The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread - Page 32 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #931 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Arrow's initial "defective" projector closed the iris down to that degree. I think initial fw versions did. Now it's too disappointing and doesn't close down enough.
Look at the difference in 1% ADL contrast performance though...

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post #932 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
In that first table, Dynamic Full = AUTO 1 and Dynamic Limited = AUTO 2

I have a spreadsheet that automatically infills the table but I have to manually edit the headings. I simply forgot to do so with that first table.

That explains it. It had been so long, that I forgot what the difference in the two were. Thanks.
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post #933 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Look at the difference in 1% ADL contrast performance though...

--absolutely nice to see more usable contrast.
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post #934 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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post #935 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
JVC RS3000/NX9 vs SONY 995/870ES | ROUND 1:

INTERSTELLAR 00:53:30 PERFORMANCE


SCREENSHOT COMPARISON:http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/134786




SCORES:

SONY 995ES/870ES = 65

JVC RS3000/NX9 = 90


Interesting, the JVC image looks like more than double the black floor delta you have there... I'm guess you exposed your camera for the black floor, hence, elevated. Because here on my 9500, that starfield is BLACK.

Its funny on scenes like that, for me, I would prefer the black floor the lowest possible rather than so much the ratio between the ship and the starfield. I know that sounds odd, but I would push the DI past the point of gamma manipulation if I could.

I prefer the luminance the Sony is rendering there, which brings me back to the exposure point, was your camera near clipping on that JVC shot? I dont like the blooming. But I also realise that a camera will do that near clipping if the exposure is set a certain way.

What is the score thing? How do you get to 65?

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post #936 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Interesting, the JVC image looks like more than double the black floor delta you have there... I'm guess you exposed your camera for the black floor, hence, elevated. Because here on my 9500, that starfield is BLACK.
Not unsurprising... Your 9500 has significantly higher ON/OFF contrast, so I would fully expect the black level to measure lower and look blacker

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Its funny on scenes like that, for me, I would prefer the black floor the lowest possible rather than so much the ratio between the ship and the starfield. I know that sounds odd, but I would push the DI past the point of gamma manipulation if I could.
I dunno, it looks pretty damn good with the space station nice and bright against a near-black starfield. Firstly, it actually looks like outer space, as opposed to a wash of gray... and it's so contrasty that it looks very 3D

The SONY looks 2D and flat, and it's is VERY apparent that the blacks are lighter wherein it's just a mass of gray... and the space station is really dim. Looks bad IMO, bordering on unwatchable... Whereas the JVC looks really good and the measurements simply confirm matters, namely that the blacks are a lot blacker and the highlights are a LOT brighter, with a considerably higher luminance dynamic range. Can't argue with the measurements

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I prefer the luminance the Sony is rendering there, which brings me back to the exposure point, was your camera near clipping on that JVC shot? I dont like the blooming. But I also realise that a camera will do that near clipping if the exposure is set a certain way.
The space station is slightly clipped in the photo due to the camera, not the projector. I thought it more important to capture the difference in the starfield black levels and contrast. The reason you prefer the SONY space station is because the luminance of the space station is dim as hell, and the whole image has poor luminance dynamic range so of course the camera was able to capture the image with the highlights in the space station intact.

I hate to say it but as far as this comparison is concerned there is no contest. The SONY sucks and the JVC wins by a mile. This is even more apparent when viewing the actual projected images. The performance is not even close.

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What is the score thing? How do you get to 65?
Read my reviews of the Christie and the SIM2. You will see how the scoring works. I carry out a wide array of tests, allocate scores accordingly, and then calculate and allocate an overall score

On this same test the Christie scored 100 and the SIM2 scored 80

When I have time I will carry out some of the further tests and allocate scores accordingly

I will be doing the full range of contrast measurements for SDR now. I have already finished all of HDR including all dynamic contrast modes for both projectors. Following which I will post the details on here shortly

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Last edited by ARROW-AV; 04-28-2019 at 09:12 PM.
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post #937 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
JVC RS3000/NX9 vs SONY 995/870ES | ROUND 1:

INTERSTELLAR 00:53:30 PERFORMANCE
Spoiler!


SCORES:

JVC RS3000/NX9 = 90

SONY 995ES/870ES = 65


Sweet, made a juxtapose of this comparison.
https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxta...6-0edaf8f81e27

The 995ES just looks terrible in this shot. Also, my RS4500 did better in this scene than the RS3000 that was here. Im excited to see the standard group of Sony denialists to chime in on this one.
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post #938 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Sweet, made a juxtapose of this comparison.
https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxta...6-0edaf8f81e27

The 995ES just looks terrible in this shot. Also, my RS4500 did better in this scene than the RS3000 that was here. Im excited to see the standard group of Sony denialists to chime in on this one.
Just for giggles:

https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxta...6-0edaf8f81e27

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post #939 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 11:52 PM
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I agree that the JVC looks better overall in this comparison:

However - to my eyes the spaceship looks far sharper/cleaner/crisper on the Sony. Is this just me?

Edit - added picture (Sony on the right)
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post #940 of 2880 Old 04-28-2019, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Also, my RS4500 did better in this scene than the RS3000 that was here. .
Same here .....my Z1/RS4500 was substantially better performing than the NX9 i had ...
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post #941 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Just for giggles...... LK970 versus Z1/RS4500
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post #942 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Just for giggles...... LK970 versus Z1/RS4500
I'm pretty certain that this is merely the result of a camera artifact which disproportionately brightened the picture on the left hand side. You know, as cameras tend to do.

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post #943 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 12:25 AM
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I'm pretty certain that this is merely the result of a camera artifact which disproportionately brightened the picture on the left hand side. You know, as cameras tend to do.

I can assure you that is what it actually looked like ..
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post #944 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 12:28 AM
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I can assure you that is what it actually looked like ..
Just to be sure - I was being completely sarcastic. I absolutely believe that's what it looked like
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post #945 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 12:31 AM
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Just to be sure - I was being completely sarcastic. I absolutely believe that's what it looked like
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post #946 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 12:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I can assure you that is what it actually looked like ..
Well I guess I have that to look forward to what with the fact that I will be shortly evaluating in depth the latest BenQs

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post #947 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post

However - to my eyes the spaceship looks far sharper/cleaner/crisper on the Sony. Is this just me?

Edit - added picture (Sony on the right)
Sony definitely looks "Sharper/Cleaner" .
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post #948 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 12:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree that the JVC looks better overall in this comparison:

However - to my eyes the spaceship looks far sharper/cleaner/crisper on the Sony. Is this just me?

Edit - added picture (Sony on the right)
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Sony definitely looks "Sharper/Cleaner" .
Nope. What you are seeing there is a horribly sharpened image from the SONY accompanied by horrendous video artefacts caused by the SONY 995ES/870ES new additional feature, namely the 'DIGITAL FUBAR OPTIMIZER', oops sorry I meant to say 'DIGITAL FOCUS OPTIMIZER', or DFO for short... BUT because I have photographed the whole screen you can't see this detail. Furthermore, the shot of the space station with respect to the JVC is clipping due to the much higher luminance dynamic range of the projected image as compared with the SONY. The combination of which gives the illusion that the SONY's space station looks 'better', when in fact it is very much the reverse.

I will post some decent close-up photos of the space station for you

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post #949 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
JVC RS3000/NX9 vs SONY 995/870ES | ROUND 1:

INTERSTELLAR 00:53:30 PERFORMANCE




• JUXTAPOSE FRAME COMPARISON: https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxta...6-0edaf8f81e27

• SCREENSHOT COMPARISON: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/134786





SCORES:

JVC RS3000/NX9 = 90

SONY 995ES/870ES = 65


Good day!
What value does ADL have for this scene?
0.22 ADL, or even lower?
I would like to see a comparison on frames with ADL values of 1% - 3%, since already starting with 1%, and possibly with 0.5%, RS 3000 will lose to Sony.
You are constantly testing this scene, and start sighing how terrible Sony looks!
Let's watch the scenes starting at 0.5% - 1%!
What will be there !?
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post #950 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 01:05 AM
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Spoiler!



Spoiler!

Given a lot of folk don't like dynamic modes, what happens if you turn them off?
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post #951 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 01:06 AM
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Just for giggles...... LK970 versus Z1/RS4500
They should make it illegal for a projector over $3k to produce those black levels, DLP or not.
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post #952 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 02:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vladimirovich View Post
Good day!
What value does ADL have for this scene?
0.22 ADL, or even lower?
I would like to see a comparison on frames with ADL values of 1% - 3%, since already starting with 1%, and possibly with 0.5%, RS 3000 will lose to Sony.
You are constantly testing this scene, and start sighing how terrible Sony looks!
Let's watch the scenes starting at 0.5% - 1%!
What will be there !?


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post #953 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 03:47 AM
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Well that's just not fair. With the Sony it looks like a nearby star had a micro nova and blocked out the visibility of the other stars
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post #954 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Sweet, made a juxtapose of this comparison.
https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxta...6-0edaf8f81e27

The 995ES just looks terrible in this shot. Also, my RS4500 did better in this scene than the RS3000 that was here. Im excited to see the standard group of Sony denialists to chime in on this one.
This comment singularly demonstrates that you still don't get what was being argued about.
I don't recall anyone saying the JVC wouldn't look way better in the low light scenes. But more, how the blacks would be PERCEIVED if NOT next to each other.

Liking @ARROW-AV 's name for DFO too! Dynamic FUBAR Optimiser.

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This comment singularly demonstrates that you still don't get what was being argued about.
I don't recall anyone saying the JVC wouldn't look way better in the low light scenes. But more, how the blacks would be PERCEIVED if NOT next to each other.
Hey, I just tell it how it is. Impartially and unbiased. So there won't be any 'sugar-coating' happening either. I will be deep diving and reporting warts and all. The JVCs aren't perfect either, and I will come onto that

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Liking @ARROW-AV 's name for DFO too! Dynamic FUBAR Optimiser.
Trust me when I say that name has been more than earned

And I will be demonstrating why shortly...

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post #956 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 05:43 AM
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This comment singularly demonstrates that you still don't get what was being argued about.
I don't recall anyone saying the JVC wouldn't look way better in the low light scenes. But more, how the blacks would be PERCEIVED if NOT next to each other.

Liking @ARROW-AV 's name for DFO too! Dynamic FUBAR Optimiser.
And that's 1. Waiting for the others

Your argument is completely untrue. This started with me "upgrading" my RS500 to a Sony 4k. No side by side. Just having the Sony and being like "WTF is wrong with these black levels". Again no side by side. Then the side by side came when I had to hook the RS500 back up to verify it wasn't just me. And this resulted in my re-buying an RS640. You guys can be in denial all you want. That $35k Sony 995ES looks like a pasty sea of grey you cant even see the stars.

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post #957 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 05:48 AM
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Hey, I just tell it how it is. Impartially and unbiased. And there won't be any 'sugar-coating' happening either. I will be deep diving and reporting warts and all


Trust me when I say that name has been more than earned

And I will be demonstrating why shortly...

Hi Nigel.
I wasn't aiming that comment at you.

Looking forward to you proving my educated guess that DFO is simply an unnecessary addition to make the already superb lens used on the 870 look artificially 'better' that it is.

No need for that feature if you ask me.

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post #958 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 05:49 AM
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And that's 1. Waiting for the others

Your argument is completely untrue. This started with me "upgrading" my RS500 to a Sony 4k. No side by side. Just having the Sony and being like "WTF is wrong with these black levels". Again no side by side. Then the side by side came when I had to hook the RS500 back up to verify it wasn't just me. And this resulted in my re-buying an RS640. You guys can be in denial all you want. That $35k Sony 995ES looks like a pasty sea of grey you cant even see the stars.
Yawn
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post #959 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 05:54 AM
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And that's 1. Waiting for the others

Your argument is completely untrue. This started with me "upgrading" my RS500 to a Sony 4k. No side by side. Just having the Sony and being like "WTF is wrong with these black levels". Again no side by side. Then the side by side came when I had to hook the RS500 back up to verify it wasn't just me. And this resulted in my re-buying an RS640. You guys can be in denial all you want. That $35k Sony 995ES looks like a pasty sea of grey you cant even see the stars.

Mmmmm a sea of Pasties......
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post #960 of 2880 Old 04-29-2019, 06:48 AM
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Man, the JVC owners sure spend an inordinate amount of time watching movies with 100% star scenes in them
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