The 2019 model projectors comparison thread - Page 93 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2761 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
There are definite trade-offs between both units, but what is the RS2000 actually measuring... If I get an RS-640, my fixed aperture going to be -8 to -15, I'm going to get silly high native contrast compared to an NX5. I'm just waiting for one to popup at the right price on Craig's list that I can go see in person. Most people I know held onto their RS-540/640 and are waiting for next year to upgrade, or the year after.

I know e-shift has some noise, but I'm shooting the PJ out of the closet now (though door is open, not using a window), so hopefully I won't hear it. Then there is the lens shift / focus drift issues some people have on the 540/640 series, well I'm hoping I don't get that. Then there are also some bad lens samples, but the RS-540 I saw looked good, not sharper, but good enough. The RS-67 I saw had a terrible lens, but it was a B-stock. So a lot of this is just luck of the draw, it's still Russian Roulette even though people don't want to believe it.

The Nx5 is only measuring on average about 25k:1 I believe, that's 1/5th or less of an RS-640. I'd have a lot of trouble believing most people are going to choose the NX5 over an RS-640, maybe the NX7, but at the current pricing, it's overpriced. I guess if they are gamers or sitting really close.

If you actually look at the 4k movies being released, a lot of them are not nearly the true potential of 4k, the noise ratio is too high from the camera lens, or they are just fake upscaled 2k transfers (annoying). Maybe the NX5/7/9 would be appreciably worth it if the source content we have was MOSTLY true native 4k, right now most of it isn't. So all you are really gaining is upscaling natively instead of e-shift upscaler, but you are losing contrast. The image is sharper and cleaner, but not that much according to people I've seen compare it.
Why are you talking NX5 vs 540/640 when my post you quoted never talked about the NX5. I did talk about the RS2000 vs the 540/640. As I said, I know several that compared and all of them picked the RS2000.
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post #2762 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 02:35 PM
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Why are you talking NX5 vs 540/640 when my post you quoted never talked about the NX5. I did talk about the RS2000 vs the 540/640. As I said, I know several that compared and all of them picked the RS2000.
Because NX5 price is more in line with RS-540 that you can get right now. RS2000 and 3000 are overpriced.
RS2000 is about 50k:1 max from what a dealer I know measured, though some have measured lower/higher.

He never got an RS-3000, as a matter of fact, he was waiting for several months and had to refund some of his customers on the order. He is a low volume dealer though, mom and pop shop (literally), and his main business isn't projectors, it's TV installations. Even some schools are switching to TV's now, heck he said MOST of his business is replacing projector installs with TV's.

I helped him with a few jobs in the old days, but been a while back, and I was helping him with the software side mostly.

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post #2763 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 02:46 PM
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I just checked my emails, he said RS-2000 was 56,800:1 was his measurements at max throw aperture -15. RS1000 was 29,500:1.
His RS-540 max measurement was 96k:1, and his RS-640 max was 118k:1.

Take it for what it is, no contrast measurements are perfect, but his results seem pretty consistent in comparison ratios.

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post #2764 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Well, it's probably a pre-production sample. I can absolutely guarantee you that an RS-540 does not measure 35k:1 @ max contrast for a working unit. JVC is not Epson, they do not quadruple their contrast numbers. Every JVC I've ever measured has been at least 60% to 70% of the real rated number.

Yes, he is a great calibrator, but there have been some odd measurements from S&V, and a lot of it is probably because he gets very early units at times.

Heck, I can get 26k:1 on my 8 year old RS-45 OFF the screen, and that is using the C6 directly. If I use a light meter, I get around 31k:1, but I've measured it as high as almost 40k:1 when it was new.

Contrast measurements are tricky, lens position can make them vary a lot because of the bright corners. I've seen it happen myself. You have to move it around and take the higher number really, or average it. Like I said, I can make an RS-66 measure 60k:1 to 80k:1 by moving the meter back due to bright corners, but realistically, that was one bad sample.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57427766

The 25K:1 measurement is with iris 0 for both white and black. The same method gives you the low to mid 30K:1 reading on the RS540. The measurement you are quoting to get the 130k:1 is with the iris fully closed for black and open for white. That same method will net you about 84K:1 on a NX7/9. Arrow-AV's post I linked has the measurements.

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post #2765 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 02:55 PM
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https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57427766

The 25K:1 measurement is with iris 0 for both white and black. The same method gives you the low to mid 30K:1 reading on the RS540. The measurement you are quoting to get the 130k:1 is with the iris fully closed for black and open for white. That same method will net you about 84K:1 on a NX7/9. Arrow-AV's post I linked has the measurements.
I was talking about the nx5, and when measuring contrast you should be talking about farthest throw and iris closed by default, or it gets really convoluded.

NX 7 was measured at 56,800:1 by someone I personally trust and know. Again though, there are unit variances in play here, and the unit variances can be severe, I've seen it myself.

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post #2766 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 02:57 PM
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I don't doubt that the RS-3000 beats the RS-640 in every way, but it has way higher contrast than the NX-5. I am going to be paying less for a used RS-640 then I would be paying for a new RS-540, so that isn't even in my budget. Hoping to snag an RS-640 for $2.5k is what I'm looking at in the used market.

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post #2767 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I just checked my emails, he said RS-2000 was 56,800:1 was his measurements at max throw aperture -15. RS1000 was 29,500:1.
His RS-540 max measurement was 96k:1, and his RS-640 max was 118k:1.

Take it for what it is, no contrast measurements are perfect, but his results seem pretty consistent in comparison ratios.
I would not trust those numbers. The 29,500:1 is too high with iris closed on the NX5. The RS2000 number sounds reasonable for shortest throw, maybe a little low.
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post #2768 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 03:01 PM
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I would not trust those numbers. The 29,500:1 is too high with iris closed on the NX5. The RS2000 number sounds reasonable for shortest throw, maybe a little low.
I don't agree, it's just unit variance. The lower-end and higher-end units have the MOST unit variance, as stated by him, the middle unit always has the least variance from unit to unit. That's why the Native numbers on the middle units are often closer than the others when you look at review sites.

Anyways, he has measured 50-100 JVC's, and some just have bad panels, period... Not every one will measure the same.
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post #2769 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I was talking about the nx5, and when measuring contrast you should be talking about farthest throw and iris closed by default, or it gets really convoluded.

NX 7 was measured at 56,800:1 by someone I personally trust and know. Again though, there are unit variances in play here, and the unit variances can be severe, I've seen it myself.
Arrow-AV has been consistent with the other measurements by calibrators in the owners thread. I'll say the same thing about your "trusted" source you said about S&V, that seems off/low.

The NX5 has 25k:1 with the iris at 0. Why would not have better contrast using it's iris? That makes no sense.

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post #2770 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 03:04 PM
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Arrow-AV has been consistent with the other measurements by calibrators in the owners thread. I'll say the same thing about your "trusted" source you said about S&V, that seems off/low.

Why would the NX5 show no gain over iris at 0 25k:1 vs. using it's iris? That makes no sense.
What are you speaking of, I was only speaking at -15 no DI engaged, never mentioned 2 numbers for the same unit.

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post #2771 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 03:05 PM
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Arrow-AV has been consistent with the other measurements by calibrators in the owners thread. I'll say the same thing about your "trusted" source you said about S&V, that seems off/low.

The NX5 has 25k:1 with the iris at 0. Why would not have better contrast using it's iris? That makes no sense.
If someone is measuring multiple units the same, then something is wrong, the units are not the same. He has shown me this in person how one JVC to another varies of the same model. He tried to get me an RS-67 before, as he had a 66 and a 67 come through as bad samples. He was able to open the box on the B-stocks for me and set them up.

I just don't want to trouble the guy anymore unless I buy something, and I don't want to him to open a third B-stock and then it turns out to have an issue like the other 2 and then I waste his time again.

That's why I'm thinking my best bet is Craig's list.

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I don't agree, it's just unit variance. The lower-end and higher-end units have the MOST unit variance, as stated by him, the middle unit always has the least variance from unit to unit. That's why the Native numbers on the middle units are often closer than the others when you look at review sites.

Anyways, he has measured 50-100 JVC's, and some just have bad panels, period... Not every one will measure the same.
From your keyboard to good ears (a little creativity there) Anyway, I agree with you. I've owned a few JVCs and have seen many, including the new models except for the NX7, and I'm going to tell you the best I've seen so far were an RS4910 and an NX9. Yes, they were on separate occasions, but both were in full light controlled rooms using the same gain and type screen and similar distances. The RS4910 was not calibrated but the NX9 was.

What if I told you that that RS4910 looked just as sharp or sharper and just as calm or calmer than that NX9? THe RS4910 also had outstanding black levels!!! Put it this way, I had an excellent JVC X990...I would call it a golden sample even. That RS4910's image blew it out of the water. I don't know what was in that thing, but it was in fact a JVC RS4910 from 2014!!!

All right...with that let our friends joke all they want, like I need my I.Q. checked, my vision checked, etc., etc., but I know what I saw. I guess that sometimes a mind-blowing sample can roll off that assembly line.
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post #2773 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 04:43 PM
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I don't doubt that the RS-3000 beats the RS-640 in every way, but it has way higher contrast than the NX-5. I am going to be paying less for a used RS-640 then I would be paying for a new RS-540, so that isn't even in my budget. Hoping to snag an RS-640 for $2.5k is what I'm looking at in the used market.
In general many JVC owners have been conditioned to the dogma that resolution is not that important, contrast and black levels are the determining factor in image quality. JVC encouraged this thinking as it was self serving when they did not have a reasonably priced native 4K panel and were forced to push eshift technology. I owned an eshift unit and had the same opinion. Having upgraded to native 4K RS1000, I can say without a doubt that the added resolution makes a substantial visual difference. I was relieved to find out that the laws of physics and biology were still intact.

My point is that while contrast may be slightly lower than comparable eshift models the N series more than compensates with native resolution. That's not counting tone mapping, calmer image, lack of eshift noise, better motion, better sync times, etc.
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post #2774 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 04:44 PM
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From your keyboard to good ears (a little creativity there) Anyway, I agree with you. I've owned a few JVCs and have seen many, including the new models except for the NX7, and I'm going to tell you the best I've seen so far were an RS4910 and an NX9. Yes, they were on separate occasions, but both were in full light controlled rooms using the same gain and type screen and similar distances. The RS4910 was not calibrated but the NX9 was.

What if I told you that that RS4910 looked just as sharp or sharper and just as calm or calmer than that NX9? THe RS4910 also had outstanding black levels!!! Put it this way, I had an excellent JVC X990...I would call it a golden sample even. That RS4910's image blew it out of the water. I don't know what was in that thing, but it was in fact a JVC RS4910 from 2014!!!

All right...with that let our friends joke all they want, like I need my I.Q. checked, my vision checked, etc., etc., but I know what I saw. I guess that sometimes a mind-blowing sample can roll off that assembly line.
The sample variance is most extreme with B-stock units, that's why they are so heavily discounted at times. I know because I've looked at (5) different B-stock units at dealers.

I recently had a chance to buy an RS-620 for a good price as the dealer had a 'floor model', by the time I got there (the next day), it was Sunday. I was on a business trip and I had to work all day Monday, so I didn't get to his place until late Tues, but he already sold it, so I missed the deal. I should have called and told him to hold it for me, but I'd rather have an RS-640 anyhow.

I'm a bit frustrated with the whole b-stock process, that's why with Craig's list I can just go find something local maybe, but it might take a year or more. The only thing on Craig's list right now is an RS-56, unless I drive really far. I'm not willing to drive more than 200 miles really.

I suppose I could just try to get an RS-540, but then I have other plans for the $1000 or so I'll be saving, need to put that into some other stuff.

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post #2775 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
In general many JVC owners have been conditioned to the dogma that resolution is not that important, contrast and black levels are the determining factor in image quality. JVC encouraged this thinking as it was self serving when they did not have a reasonably priced native 4K panel and were forced to push eshift technology. I owned an eshift unit and had the same opinion. Having upgraded to native 4K RS1000, I can say without a doubt that the added resolution makes a substantial visual difference. I was relieved to find out that the laws of physics and biology were still intact.

My point is that while contrast may be slightly lower than comparable eshift models the N series more than compensates with native resolution. That's not counting tone mapping, calmer image, lack of eshift noise, better motion, better sync times, etc.
It's not that I think resolution is not that important, I really do think it is important, but it is also totally dependent on seating distance and source, so it does not apply equally to everyone. At my seating distance, and with most of my sources, the advantage isn't going to be nearly as big as some. 10' from 120" 2.35 / 106" 16:9. I know the NX series has a more stable and sharper image, I've been told that by several people, but it's all incremental really unless you sit very close.

Tone mapping taking care of by MadVR, eshift noise - mine's in a closet - hope I won't hear it, better motion - well I'm coming from an old JVC which has horrid motion - hopefully I'll see some improvement. Better sync-times, this is annoying especially if troubleshooting, but hopefully won't have to troubleshoot HDMI again (cross fingers).

The problem is the NX-7 and NX-9 are really more than I want to pay, so they are off the list, which leaves me with an NX-5. That's a LOT of contrast loss to be frank, with the NX-7 or NX-9 I could live with it, but on the NX-5 it's too much for me to live with. If I want sharper 4k image, then I can go get an Optoma UHD 51 refurb to watch bright stuff (or something similar). The DLP's may not be native, but some of them looking closer to native anyhow.

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post #2776 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 05:17 PM
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In general many JVC owners have been conditioned to the dogma that resolution is not that important, contrast and black levels are the determining factor in image quality. JVC encouraged this thinking as it was self serving when they did not have a reasonably priced native 4K panel and were forced to push eshift technology. I owned an eshift unit and had the same opinion. Having upgraded to native 4K RS1000, I can say without a doubt that the added resolution makes a substantial visual difference. I was relieved to find out that the laws of physics and biology were still intact.

My point is that while contrast may be slightly lower than comparable eshift models the N series more than compensates with native resolution. That's not counting tone mapping, calmer image, lack of eshift noise, better motion, better sync times, etc.
In the past few years, the issue was not so much resolution, it was actually the build quality on the Sony projectors mainly.

I started with a 4K Sony 300ES... it has a terrible lens, CA all over, fringing, posterization, bad contrast as well. When I got a JVC, I was actually floored at how good its lens was in the X7000, contrast was obviously huge too, but it was actually the package as a whole. Then the 9500 I got had an even better lens, in fact, I haven't had a machine in my room yet with a better lens in terms of optics..

You are lucky that the first native machine you moved to had all of the above, an excellent and proven updated lens and native 4k, very good processing which does not force noise reduction or the like...

Bottom line is, back when a lot of us were saying that, it was born out of the fact that yes, while the eshift machines were technically about 3k vs 4k, they ticked every other box SO well that the overall package was the better option compared to a vendor who made native 4k panels, yes, but the rest of their package was quite ordinary. I hear the Sony;'s finally have good lenses now, but then when you look at JVC's native offerings its a real head scratcher as to why anybody would actually buy a Sony at this point unless they want the more expensive laser options based purely on its light engine.

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post #2777 of 2790 Old 06-14-2019, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
In general many JVC owners have been conditioned to the dogma that resolution is not that important, contrast and black levels are the determining factor in image quality. JVC encouraged this thinking as it was self serving when they did not have a reasonably priced native 4K panel and were forced to push eshift technology. I owned an eshift unit and had the same opinion. Having upgraded to native 4K RS1000, I can say without a doubt that the added resolution makes a substantial visual difference. I was relieved to find out that the laws of physics and biology were still intact.

My point is that while contrast may be slightly lower than comparable eshift models the N series more than compensates with native resolution. That's not counting tone mapping, calmer image, lack of eshift noise, better motion, better sync times, etc.
I completely agree as that is my experience as well. I have owned many, many JVCs dating back to the HD1/ RS1 and couldn't be happier with the NX5 (minus this blue bar issue https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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post #2778 of 2790 Old 06-15-2019, 07:16 AM
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I don't doubt that the RS-3000 beats the RS-640 in every way, but it has way higher contrast than the NX-5. I am going to be paying less for a used RS-640 then I would be paying for a new RS-540, so that isn't even in my budget. Hoping to snag an RS-640 for $2.5k is what I'm looking at in the used market.
I don't know if you would find one for that price today, but if you wait long enough eventually you will....
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post #2779 of 2790 Old 06-15-2019, 01:38 PM
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I don't know if you would find one for that price today, but if you wait long enough eventually you will....
You'd be surprised how cheap projectors go on Craig's list, people are generally desperate to get rid of them because usually they are moving. Could have picked up an RS-56 for $500, but decided not to. Even if someone is asking $3500 to $4000, I can probably get them down to $3000 or less...
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I missed an RS-640 on CL for $3000 earlier this year, the guy was moving and wanted to sell it. Fully calibrated and came with an extra lamp.
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post #2781 of 2790 Old 06-16-2019, 06:20 AM
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I missed an RS-640 on CL for $3000 earlier this year, the guy was moving and wanted to sell it. Fully calibrated and came with an extra lamp.
That's the biggest issue, getting it fast enough. They sell fast.

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That's the biggest issue, getting it fast enough. They sell fast.
I sold my RS640 on craigslist for $3000 cash with extra lamp. If I had to ship that to someone and deal with some online payment method, I'd have required at least $3500 though. Local sale, cash in hand is a lot different. Also sold my RS500 for $2000 cash local sale. Both those are good options for you.

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post #2783 of 2790 Old 06-16-2019, 07:18 AM
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I sold my RS640 on craigslist for $3000 cash with extra lamp. If I had to ship that to someone and deal with some online payment method, I'd have required at least $3500 though. Local sale, cash in hand is a lot different. Also sold my RS500 for $2000 cash local sale. Both those are good options for you.
Plus I know the condition I am receiving the projector in, which is the main reason to go this route. I'm going to require they turn it on for me at the very least.

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post #2784 of 2790 Old 07-10-2019, 05:16 PM
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Have Arrow's and Kris Deering's shoot-outs between the projectors moved to another thread or has this thread just withered away? I know Arrow got pulled away by his involvement in a theatre build (either personal or professional) but does anyone know if the shoot-outs are still on the horizon. It's really just a matter of curiosity as I've opted to sit out this iteration of the JVC's and went with the Epson 6050/9400 and am using the savings to upgrade receiver/player/ subs/ Atmos/ cinema instead. But others might be on the fence and waiting for those shootouts.
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post #2785 of 2790 Old 07-12-2019, 08:38 PM
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Have Arrow's and Kris Deering's shoot-outs between the projectors moved to another thread or has this thread just withered away? I know Arrow got pulled away by his involvement in a theatre build (either personal or professional) but does anyone know if the shoot-outs are still on the horizon. It's really just a matter of curiosity as I've opted to sit out this iteration of the JVC's and went with the Epson 6050/9400 and am using the savings to upgrade receiver/player/ subs/ Atmos/ cinema instead. But others might be on the fence and waiting for those shootouts.
Think it has withered away.
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post #2786 of 2790 Old 07-13-2019, 07:02 PM
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Think it has withered away.
Might be for the best for me. At this point, I'm not sure I want a comparison telling me I made the wrong choice.
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post #2787 of 2790 Old 07-14-2019, 03:52 PM
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What if I told you that that RS4910 looked just as sharp or sharper and just as calm or calmer than that NX9?
I would say there was something severely wrong with that NX9 because otherwise it is a comical statement.

I owned a very nice sample RS4910/X500 and my RS440 is a step above it.
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post #2788 of 2790 Old 07-15-2019, 05:34 PM
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My Epson 8350 finally burnt out tonight after about 8 years of use and I need some help comparing projectors because I can't seem to find major differences. I've been looking at the Epson 5050 and 6050. Seems like all I can find is that the 6 comes with a bulb, mount and an extra year on the warranty. Also looking at the XX40 variants but have heard that the XX50's have fixes built in that caused issues with the 40 models like maybe some power issues? My theaters light is totally controlled with no daylight entering the space.


So I guess what I'm asking is whats the reason to go with the 6 series over the 5?
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post #2789 of 2790 Old 07-15-2019, 07:18 PM
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My Epson 8350 finally burnt out tonight after about 8 years of use and I need some help comparing projectors because I can't seem to find major differences. I've been looking at the Epson 5050 and 6050. Seems like all I can find is that the 6 comes with a bulb, mount and an extra year on the warranty. Also looking at the XX40 variants but have heard that the XX50's have fixes built in that caused issues with the 40 models like maybe some power issues? My theaters light is totally controlled with no daylight entering the space.


So I guess what I'm asking is whats the reason to go with the 6 series over the 5?
bulb, mount, extra year of warranty, hand picked lens, black housing, anamorphic stretch modes and additional calibration controls.
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post #2790 of 2790 Old Yesterday, 08:41 AM
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bulb, mount, extra year of warranty, hand picked lens, black housing, anamorphic stretch modes and additional calibration controls.
It would be nice if Epson begins to offer simply an optional case color, black/white, for both the 50xx and 60xx. I could see some people wanting the better lens but in a white case for a bright environment and some wanting the black case with the lesser cost.
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