The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 1814 Old 04-26-2019, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Here is the X9500 CMD Off vs ON. Clearly better Off.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/134692

Here is the 9900, same deal.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/134693

One has artefacts and one goes straight up soft. But you would think they are more or less the same unless you photograph it.

Of course, these are last years models, so if somebody could please take the same shots on this years models that will be empirical data and not subjective.
I just have 100 dollar camera, but I'll try anyway, having Nigel doing it would be best.
With that said, mousing back and forth, there is huge difference that's for sure, but honestly I think I would easily be able to see the differences in those screen shots at 1 foot away with my glasses on if I would be able to do the same comparison with the X9500 and 9900.
The same goes for the native 4K's, turning on CMD doesn't blur or make the image that fuzzy, it's just nowhere near what your screen shots are.

Have to wait and see.
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post #872 of 1814 Old 04-26-2019, 03:37 PM
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I just have 100 dollar camera, but I'll try anyway, having Nigel doing it would be best.
With that said, mousing back and forth, there is huge difference that's for sure, but honestly I think I would easily be able to see the differences in those screen shots at 1 foot away with my glasses on if I would be able to do the same comparison with the X9500 and 9900.
The same goes for the native 4K's, turning on CMD doesn't blur or make the image that fuzzy, it's just nowhere near what your screen shots are.

Have to wait and see.
You would be surprised... a couple seconds is enough time for your brain to forget the smallest of details. You just gotta trust me on that... Those images are VERY close up too. Throw up the QBF pattern again and you will realise how close up they are.

The real world difference may not be as bad as either, but it may not be perfect either, I think its worth knowing what the difference is, if any. Then you can decide if you really wanna use CMD... But to say there is no difference is not correct unless you can prove it with photos, which is why I asked Nigel to show us on his end.

Woofer is going to do the same on his Z1 over there, just had a chat to him.

Low Latency will probably also have a difference.

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post #873 of 1814 Old 04-26-2019, 04:02 PM
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That's why I don't even bother going into showrooms to look at projectors anymore, there is no real point to it.
Sometimes you find 2 projectors in the same room (or even 3), but usually you are limited to 1 and trying to remember, plus the room affects the image.

I see everyone always saying 'go see the projector', it's almost a useless endeavor unless you are in someone's batcave room and by yourself and left to test.
Otherwise, what are you going to see, 90% of what you see will be calibration / setup / room / source / whatever, and have nothing to do with the projector.

It takes time to equalize for a comparison, it's not easy.

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post #874 of 1814 Old 04-26-2019, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That's why I don't even bother going into showrooms to look at projectors anymore, there is no real point to it.
Sometimes you find 2 projectors in the same room (or even 3), but usually you are limited to 1 and trying to remember, plus the room affects the image.

I see everyone always saying 'go see the projector', it's almost a useless endeavor unless you are in someone's batcave room and by yourself and left to test.
Otherwise, what are you going to see, 90% of what you see will be calibration / setup / room / source / whatever, and have nothing to do with the projector.

It takes time to equalize for a comparison, it's not easy.
True, but at least it can give you a ball park idea of the projectors capabilities and show defects if any exist. For instance :RBE effect for DLP projectors, poor black level of DLP compared to LCoS, etc.

But yeah, unless you have side by side comparison with calibrated projectors in a bat cave, it is hard to really make any kind of accurate comparison.
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post #875 of 1814 Old 04-26-2019, 07:44 PM
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True, but at least it can give you a ball park idea of the projectors capabilities and show defects if any exist. For instance :RBE effect for DLP projectors, poor black level of DLP compared to LCoS, etc.

But yeah, unless you have side by side comparison with calibrated projectors in a bat cave, it is hard to really make any kind of accurate comparison.
I knew the minute I first saw the SIM2 Lumis Host - in a hotel room at CES if I recall correctly, that it far exceeded any projector I'd ever owned, in picture quality ( and price ). And one look at the picture the $ 80K single chip laser DLP Barco projector threw with the opening of John Wick 2 at Cedia a couple of years ago, and I knew I hated it. Really bad contrast, and endless rainbows.

I went back for a 2nd look at the Lumis, and bought one. It looked even better in my room. So you can get a good idea what they look like. Sometimes.
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post #876 of 1814 Old 04-26-2019, 10:20 PM
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Does anyone have the newest version of the Sony Projector Calibration Pro software available?

Thanks
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post #877 of 1814 Old 04-26-2019, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I knew the minute I first saw the SIM2 Lumis Host - in a hotel room at CES if I recall correctly, that it far exceeded any projector I'd ever owned, in picture quality ( and price ). And one look at the picture the $ 80K single chip laser DLP Barco projector threw with the opening of John Wick 2 at Cedia a couple of years ago, and I knew I hated it. Really bad contrast, and endless rainbows.

I went back for a 2nd look at the Lumis, and bought one. It looked even better in my room. So you can get a good idea what they look like. Sometimes.
Those are extreme examples, try going to figure out if buying the NX 7 over the NX 5 is worth it.
Most showrooms don't have DLP's. I think I've seen one in all the places I've been too, and it was in the entry room just to simulate conference room on a giant 250" screen.
It was also rainbow city. I don't remember which model it was, but some NEC I believe.

When I went, it was 70% Sony, 20% JVC, and 10% other things (like Epson). Hardly ever remember a DLP at a showroom, but I never went to any of the tradeshows.
Actually I did go to one local Home Theater tradeshow in 2005, but so long ago I barely remember it.

For sub-$2k DLP's, just buy them and return it if you don't like it.
IMO, the newer super expensive DLP's (until you get over $10k) are not worth the difference between the cheap DLP's.
Benq is trying to add a few features and set a PJ price 5x higher, well sometimes the lens is better I suppose, marginally.
The way the DLP market is right now makes zero sense.

Good luck.

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Last edited by coderguy; 04-26-2019 at 10:57 PM.
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post #878 of 1814 Old 04-26-2019, 10:48 PM
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I'm not saying I expect DLP contrast to be exceptional, but I expect an $8,000 DLP projector to have a bit higher contrast than a $500 projector.
That's ridiculous.

The consumers are letting them get away with it, I wouldn't buy any DLP like that until they at least make some effort.
They aren't even trying to improve the contrast.

I know they'll lose lumens with an adjustable fixed aperture, but then make that a separate home theater model or something.
They already make like 3 models of almost the same thing and barely change anything on them.

If they can get the Native Contrast back up to 2000:1 to 2500:1 at least, and make better DI, would be a start.

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post #879 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 12:41 AM
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Take a photo on a tripod.

I would have said the same until I studied the images.
You are CORRECT...
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post #880 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 12:50 AM
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@Javs Come on....i am waiting for a......... "TOLD YOU SO"
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post #881 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 12:58 AM
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@Javs Come on....i am waiting for a......... "TOLD YOU SO"
CMD off looks outstanding...

Told ya so
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post #882 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 01:05 AM
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Even the colour is more saturated with CMD off....

I think you should run CMD off

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post #883 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 02:42 AM - Thread Starter
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post #884 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 02:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
You are CORRECT...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
CMD off looks outstanding...

Told ya so
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Even the colour is more saturated with CMD off....

I think you should run CMD off
But that's simply due to the fact that CMD does not support 4:4:4 chroma subsampling, so when you turn CMD on it automatically downconverts and outputs as 4:2:2

So what we are seeing here is the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 chroma subsampling settings with the QBF test pattern. This is also why you are getting those alternating THICK and THIN lines with some of the colours by the way

Hence, unless you are viewing content that's 4:4:4 you should not see any difference with actual video content when CMD is turned ON as opposed to OFF

Try this to confirm... Set your source device to output as 4:2:2... Then output the QBF test pattern... And toggle between CMD ON and CMD OFF... I'm willing to bet that now you won't see any difference

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post #885 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 03:21 AM
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And for those who are interested: SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS | Review & Discussions

Finally! The Sim2 ADL contrast curve looks awesome to me!
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post #886 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 04:30 AM
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But that's simply due to the fact that CMD does not support 4:4:4 chroma subsampling, so when you turn CMD on it automatically downconverts and outputs as 4:2:2



So what we are seeing here is the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 chroma subsampling settings with the QBF test pattern. This is also why you are getting those alternating THICK and THIN lines with some of the colours by the way



Hence, unless you are viewing content that's 4:4:4 you should not see any difference with actual video content when CMD is turned ON as opposed to OFF



Try this to confirm... Set your source device to output as 4:2:2... Then output the QBF test pattern... And toggle between CMD ON and CMD OFF... I'm willing to bet that now you won't see any difference



Still a limitation of CMD at the end of the day ...

It fails the pattern as a result. And there is plenty of usage scenarios where you want 4:4:4 intact.

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post #887 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Still a limitation of CMD at the end of the day ...

It fails the pattern as a result. And there is plenty of usage scenarios where you want 4:4:4 intact.
Yes, I agree that CMD supporting a maximum of 4:2:2 chroma subsampling is a limitation and that there are certain instances wherein you want 4:4:4 intact.

*HOWEVER* almost all consumer HDR content is encoded as 4:2:0, so unless you are upscaling to 4:4:4, using CMD will not in fact negatively affect the video performance in any regard whatsoever

There is gaming where you would want 4:4:4 to be intact, but with gaming most folks would not choose to have CMD enabled anyway because it significantly increases input lag

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post #888 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 07:45 AM
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CMD off looks outstanding...

Told ya so
Yes we did.
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post #889 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes, I agree that CMD supporting a maximum of 4:2:2 chroma subsampling is a limitation and that there are certain instances wherein you want 4:4:4 intact.

*HOWEVER* almost all consumer HDR content is encoded as 4:2:0, so unless you are upscaling to 4:4:4, using CMD will not in fact negatively affect the video performance in any regard whatsoever

There is gaming where you would want 4:4:4 to be intact, but with gaming most folks would not choose to have CMD enabled anyway because it significantly increases input lag

This all started when I said I would not expect the QBF pattern to look as good with CMD on. We were not talking about any actual content difference, just the QBF test pattern.
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post #890 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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This all started when I said I would not expect the QBF pattern to look as good with CMD on. We were not talking about any actual content difference, just the QBF test pattern.
Ah right, OK then. In which case, yes you are quite right

And the reason WHY the QBF pattern does not look as good with CMD on versus off is because the QBF test pattern is 4:4:4 chroma subsampling, which CMD does not support; so when you turn CMD on it downconverts to 4:2:2 reducing the performance of the QBF test pattern accordingly.


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post #891 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 09:06 AM
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Just as information on the RS4500 and the internal fan noise when ran on Mid or High-Laser.

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Which partly drove my decision on which way to leap. Heck, JVC here can’t even be bothered to update their website! http://au.jvc.com/projectors/home_cinema/
How you liking the Sony, they do make a great unit
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Nice racks Terry, nice and clean.
Cleveland Plasma,

It all looks great buddy after all the work was completed.
They did an Awesome job on all aspects of it and the new added Classe' amp rack is really super-nice.
The optional (Roller Casters) as it turned out were a real asset.















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post #893 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 10:01 AM
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Yes, I agree that CMD supporting a maximum of 4:2:2 chroma subsampling is a limitation and that there are certain instances wherein you want 4:4:4 intact.

*HOWEVER* almost all consumer HDR content is encoded as 4:2:0, so unless you are upscaling to 4:4:4, using CMD will not in fact negatively affect the video performance in any regard whatsoever

There is gaming where you would want 4:4:4 to be intact, but with gaming most folks would not choose to have CMD enabled anyway because it significantly increases input lag

So for us practical real-world dudes, what is the implication of all this for setting up a source, such as a Panasonic 820 player? I like to have CMD on "low" when I watch a movie on Blu-ray. So does this mean I should set my 820 to "4K/60p(4:2:0)" instead of "4K/60p(4:4:4)"?
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post #894 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 10:13 AM
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So for us practical real-world dudes, what is the implication of all this for setting up a source, such as a Panasonic 820 player? I like to have CMD on "low" when I watch a movie on Blu-ray. So does this mean I should set my 820 to "4K/60p(4:2:0)" instead of "4K/60p(4:4:4)"?
If you get colour banding on one, then try the other.
If you're gaming at 4K/60p (4:4:4) turn of CMD off and set it at 4:4:4.
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes, I agree that CMD supporting a maximum of 4:2:2 chroma subsampling is a limitation and that there are certain instances wherein you want 4:4:4 intact.

*HOWEVER* almost all consumer HDR content is encoded as 4:2:0, so unless you are upscaling to 4:4:4, using CMD will not in fact negatively affect the video performance in any regard whatsoever

There is gaming where you would want 4:4:4 to be intact, but with gaming most folks would not choose to have CMD enabled anyway because it significantly increases input lag

This all started when I said I would not expect the QBF pattern to look as good with CMD on. We were not talking about any actual content difference, just the QBF test pattern.
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post #896 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
But that's simply due to the fact that CMD does not support 4:4:4 chroma subsampling, so when you turn CMD on it automatically downconverts and outputs as 4:2:2

So what we are seeing here is the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 chroma subsampling settings with the QBF test pattern. This is also why you are getting those alternating THICK and THIN lines with some of the colours by the way

Hence, unless you are viewing content that's 4:4:4 you should not see any difference with actual video content when CMD is turned ON as opposed to OFF

Try this to confirm... Set your source device to output as 4:2:2... Then output the QBF test pattern... And toggle between CMD ON and CMD OFF... I'm willing to bet that now you won't see any difference

I'm glad Woofer posted some comparison photos, mine turned out OK, but not as sharp.
I experienced the same thing with the colour space, although at first I didn't see a difference at all, but after reading things here I realize now that I forgot that I had not set the HTPC to 4:4:4, hence why I was getting the thin and thick lines and not seeing any difference between CMD, off or on.
I did reset my convergence though so things look even better now !
I'm looking forward to watching "Lucy" for the second time with my shiny new JVC, it's just light years ahead in sharpness and colour saturation, and now with HDR ! (or as good as HDR can get on a projector with out spending 1/2 million dollars).

I shallow continue to wallow in my SOE, or upscaled frame rate conversion as it should be described as, IMO.

Anyone here that uses frame interpolation on "high" (I know you're out there).
Watch the opening scene of the panning sand dunes on "X-Men apocalypse", if I remember correctly my 300es made an absolute mess of this, while the JVC dealt with it, with it ease !
Sony hasn't updated their FI engine at all, so I'm sure that odd scene is still going to be mess on a Sony.
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Where it should be noted that this is with respect to HDR VIDEO PERFORMANCE specifically.

And for those who are interested: SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS | Review & Discussions

Ths @ARROW-AV for your measurments ! I guess the projectors were calibrated ?
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Ah right, OK then. In which case, yes you are quite right



And the reason WHY the QBF pattern does not look as good with CMD on versus off is because the QBF test pattern is 4:4:4 chroma subsampling, which CMD does not support; so when you turn CMD on it downconverts to 4:2:2 reducing the performance of the QBF test pattern accordingly.



My projector LIVES in 4:4:4 though so it's important to me.

The whole of desktop environment, any photos you look at in that environment...

I think it's narrow to say it doesn't affect any real content
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post #899 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
My projector LIVES in 4:4:4 though so it's important to me.

The whole of desktop environment, any photos you look at in that environment...

I think it's narrow to say it doesn't affect any real content
I never said it doesn't affect any real content

I specifically made a point of stating "unless you are upscaling to 4:4:4"

You are operating a HTPC, with 4:4:4 computer graphics inlcuding digital photos, plus video content as 4:4:4 via MadVR. So there you go; you would indeed be affected. But statistically you in the minority.

The average Joe who is watching video content off a disc via their Blu-Ray Player etc. will probably be operating video as per how it is encoded, namely 4:2:0, meaning that using CMD won't make any difference. And I'd be willing to bet that unless you use something like MadVR to upscale 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 you won't see any difference with the likes of Panasonic Blu-Ray players etc. so again I don't think you would be losing out on anything. But with MadVR, yes you would.

So I come back to the fact that if you are operating 4:4:4 content then using CMD will affect the image, but if you are not, wherein all consumer video content is encoded as 4:2:0, then it won't

That said, I agree the this is not ideal and is a limitation of CMD, but I think it is important to make clear when this really becomes an issue and when it is not.


Last edited by ARROW-AV; 04-27-2019 at 02:12 PM.
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post #900 of 1814 Old 04-27-2019, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I never said it doesn't affect any real content



I specifically made a point of stating "unless you are upscaling to 4:4:4"



You are operating a HTPC, with 4:4:4 computer graphics inlcuding digital photos, plus video content as 4:4:4 via MadVR. So there you go; you would indeed be affected. But statistically you in the minority.



The average Joe who is watching video content off a disc via their Blu-Ray Player etc. will probably be operating video as per how it is encoded, namely 4:2:0, meaning that using CMD won't make any difference. And I'd be willing to bet that unless you use something like MadVR to upscale 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 you won't see any difference with the likes of Panasonic Blu-Ray players etc. so again I don't think you would be losing out on anything. But with MadVR, yes you would.



So I come back to the fact that if you are operating 4:4:4 content then using CMD will affect the image, but if you are not, wherein all consumer video content is encoded as 4:2:0, then it won't



That said, I agree the this is not ideal and is a limitation of CMD, but I think it is important to make clear when this really becomes an issue and when it is not.



I don't think the average Joe would own a 4k JVC...

Most all players upsample chroma to 4:4:4 now anyway.

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