BenQ HT9060 / x12000h Owners Thread - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 653 Old 10-14-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DoctorCyclops View Post
In their review, they use both the terms “flashing” and “colorwheel” in a confusing way, but are clear that there is no color wheel and that the low likelihood of potential rainbows is because the “flashing” works faster than any color wheel possibly could.
Yep color wheels are capped at around 5x for accurate color. LEDs can electronically cycle up to 18x while providing wider/more accurate color than a wheel

Reviewers get this wrong from time to time are there due to an erroneous spec sheet that was copied from a lamp or blue laser projector or simply because most single chip DLPs have a color wheel

There actually are no LED DLP projectors with a color wheel that have ever been made to my knowledge. it's probably more expensive to implement to color wheel and you would get worse performance so it would make no sense from an engineering standpoint.

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post #512 of 653 Old 10-14-2019, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Yep color wheels are capped at around 5x for accurate color. LEDs can electronically cycle up to 18x while providing wider/more accurate color than a wheel

Reviewers get this wrong from time to time are there due to an erroneous spec sheet that was copied from a lamp or blue laser projector or simply because most single chip DLPs have a color wheel

There actually are no LED DLP projectors with a color wheel that have ever been made to my knowledge. it's probably more expensive to implement to color wheel and you would get worse performance so it would make no sense from an engineering standpoint.
You mean RGB LED? Aren't there white LED DLP projectors? Wouldn't those use color wheels?
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post #513 of 653 Old 10-14-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
You mean RGB LED? Aren't there white LED DLP projectors? Wouldn't those use color wheels?
I dunno maybe in the business projector or ultra cheap space?

In home theater I've never seen any DLP LED other than RGB/HLD with 3 seperate color elements.
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post #514 of 653 Old 10-14-2019, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ProCentral Rob View Post
I will reach out directly to our internal contacts at BenQ on this now and ask for a clear and straight answer. Putting aside that I very specifically stated that whatever diagram BenQ has placed on its website may be oversimplified or inaccurate, no one should take anything I've posted here to mean that I believe us incapable of a mistake and will stand to the death by something that proves by reliable means to be wrong. I learned early in my editorial career, from Brent Butterworth when he was running the lab at Home Theater in the late 1990s, that it is better to send your review to the manufacturer up front for a factcheck, even a very negative review, than it is to commit to print (as everything was in those days) a review populated with one big or a bunch of small errors that then have to be corrected. This process is what actually protects our credibility and allows us to always say we did the best we could to be right on behalf of our readers as well as the manufacturers. And in my experience, that process has worked something very close to 100% of the time to fix mistakes before they happen, most certainly very big ones as this one would be.
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post #515 of 653 Old 10-20-2019, 07:58 PM
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This just in. Australian Review, BENQ salesperson mentions color wheel. https://youtu.be/aVOrruNA4vA
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post #516 of 653 Old 10-20-2019, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorCyclops View Post
This just in. Australian Review, BENQ salesperson mentions color wheel. https://youtu.be/aVOrruNA4vA
Read the comments below the video,he corrects himself when someone calls him out on it.
Click image for larger version

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post #517 of 653 Old 10-20-2019, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfarina View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorCyclops View Post
This just in. Australian Review, BENQ salesperson mentions color wheel. https://youtu.be/aVOrruNA4vA
Read the comments below the video,he corrects himself when someone calls him out on it.
Attachment 2629988
Ahh, good catch. Thx.
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post #518 of 653 Old 11-16-2019, 08:08 AM
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I've had my HT9060 for a couple months now,finally got it to the point where I am really happy.Originally when I got it I was satisfied with it coming from my older W7000,but was expecting a little more of an improvement.Did a little room treatment and it made a world of difference.Room has off white walls and ceiling with good light control,so I went with an ALR screen,but really didn't like the hot spotting and sparkles and returned it for a matt white screen.The combination of the white screen and room treatment made the colors really pop,looks almost like a 135" LED TV!!Pics show what I did for the room to manage the light.
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Benq HT9060,Elunevision Reference Studio 135",Denon AVR-X3300W,Panasonic UB820, B&W DM S3
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post #519 of 653 Old 11-16-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfarina View Post
I've had my HT9060 for a couple months now,finally got it to the point where I am really happy.Originally when I got it I was satisfied with it coming from my older W7000,but was expecting a little more of an improvement.Did a little room treatment and it made a world of difference.Room has off white walls and ceiling with good light control,so I went with an ALR screen,but really didn't like the hot spotting and sparkles and returned it for a matt white screen.The combination of the white screen and room treatment made the colors really pop,looks almost like a 135" LED TV!!Pics show what I did for the room to manage the light.
Looks gorgeous!

What's the gain of your screen?
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post #520 of 653 Old 11-16-2019, 11:54 AM
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Thanks,the screen material is elunevision reference studio 4k that has a 1.0 gain.
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post #521 of 653 Old 11-18-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ALRLIFE View Post
Those pics look amazing! I am anxiously awaiting for the price to come down a bit or a refurb for this projector. I'm betting the image is razor sharp in person. I was a black level freak, but now I am starting to lean towards high resolution single chip projectors for excellent clarity.
IMO, Benq DLP has excellent sharpness and color "pop". I just wish they would offer a 4K machine with powered lens controls/lens memory. Like you, many are moving towards the the single chip direction and away from "ultimate black level". Personally, it seems like we watch way more bright movies and sports, than dark movies and SciFi content. We may as well optimize the display for what we view most often...
Sony and JVC have had powered lens controls/lens memory as "standard" features for years now. Since the black level battle is effectively "lost", in order for the DLP makers to compete, they have to close the gap in other areas.
My $.02
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post #522 of 653 Old 11-27-2019, 05:39 AM
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Hi all,


just registered here since I own a X12000h (=HT9060) since a while. I would like to ask if anyone else has a non-uniform sharpness across the screen? E.g. if I set left lower corner sharp the right upper corner text is not even readable (which is without problems in the left lower corner of course). Also sharpness changes a bit over time (heating up of the projector). I now contacted BenQ and started a RMA. However: anyone else experienced that?


Another Question: the smart Eco Mode seems to check always for the brightest pixel in the image. So if there is e.g. a dark scene with a fire the fires is priority and all dark environment is no longer black but grey due to high lamp power. Any idea how to tweak this? I use JRiver with MadVR and FFDshow but found nothing to Limit Peak brightness in dependence on image average brightness or similar. Or Maybe newer Firmware may help?


Thanks
Ron
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post #523 of 653 Old 11-27-2019, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Sebastian View Post
Hi all,


just registered here since I own a X12000h (=HT9060) since a while. I would like to ask if anyone else has a non-uniform sharpness across the screen? E.g. if I set left lower corner sharp the right upper corner text is not even readable (which is without problems in the left lower corner of course). Also sharpness changes a bit over time (heating up of the projector). I now contacted BenQ and started a RMA. However: anyone else experienced that?


Another Question: the smart Eco Mode seems to check always for the brightest pixel in the image. So if there is e.g. a dark scene with a fire the fires is priority and all dark environment is no longer black but grey due to high lamp power. Any idea how to tweak this? I use JRiver with MadVR and FFDshow but found nothing to Limit Peak brightness in dependence on image average brightness or similar. Or Maybe newer Firmware may help?


Thanks
Ron
The blurry corner is a property of the lens (usually). Not all of them are perfect, although these projectors generally have very good lenses. I'd let the projector warm up at least 45 minutes before adjusting the focus and see if you can dial it in then. These lenses are so large that the uniformity does change as the room and projector hit operating temp. If at that time you still cannot get good enough focus to say read text in all areas of the screen, you should consider RMA.

The smart eco mode is just a limitation in the way the firmware is implemented I think.

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post #524 of 653 Old 11-27-2019, 06:14 AM
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Hi,


of course I can wait until heated up and that's what I did. Even then if I adjust it to a corner the opposite corner is horrible. If I adjust it to the center all corners are equal bad (better but still not acceptable for me; SHARP is not the definition for that).


Best regards
Ron
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post #525 of 653 Old 11-27-2019, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Sebastian View Post
Hi,


of course I can wait until heated up and that's what I did. Even then if I adjust it to a corner the opposite corner is horrible. If I adjust it to the center all corners are equal bad (better but still not acceptable for me; SHARP is not the definition for that).


Best regards
Ron
Yep, then contact BenQ for a replacement for your defective unit.

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post #526 of 653 Old 11-30-2019, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Sebastian View Post
Hi,


of course I can wait until heated up and that's what I did. Even then if I adjust it to a corner the opposite corner is horrible. If I adjust it to the center all corners are equal bad (better but still not acceptable for me; SHARP is not the definition for that).


Best regards
Ron
Yea,that’s not good.I checked mine and all 4 corners and middle look equally sharp.Looks like your only option would be to send it back.

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post #527 of 653 Old 12-02-2019, 12:14 AM
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Hi,


it will be picked up today for RMA. I really hope they fix it without issues. Besides this I love this thing! Thanks for checking yours dfarina!


Ron
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post #528 of 653 Old 01-02-2020, 08:26 AM
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I got a good price for my LK970 and was thinking of getting a 9060 to hold me over to see whats coming this year.

In some reviews it states that vivid mode covers up to 98% dci-p3 , couldnt that mode be used to calibrated a P3 3dlut with lumagen doing the DTM without touching the HDR build in modes ?
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post #529 of 653 Old 01-02-2020, 06:47 PM
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BenQ HT9060 / x12000h Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
I got a good price for my LK970 and was thinking of getting a 9060 to hold me over to see whats coming this year.



In some reviews it states that vivid mode covers up to 98% dci-p3 , couldnt that mode be used to calibrated a P3 3dlut with lumagen doing the DTM without touching the HDR build in modes ?


Yes with madVR or a Lumagen you can use Vivid with a 3DLUT to get almost full P3 coverage while keeping the projector in SDR gamma for the external tone-mapping.

I’ve seen a 9060 with madVR and it looks quite nice. Excellent color and sharpness and motion. Just the typical ~1000:1 contrast like all the 4K DLPs is the main downside.

Also essentially no rainbow effect which is nice.

Once calibrated (white balanced) in Vivid the 9060 is only like 1700-1800 lumens though. Bright but nothing real special.
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post #530 of 653 Old 01-02-2020, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Yes with madVR or a Lumagen you can use Vivid with a 3DLUT to get almost full P3 coverage while keeping the projector in SDR gamma for the external tone-mapping.

I’ve seen a 9060 with madVR and it looks quite nice. Excellent color and sharpness and motion. Just the typical ~1000:1 contrast like all the 4K DLPs is the main downside.

Also essentially no rainbow effect which is nice.

Once calibrated (white balanced) in Vivid the 9060 is only like 1700-1800 lumens though. Bright but nothing real special.
Per Kris Deering:
"The Lumagen won't help this projector much either. You are double tone mapping with a solution that isn't that great to start (the 9060) and still clips regardless. This projector would have worked well if the color gamut selection in the picture modes actually worked as advertised, but it doesn't. This is a frustrating projector because if it just did what it advertised that it could do, it would have a lot of options. But unfortunately that is just not the case (like the 9050) and firmware updates just don't seem to happen with BenQ."
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post #531 of 653 Old 01-02-2020, 09:46 PM
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Having owned the HT9060, I would point out that I could not get the HT9060 engage its wide color without receiving an HDR signal, hence SDR 709 color w/external TM or wide color without but you might be able to use double tone mapping.

The projector's colors look outstanding. The 9060 will put out colors reaching close to the full P3 range if it receives an HDR signal.
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post #532 of 653 Old 01-02-2020, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Yes with madVR or a Lumagen you can use Vivid with a 3DLUT to get almost full P3 coverage while keeping the projector in SDR gamma for the external tone-mapping.

I’ve seen a 9060 with madVR and it looks quite nice. Excellent color and sharpness and motion. Just the typical ~1000:1 contrast like all the 4K DLPs is the main downside.

Also essentially no rainbow effect which is nice.

Once calibrated (white balanced) in Vivid the 9060 is only like 1700-1800 lumens though. Bright but nothing real special.
It should have close to five times the contrast of his 970 for darker scenes; the dynamic contrast of the 9060 can get to around 4600:1 give or take. Plus it will have a similar lens and hardly any RBE, especially compared to the wheel-based 970. By the way, did @ProCentral Rob ever comment since his last post here concerning existence or non-existence of a color wheel?
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post #533 of 653 Old 01-02-2020, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
It should have close to five times the contrast of his 970 for darker scenes; the dynamic contrast of the 9060 can get to around 4600:1 give or take. Plus it will have a similar lens and hardly any RBE, especially compared to the wheel-based 970. By the way, did @ProCentral Rob ever comment since his last post here concerning existence or non-existence of a color wheel?
The dynamic contrast is useless for video content. It only dims on a 100% black screen, so fade to black works and that's it. If even 1 pixel is lit up there is no dimming so any scene with even 1 pixel lit up is at most ~1000:1.
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post #534 of 653 Old 01-02-2020, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Per Kris Deering:
"The Lumagen won't help this projector much either. You are double tone mapping with a solution that isn't that great to start (the 9060) and still clips regardless. This projector would have worked well if the color gamut selection in the picture modes actually worked as advertised, but it doesn't. This is a frustrating projector because if it just did what it advertised that it could do, it would have a lot of options. But unfortunately that is just not the case (like the 9050) and firmware updates just don't seem to happen with BenQ."
Well I will admit I have never used a Lumagen, but I know it works perfect with madVR.

I don't think Kris knows what madVR can do then. There is absolutely no reason there would be double tone mapping. madVR would be the only tone-mapping happening as madVR sends an SDR signal out. With the 9060 in Vivid mode, the primary gamut points are very close to DCI-P3 coordinates and so you can simply use a 3DLUT to convert the rest of the points within the gamut from rec709 coordinates to DCI-P3 coordinates and then you can in madVR select to output the BT.2020 source content converted to DCI-P3 coordinates so everything lines up and the playback uses the entire DCI-P3 gamut for the UHD content.

I simply assumed a Lumagen can do this but perhaps not if Kris doesn't think the Lumagen will make a 9060 work well with HDR. I know for a fact first hand that it does all work perfectly with madVR and thus will work with the Envy.
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post #535 of 653 Old 01-03-2020, 02:03 AM
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The dynamic contrast is useless for video content. It only dims on a 100% black screen, so fade to black works and that's it. If even 1 pixel is lit up there is no dimming so any scene with even 1 pixel lit up is at most ~1000:1.
Does the HT9060 SmartEco dimming really work only in full black screen? I thought @Aztar35 and maybe others said that it worked really well in darker screens and makes the black floor look a bit more convincing?

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post #536 of 653 Old 01-03-2020, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Having owned the HT9060, I would point out that I could not get the HT9060 engage its wide color without receiving an HDR signal, hence SDR 709 color w/external TM or wide color without but you might be able to use double tone mapping.

The projector's colors look outstanding. The 9060 will put out colors reaching close to the full P3 range if it receives an HDR signal.
Aztar in couple reviews its said that Vivid mode is the native gamut of this projector and it covers 98% dci-p3 if not 100%, it even covers higher than its HDR mode, kris pointed in his review that vivid mode has the native gamut but blue was way off so i m guessing a 3dlut will fix that easily.
My thinking is why would i need any HDR mode whatsover, i can simply calibrate a dci-p3 3dlut for madVR using vivid mode and let madVR do all the tone mapping.

Like Sirmaster is saying , this way i would take advantage of ht9069 excellent dcip3 colors and madvr excellent dtm.

Also i dont think the dimming only works with black screen , that is the case for full fade to black , ive read it disengagw when there is very bright objects with dark background though.

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post #537 of 653 Old 01-03-2020, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Yes with madVR or a Lumagen you can use Vivid with a 3DLUT to get almost full P3 coverage while keeping the projector in SDR gamma for the external tone-mapping.

I’️ve seen a 9060 with madVR and it looks quite nice. Excellent color and sharpness and motion. Just the typical ~1000:1 contrast like all the 4K DLPs is the main downside.

Also essentially no rainbow effect which is nice.

Once calibrated (white balanced) in Vivid the 9060 is only like 1700-1800 lumens though. Bright but nothing real special.
Per Kris Deering:
"The Lumagen won't help this projector much either. You are double tone mapping with a solution that isn't that great to start (the 9060) and still clips regardless. This projector would have worked well if the color gamut selection in the picture modes actually worked as advertised, but it doesn't. This is a frustrating projector because if it just did what it advertised that it could do, it would have a lot of options. But unfortunately that is just not the case (like the 9050) and firmware updates just don't seem to happen with BenQ."
Mike that is true if we r using the HDR mode, if using the Vivid mode i think it is doable even with the lumagen and doesnt need any double tone mapping , as i said kris pointed in his review that he tried vivid mode since its the projector native gamut and found out blue tracking was way off and it wasnt alligned correctly with bt2020, but a 3dlut should be able to fix that .

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Last edited by tnaik4; 01-03-2020 at 02:25 AM.
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post #538 of 653 Old 01-03-2020, 02:30 AM
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Yes with madVR or a Lumagen you can use Vivid with a 3DLUT to get almost full P3 coverage while keeping the projector in SDR gamma for the external tone-mapping.

I’️ve seen a 9060 with madVR and it looks quite nice. Excellent color and sharpness and motion. Just the typical ~1000:1 contrast like all the 4K DLPs is the main downside.

Also essentially no rainbow effect which is nice.

Once calibrated (white balanced) in Vivid the 9060 is only like 1700-1800 lumens though. Bright but nothing real special.
It should have close to five times the contrast of his 970 for darker scenes; the dynamic contrast of the 9060 can get to around 4600:1 give or take. Plus it will have a similar lens and hardly any RBE, especially compared to the wheel-based 970. By the way, did @ProCentral Rob ever comment since his last post here concerning existence or non-existence of a color wheel?
I would think also the colors will be much better, since lk970 can do 93% rec709 vs 98-99% dci-p3 , RBE is no issue for me since i never even saw it on the Lk.

Aztar since u saw many projectors, ive seen u commented on how stunning the colors are in this projector, how does it compare to ur NX7 for colors only.

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post #539 of 653 Old 01-03-2020, 07:13 AM
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Does the HT9060 SmartEco dimming really work only in full black screen? I thought @Aztar35 and maybe others said that it worked really well in darker screens and makes the black floor look a bit more convincing?

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I guess I am not sure why I thought it was only on fade to black.

When I viewed the 9060 i don't really remember it dimming much at all in the dark scenes that I like to use, but maybe I just need different scenes.

https://www.soundandvision.com/image...q.contrast.jpg

At least according to this the dynamic is 3770:1 and the dimming happens somewhere between 1% ADL which is at 800:1 and 1 pixel which is at 3770:1 which make sense.
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post #540 of 653 Old 01-03-2020, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I guess I am not sure why I thought it was only on fade to black.

When I viewed the 9060 i don't really remember it dimming much at all in the dark scenes that I like to use, but maybe I just need different scenes.

https://www.soundandvision.com/image...q.contrast.jpg

At least according to this the dynamic is 3770:1 and the dimming happens somewhere between 1% ADL which is at 800:1 and 1 pixel which is at 3770:1 which make sense.
That is a big jump.
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