The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread - Page 37 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 2881 Old 04-29-2019, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Why all of a sudden has everybodies guage reset on what is acceptable contrast?
For the same reason people become Scientologists, I suspect.
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post #1082 of 2881 Old 04-29-2019, 08:28 PM
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Where are the non-starfield comparison screenshots?
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post #1083 of 2881 Old 04-29-2019, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
JVC strongly outperforms the Sony in 18% of content... yet 99% of screenshots on avs forums are these 18% content. Strange coincidence.

My plan is to buy a super bright projector, and then just keep a basket of Sunglasses on hand. Instead of being 3D glasses, they'll be my JVC glasses. You just have to remember to put them on for space scenes, and then take them off for the rest of the movie.
lol, right on..... In the end if you want the best you buy a Sony or JVC. You will not see me throwing either away.
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post #1084 of 2881 Old 04-29-2019, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Man, the JVC owners sure spend an inordinate amount of time watching movies with 100% star scenes in them
It's nice to watch some scifi like "the expanse" and not have to get taken out of the quality of the picture every 5 minutes when a nice space scene shows up by seeing a pasty milky grey for space.
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post #1085 of 2881 Old 04-29-2019, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
30k dynamic is low though. Bordering acceptable. I guess it's not incredibly low though sure, what's the native contrast on the UZ? Incredibly low I bet?
The native contrast on the UHZ65 is low at about 1100:1 or so and that's why I can see brightness compression with the more aggressive dimming mode. The dynamic dimming there extends too far in comparison to where its native contrast checks in.

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Why all of a sudden has everybodies guage reset on what is acceptable contrast?
...not sure. I can speak for myself. When contrast is discussed, it's important to the analysis on what's suitable.
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post #1086 of 2881 Old 04-29-2019, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
They shouldn't need all this electronic wizardry to differentiate from the lower models.
To me it illustrates two things:
1: How little relative perceptual difference just the expensive lens made for the extra they are charging.
2: How much they actually nailed the 760 as a value proposition. Wherein it's real world performance is 95% of the 870 @ 10k less!
Honestly, I agree on all points here. Especially with the Euro pricing.

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post #1087 of 2881 Old 04-29-2019, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Just for giggles, why not switch the sides so the brighter spaceship is in the scene and then let the LK970 actually use one of its greatest strengths so its contrast can perform at its peak, with its Automatic Power Control laser and system dimming? You intentionally did this to exaggerate the differences.
This won't matter at all. The space ship is super bright compared to everything else on that image, but its still a really small dot on the screen. Even with the space ship, the JVC iris clamps to 1 pixel of white level.

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post #1088 of 2881 Old 04-29-2019, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
They shouldn't need all this electronic wizardry to differentiate from the lower models.
To me it illustrates two things:
1: How little relative perceptual difference just the expensive lens made for the extra they are charging.
2: How much they actually nailed the 760 as a value proposition. Wherein it's real world performance is 95% of the 870 @ 10k less!
Yep, before I even signed up to this forum - just reading all the independent reviews of projectors the 760 stood out as the best value proposition, and was my original planned projector. Reviews of the 870 seemed to imply marginal, incremental improvements. Not 10k worth at all.

@coolgeek seems to have reached similar conclusions having tested them both side by side.
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post #1089 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 12:30 AM
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Excellent explanation and demonstration!
Well done @Javs

The higher the target nits and therefore the white reference, the lower the resulting ADL%.

I would be interested to do the same SDR-HDR comparison for the MEG where the "Fall" Dynamic Target nits Algo asks for target nits well above 1000nits in the bright scene outside.

Or for 'blade runner 2049' or 'the mountain between us' where the frame peak is most of the time below 100nits.

Also for dark frames where peak is lower than your Real Nits (we get Target Nits=Real Nits. I wonder how it would compare to the SDR version if you have a frame peak lower than 50nits and:
A) a real nits on screen of 50nits and therefore a target nits of 50nits
B) a real nits on screen of 100nits and therefore a target nits of 100nits
C) a real nits of 150nits and therefore a target nits of 100nits.
A) b) c) will both be showing the exact same brightness and dynamic range but the ADL% will be significantly different between them. And which one will be closer to the SDR one?

Cheers

Florian

Ps: we should move this discussion to the ADL topic.

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Basically HDR ADL is lower than SDR, I cant see how in any scenario it would actually be brighter, and I think I covered most of the bases here. ST2084 would be EVEN lower again than tone mapping for projectors, you need to remember that projectors are dim as hell, so if I can very easily prove that projector tone mapped HDR STILL has lower ADL than SDR, which I do, then displays with true peaks at 1000-4000nits will absolutely be looking at ADL level considerably lower than the average ADL level of SDR, when you rerad my post below, it should make total sense.

ONE thing to remember, and this is really important. You need to think of video as a container, and the container can only be filled so much, there is no changing how full it can get. Your display being able to do 100 or 1000 peak nits both look at the SAME container, the ADL level is a measurement of how full that container is in essence and the measurement should be taken with a gamma applied to it since that is the image the display sees. How bright your display is, is completely irrelevant when measuring ADL, unless you change the tone mapping parameters (which I do below), but as your display gets brighter, we would tone map to a higher peak nits level which actually pushes the ultimate ADL lower, since the other thing you need to remember is 0-100 nits encoded is actually 50% of the entire container! The other 101-10,000 nits is the other 50%.

What happens below would apply to any shot I measure in HDR vs its SDR version, the ADL is always going to be lower.

Post dump begins...



My point is I believe you are incorrect in your assumption that HDR is generally brighter and thus favours a projector with higher ADL Contrast performance compared to one with higher native...

I just did quite a lot of interesting exploration to see if my hypothesys is correct, and I think I am correct here.

HDR for any given frame actually has a lower ADL as far as your display device is concerned. I will show you how.

I pulled a pretty good frame from LUCY, this is the kind of shot which wows me in HDR, it has extreemely bright highlight elements and a darker mid tone to it, there can appear to be tremendous range to this image in HDR.

First, here is the shot from the SDR Bluray. Look at the waveform. The display device sees this whole image and will map it using gamma to its capabilities. Think of the waveform in its entirety as a container. In SDR this is very easy to get right, since you only have to set your white and black clipping, and you can be sure your display will map this properly and everybody for a given Gamma setting (I am going to use 2.4) should be looking at an image with the same ADL.

By the way, this shot in SDR has an ADL level of 2.96%



Now, this is the shot pulled right from the UHD Bluray with nothing at all done to the image:

This shot RAW as it sits on disk if you viewed it at 2.4 has an ADL level of 2.26%
. But we dont view it this way, this is just for giggles.



Looking at the waveform though, and thus, the size of the container which has a ceiling of 10,000 nits, we can see most of the content is lower. But since we dont have a 10.000 nits display, we dont clip to that, and hence we need to look more at what say, setting a 1000 nits clipping point might do, which is probably what most LCD's and OLED's will be doing...

So here is the same image but tone mapped to 1000 nits clipping, now our container ceiling is 1000 nits max which is much more realistic. Most of the content is even lower now, NOTE. If you have a 1000 nits display, and you simply set your clipping point as such, then this image will look correct. I am using a Samsung QLED right now, and I just put backlight on max which is about 1000 nits, and sure enough, yep it looks like it should.



But more interestingly, guess what. This shot now has an ADL of only 0.58% according to a true 1000 nit display, LED LCD or OLED. The tone mapping uses gamma 2.2 as a baseline, so I calculated it based on that but this should be correct math. Since the tone mapping I just used is designed to put the display into 2.2 gamma mode and it will do the rest (MadVR).

So what we know from this, the ADL is based on the 'container' of information the display device is dealing with and associated gamma. Tone mapping will greatly impact this number. What I can tell you with confidence, is, if the general level of the image is overall brighter and I am including shadow and mid tones, vs another image, then its going to have a higher ADL level. SDR is more 'flat' and everything is bunched together, so, to your display device and I can prove this with math, it absolutely has a higher ADL level. At least I have just shown this to be the case with a true 1000 nits display.

But what about projectors? Lets assume you have a pretty bright one since you mentioned that, lets assume you can get 150 nits on a large screen since 'cinema' is what we are chasing.

Then, lets look at a VERY well dynamic tone mapped version of that shot for a 150 peak nits display.

This has an ADL of 2.81%



Now we see that the image is using the WHOLE container. BUT, its punchy, there is still a good deal of depth between the brightest elements and the darkest, so, when viewed at about 150-200 nits, this should look stunning and notably superior to the SDR version, there should be no doubt. But as you can see, according to your display, interestingly, unless we push the tone mapping harder, it does indeed have a very similar ADL level to the SDR version, it does NOT have a higher ADL level.

I will note, I doubt that Daves DLP Harpervision comes close to this, not to step on him, but unless Dave is making a new version of Harper-vision for every scene in the film, then this tone mapping is going to be quite superior, its doing pretty much exactly what Dolby Vision is doing it knows precisely how bright each frame is and is adapting itself to maximise the rendition of dynamic range in each scene so as not to throw away any potential for that famous HDR punch. Except this adds a little twist, it will discard the very very brightest pixels and tone map a hair under it, making that impact even better, read this post for more info on what it is doing:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57590544

Lets lastly look at the same shot but how we used to tone map HDR when using a single value for the whole film. I used to use around this setting on my JVC with custom curves before Dynamic HDR Tone Mapping and Dynamic Clipping came around.

This is a target of 350 nits, this is probably quit similar to how the Oppo used to do tone mapping by entering a value. I havent seen the new Panasonic version, but its probably not too far off, though I think that target will change throughout the movie if I'm not mistaken so its a bit more dynamic. point being MOST people with projectors are probably looking at something resembling the below if they have decent light output and running things like curves.

This shot has an ADL of 1.77%



Summary, HDR does NOT have a higher ADL than SDR, it is not brighter according to your display. Fact.

It would be better to have a display device with higher contrast all round (or stronger native at low ADL) than one which favours high ADL levels.

Most all the LCOS technology projectors will have a contrast ratio of about 4,000:1 (up to about 6k) by 2% ADL by the way. Most DLP's probably 1600? (Kris?)
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post #1090 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 02:59 AM
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You can't take pictures from two different rooms and two different cameras with different settings and come up with any type of comparison. it does not work that way.
Yes Mike, I know that

As I said, I was just having some fun. Some of the comparison shots, posted by some people, have been a complete joke so I thought I would do one as well. You can make them show whatever you want them to show.

Does the JVC have better blacks than my UHZ65? Of course it does. Thats about it.

Are the blacks on my UHZ65 a Milky Gray? Nope. The Milky Way looks pretty dam black
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post #1091 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 05:59 AM
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Where are the non-starfield comparison screenshots?

Only star field comparisons are valid when comparing a JVC.
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post #1092 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 07:23 AM
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What's up with all the BenQ and Optoma chat in this thread? It's almost like everybody was waiting for someone to sneeze "BEN-QUUUU!" so they could come in here and stir things up. Just because the 2019 general projector comparison thread died doesn't mean you can't go revive it: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...on-thread.html

And don't give me the typical "JVC fanboi" nonsense. I don't even own a projector yet. I'm running a borrowed Mitsubishi 7800D... My NX7 (which I decided on before I even found this forum) probably will never arrive, so I might have to buy a Sony whether I like it or not.
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post #1093 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 07:36 AM
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Yeah, can't wait to see what conspiracy theories surface on that thread.
Anyone have a link to that trainwreck?
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post #1094 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 07:44 AM
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What's up with all the BenQ and Optoma chat in this thread? It's almost like everybody was waiting for someone to sneeze "BEN-QUUUU!" so they could come in here and stir things up. Just because the 2019 general projector comparison thread died doesn't mean you can't go revive it: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...on-thread.html

And don't give me the typical "JVC fanboi" nonsense. I don't even own a projector yet. I'm running a borrowed Mitsubishi 7800D... My NX7 (which I decided on before I even found this forum) probably will never arrive, so I might have to buy a Sony whether I like it or not.
Most DLP owners can't read very well so we are easily confused about what thread we are in . Kinda like the Owner's Thread for my UHZ65. Probably 5-6 hundred posts from JVC owners who have never even seen one.

Unfortunately every thread here goes of topic

I will at least bow out and not contribute to the chaos. On this thread anyways

Sincere apologizes to Arrow
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post #1095 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 07:48 AM
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What's up with all the BenQ and Optoma chat in this thread?
The BenQ/Optoma threads are where I go when I want to read about JVCs --heck you can throw in the Sony threads too.


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My NX7 (which I decided on before I even found this forum) probably will never arrive, so I might have to buy a Sony whether I like it or not.
Go demo the 695ES...it's an all-around solid performer.
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post #1096 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 07:52 AM
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People complain about the dark scene screenshots because that shows the deficiencies of low contrast projectors, but that is really where the differences are. Most all projectors look good on bright content, so if showing that type of content, they are all going to look good and not a whole lot to seperate them other than size of screen they can light up. It is on the tougher scenes, where you start to see differences. That and the features, like powered lens shift, lens memory, HDR tone mapping and such.
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post #1097 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 07:58 AM
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Just because the 2019 general projector comparison thread died doesn't mean you can't go revive it: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...on-thread.html
I clicked on your link. It's talking about two Sim 2 projectors stacked now.

There's that joke once again: "I went to a boxing match but a hockey game broke out."
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post #1098 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I clicked on your link. It's talking about two Sim 2 projectors stacked now.

There's that joke once again: "I went to a boxing match but a hockey game broke out."
Are those not 2019 model projectors?
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post #1099 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
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Yep, and it looked stunning.


Spoiler!
Epic. Nice images.

I think it may have been the source which let it down for me (streaming via Now TV in the UK), there was horrible banding and loads of compression artifacts from start to finish.
Watched the Amazon feed on my X790 and it was probably one of the worst things I have ever seen on my projector.

There was a lot of banding and it was so dark it was difficult to tell what was going on half the time.

The beginning of John Wick 2 is stunning. The picture quality in that episode was down right terrible!
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post #1100 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 10:55 AM
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Just imagine the standard cable feed. The amazon feed was much better.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Yep, and it looked stunning.


Spoiler!
Epic. Nice images.

I think it may have been the source which let it down for me (streaming via Now TV in the UK), there was horrible banding and loads of compression artifacts from start to finish.
Watched the Amazon feed on my X790 and it was probably one of the worst things I have ever seen on my projector.

There was a lot of banding and it was so dark it was difficult to tell what was going on half the time.

The beginning of John Wick 2 is stunning. The picture quality in that episode was down right terrible!
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post #1101 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I clicked on your link. It's talking about two Sim 2 projectors stacked now.

There's that joke once again: "I went to a boxing match but a hockey game broke out."
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Are those not 2019 model projectors?
Yes, they are

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post #1102 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 01:35 PM
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Watched the Amazon feed on my X790 and it was probably one of the worst things I have ever seen on my projector.
There was a lot of banding and it was so dark it was difficult to tell what was going on half the time.
I lost patience waiting for my JVC lamp to arrive, so I watched it on my 50 lumen Benq due to defective lamp (that was torch mode), it was pretty bad.
A DLP with 900:1 Native and 50 lumens, it was almost unwatchable, it was a total mess.

Do not expand the spoiler section if you haven't already seen the episode, this is actually a spoiler (not an image).

Spoiler!

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post #1103 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
Watched the Amazon feed on my X790 and it was probably one of the worst things I have ever seen on my projector.

There was a lot of banding and it was so dark it was difficult to tell what was going on half the time.

The beginning of John Wick 2 is stunning. The picture quality in that episode was down right terrible!
Was very watchable on mine. It was dark, but I didn't have any trouble seeing what was going on. What fl are you at with SDR? I'm probably on the high side. I think even with the lamp iris at -15, I'm still around 20-22 fl.
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post #1104 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 02:25 PM
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Was very watchable on mine. It was dark, but I didn't have any trouble seeing what was going on. What fl are you at with SDR? I'm probably on the high side. I think even with the lamp iris at -15, I'm still around 20-22 fl.


I also thought it looked surprisingly good on my NX5 which with iris at 0 is about 20fL.
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post #1105 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 02:29 PM
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Are those not 2019 model projectors?
You were right. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes, they are

Those Sim 2s must throw some nice images.
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post #1106 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 02:55 PM
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I also thought it looked surprisingly good on my NX5 which with iris at 0 is about 20fL.
Hi SirMaster,

What screen are you using? Thanks.
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post #1107 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 02:57 PM
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Hi SirMaster,



What screen are you using? Thanks.


DIY painted blackout cloth.
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post #1108 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 03:02 PM
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DIY painted blackout cloth.
Thanks. I looked at your pictures and didn't realize it. You spent some time on it. Looks very good!
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post #1109 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
DIY painted blackout cloth.
How does the painted Blackout cloth compare to the regular unpainted BO cloth?
What attributes did you gain?

The reason I ask is because I have dual screens, my 2.35 screen is a 120" DIY flush BO cloth wall screen framed with black velvet.
My 16:9 screen is a Draper Electric 106" that drops in front of it.

I'm actually happy with the plain BO cloth though, as it looks almost identical to the Draper Electric
(except BO cloth has slightly less texture, but neither are noticeable from viewing distance).

I really prefer the flush wall screen since that way my electric doesn't hit against it or hang in mid-air so to speak.

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Last edited by coderguy; 04-30-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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post #1110 of 2881 Old 04-30-2019, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
How does the painted Blackout cloth compare to the regular unpainted BO cloth?
What attributes did you gain?

The reason I ask is because I have dual screens, my 2.35 screen is a 120" DIY flush BO cloth wall screen framed with black velvet.
My 16:9 screen is a Draper Electric 106" that drops in front of it.

I'm actually happy with the plain BO cloth though, as it looks almost identical to the Draper Electric
(except BO cloth has slightly less texture, but neither are noticeable from viewing distance).

I really prefer the flush wall screen since that way my electric doesn't hit against it or hang in mid-air so to speak.
I guess more reflectivity?

I followed this guide here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...d-screens.html

And the paint I ended up using was simply entirely this:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...l#post12107464

Behr Flat Exterior ULTRA UPW #4850

Here I took a close up shot of my screen.
https://imgur.com/XBxswOg

Maybe this looks somewhat textured, but this is a pretty close up shot. It's rather smooth IMO and OK for 4K. When focusing I can see the pixel structure of my NX5's 4K pixels on a 136" diagonal 16:9 screen.

That being said, I just recently replaced my Panasonic PT-AE8000U with an NX5 and will be replacing my 6 year old DIY screen anyways for a few reasons.
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