BenQ HT9060 / x12000h Owners Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evonimos View Post
Sure, that makes sense.

They are DLP after all.
Even a 'wiggling' panel must be quite sharp, compared to what else is out there.

But that is not the point I was making.
What I'm saying is that wiggling 4K DLPs, are making life so much easier for the marketing departments of competing tech.

Yet, the guys at Texas Instruments seem like they couldn't care less..

Is it that they rule supreme in every other domain, except maybe the consumer home-cinema segment(?)
And just allow some space for the rest of the guys to play?
TI has developed a native 4K chip, but as of right now, only found on the commercial side in DCI projectors. It has twice the native contrast of the .66 XPR projectors, but still very low native contrast at 2,400:1. The people on the forum, know what XPR DLP is and know how sharp the image is, so that is not stopping forum members from purchasing. It is the low native contrast that most posters object about. As for the general public, they do not know the difference between native 4k and the XPR 4K projectors, so the fact that it shifts, does not matter to them.
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post #452 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by evonimos View Post
Maybe you are right.
I really don't know what exactly goes on with that.

If I had a way to demo similarly specified units from competing tech, maybe I 'd have something to add on that.
But I don't have that opportunity so as of now, I just find the official contrast figures on the consumer units quite amusing.

What I mean is that it's impossible for me to draw any conclusions based on the published values alone.


PS:
Sorry about the subsequent post.
I am still learning the way the quoting works.
I get to see a lot of projectors, LCOS, LCD, SXRD and XPR DLP. So I know what they all look like. But what is best depends on, budget, room and what you feel is important. For myself, I want what looks best in a blacked out, optimized room, so that knocks out any projector with low native contrast.

You can't look at manufacturers published numbers for contrast or lumens. Most manufacturers publish dynamic contrast numbers and even those, most of the time are BS. You need to look at reviews from trusted reviewers and there are not a lot of those out there that I trust.
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post #453 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evonimos View Post
...What I mean is that it's impossible for me to draw any conclusions based on the published values alone.
Forum members used to place considerable weight on published information, but not so much anymore. Yes, manufacturers took some liberties around the edges, but we had a pretty good handle on the nature of how specs were stated and abused.

Understanding why these old ways were set aside, reveals the reason was not so much about the inherent reliability of the information, but rather about what best served brand loyalty narratives and the schilling of the latest products by some forum members and their acolytes.

Being able to see various products in action, still remains the best way judge for yourself. When demoing product is not possible, member recommendations are a great source of information, so long as you can sort out brand biases and economic conflicts of interest.

Bottom line, there many terrific alternatives, and the best choice is really more about knowing your own differentiating preferences.

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post #454 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Forum members used to place considerable weight on published information, but not so much anymore. Yes, manufacturers took some liberties around the edges, but we had a pretty good handle on the nature of how specs were stated and abused.

Understanding why these old ways were set aside, reveals the reason was not so much about the inherent reliability of the information, but rather about what best served brand loyalty narratives and the schilling of the latest products by some forum members and their acolytes.


Being able to see various products in action, still remains the best way judge for yourself. When demoing product is not possible, member recommendations are a great source of information, so long as you can sort out brand biases and economic conflicts of interest.

Bottom line, there many terrific alternatives, and the best choice is really more about knowing your own differentiating preferences.
Really??? LCD numbers for brightness and contrast are as BS now as they were years ago. DLP, LCOS and SXRD can be just as bad, especially if laser is involved and the manufacturer list infinity to 1 for contrast. Only manufacturer that ever gave native contrast numbers was JVC. None of the others companies ever did that. Even with JVC, you have to know exactly what they are saying, since their max native contrast number is with the manual iris fully closed. Which corresponds to the lowest light output. That is why you need to look at trusted reviews, so that you know what the native contrast is with iris fully open. Then you can interpolate what your SDR native contrast will be and your HDR native contrast.

Seeing the projector in action is great, if you are seeing them in your environment or in a room like your environment, but even then you do not know if the projector was set up correctly. Also screen size, screen gain and throw can make a big difference. Most dealers sell all the brands talked about here and if it was only to line their pockets, then the brand with the highest markup would always get the recommendation. As for what is best, as I said earlier, it comes down to budget, room, what you are going to use the projector for and what you have a preference for. Some value laser as a highly desirable feature, others may value something else.
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post #455 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Forum members used to place considerable weight on published information, but not so much anymore. Yes, manufacturers took some liberties around the edges, but we had a pretty good handle on the nature of how specs were stated and abused.

Understanding why these old ways were set aside, reveals the reason was not so much about the inherent reliability of the information, but rather about what best served brand loyalty narratives and the schilling of the latest products by some forum members and their acolytes.

Being able to see various products in action, still remains the best way judge for yourself. When demoing product is not possible, member recommendations are a great source of information, so long as you can sort out brand biases and economic conflicts of interest.

Bottom line, there many terrific alternatives, and the best choice is really more about knowing your own differentiating preferences.
There's a lot of truth in what you're writing and I agree.
Especially what you write about personal preferences and judging for oneself.

And trying before buying is ideal.
Unfortunately, for many of us the latter is almost an impossibility.

Now, regarding who's to blame for the astronomical figures circus..
Well, in my opinion we shouldn't put too much blame on fellow 'forumites', with their enthusiasm for a certain brand/tech and all.
We all have our favorites.

I think it'd be more appropriate to focus our attention mostly towards the professional reviewers and the manufacturers themselves for bringing up and perpetuating that mess.

And as with everything else, success and profits can breed greed..
When that happens, it can mess things up big time.

Last edited by evonimos; 09-21-2019 at 04:32 PM.
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post #456 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by evonimos View Post
OK, i get that when it does the wiggling.

But what if you just feed that exact resolution somehow to the unit.
It will not switch to that native mode without engaging 'silent mode'?
I've never tried that, but I have tried feeding it lesser resolution and had to manually select Silent Mode.

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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
You are way off base. XPR DLP is plenty sharp now. Native 4K gains DLP next to nothing in sharpness. Native 4K DLP will help greatly with lag, but where DLP needs the most help is with native contrast. If XPR DLP could get good native contrast, they would own the HT market, other than gamers.
I'd like to add to your point by saying the precision found in single-chip DLPs is a concept that is separate and distinct from resolution. Single Chippers, like the HT9060, regardless of 1528x2 resolution will inherently yield crisper, sharper lines than their three-chip counter-parts. However, the higher the resolution the more detail is fleshed out from the source. So, while the HT9060 has the advantage of being single-chip, having a reference lens, and no real RBE issues, it would put even slightly more detail on the screen, I think, if its resolution were full, native 4K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evonimos View Post

Now, regarding who's to blame for the astronomical figures circus..
I think some of it has to do with how the measurements are taken and even possibly when they were taken (before final product launch, change in software, etc.). Even JVC's NX7, for example, with its published 800,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, and the NX9 with its 1,000,000:1 is not accurate, at least not now, given that my NX7 can hit only around the 200,000:1 dynamic range and Kris Deering measured the NX9 in the S&V review to have a dynamic contrast ratio of 232,500:1 --yes, a high number, but less than 1/4 of the 1,000,000:1 published spec. The software on these projectors has been changed since launch, but the published specs still stand.

Source: JVC's Website, NX9 Specs:
https://www.us.jvc.com/projectors/procision/dla_nx9/


Source Sound and Vision, Test Bench:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/newre...ply&p=58590384

Last edited by Aztar35; 09-21-2019 at 06:08 PM.
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post #457 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Bottom line, there many terrific alternatives, and the best choice is really more about knowing your own differentiating preferences.
That's so true. For example, if a great lens is your thing, the HT9060 has the best projector lens I've ever seen, and with those HLD LEDs and improvements over its predecessor model, the HT9060 can be very competitive.

I probably would still own one if it weren't for some expectations and timing.
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post #458 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I've never tried that, but I have tried feeding it lesser resolution and had to manually select Silent Mode.



I'd like to add to your point by saying the precision found in single-chip DLPs is a concept that is separate and distinct from resolution. Single Chippers, like the HT9060, regardless of 1528x2 resolution will inherently yield crisper, sharper lines than their three-chip counter-parts. However, the higher the resolution the more detail is fleshed out from the source. So, while the HT9060 has the advantage of being single-chip, having a reference lens, and no real RBE issues, it would put even slightly more detail on the screen, I think, if its resolution were full, native 4K.



I think some of it has to do with how the measurements are taken and even possibly when they were taken (before final product launch, change in software, etc.). Even JVC's NX7, for example, with its published 800,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, and the NX9 with its 1,000,000:1 is not accurate, at least not now, given that my NX7 can hit only around the 200,000:1 dynamic range and Kris Deering measured the NX9 in the S&V review to have a dynamic contrast ratio of 232,500:1 --yes, a high number, but less than 1/4 of the 1,000,000:1 published spec. The software on these projectors has been changed since launch, but the published specs still stand.

Source: JVC's Website, NX9 Specs:
https://www.us.jvc.com/projectors/procision/dla_nx9/


Source Sound and Vision, Test Bench:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/newre...ply&p=58590384
Maybe, but nothing to complain about sharpness wise with XPR, when paired with a good lens.
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post #459 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 07:25 PM
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Would you think of the new Philips HLD as superior to the laser phosphor engine?
In terms of image quality as well as durability?

I believe the HLD light source must be complete color wheel free, while the lasers still employ color wheels.
I might be wrong though.
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post #460 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evonimos View Post
Would you think of the new Philips HLD as superior to the laser phosphor engine?
In terms of image quality as well as durability?

I believe the HLD light source must be complete color wheel free, while the lasers still employ color wheels.
I might be wrong though.
In terms of durability maybe, since the LEDs don't use a color wheel; but in terms of image quality, no.

The DLP lasers employ more aggressive dimming and can do a nice fade to black. Also, the blue laser can get very bright and has a unique look that I like. On the flip side, the LEDs can natively do wider color that the lasers so far can't without the aid of a filter. So each has an advantage that the other doesn't.

Personally, if it weren't for RBE, I would prefer a laser over the LED.
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post #461 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post

I probably would still own one if it weren't for some expectations and timing.
If you had to do it over again would you still get the NX7 over the HT9060?
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post #462 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 09:52 PM
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That's a great question; it gets right down to the heart of it. I wish I could have the HT9060's lens and light engine in the NX7 or the NX7's contrast and native panels in the HT9060. They are both excellent projectors and what each lacks, it can make up for in other areas if you look for it.

When I first had the NX7, I was so used to the solid look of the LEDs and mind-blowing precision of the HT9060 that it took a while to make a fair comparison. But now I'm so used to the ultra high contrast and clean image of the NX7, that yes I would do it again.
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post #463 of 514 Old 09-21-2019, 10:16 PM
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Thanks for the update. Hopefully the DTM pushes the NX7 forward again for you. Be interesting to see what BenQ announces at CES if anything.
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post #464 of 514 Old 09-29-2019, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
When I first had the NX7, I was so used to the solid look of the LEDs and mind-blowing precision of the HT9060 that it took a while to make a fair comparison. But now I'm so used to the ultra high contrast and clean image of the NX7, that yes I would do it again.
Thanks for the comparison! Can you please clarify, what do you mean exactly by the "clean image of the NX7"? Is it "clean" in the same sense the Sony's image used to be considered "cleaner" (less grain) than traditional JVC's? Previously I would read someone calling JVC's image a bit "noisy", esp. when compared to Sony's. Have they changed it in NX versions for the better or you mean something else? Thanks!
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post #465 of 514 Old 09-29-2019, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
That's a great question; it gets right down to the heart of it. I wish I could have the HT9060's lens and light engine in the NX7 or the NX7's contrast and native panels in the HT9060. They are both excellent projectors and what each lacks, it can make up for in other areas if you look for it.

When I first had the NX7, I was so used to the solid look of the LEDs and mind-blowing precision of the HT9060 that it took a while to make a fair comparison. But now I'm so used to the ultra high contrast and clean image of the NX7, that yes I would do it again.
Yep you're basically describing an RS4500. And you had such a great price on one a few months ago and passed.
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post #466 of 514 Old 10-01-2019, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtemF View Post
Thanks for the comparison! Can you please clarify, what do you mean exactly by the "clean image of the NX7"? Is it "clean" in the same sense the Sony's image used to be considered "cleaner" (less grain) than traditional JVC's? Previously I would read someone calling JVC's image a bit "noisy", esp. when compared to Sony's. Have they changed it in NX versions for the better or you mean something else? Thanks!
The new JVCs appear cleaner to me with less digital noise than the e-shifters. Going by memory, the NX7 I have even looks a tad cleaner than the 695ES that I had.


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Yep you're basically describing an RS4500. And you had such a great price on one a few months ago and passed.
Woofer said that when he had the BenQ side-by-side with his RS4500 that the BenQ looked visibly sharper. Perhaps that's due to the single chip design of the LK.
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post #467 of 514 Old 10-01-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
The new JVCs appear cleaner to me with less digital noise than the e-shifters. Going by memory, the NX7 I have even looks a tad cleaner than the 695ES that I had.




Woofer said that when he had the BenQ side-by-side with his RS4500 that the BenQ looked visibly sharper. Perhaps that's due to the single chip design of the LK.
I guess it depends on content. The RS4500 just destroys the BenQ LK970 on desktop text at 3840x2160, for example. I imagine this might translate to games as well with sharp text. It's hard to say. The QBF pattern looked good on the LK970 though.

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I guess it depends on content. The RS4500 just destroys the BenQ LK970 on desktop text at 3840x2160, for example. I imagine this might translate to games as well with sharp text. It's hard to say. The QBF pattern looked good on the LK970 though.
That's true but confusing to me at the same time. Shashank, who has the HT9060, said of all the projectors he's had that the BenQ looked the best with desktop text, and he had the Epson and the Sony 695ES.
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
That's true but confusing to me at the same time. Shashank, who has the HT9060, said of all the projectors he's had that the BenQ looked the best with desktop text, and he had the Epson and the Sony 695ES.
Yea most people dont run 3840x2160 @ 100% DPI. The default is 200% DPI and 100% DPI is really small. At 150% DPI, you approach the native resolution of the BenQ's and the text sharpens up a ton. The 695ES was a lot sharper on desktop text also than the LK970 - at 100% DPI.
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So I've decided to ceiling mount this projector, what mount is everyone using for it? The only one I've found for it mounts it with a long pole. I need something that's SUPER close to the ceiling as I have an 8' ceiling.
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post #471 of 514 Old 10-02-2019, 10:58 AM
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So I've decided to ceiling mount this projector, what mount is everyone using for it? The only one I've found for it mounts it with a long pole. I need something that's SUPER close to the ceiling as I have an 8' ceiling.
I would use either the Chief RPA mount or the RPMA mount. The RPMA has better adjustment. The RPA is slightly smaller in height.
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post #472 of 514 Old 10-02-2019, 11:28 AM
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So I've decided to ceiling mount this projector, what mount is everyone using for it? The only one I've found for it mounts it with a long pole. I need something that's SUPER close to the ceiling as I have an 8' ceiling.
This is what I am using - https://www.legrandav.com/en/product...ing/rpa/rpa281
This is slimmer than the universal "spider style" mount from Chief and other brands. Use it with a 3" pole and you will have the projector really close to the ceiling.
https://www.projectorsuperstore.com/...productid=6458

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post #473 of 514 Old 10-03-2019, 04:51 PM
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Question: Which DLP glasses work best w/ BenQ 9060

Hi, venturing into checking out the 3D in my 9060, wondering if anyone has found the best glasses choice?
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post #474 of 514 Old 10-04-2019, 08:56 AM
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post #475 of 514 Old 10-04-2019, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
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New HT9060 review for what it's worth.



https://www.projectorcentral.com/Ben...tor-Review.htm
Is this true, I thought these are free from colorwheels?

"It is the brightness of this green primary (in combination with the blue and red LED output) that allows the ColorSpark engine to greatly exceed the light output of typical LED engines. In the HT9060, the white light formed by combining the R, G, and B lights from all three banks is then bounced off the DLP chip's mirrors, and passed through a spinning color filter wheel to form a full color image. This approach is similar to how most two-color (red and blue) laser-phosphor light engines operate in single-chip DLP projectors.

The inclusion of a sequential color wheel in this and some other LED light engines may come as a surprise. There was early speculation that the HLD LED engine might eliminate the need for a color wheel and therefore eliminate the rainbow artifacts found in lamp-based, single-chip DLP projectors. That effect, for those who are sensitive to it, has been reduced over the years in single-chip DLP models mainly by using higher-speed (2x to 3x) color wheels. But removing the color wheel altogether was never the goal of the HLD LED engine, which was designed primarily to provide a longer-lasting light source that also produced a better color spectrum than the typical lamp. That wider color gamut may have reduced the need for some of the secondary colors typically found in color wheels, including cyan and magenta. However, Benq's initial published specs for the HT9060 showed that it includes a 1x speed (120 rpm) color wheel, and I saw rainbows clearly in test videos prone to reveal them. I further found that these increased slightly in the projector's HDR mode. Ultimately, our usual advice about rainbows applies: If you're sensitive to them or don't know if you are, work with a retailer/integrator who will work with you in the event you find them bothersome."

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post #476 of 514 Old 10-04-2019, 09:25 AM
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Is this true, I thought these are free from colorwheels?

"It is the brightness of this green primary (in combination with the blue and red LED output) that allows the ColorSpark engine to greatly exceed the light output of typical LED engines. In the HT9060, the white light formed by combining the R, G, and B lights from all three banks is then bounced off the DLP chip's mirrors, and passed through a spinning color filter wheel to form a full color image. This approach is similar to how most two-color (red and blue) laser-phosphor light engines operate in single-chip DLP projectors.

The inclusion of a sequential color wheel in this and some other LED light engines may come as a surprise. There was early speculation that the HLD LED engine might eliminate the need for a color wheel and therefore eliminate the rainbow artifacts found in lamp-based, single-chip DLP projectors. That effect, for those who are sensitive to it, has been reduced over the years in single-chip DLP models mainly by using higher-speed (2x to 3x) color wheels. But removing the color wheel altogether was never the goal of the HLD LED engine, which was designed primarily to provide a longer-lasting light source that also produced a better color spectrum than the typical lamp. That wider color gamut may have reduced the need for some of the secondary colors typically found in color wheels, including cyan and magenta. However, Benq's initial published specs for the HT9060 showed that it includes a 1x speed (120 rpm) color wheel, and I saw rainbows clearly in test videos prone to reveal them. I further found that these increased slightly in the projector's HDR mode. Ultimately, our usual advice about rainbows applies: If you're sensitive to them or don't know if you are, work with a retailer/integrator who will work with you in the event you find them bothersome."

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I believe it is accurate.

As well as does the BenQ literature state a 1x 120Hz color wheel.

https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf...spec_10741.pdf

FWIW I have seen this projector, and this particular color wheel design is far less prone to showing rainbows. I can confirm that I could also still see rainbows when looking at test patterns (such as a white grid on black), but I did not see them at all in normal video content. Normally I see rainbows in normal content on any other DLP that I have ever seen.

Personally I would not give the same warning to others about rainbows on the HT9060 as other DLPs, but maybe there is someone out there who is even more sensitive than I who would see them in normal content, but I have to think that it would be pretty rare.
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post #477 of 514 Old 10-04-2019, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I believe it is accurate.

As well as does the BenQ literature state a 1x 120Hz color wheel.

https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf...spec_10741.pdf

FWIW I have seen this projector, and this particular color wheel design is far less prone to showing rainbows. I can confirm that I could also still see rainbows when looking at test patterns (such as a white grid on black), but I did not see them at all in normal video content. Normally I see rainbows in normal content on any other DLP that I have ever seen.

Personally I would not give the same warning to others about rainbows on the HT9060 as other DLPs, but maybe there is someone out there who is even more sensitive than I who would see them in normal content, but I have to think that it would be pretty rare.
This explains why some people said they could see mild RBE.
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post #478 of 514 Old 10-04-2019, 04:16 PM
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This explains why some people said they could see mild RBE.
I think even without a wheel, since it's a single chip where the colors are never all on at the same time, you could still can get RBE. The LEDs sequencing and speed are a factor, I would guess. With that said, I never felt RBE was an issue with the HT9060. Kris Deering wrote/said RBE was not an issue with the 9060. And I don't recall seeing them on the 9060. These projectors are apparently in high demand too.

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post #479 of 514 Old 10-04-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I think even without a wheel, since it's a single chip where the colors are never all on at the same time, you still can get RBE. The LEDs sequencing and speed are a factor, I would guess. With that said, I never felt RBE was an issue with the HT9060. I don't recall seeing them on the 9060 either. These projectors are apparently in high demand too.
I think you took my post wrong. From what I have read and talked to people that have had the 9060, I agree RBE is really a none issue. I just was surprised when anybody said they saw RBE at all on the 9060, since I thought the LED's were cycling very quickly. The color wheel explains why anybody saw them at all.
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post #480 of 514 Old 10-04-2019, 04:25 PM
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I think you took my post wrong. From what I have read and talked to people that have had the 9060, I agree RBE is really a none issue. I just was surprised when anybody said they saw RBE at all on the 9060, since I thought the LED's were cycling very quickly. The color wheel explains why anybody saw them at all.
I'm trying to understand the make up because I think the HT9060 uses true LEDs for Red and Blue, so I'm wondering if the wheel addresses the green phosphor and yellow. I would have to confirm and if so, I'm not sure that would be enough to induce color separation artifacts.
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