The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread - Page 85 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2521 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cashuout View Post
I just want to make a suggestion. Arrow if you could make links in the title on the particular projectors where the review or stats begin. I'm trying to read on the NX9, I cant find where it begins. I'm not normally on the PC most reading through my Phone a work cough*. I end up losing my place while trying to read through. Just though it would help organize the discussion a little bit. Thanks
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
In this thread I will be evaluating and comparing the following incrementally over an extended period of time:

SONY 295/270ES (DONE)
SONY 695/570ES
SONY 885/760ES (DONE)
SONY 995/870ES
SONY 5000ES

JVC RS540/X7900 (DONE)
JVC RS1000/NX5/N5
JVC RS2000/NX7/N7
JVC RS3000/NX9
JVC RS4500/Z1
(DONE)
Done

However, you won't find my in-depth evaluation of the JVC RS3000/NX9 there, because I haven't done it yet

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Last edited by ARROW-AV; 10-06-2019 at 11:49 AM.
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post #2522 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post


Not out of training at all. We don't use the JVC Auotcalibration for review purposes because JVC doesn't even like us mentioning it. So all calibration is done strictly with the projector's controls. I did mention that they have external software (and I was surprised that JVC allowed it duding the fact check as they typically don't like it even mentioned).

As for seeing a NX9 with nearly 100,000:1 native I'd love to have that unit. I've measured A LOT of NX9's and haven't seen anything near that yet. The F-stop of the aperture on the new NX series is different than the older eShift models, which is why peak contrast doesn't get nearly as high as you close the apertures down. JVC had zero issues with my contrast numbers during the fact check, and obviously there will always be unit variance.
So what your saying is that JVC is well aware that many units dont deliver anywhere near specs? is that even legal?

It worry me a bit that a review have to be aproved by the manufacture, to have some real value a review should be unbiased and take the consumers standpoint, not the seller, or manufacture.

Whats the aproved tolerances on simple parameters like contrast and lightoutput.?
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post #2523 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Yes, here you see a calibrated D65 Rec 709 profile User 1 Light output 16Fl, 2,4 gamma Iris -13 lamp high. Minimum throw 110-inch screen.
Here 2 pictures one after 10 minutes and one after 60 minutes.
Gamma first picture 2,75
Gamma picture two 2.4
In the second pic, it tracks nicely too.
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post #2524 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Yes, here you see a calibrated D65 Rec 709 profile User 1 Light output 16Fl, 2,4 gamma Iris -13 lamp high. Minimum throw 110-inch screen.
Here 2 pictures one after 10 minutes and one after 60 minutes.
Gamma first picture 2,75
Gamma picture two 2.4
Is the NX9 much different to previous models in this respect?
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post #2525 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 12:48 PM
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If it’s using the same bulb I can’t see why else the warm up would be much different.
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post #2526 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
If it’s using the same bulb I can’t see why else the warm up would be much different.
Its not the same bulb, and they always had heatup correction, some of the older X modes it reset the heatup correction when you flipped mode, think they fixed that. Its verry possible it changes with firmware.
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post #2527 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ed1985 View Post
Its not the same bulb, and they always had heatup correction, some of the older X modes it reset the heatup correction when you flipped mode, think they fixed that. Its verry possible it changes with firmware.


The NX are the same bulb as the last 3 generations of eShift. Just the bulb housing is different.
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post #2528 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
The NX are the same bulb as the last 3 generations of eShift. Just the bulb housing is different.
Then the airflow is most likely different and will behave different, do they use the same lamp blower?

The SONY projectors i seen had much more accurate heatup correction, and would be almost spot on from cold to warm.
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post #2529 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I realize this wasn't directed at me, but:

  • Higher light output
  • Laser light engine (vs lamp)
  • Dynamic laser dimming (there are some advantages vs dynamic iris, such as response time)
  • Better lens and optics (the combination of both is better even though the lenses are essentially the same)
  • Better uniformity
  • Less streaking / smearing / ghosting / blooming
  • No bright corners
  • Higher 10%+ ADL contrast performance
  • Full fade to black

To name a few...

I suspect the processing is better with the 4500, rather than any differences in the lens.
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post #2530 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 01:16 PM
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[QUOTE=ed1985;58650956]So what your saying is that JVC is well aware that many units dont deliver anywhere near specs? is that even legal?

It worry me a bit that a review have to be aproved by the manufacture, to have some real value a review should be unbiased and take the consumers standpoint, not the seller, or manufacture.

Whats the aproved tolerances on simple parameters like contrast and lightoutput.?[/QUOTE]

What are they for Sony, Epson or any other manufacturer?
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post #2531 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I just wanted to mention this also.

For the NX9 don’t forget there are technically 2 other “controls” for light level and black floor.

Yes the main 2 are bulb mode and iris.

But you can also use the BT2020 filter to both lower the black floor further and also increase contrast.

A discrepancy between the contrast people are measuring at -15 or even at 0 iris may be that some have the filter on and some have the filter off.

Finally the projector zoom lens also makes a difference for both black floor and contrast.

If you want to be like JVC when they measure the native contrast of their projector for spec, you need to go iris -15, BT2020 filter On, and zoom lens at the farthest zoom (farthest away from the screen at a given screen size).

Also you can use the BT2020 filter on SDR. With autocal you can create a rec709F color profile that tracks rec709 but with the filter On.
Did a measurement with BT2020 filter only adjusted the 100% nothing else. Then Klein K10A against the projector.Minimum Zoom.

Lamp mode High full open iris. 40000:1

Lamp mode High Fully closed -15 147000:1

So I might have a good sample for shore.

With Rec709 without the filter.
Lamp mode High full open iris. 38000:1

Lamp mode High Fully closed -15 140000:1


Projectors JVC NX9 :) , JVC X500, JVC RS400, Cine9
Calibrator: Software: Calman Pro
Colorimeter: Klein K10A, Spectroradiometer: Jeti 1501
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post #2532 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I realize this wasn't directed at me, but:

  • Higher light output
  • Laser light engine (vs lamp)
  • Dynamic laser dimming (there are some advantages vs dynamic iris, such as response time)
  • Better lens and optics (the combination of both is better even though the lenses are essentially the same)
  • Better uniformity
  • Less streaking / smearing / ghosting / blooming
  • No bright corners
  • Higher 10%+ ADL contrast performance
  • Full fade to black

To name a few...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I suspect the processing is better with the 4500, rather than any differences in the lens.
I was referring to the combination of the lens plus optical block, where there are less internal reflections and light scatter which causes a greater incidence and magnitude of associated video artefacts with the RS3000/NX9 as compared with the RS4500/Z1

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post #2533 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Did a measurement with BT2020 filter only adjusted the 100% nothing else. Then Klein K10A against the projector.Minimum Zoom.

Lamp mode High full open iris. 40000:1

Lamp mode High Fully closed -15 147000:1

So I might have a good sample for sure.

With Rec709 without the filter.
Lamp mode High full open iris. 38000:1

Lamp mode High Fully closed -15 140000:1
I have just one thing to say to you with respect to having a JVC RS3000/NX9 which measures that level of performance...








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post #2534 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
The same applies to Sony, and probably other manufacturers. And other reviewers for that matter.

As for " many units dont deliver anywhere near specs? is that even legal? " - that could apply to most all projectors and published specs from every manufacturer over the last decade. It all depends on who is doing the measurements and how they are done. That's nothing new. Good luck with the class action lawsuit.
That is true but no excuse, why put false specs, or nr nobody will be able to confirm, why not just spec the NX9 as a 1500 lumen 50000:1 then it would actually be possible to use those nr to calculate a realistic screensize.

And its actually not that hard to measure light and contrast fairly accurate if you have a guideline for the settings, and a proper room. Every decent calibrator should be able to perform those.

Imagine you go pick up your new bed in IKEA, and the box say its 79" long, when you finished putting it together its only 70" long, will you say ok thats normal tolerances ill just live with that.?
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Last edited by ed1985; 10-06-2019 at 02:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by ed1985 View Post
That is true but no excuse, why put false specs, or nr nobody will be able to confirm, why not just spec the NX9 as a 1500 lumen 50000:1 then it would actually be possible to use those nr to calculate a realistic screensize.

And its actually not that hard to measure light and contrast fairly accurate if you have a guideline for the settings, and a proper room. Every decent calibrator should be able to perform those.

Imagine you go pick up your new bed in IKEA, and the box say its 79" long, when you finished putting it together its only 70" long, will you say ok thats normal tolerances ill just live with that.?
Your example is not a proper match up with the contrast and light output. Your example would match up with size of the projector, as in JVC saying it is 9.30" x 19.60" x 20.40". Yet it turns out to be 12" x 30" x 32". Maybe if you had used the Ikea bed said it had a weight rating of 700 pounds and yet it would only actually support 600 pounds.
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post #2536 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I have just one thing to say to you with respect to having a JVC RS3000/NX9 which measures that level of performance...








But I can't have it in min zoom. I use the absolutely max zoom. 110-inch screen.

So fully open in High lamp 28000:1 Fully open in Low 24000:1

Max closed in high 110000:1 Max in low lamp mode 98000:1
So holds specifications.

But to wait for 60 minutes to watch a movie is like having a CRT all over again.
I hope that the new firmware can fix this some like it was before. Because the V2.08 did something to my NX9, not in a positive way.

Autoiris don't work much now after the upgrade to V2.08, before up to 1000000:1 now 150000:1-400000:1. Might be like others measure now, but when you have all the time measured up to 1000000:1 its irritating to drop this much. And I see it in 0 ire.

But overall in my room and cinema, the NX9 will be much better than a Z1/RS4500. But I see the positive and the negative sides of both.

Projectors JVC NX9 :) , JVC X500, JVC RS400, Cine9
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Originally Posted by ed1985 View Post
That is true but no excuse, why put false specs, or nr nobody will be able to confirm, why not just spec the NX9 as a 1500 lumen 50000:1 then it would actually be possible to use those nr to calculate a realistic screensize.

And its actually not that hard to measure light and contrast fairly accurate if you have a guideline for the settings, and a proper room. Every decent calibrator should be able to perform those.

Imagine you go pick up your new bed in IKEA, and the box say its 79" long, when you finished putting it together its only 70" long, will you say ok thats normal tolerances ill just live with that.?
Hi, Ed. I know you were addressing Craig, but this reminds me of one of our friends who used to be on here who emphasized that what counts is what the projector looks like in person. I think that applies here too.

I can tell you that I'm a fan of all good video displays --from any brand. Often, I see contrast ratio numbers provided by various manufacturers and for different technologies, including DLPs, where the actual tested measurement is lower than the numbers specified.

I can appreciate your new bed hypothetical. But what about the method used by the manufacturer in measuring. I think that can be telling too. And, regardless, are these varying contrast numbers so prevalent in the industry that we're placed on constructive notice of their variance? For example, when we go to purchase a 2x4 from the lumber yard, we all know it's not going to really measure two by four inches, right?
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Maybe if you had used the Ikea bed said it had a weight rating of 700 pounds and yet it would only actually support 600 pounds.

Whoa! You must have really bulked up, Mike. That rating would hold the weight of about four people in my family.
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Hi, Ed. I know you were addressing Craig, but this reminds me of one of our friends who used to be on here who emphasized that what counts is what the projector looks like in person. I think that applies here too.

I can tell you that I'm a fan of all good video displays --from any brand. Often, I see contrast ratio numbers provided by various manufacturers and for different technologies, including DLPs, where the actual tested measurement is lower than the numbers specified.

I can appreciate your new bed hypothetical. But what about the method used by the manufacturer in measuring. I think that can be telling too. And, regardless, are these varying contrast numbers so prevalent in the industry that we're placed on constructive notice of their variance? For example, when we go to purchase a 2x4 from the lumber yard, we all know it's not going to really measure two by four inches, right?
Ok lets make another comparison then.
You and your brother love to race cars, you both order new cars same brand and model, 400hp, when you get the cars and you 2 hits the highway you just see your brother disapear out in the horizon, your flooring it and wonder whats that all about.. You get the car in the bench, and it only have 200hp, it still drives you from a to b, they look the same and have the same size, you payed the same.. How you feel now ?

Kind of the same i would feel if i got a NX9 with a 50000:1 contrast and DJ Dee got one with 140000:1, why not just buy a N5 and hope to get the good sample of that one with 50000:1 then.?

Light is a fairly well defined thing these days, you can build a hole factory calculate wich and how many lamps you need to have your desired light on the floor, but you cant buy a projector and know what light output you get on screen, i cant help think that these manufacture is calculating that most consumers have no clue and no tools to test that the product deliver to specs, passing units that is way to far off specs, we are not talking about +-10% tolerances here, more like +-50%

If you buy capasitors they will be rated something like -10% - +40% or whatever due to production dificulties, then you know what you can expect.
Would it be hard to spec contrast on the NX9 as 50000:1 -10% to +120% D65 measured from lens, if thats the tolerances they can produce.?

I sure like the image of a good JVC sample, but i dont like that its a lottery ticket.
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Originally Posted by ed1985 View Post
So what your saying is that JVC is well aware that many units dont deliver anywhere near specs? is that even legal?

It worry me a bit that a review have to be aproved by the manufacture, to have some real value a review should be unbiased and take the consumers standpoint, not the seller, or manufacture.

Whats the aproved tolerances on simple parameters like contrast and lightoutput.?
Welcome to the forums Ed...

Read the early months of this thread. Aug -> Dec. It will provide some insight into your observations.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...on-thread.html


The early months of this owners thread is also worth reviewing.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...rs-thread.html
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JVC have 4 models in the N series

N5 40000:1
N6 60000:1
N7 80000:1
NX9 100000:1

I would think it should be possible to test lamp engines and lenses before they decide wich model it fits for, and reserve only the best ones for the 9 series so it justify the huge price jump.
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post #2542 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ed1985 View Post

Don't think that qualify as a good excuse to lie or steal.

Is it legal for me to steal your car if someone before me did it.?

The moral in this marked is low, very low, and i'm surprised that everybody find it acceptable.
Speaking of car's, you think every Corvette, Mustang, Hellcat, Camaro see a dyno machine? Nope.....and those can be 100K plus !

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Originally Posted by ed1985 View Post
So what your saying is that JVC is well aware that many units don't deliver anywhere near specs? is that even legal?

It worry me a bit that a review have to be approved by the manufacture, to have some real value a review should be unbiased and take the consumers standpoint, not the seller, or manufacture.

Whats the approved tolerances on simple parameters like contrast and light output.?
Manufacturers typically spot check there products, they do not check every single unit they make, that is why every once in a while you will have DOA's out there.
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post #2543 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Hi, Ed. I know you were addressing Craig, but this reminds me of one of our friends who used to be on here who emphasized that what counts is what the projector looks like in person. I think that applies here too.

I can tell you that I'm a fan of all good video displays --from any brand. Often, I see contrast ratio numbers provided by various manufacturers and for different technologies, including DLPs, where the actual tested measurement is lower than the numbers specified.

I can appreciate your new bed hypothetical. But what about the method used by the manufacturer in measuring. I think that can be telling too. And, regardless, are these varying contrast numbers so prevalent in the industry that we're placed on constructive notice of their variance? For example, when we go to purchase a 2x4 from the lumber yard, we all know it's not going to really measure two by four inches, right?
Either " Ed " is really new to all this ( doubtful ) or just trolling ( likely ). Either way, I think the ignore feature will be coming in handy.
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post #2544 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ed1985 View Post
Ok lets make another comparison then.
You and your brother love to race cars, you both order new cars same brand and model, 400hp, when you get the cars and you 2 hits the highway you just see your brother disapear out in the horizon, your flooring it and wonder whats that all about.. You get the car in the bench, and it only have 200hp, it still drives you from a to b, they look the same and have the same size, you payed the same.. How you feel now ?

Kind of the same i would feel if i got a NX9 with a 50000:1 contrast and DJ Dee got one with 140000:1, why not just buy a N5 and hope to get the good sample of that one with 50000:1 then.?

Light is a fairly well defined thing these days, you can build a hole factory calculate wich and how many lamps you need to have your desired light on the floor, but you cant buy a projector and know what light output you get on screen, i cant help think that these manufacture is calculating that most consumers have no clue and no tools to test that the product deliver to specs, passing units that is way to far off specs, we are not talking about +-10% tolerances here, more like +-50%

If you buy capasitors they will be rated something like -10% - +40% or whatever due to production dificulties, then you know what you can expect.
Would it be hard to spec contrast on the NX9 as 50000:1 -10% to +120% D65 measured from lens, if thats the tolerances they can produce.?

I sure like the image of a good JVC sample, but i dont like that its a lottery ticket.

I understand what you're saying. I was saying that can be said of other brands. I think what you're saying is there shouldn't be such a gap in intra-brand variance.

I trust Kris' measurements and perhaps DJ has a unique sample? I really don't know what else to say.
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post #2545 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Either " Ed " is really new to all this ( doubtful ) or just trolling ( likely ). Either way, I think the ignore feature will be coming in handy.
I didn't mean to cut in your conversation with Ed, Craig.

P.S. When I said Mike bulked up, I was talking about weight-lifting. But geesh...who needs a 700 pound support.
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post #2546 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I understand what you're saying. I was saying that can be said of other brands. I think what you're saying is there shouldn't be such a gap in intra-brand variance.

I trust Kris' measurements and perhaps DJ has a unique sample? I really don't know what else to say.
I think the measurements posted from all parts is as accurate as need be, its not something anyone here can change, im pickng on the projector manufacture, and the way they spec these things, the toleances is compleetly out of controle.

What i can wonder is that pro calibrators and stores selling these products is defending this, and not fighting it, as they most likely is the only ones that could change the manufactures off the chart spec race.

Not that it will change the products, just put down to earth realistic specs easy to measure.

Think we all know how it is today, imagine in 20 years if this trend continues.

Getting all sad to see that wishing for a honest and realistic aproach to specs is concidered trolling.
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post #2547 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed1985 View Post
I think the measurements posted from all parts is as accurate as need be, its not something anyone here can change, im pickng on the projector manufacture, and the way they spec these things, the toleances is compleetly out of controle.

What i can wonder is that pro calibrators and stores selling these products is defending this, and not fighting it, as they most likely is the only ones that could change the manufactures off the chart spec race.

Not that it will change the products, just put down to earth realistic specs easy to measure.

Think we all know how it is today, imagine in 20 years if this trend continues.

Getting all sad to see that wishing for a honest and realistic aproach to specs is concidered trolling.
Of course, I too would like to see specs met all the time in every unit or at least for the most part and have only little to moderate variations. I guess while I wasn't defending it, I was accepting it. But the way my unit is, I see virtually no artifacting. I just wish it had the lens of my last projector, but that's a story for another day.
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post #2548 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Done

However, you won't find my in-depth evaluation of the JVC RS3000/NX9 there, because I haven't done it yet

Well..... that explains why I couldn’t find it.. :

Equipment:
Silver ticket 125" 2:35:1 - JVC-DLA-NX9 - Panamorph Paladin DCR - Lumagen Radiance Pro ( ordered ) - Denon X4400H - Oppo 203 - Apple TV 4K - I Pad controled Lighting /System ( harmony hub ) - Outlaw 5000 - Klispch 450C - 2x RP 280 - 2x RP 150 - 2x RP 240s Bi - 2x RP SW12 - PLUS 2x SVS PB2000 - 4x Polk RC80i in-ceiling [ 7.4.4 System ]
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post #2549 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
P.S. When I said Mike bulked up, I was talking about weight-lifting. But geesh...who needs a 700 pound support.

I think we were thinking static loading, Mike was thinking dynamic loading...
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post #2550 of 2994 Old 10-06-2019, 04:29 PM
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I have measured good samples and bad samples in the new N and RS series.
Also the Z1. That was not impressive. But did not have much time with it. It was shipped back to JVC.

I only had one chance to measure one NX9. Also, the only one here in Norway is in my cinema.

But I have "also" measured an N7 close to my NX9. In the same room and equipment. Same spot for my Klein K10A meter with a correct profile with my Jeti.
But the three N7 I have measured are quite different. All with the shortest throw, so worst for contrast measurements.

The best had almost 89000:1 with high lamp -15 and 43000:1 fully open iris.
The worst 46000:1 with high lamp -15 same settings. and fully open iris high lamp mode 18000:1
And the middle one 67000:1 at -15 high lamp mode. and fully open iris high lamp mode 26000:1

An RS2000 that a friend has around measure around 52000:1. and have ugly bright corners. and fully open iris high lamp mode 24000:1

I have measured many N5. Best one up to 45000:1 worst 27000:1 all with -15 high lamp mode.
And a well-known calibrator here in my country got perhaps a super sample for a customer, Had almost 50000:1 with full open iris.
Did I believe it NO, was it true YES.

You guys can also trust my measurements 100%, I also do control with a light meter if I smell something is fishy.
I have also done ALOT of studies on JVC projectors. I have owned them all over the last 5 years.
The best of them all was the RS600 that I had, then with on-off contrast.

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Projectors JVC NX9 :) , JVC X500, JVC RS400, Cine9
Calibrator: Software: Calman Pro
Colorimeter: Klein K10A, Spectroradiometer: Jeti 1501
Picture generator Muredio

Last edited by Dj Dee; 10-06-2019 at 04:33 PM.
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