The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread - Page 79 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2341 of 2387 Old 09-11-2019, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hi.
By your own measurements, isn't that the only area they fall behind the JVC's on anyway?

So, bearing that in mind, it makes no sense for them to do anything extra over 1% ADL anyway I would have thought.
The QBF test pattern results go to the JVC. (except for 995)
HDR auto tone mapping goes to the JVC.
Auto selection of HDR goes to the JVC. (Sony is adding this to select models this year)
HDR DTM being added this year to the JVC.

I agree, both JVC and Sony need to improve their native contrast.
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post #2342 of 2387 Old 09-11-2019, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The QBF test pattern results go to the JVC. (except for 995)
HDR auto tone mapping goes to the JVC.
Auto selection of HDR goes to the JVC. (Sony is adding this to select models this year)
HDR DTM being added this year to the JVC.

I agree, both JVC and Sony need to improve their native contrast.
I was (obviously I think), only referring to the black level performance in 1% ADL or less scenes in the context of what I was replying to.

But thanks for pointing those other things out though.

It is obvious you are a bit of a fan...

I bet you even have JVC drinks coasters at home don't you.....

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post #2343 of 2387 Old 09-11-2019, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The QBF test pattern results go to the JVC. (except for 995)
HDR auto tone mapping goes to the JVC.
Auto selection of HDR goes to the JVC. (Sony is adding this to select models this year)
HDR DTM being added this year to the JVC.

I agree, both JVC and Sony need to improve their native contrast.
For the bulb based units you forgot:

- Much higher calibrated lumens
- Lens memory on all models
- BT2020 filter on mid tier and high end
- iris on all models
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post #2344 of 2387 Old 09-12-2019, 03:05 PM
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Anybody waiting for Dolby Vision to become available?
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post #2345 of 2387 Old 09-12-2019, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
Anybody waiting for Dolby Vision to become available?
That may never happen.
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post #2346 of 2387 Old 09-13-2019, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
Anybody waiting for Dolby Vision to become available?


With dynamic tone mapping I don’t see a reason to need or want Dolby Vision.
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post #2347 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hi.
By your own measurements, isn't that the only area they fall behind the JVC's on anyway?

So, bearing that in mind, it makes no sense for them to do anything extra over 1% ADL anyway I would have thought.
Not really

The only such comparative measurements I have taken and posted so far were specifically with respect to (1) The JVC RS3000/NX9; (2) HDR performance; and (3) as compared when as closely matched as possible with the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS

The most relevant comparative measurements are those comparing the SONY laser projectors directly with that of the JVC RS4500/Z1, not the JVC RS3000/NX9; and with respect to both SDR and HDR performance.

I will very shortly be measuring a JVC RS4500/Z1 and so will be sure to post the comparative data accordingly.

That said, is the primary target objective here simply to match the performance of the JVCs? Or to achieve optimum video performance? Wherein, it should be noted that, irrespective of the performance of the JVCs, the SONY laser projectors contrast performance trails considerably behind that of both the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS and the CHRISTIE ECLIPSE.

So, it makes no sense for them to do anything extra over 1% ADL anyway? I strongly disagree

Furthermore, it is also worth noting that the SONY 1100ES measured peak ON/OFF contrast performance, including dynamic contrast functionality, of over 300,000:1... and yet the comparative maximum dynamic ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES measures only circa 25,000:1

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post #2348 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 12:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
Anybody waiting for Dolby Vision to become available?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
With dynamic tone mapping I don’t see a reason to need or want Dolby Vision.
Here's a reason for you... 12-bit colour depth

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post #2349 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Furthermore, it is also worth noting that the SONY 1100ES measured peak ON/OFF contrast performance, including dynamic contrast functionality, of over 300,000:1... and yet the comparative maximum dynamic ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES measures only circa 25,000:1

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Is it possible that the (supposed) countermeasures applied to the panels to prevent degradation is also reducing native contrast?
I wonder if they have some next gen panels in development.....? Things need to improve if they are to be in the same ballpark contrast wise.

Having said that, I really love the image on my 760. So calm and vibrant.

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post #2350 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Not really



The only such comparative measurements I have taken and posted so far were specifically with respect to (1) The JVC RS3000/NX9; (2) HDR performance; and (3) as compared when as closely matched as possible with the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS



The most relevant comparative measurements are those comparing the SONY laser projectors directly with that of the JVC RS4500/Z1, not the JVC RS3000/NX9; and with respect to both SDR and HDR performance.



I will very shortly be measuring a JVC RS4500/Z1 and so will be sure to post the comparative data accordingly.



That said, is the primary target objective here simply to match the performance of the JVCs? Or to achieve optimum video performance? Wherein, it should be noted that, irrespective of the performance of the JVCs, the SONY laser projectors contrast performance trails considerably behind that of both the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS and the CHRISTIE ECLIPSE.



So, it makes no sense for them to do anything extra over 1% ADL anyway? I strongly disagree



Furthermore, it is also worth noting that the SONY 1100ES measured peak ON/OFF contrast performance, including dynamic contrast functionality, of over 300,000:1... and yet the comparative maximum dynamic ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES measures only circa 25,000:1





Not sure if it can be improved but can the 870es ( by firmware ) Improve the contrast performance Nigel ?


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post #2351 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
Anybody waiting for Dolby Vision to become available?
Nope.
The 12bit colour depth is a bit of a luxury, but with projectors DTM is more imortant for ultimate presentation I think. And with these independent DTM solutions coming about and home grown stuff by jvc etc, then I think DV is not something needed on PJs anymore.

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post #2352 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Is it possible that the (supposed) countermeasures applied to the panels to prevent degradation is also reducing native contrast?
I wonder if they have some next gen panels in development.....? Things need to improve if they are to be in the same ballpark contrast wise.
Nope. The native contrast performance of the SXRD LCoS video panels are exactly the same as they have always been.

The difference as compared with both the SONY 1100ES and the JVCs is simply due to the absence of a well designed manually adjustable iris in combination with comparatively weak dynamic laser dimming.

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Not sure if it can be improved but can the 870es ( by firmware ) Improve the contrast performance Nigel ?
SONY could most certainly improve the dynamic contrast performance via a firmware update of they so chose to do so

That said, it is in fact difficult to select a 'one shoe fits all' strength of dynamic contrast functionality for all setups and environments and personal preferences. Increasing the strength too much can result in manifestation of undesirable video artefacts. Consequently, what I would really like to see is both JVC and SONY offer a comprehensive range of strength settings, such as 0 - 10, ranging from very weak to very strong. Then the user would be able to choose the setting that is best for their setup and environment plus their particular personal preference.

The other issue is that SONY's mechanical iris is not as well designed as JVCs in that it only increases the ON/OFF contrast performance by circa 35% from when fully open to fully closed, whereas JVC achieves up to a circa 300% increase in performance with theirs. I know this because the SONY 360ES gave the user manual control over the mechanical iris, which is exactly the same one that features within the SONY 885/760ES and 995/870ES, and I measured the difference in contrast performance. Consequently, this is the order of magnitude of improvement that I expect to be measuring with the SONY 885/760ES with the new firmware.

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post #2353 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Nope.
The 12bit colour depth is a bit of a luxury, but with projectors DTM is more imortant for ultimate presentation I think. And with these independent DTM solutions coming about and home grown stuff by jvc etc, then I think DV is not something needed on PJs anymore.
To truly benefit from the delights of 12-bit colour depth with projectors you really need to have a full RGB laser light engine, so it's not really relevant with respect to home theater projectors at the present time

DTM is without a doubt way more important and does currently render Dolby Vision with consumer projectors somewhat redundant

But it's not entirely accurate to say that there's no benefit of having Dolby Vision over DTM, because there is a benefit, namely 12-bit colour depth, but at the present time it is not a significant benefit with respect to home theater projectors

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post #2354 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 03:17 AM
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Nope. The native contrast performance of the SXRD LCoS video panels are exactly the same as they have always been.



The difference as compared with both the SONY 1100ES and the JVCs is simply due to the absence of a well designed manually adjustable iris in combination with comparatively weak dynamic laser dimming.





SONY could most certainly improve the dynamic contrast performance via a firmware update of they so chose to do so



That said, it is in fact difficult to select a 'one shoe fits all' strength of dynamic contrast functionality for all setups and environments and personal preferences. Increasing the strength too much can result in manifestation of undesirable video artefacts. Consequently, what I would really like to see is both JVC and SONY offer a comprehensive range of strength settings, such as 0 - 10, ranging from very weak to very strong. Then the user would be able to choose the setting that is best for their setup and environment plus their particular personal preference.



The other issue is that SONY's mechanical iris is not as well designed as JVCs in that it only increases the ON/OFF contrast performance by circa 35% from when fully open to fully closed, whereas JVC achieves up to a circa 300% increase in performance with theirs. I know this because the SONY 360ES gave the user manual control over the mechanical iris, which is exactly the same one that features within the SONY 885/760ES and 995/870ES, and I measured the difference in contrast performance. Consequently, this is the order of magnitude of improvement that I expect to be measuring with the SONY 885/760ES with the new firmware.





Thanks Nigel for you reply. Did you ever mention your findings to Sony and see if they can improve ? Don’t get me wrong the Pq I’m getting is great with my settings ( and yes that’s all that matters to me ) but Sony doesn’t make it easy to contact , especially the right people that are in know.


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post #2355 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Nigel for you reply. Did you ever mention your findings to Sony and see if they can improve ? Don’t get me wrong the Pq I’m getting is great with my settings ( and yes that’s all that matters to me ) but Sony doesn’t make it easy to contact , especially the right people that are in know.
Yes. I did

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Yes. I did

Lets hope they listened 😊

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post #2357 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 04:33 AM
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To truly benefit from the delights of 12-bit colour depth with projectors you really need to have a full RGB laser light engine, so it's not really relevant with respect to home theater projectors at the present time



DTM is without a doubt way more important and does indeed render Dolby Vision with consumer projectors kinda redundant



But it's not entirely accurate to say that there's no benefit of having Dolby Vision over DTM, because there is a benefit, namely 12-bit colour depth, but at the present time it is not a significant benefit with respect to home theater projectors





I saw your quick comment on how good the 5000 looked at CEDIA. Did you have some more details on your thoughts on 5000 with the firmware update? Anxiously awaiting


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post #2358 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I saw your quick comment on how good the 5000 looked at CEDIA. Did you have some more details on your thoughts on 5000 with the firmware update? Anxiously awaiting
Well, the SONY 5000ES in the Alcons demo, which did not have the new firmware, looked comparatively very considerably worse in comparison. However, due to being different units, with different calibrations, and different environments we cannot draw any definitive conclusions from this

It is my intention to evaluate and measure a SONY 5000ES with the new firmware update in controlled conditions once the firmware update is released. Only then can I properly comment regarding the comparative difference in performance, and I will do so with accompanying measurements

However, subjectively what I can say is that it looked without a doubt the best that I have ever seen the 5000ES look to date

Personally, I consider the best projected images at CEDIA 2019 to be the JVC RS3000/NX9 and the SONY 5000ES, each with their respective new firmware updates; and I can't wait to evaluate the both of these in depth once the respective firmware updates are released

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post #2359 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
To truly benefit from the delights of 12-bit colour depth with projectors you really need to have a full RGB laser light engine, so it's not really relevant with respect to home theater projectors at the present time

DTM is without a doubt way more important and does currently render Dolby Vision with consumer projectors somewhat redundant

But it's not entirely accurate to say that there's no benefit of having Dolby Vision over DTM, because there is a benefit, namely 12-bit colour depth, but at the present time it is not a significant benefit with respect to home theater projectors

I don't believe I did.

I just said that I don't think DV offers anything in real terms over any other DTM for PJs at this point.

I am all for the very best version of any particular thing and if they can get DV onto PJs in any meaningful way, I will certainly give it the once over.

Once they can offer the step up then the argument changes anyway.

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post #2360 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 06:47 AM
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Not sure if it can be improved but can the 870es ( by firmware ) Improve the contrast performance Nigel ?


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Nigel already stated that by the way how Sony developed laser dimming and iris functionality, unfortunately doesn't improve dynamic contrast much it was around 20÷ boost, where ideally it should 300÷ boost. We will be testing it for sure once firmware is released.

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post #2361 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Not really

The only such comparative measurements I have taken and posted so far were specifically with respect to (1) The JVC RS3000/NX9; (2) HDR performance; and (3) as compared when as closely matched as possible with the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS

The most relevant comparative measurements are those comparing the SONY laser projectors directly with that of the JVC RS4500/Z1, not the JVC RS3000/NX9; and with respect to both SDR and HDR performance.

I will very shortly be measuring a JVC RS4500/Z1 and so will be sure to post the comparative data accordingly.

That said, is the primary target objective here simply to match the performance of the JVCs? Or to achieve optimum video performance? Wherein, it should be noted that, irrespective of the performance of the JVCs, the SONY laser projectors contrast performance trails considerably behind that of both the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS and the CHRISTIE ECLIPSE.

So, it makes no sense for them to do anything extra over 1% ADL anyway? I strongly disagree

Furthermore, it is also worth noting that the SONY 1100ES measured peak ON/OFF contrast performance, including dynamic contrast functionality, of over 300,000:1... and yet the comparative maximum dynamic ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY 995/870ES measures only circa 25,000:1

Sorry, what I meant was that the main thing everyone says needs improving on the Sony's is low APL scenes. The Dual contrast thingy should see it improved and that will satisfy most, and those who aren't dark level fiends, I would think.
Apart from the very low APL scenes there isn't really anything I look at in my 760 image that gives me cause to grumble. It is an extremely satisfying image in general.

I know it could always be better, but it is all degrees of diminishing returns as things get better and time moves on.

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Last edited by Archibald1; 09-17-2019 at 11:13 AM.
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post #2362 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 08:33 AM
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I was (obviously I think), only referring to the black level performance in 1% ADL or less scenes in the context of what I was replying to.

But thanks for pointing those other things out though.

It is obvious you are a bit of a fan...

I bet you even have JVC drinks coasters at home don't you.....
Mike is not a JVC fanboy, as you light lightheartedly took a shot at his statement of facts. Mike is a fanatic. Mike is fanatical about finding the best performing audio video equipment for himself and his customers. I for one really appreciate his objectivity and knowledge.

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Sorry, what I meant was that the main thing everyone says needs improving on the Sony's is low APL scenes. The Dual contrast thingy should see it improved and that will satisfy most, and those who aren't dark level friends, I would think.
Apart from the very low APL scenes there isn't really anything I look at in my 760 image that gives me cause to grumble. It is an extremely satisfying image in general.

I know it could always be better, but it is all degrees of diminishing returns as things get better and time moves on.
Contrast can always be better, but the latest dynamic tone mapping on the Lumagen, combined with Kris Deering's calibration, has dark scenes looking about as good as they ever have on my RS4500 anyway. I thought the VW885 in the Sony demo room looked very good, even on the very large screen they had it on.
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post #2364 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 09:07 AM
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Well, the SONY 5000ES in the Alcons demo, which did not have the new firmware, looked comparatively very considerably worse in comparison. However, due to being different units, with different calibrations, and different environments we cannot draw any definitive conclusions from this



It is my intention to evaluate and measure a SONY 5000ES with the new firmware update in controlled conditions once the firmware update is released. Only then can I properly comment regarding the comparative difference in performance, and I will do so with accompanying measurements



However, subjectively what I can say is that it looked without a doubt the best that I have ever seen the 5000ES look to date



Personally, I consider the best projected images at CEDIA 2019 to be the JVC RS3000/NX9 and the SONY 5000ES, each with their respective new firmware updates; and I can't wait to evaluate the both of these in depth once the respective firmware updates are released





Ours was, unfortunately, a partially defective unit, depending a bit on when you saw it, it turned yellow’ish after some hours running... It also had some issues with the lens, it was basically loose and we had to attach it back on, but sharpness never really was perfect on that unit even still.

It actually looked quite good the initial hours of the day, I’d say the mapping from Lumagen really did seem to add pop and improved dynamics. How it compares to the new firmware I do not know, never had the time to look at the updated 5000 at the show.


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post #2365 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 09:38 AM
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The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread

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Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
Nigel already stated that by the way how Sony developed laser dimming and iris functionality, unfortunately doesn't improve dynamic contrast much it was around 20÷ boost, where ideally it should 300÷ boost. We will be testing it for sure once firmware is released.

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Yes I’m aware that, he posted that after I asked the question above. Cheers


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post #2366 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Mike is not a JVC fanboy, as you light lightheartedly took a shot at his statement of facts. Mike is a fanatic. Mike is fanatical about finding the best performing audio video equipment for himself and his customers. I for one really appreciate his objectivity and knowledge.

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Doesn’t he sell JVC ? I was under the impression he sold JVC.


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post #2367 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Mike is not a JVC fanboy, as you light lightheartedly took a shot at his statement of facts. Mike is a fanatic. Mike is fanatical about finding the best performing audio video equipment for himself and his customers. I for one really appreciate his objectivity and knowledge.

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Are you his dad?

Edited to add for clarity, that I too appreciate anyone's 'tuppeneth' (as long as it isn't churlish or rude) when it comes to getting the best out of these devices.
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post #2368 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
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Doesn’t he sell JVC ? I was under the impression he sold JVC.


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And me.

Just an observation, but anyone impartial who frequents/reads these forums will easily be able to see the reality of who tends to be biased and which manufacturer it is towards.

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post #2369 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
And me.



Just an observation, but anyone impartial who frequents/reads these forums will easily be able to see the reality of who tends to be biased and which manufacturer it is towards.


Definitely agree with you there.


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post #2370 of 2387 Old 09-17-2019, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Are you his dad?



Edited to add for clarity, that I too appreciate anyone's 'tuppeneth' (as long as it isn't churlish or rude) when it comes to getting the best out of these devices.
Another enlightening comment from a serial poster. Thanks for your witty reply but you don't know me so before you try to be a smart ass just don't.

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2019 , Jvc , projector , Projectors , Sony



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