BenQ HT9060 / x12000h Owners Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #631 of 647 Old 01-11-2020, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Chi Lin:
Sim2 Mico(40, 50, 60, m150, m120)
TrueVue Vango
Wolf Cinema DCL-200FD

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...2Mico_Test.htm

Delta:
Vivitek H9080/H9090
Digital Projection Cine LED & LED
1000
Runco Q650i, Q750i D73d

http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/Viv...20Preview2.htm
Oh OK, didn't realise we were talking about ~10 year old machines.
All these units have failed to do much at all in the market, despite the seemingly obvious benefits of LED even over blue laser + phosphor. I really want this to be a tech that can provide competition in the market - there is a lot to like about solid state LED in theory. What do you think it is that constantly holds it back?
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post #632 of 647 Old 01-11-2020, 05:48 PM
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Oh OK, didn't realise we were talking about ~10 year old machines.
All these units have failed to do much at all in the market, despite the seemingly obvious benefits of LED even over blue laser + phosphor. I really want this to be a tech that can provide competition in the market - there is a lot to like about solid state LED in theory. What do you think it is that constantly holds it back?
Just in general Id think light output and the corresponding black level. While lasers are definitely going to help with light output, black levels are going to be even higher until we get some type of upgraded modulation like the eclipse in lower price brackets. There also seems to be a big gap between the portables and something like the benq I think due to the optics necessary to prevent misconvergence/chromatic abberations due to the narrower band output of the leds. And I think sacrificing contrast for resolution, as these .95 dmds were already very sharp and detailed.

What rgb solid state does with a dmd in terms of video rendering though is astounding. The only flaw would be black level, its perfect looking aside from that. Perfect mtf with no overshooting, perfect motion with no blur, perfect color rendering and color depth, excellent native gamut. The benefits over a color wheel are numerous and it really improves the performance of dmds.

Specifically with these older units
-Where the ht9060 can do 1400(?) lumens the sim2 mico was 500-600.
-The optics needed for the .95 dmd and especially for the narrower band output of the leds(chromatic abberation). The Delta units show quite a bit of CA, the chi lin less, and the barco/pd units(FL32 etc) were mostly free of it due to the very high quality minolta konica lens.
-The cooling thats needed wasnt quite so common in projection I think like it is now with higher powered leds and lasers, i.e. water cooling, large heatsinks with heatpipes.
-These units were a bit before their time in terms of gamut. But madvr like with everything enables the projector to show uhd material, high quality downscaling, 3d luts, and tone mapping. Specifically the Chi Lin units make for a very uhd image. 600 lumens(26fl on a 100" 1.3 gain screen) at the native gamut, a 2.5k:1 native contrast, 12.5k dynamic contrast(measured 7-8k at 1% adl) with excellent functionality(gamma corrected and water cooled leds), 900 ansi contrast(very little haloing), red hits the bt2020 coordinates and green is at about 0.73 I think. The high pixel fill and lens, along with the high mtf and color rendering make for a very sharp, detailed, natural, and dimensional image. Color performance is really excellent and really improves perceived contrast, low level color detail, motion accuracy(no bright ghosting due to overshoots in fast motion in dark scenes), etc.
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post #633 of 647 Old 01-11-2020, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
The 9060 has a vivid mode which according to all reviews has the native / widest gamut, so why not use that mode to do a dci-p3 3dlut and use it with external tone maping solution.
Whats the difference between vivid mode and dci-p3 color profile, some reviews even siad that vivid mode has higher gamut than dci-p3 profile in hdr mode.
Can anyone who has one post some CIE diagrams, 5 mins work with a meter? Seems fairly telling that there don't seem to be any actual owners in here any more...(!)
Yes seems really odd no one is answering that question, it would really take 5min

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post #634 of 647 Old 01-11-2020, 06:03 PM
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I'd add improved native contrast but I don't know if that's possible.

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Yes, I was surprised that this was not the first suggestion. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
It was on the list to add an iris to get better contrast, not native though but we all know thats not doable right now with the current chip in use , so realistically an iris would be doable.
Also a powered lens would be a great addition.
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post #635 of 647 Old 01-11-2020, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Whats the difference between vivid mode and dci-p3 color profile, some reviews even siad that vivid mode has higher gamut than dci-p3 profile in hdr mode.
I tried Vivid and the colors looked mismatched but I never did extensive testing with Vivid mode. Perhaps the proper calibration would do the trick.

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Is this an issue with the xpr chip? I have some of the chi lin / delta units and I believe they run 23p material at 48hz and a color frequency of 900hz per led. Very good motion performance, matched cadence, sharp. Ive been using madvrs frame blending at 60hz and supersampling(1.0crispen/enhance) for years with other projectors(w1070/jvc rs45) and these projectors(Vivitek h9090/runco q750i/sim2 mico40) fed 23p are very comfortable to watch.
Maybe. Going by memory, motion on the Vivitek H9090 looked more natural.

Put it this way, when I switched from watching the BenQ HT9060 to the Runco LS-5, the motion on the Runco looked so smooth that it had the look of mild soap opera effect.
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post #636 of 647 Old 01-11-2020, 07:26 PM
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Thank you for the detailed reply.
I m not trying to improve on my LK970, it is just that i got a really good deal to sell it for the same price i bought it 14/15 months ago, and thought the 9060 will hold its value better and be easier to sell later on.
I m waiting a year to see whats next, if nothing new is on the horizon i will buy a JVC Z1 and sell everything i have.
I do game a lot and that is why i dont want to just stay with my JVC rs440 which is stunning for movies but pretty bad for gaming.
I m leaning towards just keeping my LK and hope i can sell it in a year.
How's the 9060 for gaming?

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post #637 of 647 Old 01-11-2020, 07:32 PM
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How's the 9060 for gaming?
I never tried it for gaming. If lag time is good, I would think this would make a great second projector for you.
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post #638 of 647 Old 01-11-2020, 08:44 PM
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Maybe. Going by memory, motion on the Vivitek H9090 looked more natural.

Put it this way, when I switched from watching the BenQ HT9060 to the Runco LS-5, the motion on the Runco looked so smooth that it had the look of mild soap opera effect.
I see, I've been hesitant towards any pixel shifting primarily due to an effect on motion xD Id figured it would be handled better with dlp due to the rate of the switching compared to liquid crystal. I remember Sage mentioned that the ht5550/3550 properly displayed 23p at 48hz, if the ht9060 does as well maybe then the differences youre seeing are just due to the shifting. I agree about the Runco(the q750i) looking almost soapy motion is displayed so well, even more so with the led models due to the lack of a color wheel.
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post #639 of 647 Old 01-12-2020, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Whats the difference between vivid mode and dci-p3 color profile, some reviews even siad that vivid mode has higher gamut than dci-p3 profile in hdr mode.
I tried Vivid and the colors looked mismatched but I never did extensive testing with Vivid mode. Perhaps the proper calibration would do the trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Is this an issue with the xpr chip? I have some of the chi lin / delta units and I believe they run 23p material at 48hz and a color frequency of 900hz per led. Very good motion performance, matched cadence, sharp. Ive been using madvrs frame blending at 60hz and supersampling(1.0crispen/enhance) for years with other projectors(w1070/jvc rs45) and these projectors(Vivitek h9090/runco q750i/sim2 mico40) fed 23p are very comfortable to watch.
Maybe. Going by memory, motion on the Vivitek H9090 looked more natural.

Put it this way, when I switched from watching the BenQ HT9060 to the Runco LS-5, the motion on the Runco looked so smooth that it had the look of mild soap opera effect.
A 3dlut will easily fix that, if vivid mode cover 100% dci-p3 or very close to that, a 3dlut will allign all the colors properly and it would be used with madvr tone maping to dci-p3.

JVC DLA X590/RS440 / BenQ LK970
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post #640 of 647 Old 01-12-2020, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Thank you for the detailed reply.
I m not trying to improve on my LK970, it is just that i got a really good deal to sell it for the same price i bought it 14/15 months ago, and thought the 9060 will hold its value better and be easier to sell later on.
I m waiting a year to see whats next, if nothing new is on the horizon i will buy a JVC Z1 and sell everything i have.
I do game a lot and that is why i dont want to just stay with my JVC rs440 which is stunning for movies but pretty bad for gaming.
I m leaning towards just keeping my LK and hope i can sell it in a year.
How's the 9060 for gaming?
Mark i just kept my LK970 , coudnt risk changing to the 9060 without seeing it.
The Lk970 is brilliant for gaming, its so bright and sharp it just pops, yes it doesnt have fade to black u like , but other than that its awsome, i m playing metro exodus now on it, i tried it on my Oled to see the difference and its black level is elevated i couldnt take advantage of Oled contrast, if i crush everything i can make it inky black but i cant see anything that way lol.
Most games are made with elevated black and cater for IPS monitors which have 700-800:1 contrast.
U should just get an Lk970 and game on it as a second projector, u wont regret it, even when i drop it to eco mode i feel the loss of brightness and go back to normal, i guess i like bright picture for gaming.

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post #641 of 647 Old 01-12-2020, 06:17 AM
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Mark i just kept my LK970 , coudnt risk changing to the 9060 without seeing it.
The Lk970 is brilliant for gaming, its so bright and sharp it just pops, yes it doesnt have fade to black u like , but other than that its awsome, i m playing metro exodus now on it, i tried it on my Oled to see the difference and its black level is elevated i couldnt take advantage of Oled contrast, if i crush everything i can make it inky black but i cant see anything that way lol.
Most games are made with elevated black and cater for IPS monitors which have 700-800:1 contrast.
U should just get an Lk970 and game on it as a second projector, u wont regret it, even when i drop it to eco mode i feel the loss of brightness and go back to normal, i guess i like bright picture for gaming.
How does your LK970 look showing desktop text at 3840x2160 at 100% DPI (no other DPI scaling)? The one I had here was super blurry until we got to 150%. I find this confusing as other people have shown very sharp quick brown fox patterns on the LK970 and that seems like it would be similar to desktop text at 100% DPI.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #642 of 647 Old 01-12-2020, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Mark i just kept my LK970 , coudnt risk changing to the 9060 without seeing it.
The Lk970 is brilliant for gaming, its so bright and sharp it just pops, yes it doesnt have fade to black u like , but other than that its awsome, i m playing metro exodus now on it, i tried it on my Oled to see the difference and its black level is elevated i couldnt take advantage of Oled contrast, if i crush everything i can make it inky black but i cant see anything that way lol.
Most games are made with elevated black and cater for IPS monitors which have 700-800:1 contrast.
U should just get an Lk970 and game on it as a second projector, u wont regret it, even when i drop it to eco mode i feel the loss of brightness and go back to normal, i guess i like bright picture for gaming.
How does your LK970 look showing desktop text at 3840x2160 at 100% DPI (no other DPI scaling)? The one I had here was super blurry until we got to 150%. I find this confusing as other people have shown very sharp quick brown fox patterns on the LK970 and that seems like it would be similar to desktop text at 100% DPI.
At 100% dpi its not as sharp but on my 135inch 16:9 screen its extreemly small anyway even sitting close, i use 150% on desktop, and in games text is super sharp, if u want i can test WoW to see if players names are clear and readable at 4k , other then WoW most games i play scale up the text .

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post #643 of 647 Old 01-12-2020, 07:44 PM
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Has everyone abandon Benq HT9060 and move on to something else? What's the primary move to another projector? I almost pull the trigger if the price is right but I can't get any company quote me below USD 4k.
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post #644 of 647 Old 01-13-2020, 08:20 AM
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Has everyone abandon Benq HT9060 and move on to something else? What's the primary move to another projector? I almost pull the trigger if the price is right but I can't get any company quote me below USD ?k.
Why would you expect anybody to sell you a projector way below cost?
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post #645 of 647 Old 01-14-2020, 12:35 PM
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Has everyone abandon Benq HT9060 and move on to something else? What's the primary move to another projector? I almost pull the trigger if the price is right but I can't get any company quote me below USD 4k.
Love my HT9060.
Your best bet would be to try and contact Benq direct to find a refurbished unit.
Most of the time they are returns from after trade show or conference.
Stick to the business side, not the home theatre side.
Good luck!
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post #646 of 647 Old 01-14-2020, 09:13 PM
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Why would you expect anybody to sell you a projector way below cost?
Cause I pm someone on the forum and mention it's possible to get it below USD 4k. Personally I don't think the projector worth more than USD 5k based on the limitation and tweaks need to be perform. If you don't use MadVR, it's hard to squeeze every ounce of performance out from this projector.
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Originally Posted by rjyap View Post
Cause I pm someone on the forum and mention it's possible to get it below USD 4k. Personally I don't think the projector worth more than USD 5k based on the limitation and tweaks need to be perform. If you don't use MadVR, it's hard to squeeze every ounce of performance out from this projector.
If talking A-stock and new, that is below dealer cost.
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