The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #991 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
source? But ill change my post to say "on 18%" instead of 5 since yes, I did pull it from the air. But I would like to know where you found these numbers?
In short, MULTIPLE sources

Javs has measured a bunch of 4K HDR movies as well as other content. Furthermore, he has many posts regarding this through multiple threads on this forum.

Additionally, Darin P carried out a deep dive analysis regarding measuring ADL content of movies as well.

Wherein, there's also a bunch of discussions and measurements posted in this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...t-project.html

And Florian and Anna of Projection Dream carried out this study: http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/

(EDIT: Which I note someone has already posted a link to)

Just to name a few

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post #992 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Just because it's mentioned elsewhere:

Yes, it's HDR with Iris at 0.
And I believe Nigel is working on SDR equivalent graphs.

(I may be wrong but this is my understanding)
You are not wrong in your understanding

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post #993 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
That's an excellent question. I believe it's because native is not fully native, in that there is still some dynamic contrast functionality being applied in order to boost contrast performance over and above the SONY 885/760ES, and the SONY's dynamic contrast functionality is very inefficient, as is also evident from the massive drops in white level / space station luminance between Native, Limited, and Full Dynamic Contrast settings

By the way @Kris Deering also found similar when he evaluated the SONY 995ES/870ES, wherein he found it to be dimmer than the 885ES/760ES because of this, despite being rated higher lumens.

They shouldn't need all this electronic wizardry to differentiate from the lower models.
To me it illustrates two things:
1: How little relative perceptual difference just the expensive lens made for the extra they are charging.
2: How much they actually nailed the 760 as a value proposition. Wherein it's real world performance is 95% of the 870 @ 10k less!

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post #994 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Correct. The ADL averages for HDR content is even lower.
Source?
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post #995 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post
The thing is, all projectors in this class look fantastic with brighter or mixed material. It's the really low APL scenes that is difficult to reproduce and that's what really puts the projectors to the test. That's why these comparisons tend to focus on really dark content. It's no conspiracy to favor JVC...
And just to add to what you say here...

...lesser performing black levels with bright content won't be as noticable because the high brightness of the image causes your eyes irises to close down deepening the perception of black.

This is why the HVP of ANSI (50% ADL) is circa 1,000:1 but HVP of ON/OFF (0%) far exceeds 1,000,000:1. AND 50% of content resides within the range 0-5% ADL meaning that the other 50% is spread across 5% - 100% ADL.

So HALF of video content resides within the lowest 5% of ADL with the other HALF residing in the other 95% of ADL. Wherein, this is reason in itself for focusing ont the 0-5% ADL range.

Furthermore, there is nothing worse for taking you out of being immersed in a movie than your eyes being acosted by a deluge of gray with low ADL scenes. It ruins the whole experience.

The combination of which is why so many folks (correctly) focus predominantly on the 0-5% ADL range

But ideally you want excellent contrast performance through the range 5-20% ADL as well. But out of the two it is the former that more important

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post #996 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Just for giggles...... LK970 versus Z1/RS4500

Just for giggles, why not switch the sides so the brighter spaceship is in the scene and then let the LK970 actually use one of its greatest strengths so its contrast can perform at its peak, with its Automatic Power Control laser and system dimming? You intentionally did this to exaggerate the differences.

I am in NO WAY saying the Z1 doesn’t want outperform the LK970 in on/off native contrast and black level, but I am saying that there’s NO WAY it looks like what you posted! I lived with one and tweaked endlessly for many months and know this to be truth, so I’m not going to be swayed by someone who hasn’t and intentionally posts such an utterly BS photo to encourage the biased rabble here.

There’s also NO WAY I’m going to argue with you all here because it’s fruitless doing so with those with such closed minds, biased agendas and group think.

That said, enjoy your feast on my dead carcass after it’s ripped apart here by your inevitable replies.


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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
I can assure you that is what it actually looked like ..

I can assure you that is NOT what it looks like. If it did I wouldn’t have owned one.


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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
They should make it illegal for a projector over $3k to produce those black levels, DLP or not.

They should make it illegal to intentionally skew the truth.

That was all totally uncalled for in this thread. You guys have lost all credibility with BS like that. I guess I’ll just go into all the JVC threads and endlessly make posts about every one of their flaws, mocking and laughing for no reason other than to stroke my huge elitist ego.


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Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
I'm pretty certain that this is merely the result of a camera artifact which disproportionately brightened the picture on the left hand side. You know, as cameras tend to do.




I’m sure that’s part of it. I can make my cameras do the same thing and make my screen shots look as dark or as light as I want to, depending on where I touch my iPhone’s screen.
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post #997 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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post #998 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
In short, MULTIPLE sources

Javs has measured a bunch of 4K HDR movies as well as other content. Furthermore, he has many posts regarding this through multiple threads on this forum.

Additionally, Darin P carried out a deep dive analysis regarding measuring ADL content of movies as well.

Wherein, there's also a bunch of discussions and measurements posted in this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...t-project.html

And Florian and Anna of Projection Dream carried out this study: http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/

(EDIT: Which I note someone has already posted a link to)

Just to name a few

So your source for 18% is Florian and Annas study of 57 sdr movies. And a handful of other measurements, which we can be generous and say at MOST another 50 movies have been measured between all of those other "sources" So at most the statement could be 18% of over 100 measured films.

Hardly makes your 18% number a fact. Probably a better estimation than mine. But still mostly speculation.

But even if I was to accept the 18% as fact, its still only 18%.
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post #999 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
@Javs measured a bunch of HDR movies and demonstrated this

What percentage of HDR movies is a bunch? Have Florian and Anna done the same?

Would like to be sure that none of the outside parameters were different and be sure that the measuring methodology and practices were the same.
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post #1000 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Just for giggles, why not switch the sides so the brighter spaceship is in the scene and then let the LK970 actually use one of its greatest strengths so its contrast can perform at its peak, with its Automatic Power Control laser and system dimming? You intentionally did this to exaggerate the differences.
I suggested exactly that with another picture posted on these here forums, but was met with what basically amounted to dismissive derision.

Hey ho, but at least one doesn't have to guess who it will be who replies.

Keeps me smiling though.

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post #1001 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:53 PM
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So who's the winner then
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post #1002 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
So your source for 18% is Florian and Annas study of 57 sdr movies. And a handful of other measurements, which we can be generous and say at MOST another 50 movies have been measured between all of those other "sources" So at most the statement could be 18% of over 100 measured films.

Hardly makes your 18% number a fact. Probably a better estimation than mine. But still mostly speculation.

But even if I was to accept the 18% as fact, its still only 18%.
I tell you what... When you yourself have taken the same quantity of measurements as ALL those multiple sources that I have mentioned combined, the result of which proves to the contrary, then come back and let me know

By the way, in case you are not in the know, @Javs only happens to work in the film industry, and like I have said he's measured a bunch of HDR movies, but what would he know right?

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post #1003 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Where did those number come from showing 746,872:1? That screenshot has a timestamp of 1/11/2019. The firmware versions I saw in Feb/March didn't let iris close down as much as the e-shift models (by a fair margin) I'm not sure how those numbers would be possible. Unless it was an early firmware where it was clamping down much further than it does today.



Arrow's recent RS3000 measurement

I would ask another question!
Where did the RS3000 suddenly have a contrast of 15,500: 1 and 10,500: 1 at 1% of ADL ??? Despite the fact that ANSI became less! 187: 1 against 220: 1!
At 2% of ADL, the contrast also increased by 1000 units!
How can this be despite the fact that ANSI fell ??? These are miracles ... It cannot be!
And all this is proudly recorded on a comparative chart!

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post #1004 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
What percentage of HDR movies is a bunch? Have Florian and Anna done the same?

Would like to be sure that none of the outside parameters were different and be sure that the measuring methodology and practices were the same.
I did laugh at the use of the word 'bunch'. I thought this was one of the totally scientific threads...

What I would like to know is, I am sat here watching 'You Only Live Twice' on my cheapy 400 quid Philips 4K TV and am struggling to notice any scenes that look like they would be 1-5% ADL. And even if most of the scenes ARE in that range, then why does my TV, with (at best) 1000:1-1500:1 native contrast, look so damn good all the time?

Going by the comments on here, it should look so bad 90% of the time I wouldn't be able to watch it.

Interesting thread though.

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post #1005 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:05 PM
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So who's the winner then
My guess…. Rocky Balboa.
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post #1006 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimirovich View Post
I would ask another question!
Where did the PC3000 suddenly have a contrast of 15,500: 1 and 10,500: 1 at 1% of ADL ??? Despite the fact that ANSI became less! 187: 1 against 220: 1!
At 2% of ADL, the contrast also increased by 1000 units!
How can this be despite the fact that ANSI fell ??? These are miracles ... It cannot be!
And all this is proudly recorded on a comparative chart!
Did you compare the native contrast measurements? Notice they are pretty close to the same. The dynamic dimming system was changed by firmware.
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post #1007 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:08 PM
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My Sony 695 is turned off 95% of the time so 95% of the time my contrast is pretty good!!!!!
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post #1008 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I did laugh at the use of the word 'bunch'. I thought this was one of the totally scientific threads...

What I would like to know is, I am sat here watching 'You Only Live Twice' on my cheapy 400 quid Philips 4K TV and am struggling to notice any scenes that look like they would be 1-5% ADL. And even if most of the scenes ARE in that range, then why does my TV, with (at best) 1000:1-1500:1 native contrast, look so damn good all the time?

Going by the comments on here, it should look so bad 90% of the time I wouldn't be able to watch it.

Interesting thread though.
Answered above:

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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
And just to add to what you say here...

...lesser performing black levels with bright content won't be as noticable because the high brightness of the image causes your eyes irises to close down deepening the perception of black.

When it gets to the night assault later in the movie then you'll be seeing the limitations of your set.

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post #1009 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:11 PM
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If people are getting this upset With this little bit of information, I want to grab a bag of popcorn for the Sony JVC shootout that just completed.
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post #1010 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I did laugh at the use of the word 'bunch'. I thought this was one of the totally scientific threads...

What I would like to know is, I am sat here watching 'You Only Live Twice' on my cheapy 400 quid Philips 4K TV and am struggling to notice any scenes that look like they would be 1-5% ADL. And even if most of the scenes ARE in that range, then why does my TV, with (at best) 1000:1-1500:1 native contrast, look so damn good all the time?

Going by the comments on here, it should look so bad 90% of the time I wouldn't be able to watch it.

Interesting thread though.
I guess it's the ambient light that made screens with 1000-ish contrast look good. Imac retina screens and non-OLED iphone screens are IPS screens with contrast around 1000. They all look very good with ambient light. But once you look at them in a complete dark room, they all look bad in terms of black level. But even in a complete dark room, they still look good to most customers.
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post #1011 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
@Javs measured a bunch of HDR movies and demonstrated this

Do you know when he takes the measurements on HDR material, is it before or after tone mapping?
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post #1012 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I tell you what... When you yourself have taken the same quantity of measurements as ALL those multiple sources that I have mentioned combined, the result of which proves to the contrary, then come back and let me know

By the way, in case you are not in the know, @Javs only happens to work in the film industry, and like I have said he's measured a bunch of HDR movies, but what would he know right?

To be clear, NOWHERE, did I once question @Javs ability.

Not once.

Ive been told he works in the film industry.

Not once did I hint or suggest that his findings were inaccurate.

But its not unheard of for different scientists to come to different results or conclusions, in literally ANY scientific experiment. Its just common sense that dictates the most accurate results would occur when you limit the amount of variables as much as possible.

This isnt limited to @Javs or the hometheater industry, this pertains to science and the scientific method everywhere.

Again, I already conceded that I am willing to accept your 18% number, just pointing out that your number was only slightly more informed than mine, while you presented it so concretely.
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post #1013 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
Answered above:




When it gets to the night assault later in the movie then you'll be seeing the limitations of your set.
Nope it still looks good. (Have seen it before) also, I guess the Ambilight helps.

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Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
To be clear, NOWHERE, did I once question @Javs ability.

Not once.

Ive been told he works in the film industry.

Not once did I hint or suggest that his findings were inaccurate.

But its not unheard of for different scientists to come to different results or conclusions, in literally ANY scientific experiment. Its just common sense that dictates the most accurate results would occur when you limit the amount of variables as much as possible.

This isnt limited to @Javs or the hometheater industry, this pertains to science and the scientific method everywhere.

Again, I already conceded that I am willing to accept your 18% number, just pointing out that your number was only slightly more informed than mine, while you presented it so concretely.
The group of films does include the Art of Flight. That film has to be close to one of the highest ADL movies out there. Looking over the list, I do not see it skewed toward dark Sci Fi.
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post #1015 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:19 PM
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If people are getting this upset With this little bit of information, I want to grab a bag of popcorn for the Sony JVC shootout that just completed.
Yeah, can't wait to see what conspiracy theories surface on that thread.
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post #1016 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:20 PM
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If people are getting this upset With this little bit of information, I want to grab a bag of popcorn for the Sony JVC shootout that just completed.
I feel like Spock saying this, but feelings have nothing to do with any of this lol.

Pointing out flaws or inaccuracies does not have to be an emotional endeavor whatsoever.

Sometimes its just about bringing balance to the force.
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Nope it still looks good. (Have seen it before) also, I guess the Ambilight helps.
It must. Our old Samsung flat panel was around the same specs and it's low contrast performance was apparent in low APL scenes.

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post #1018 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:23 PM
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If people are getting this upset With this little bit of information, I want to grab a bag of popcorn for the Sony JVC shootout that just completed.
Agreed!!!! I actually just come on here to troll and entertain myself (I know that's a horrible thing to say or admit) but I have seen enough of these threads and shootouts to know how the conversation always goes. People get emotional and the bickering starts. The number one focus is contrast in almost all these types of evaluation and that's fine but my personal criteria is low lag, good motion handling, sharpness and accurate colors...that's because I game a ton. So what I look for in a projector is surely different than other folks. And what one person thinks is acceptable level of contrast is doesn't cut it for somebody who values contrast above all else.

Pretty much summarizes every Sony, BENQ, JVC thread I have read over the last four years. Rinse and repeat!!!!
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post #1019 of 3022 Old 04-29-2019, 01:24 PM
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The group of films does include the Art of Flight. That film has to be close to one of the highest ADL movies out there. Looking over the list, I do not see it skewed toward dark Sci Fi.
I agree completely. It doesnt seem to be skewed at all.

I'm not sure where my post implied that, if it came off that way.

My post was primarily, I would rather the same person do the measurements for both SDR and HDR. If we are going to reference them to prove a point. Whether we compare Jav's SDR measurements to Javs HDR measurements, or compare F&A's SDR measurements to HDR measurements.

Im not even arguing with the results. Im just arguing for a testing methodology with as few variables as possible.

In fact the only real hypothesis I have from the list of films is that animated films seem to have higher ADL on average lol. So if you like Animated films, maybe the Sony will be better
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These last few posts have been quite the entertainment.
Someone somehow managed to equate poor contrast to cannibalism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
But its not unheard of for different scientists to come to different results or conclusions, in literally ANY scientific experiment. Its just common sense that dictates the most accurate results would occur when you limit the amount of variables as much as possible.
That's true, but as you know it's mostly in studies that have too many variables, or sometimes it's literally intentional because of the revolving corporate door at the FDA.

Food studies are the worst (if you eat red meat, you're going to die this much sooner).
The problem is, socioeconomic factors skew the study by default and their counterbalance equations are faulty.

Plus they give you the results in one flat %, rather than quantifying or qualifying them to the degree needed.

I read all the 'eating salt' causes high BP studies, now when a doctor tells me to reduce salt intake, first thing I do is ask him if he bothered to read the studies.
Time to grab a hamburger

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