black holes and blah blah blah, none of which changes the fact that you can have a white screen in a room and still achieve an absolute black.

You’re seriously going to make my tongue in cheek response to all this silliness “a thing”? (Black holes)

But truth be told, if the projector is ON, even if it’s a laser scanning type, there must be some reflections, even if ever so minuscule that can’t be perceived by the human eye or normal measuring instruments. It will not be ”absolute black”! REAL Science 101! THAT was my point Kris.

I have some astronomy friends and hopefully soon to be colleagues that work here at the world renown WM Keck Telescopes on top of Mauna Kea. Perhaps I’ll ask them?
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You made it a thing, not me.

I don't care about reflections, you said a white screen can never be black, it can. Done.

I don't care about your astronomy friends opinions unless they've tested white screen reflectivity in a room with no light. No light to reflect, no light on screen. Photons don't make themselves. This is very basic and easily proven.

So again, YOU CAN HAVE AN ABSOLUTE BLACK ON A WHITE SCREEN OR ANY OTHER SCREEN.
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The 2019 model projectors comparison thread

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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
You made it a thing, not me.



I don't care about reflections, you said a white screen can never be black, it can. Done.



I don't care about your astronomy friends opinions unless they've tested white screen reflectivity in a room with no light. No light to reflect, no light on screen. Photons don't make themselves. This is very basic and easily proven.



So again, YOU CAN HAVE AN ABSOLUTE BLACK ON A WHITE SCREEN OR ANY OTHER SCREEN.

You may want to look up the definition of “absolute”. I’m not responding again. So you win, congratulations.
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Originally Posted by ShadowBoy View Post
I just read this review about the Epson 5050/9400 by Art on Projector Reviews.com.https://www.projectorreviews.com/eps...ter-projector/


I'm still debating whether to get the Epson and save money for audio upgrades and avoid the production problems that this JVC release is having or take my chances and get the N7 . Art states that the Epson has ghosting problems with 3D. Getting 3D in my cinema is my main motivation to upgrade at this time. I don't recall anyone on here claiming the JVC's have ghosting problems except with the worst discs (and I think ghosting would show up an any projector with those titles). Anyone here have any first hand knowledge of the 3D on the N5 and N7 or the Epson 5050 or both that can comment on the 3D?
What production problems? People being overly anal about stuff and constantly switching out their pjs? This place is too funny! I have over 200 hours on my nx5 and not a single hiccup, and the best picture I have seen to date.
I’m glad I didn’t wait! And got a free lamp too! These new jvc’s are the real deal your loosing out by waiting!


Just my 2 cents
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Absolute black is not possible on a screen with a projector emanating light towards the screen, even with Vanta Black room surfaces. Vanta Black reflects .04%, some of it will reach the screen, there goes absolute black level.

A projection screen is not a stand alone device, it works in conjunction with a projector.

Laser Off = Not Projecting light, hence in this state, it's no longer a projector

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The 2019 model projectors comparison thread

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Absolute black is not possible on a screen with a projector emanating light towards the screen, even with Vanta Black room surfaces. Vanta Black reflects .04%, some of it will reach the screen, there goes absolute black level.

A projection screen is not a stand alone device, it works in conjunction with a projector.

Laser Off = Not Projecting light, hence in this state, it's no longer a projector

Uh oh, duck and cover!!!

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Uh oh, duck and cover!!!

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Absolute black is not possible on a screen with a projector emanating light towards the screen, even with Vanta Black room surfaces. Vanta Black reflects .04%, some of it will reach the screen, there goes absolute black level.



A projection screen is not a stand alone device, it works in conjunction with a projector.



Laser Off = Not Projecting light, hence in this state, it's no longer a projector
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A black screen would have exactly the same limitations as a white screen if there was light bouncing around in the room. It's all about degrees.

Can we just bring this chat back to a sensible discussion? For the purposes of a person who wants to watch an image projected by a projector, a white screen can produce blacks which are indistinguishable from the blacks any other colored material can produce - ie the same as a black screen. Provided the room is dark enough.

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Mike said "Perfect projector and perfect room", it doesn't need to exist now, it is the perfect situation. It's really hard in here sometimes

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Correct, it does not exist, but if it did, then no light would be hitting the black bars and no masking would be needed, since the bars would be black. Heck, half the time, when projecting a 16:9 image onto my 2.40 aspect ratio screen, the unused pillar boxes on each side look as dark as they do with masking in place. It is only on brighter scenes that the side masking is of benefit.
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post #2727 of 2790 Old 05-15-2019, 08:34 AM
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What production problems? People being overly anal about stuff and constantly switching out their pjs? This place is too funny! I have over 200 hours on my nx5 and not a single hiccup, and the best picture I have seen to date.
I’m glad I didn’t wait! And got a free lamp too! These new jvc’s are the real deal your loosing out by waiting!


Just my 2 cents
It's a great projector - especially for the money. I was impressed by the picture last time I saw it. I'll be getting one to demo in my theater in a few weeks.
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post #2728 of 2790 Old 05-15-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Correct, it does not exist, but if it did, then no light would be hitting the black bars and no masking would be needed, since the bars would be black. Heck, half the time, when projecting a 16:9 image onto my 2.40 aspect ratio screen, the unused pillar boxes on each side look as dark as they do with masking in place. It is only on brighter scenes that the side masking is of benefit.
So I guess that means 8,294,400 individual high powered laser beams hitting a heat resistant surface in absolute perfection with perfect convergence.
Now those guys with the AT screens are going to be burning holes in their walls.

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post #2729 of 2790 Old 05-15-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MDesigns View Post
Mike said "Perfect projector and perfect room", it doesn't need to exist now, it is the perfect situation. It's really hard in here sometimes

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The perfect room, perfect projector, non reflective furniture, non reflective skin, eyeballs, clothing and no wine glasses for Craig Peer.....

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post #2730 of 2790 Old 05-15-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
The perfect room, perfect projector, non reflective furniture, non reflective skin, eyeballs, clothing and no wine glasses for Craig Peer.....
Except these !
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