The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #901 of 2894 Old 04-27-2019, 04:14 PM
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@ARROW-AV the JVC figure appears to be dynamic? or have they done some magic to get it to 200% of the claimed native contrast spec.

EDIT: Appears all except for the Christie are dynamic!

Marketing 101

Can the RS3000 get it's claimed 100,000:1 native under some circumstances?
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post #902 of 2894 Old 04-27-2019, 04:15 PM
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How you liking the Sony, they do make a great unit
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post #903 of 2894 Old 04-27-2019, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
@ARROW-AV the JVC figure appears to be dynamic? or have they done some magic to get it to 200% of the claimed native contrast spec.

EDIT: Appears all except for the Christie are dynamic!

Marketing 101

Can the RS3000 get it's claimed 100,000:1 native under some circumstances?
On the JVC those measurements are with manual iris fully open. So this is what you would expect for HDR if using iris fully open. Your contrast for SDR would be quite a bit higher. Several people have already shown that the JVC's do get to their claimed native contrast.
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post #904 of 2894 Old 04-27-2019, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
On the JVC those measurements are with manual iris fully open. So this is what you would expect for HDR if using iris fully open. Your contrast for SDR would be quite a bit higher. Several people have already shown that the JVC's do get to their claimed native contrast.
I remember DJDee got improved no/off contrast after a firmware update, which was strange.

Still like to see the single lit pixel on/off as Arrow-AV was going to do, to eliminate and "Jiggery-Pokeary" (his words) if any.....

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post #905 of 2894 Old 04-27-2019, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Ah right, OK then. In which case, yes you are quite right

And the reason WHY the QBF pattern does not look as good with CMD on versus off is because the QBF test pattern is 4:4:4 chroma subsampling, which CMD does not support; so when you turn CMD on it downconverts to 4:2:2 reducing the performance of the QBF test pattern accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
My projector LIVES in 4:4:4 though so it's important to me.

The whole of desktop environment, any photos you look at in that environment...

I think it's narrow to say it doesn't affect any real content


My PC is set to 4k / 60 / RGB 8 bit. This is how I view the QBF pattern. How does this impact all the chroma subsampling?

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post #906 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 12:11 AM
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My PC is set to 4k / 60 / RGB 8 bit. This is how I view the QBF pattern. How does this impact all the chroma subsampling?
RGB is already 4:4:4 output.
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post #907 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
RGB is already 4:4:4 output.
Ive just picked up this whole story today that CMD on the NX series converts everything to 422 which I believe adds an artifact unless the input is set to 422, sorry if I have this wrong...

I use madvr with my NX9 and output from the PC in RGB 8bit which is what madshi recommends best for madvr, if I was using CMD with RGB 8bit, does it add the artifact or not?

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post #908 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Ive just picked up this whole story today that CD on the NX series converts everything to 422 which I believe adds an artifact unless the input is set to 422, sorry if I have this wrong...

I use madvr with my NX9 and output from the PC in RGB 8bit which is that madshi recommends best for madvr, if I was using CMD with RGB 8bit, does it add the artifact or not?
Excellent question...
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post #909 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Ive just picked up this whole story today that CMD on the NX series converts everything to 422 which I believe adds an artifact unless the input is set to 422, sorry if I have this wrong...

I use madvr with my NX9 and output from the PC in RGB 8bit which is what madshi recommends best for madvr, if I was using CMD with RGB 8bit, does it add the artifact or not?
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Excellent question...
I am not sure the JVC is TRULY downconverting it to 4:2:2 because it it were, that pattern in the red and blue colour bar versions would be completely unreadable. I just tested this now on my HDTV putting it into true 4:2:2 mode and the QBF pattern is a lot worse. So thats not what is happening here completely.

I think the better explanation is as simple as this.

If you use CMD on the JVC's you will not get the true FULL benefit of any content at 4:4:4 chroma.

Something has to give somewhere, yeah the difference is minute and not super visible from a few feet away arguably, but you all spend a lot of $$$ to get that last few percent performance, and from where I am sitting, CMD is not an acceptable compromise in resolution (if the details are comprised of coloured pixels) to use on the 9500 or 9900 and definitely not on Woofers Z1..

I also still have a hunch you could find content at 4:2:2 where this would also still affect things, but I cant be bothered to look into it. Nigel seems to be of the strong opinion that 4:2:2 wont be affected, so perhaps he could find some content and prove it. the very fact that the QBF pattern is 'broken' in essence when using CMD On vs Off is enough for me.

Also, regarding my desktop PC, and my desktop environment, I can tell in about 1 second from any view distance that I am in 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4 its a very clear difference and loss of overall saturation in the icons etc, which woofers images clearly showed. His CMD off images shows MUCH more saturated Red, Green and Blue letters vs CMD On. I for one would prefer to have the power of full chroma up-sampling and gaining that tiny bit of added saturation in the image.

I am a person who has disdain for CMD in all forms anyway since I believe you should view the content in the frame rate the director intended rather than essentially watching 66% fake interpolated frames and only 33% frames which were actually filmed... But that's your prerogative. So its definitely a tough decision for those who like CMD or feel they need it...

At the end of the day the SHOULD just make a CMD that works in 4:4:4, how about that? I would not be glossing over it, scream it to the clouds! Make JVC fix it in the next models.
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post #910 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 01:04 AM
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I do use CMD on low with my NX9, with it off I see horrible judder as I did on every other past JVC when CMD is off.

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post #911 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
I do use CMD on low with my NX9, with it off I see horrible judder as I did on every other past JVC when CMD is off.
Clearly the judder is more offensive to you, so keep CMD on...
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post #912 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 01:32 AM
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Clearly the judder is more offensive to you, so keep CMD on...
I wish JVC would include BFI for those that wanted it, I used to love it when projectors had it. We have the lumens today for BFI to work again....
https://www.testufo.com/

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post #913 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I am not sure the JVC is TRULY downconverting it to 4:2:2 because it it were, that pattern in the red and blue colour bar versions would be completely unreadable. I just tested this now on my HDTV putting it into true 4:2:2 mode and the QBF pattern is a lot worse. So thats not what is happening here completely.

I think the better explanation is as simple as this.

If you use CMD on the JVC's you will not get the true FULL benefit of any content at 4:4:4 chroma.

Something has to give somewhere, yeah the difference is minute and not super visible from a few feet away arguably, but you all spend a lot of $$$ to get that last few percent performance, and from where I am sitting, CMD is not an acceptable compromise in resolution (if the details are comprised of coloured pixels) to use on the 9500 or 9900 and definitely not on Woofers Z1..

I also still have a hunch you could find content at 4:2:2 where this would also still affect things, but I cant be bothered to look into it. Nigel seems to be of the strong opinion that 4:2:2 wont be affected, so perhaps he could find some content and prove it. the very fact that the QBF pattern is 'broken' in essence when using CMD On vs Off is enough for me.

Also, regarding my desktop PC, and my desktop environment, I can tell in about 1 second from any view distance that I am in 4:2:2 and not 4:4:4 its a very clear difference and loss of overall saturation in the icons etc, which woofers images clearly showed. His CMD off images shows MUCH more saturated Red, Green and Blue letters vs CMD On. I for one would prefer to have the power of full chroma up-sampling and gaining that tiny bit of added saturation in the image.

I am a person who has disdain for CMD in all forms anyway since I believe you should view the content in the frame rate the director intended rather than essentially watching 66% fake interpolated frames and only 33% frames which were actually filmed... But that's your prerogative. So its definitely a tough decision for those who like CMD or feel they need it...

At the end of the day the SHOULD just make a CMD that works in 4:4:4, how about that? I would not be glossing over it, scream it to the clouds! Make JVC fix it in the next models.
Firstly, I am not glossing over anything. Secondly I have in fact done precisely that. In fact, I have previously had some pretty lengthy email correspondence with JVC regarding precisely this

And that's despite the fact that most people, like you, won't use CMD because they don't like SOE and/or because you they want to view 'As the Director Intended'. So despite the fact it affects the minority I still fought the corner

The fact of the matter is that according to JVC Europe's head of engineering CMD does not support 4:4:4 and when you turn it on it downconverts to 4:2:2. So perhaps it is doing so better than your HDTV is doing it? Who knows!

I asked whether they would fix it and JVC said no, and that that's how it's always been and it's a limitation of CMD so won't ever be fixed.

So I think it's important to properly confirm to what extent this does or does not affect actual video content as opposed to just the Quick Brown Fox test pattern. I will dig deeper and properly evaluate what's what and post my findings on here later today. So watch this space

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post #914 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 02:38 AM
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Firstly, I am not glossing over anything. Secondly I have in fact done precisely that. In fact, I have previously had some pretty lengthy previous email correspondence with JVC regarding precisely this

And that's despite the fact that most people, like you, won't use CMD either because they don't like SOE, or because like you they want to view 'As the Director Intended'. So despite the fact it affects the minority I still fought the corner

The fact of the matter is that according to JVC Europe's head of engineering CMD does not support 4:4:4 and when you turn it on it downconverts to 4:2:2. So perhaps it is doing so better than your HDTV is doing it? Who knows!

I asked whether they would fix it and JVC said no, and that that's how it's always been and it's a limitation of CMD so won't ever be fixed.

So I think it's important to properly confirm to what extent this does or does not affect actual video content as opposed to just the Quick Brown Fox test pattern. I will dig deeper and properly evaluate what's what and post my findings on here later today. So watch this space

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post #915 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Marketing 101

Can the RS3000 get it's claimed 100,000:1 native under some circumstances?
Actually, yes it can. In 'Torch Mode' with the Lamp Iris closed fully down to -15 setting, wherein the light output is about 200 lumens

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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
@ARROW-AV the JVC figure appears to be dynamic? or have they done some magic to get it to 200% of the claimed native contrast spec.

EDIT: Appears all except for the Christie are dynamic!
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
I remember DJDee got improved no/off contrast after a firmware update, which was strange.

Still like to see the single lit pixel on/off as Arrow-AV was going to do, to eliminate and "Jiggery-Pokeary" (his words) if any.....
To clarify, those are the full range of contrast measurement witrh respect to DYNAMIC CONTRAST set to FULL in all instances, except for the Christie wherein the figures are the NATIVE performance because it does not have nor need Dynamic Contrast.

Consequently, the 0% (ON/OFF) figures ARE the measurements with the Single White Pixel so as to defeat any shutting off of the light engine in response to full field black. Otherwise with the SONY for example the measurement is 'INFINITY' because the laser light engine turns off completely in reaction to a full field black video signal. So, the true ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES with the Dynamic Contrast set to FULL is as listed, not 'INFINITY'.

These are also with respect to HDR performance, meaning that the JVC has its lamp iris set to 0 wide open. SDR might paint a different picture, especially as compared with the SONY

I took these measurements as part of completing my review of the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS.

I will be taking the rest of the measurements today and will post the full set of measurements directly comparing the JVC RS3000/NX9 vs the SONY 995/870ES later today, so watch this space

I won't be doing anything else today but spending some quality time deep diving into a bunch of projectors!


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post #916 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 03:16 AM
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I won't be doing anything else today but spending some quality time deep diving into a bunch of projectors!

I love how obvious your excitement is at being able to do this..
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post #917 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
I remember DJDee got improved no/off contrast after a firmware update, which was strange.

Still like to see the single lit pixel on/off as Arrow-AV was going to do, to eliminate and "Jiggery-Pokeary" (his words) if any.....
I posted measurements a long time ago (not mine) that showed JVC was not playing games with the diming to get higher native.
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post #918 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 06:25 AM
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I posted measurements a long time ago (not mine) that showed JVC was not playing games with the diming to get higher native.
Those numbers are excellent. I recalled JVC's iris is a 10x multiplier of its spec'd native contrast. So these numbers definitely make sense.


P.S. Mike, looking at the chart, it's a little confusing. The heading states RS3000/NX9, but of course it has no laser dimming function, so I'm not sure why the single pixel test. Also, it states full and limited dynamic iris functions. I know my Sony had those; do the new JVCs have those too now?
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post #919 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 06:31 AM
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I will be taking the rest of the measurements today and will post the full set of measurements directly comparing the JVC RS3000/NX9 vs the SONY 995/870ES later today, so watch this space
Great. I'm looking forward to your findings. Thanks.
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post #920 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 07:18 AM
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Where did those number come from showing 746,872:1? That screenshot has a timestamp of 1/11/2019. The firmware versions I saw in Feb/March didn't let iris close down as much as the e-shift models (by a fair margin) I'm not sure how those numbers would be possible. Unless it was an early firmware where it was clamping down much further than it does today.



Arrow's recent RS3000 measurement

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post #921 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Those numbers are excellent. I recalled JVC's iris is a 10x multiplier of its spec'd native contrast. So these numbers definitely make sense.


P.S. Mike, looking at the chart, it's a little confusing. The heading states RS3000/NX9, but of course it has no laser dimming function, so I'm not sure why the single pixel test. Also, it states full and limited dynamic iris functions. I know my Sony had those; do the new JVCs have those too now?
That was just a check to make sure nothing was being done to give a higher number. Chart was set up for Sony and JVC, so one column is the same with JVC.

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post #922 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 07:22 AM
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Where did those number come from showing 746,872:1? That screenshot has a timestamp of 1/11/2019. The firmware versions I saw in Feb/March didn't let iris close down as much as the e-shift models (by a fair margin) I'm not sure how those numbers would be possible. Unless it was an early firmware where it was clamping down much further than it does today.



Arrow's recent RS3000 measurement

Was off of early firmware.
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post #923 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 07:32 AM
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That was just a check to make sure nothing was being done to give a higher number. Chart was set up for Sony and JVC, so one column is the same with JVC.
..still confused. It's saying dynamic limited 746,872 and 742,365. The JVC doesn't have a dynamic limited mode.
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post #924 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 07:36 AM
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Arrow's recent RS3000 measurement
Got it. Thanks.
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post #925 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Those numbers are excellent. I recalled JVC's iris is a 10x multiplier of its spec'd native contrast. So these numbers definitely make sense.
The RS2000 I had was close to Arrow's dynamic #'s using a Minolta T10. I measured the RS600 at the same time (brand new lamp) and it was ~480K:1 which makes sense since the e-shift models close down quite a bit more with 0 IRE than the native models. There was discussion in the owners thread where some folks were suggesting an 'Auto 3' mode that would let it clamp down a bit further which would help make FTB more convincing.
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post #926 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
..still confused. It's saying dynamic limited 746,872 and 742,365. The JVC doesn't have a dynamic limited mode.
I am pretty sure, all that is is a second measurement, regarding the JVC measuring dynamic. If you look you see that they are nearly the same. Slight variance, like you get when taking a second measurement of the same thing. At the time, this was done head to head with a 995. Here is the 995 from that same time.
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post #927 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Where did those number come from showing 746,872:1? That screenshot has a timestamp of 1/11/2019. The firmware versions I saw in Feb/March didn't let iris close down as much as the e-shift models (by a fair margin) I'm not sure how those numbers would be possible. Unless it was an early firmware where it was clamping down much further than it does today.



Arrow's recent RS3000 measurement

Correct that was an early firmware which had major bugs and after the update the numbers dropped considerably, Nigel posted as much.
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post #928 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 02:55 PM
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post #929 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
..still confused. It's saying dynamic limited 746,872 and 742,365. The JVC doesn't have a dynamic limited mode.
In that first table, Dynamic Full = AUTO 1 and Dynamic Limited = AUTO 2

I have a spreadsheet that automatically infills the table but I have to manually edit the headings. I simply forgot to do so with that first table.

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post #930 of 2894 Old 04-28-2019, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Where did those number come from showing 746,872:1? That screenshot has a timestamp of 1/11/2019. The firmware versions I saw in Feb/March didn't let iris close down as much as the e-shift models (by a fair margin) I'm not sure how those numbers would be possible. Unless it was an early firmware where it was clamping down much further than it does today.



Arrow's recent RS3000 measurement

Arrow's initial "defective" projector closed the iris down to that degree. I think initial fw versions did. Now it's too disappointing and doesn't close down enough.
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