The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread - Page 92 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2731 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
A 400 lumen difference, with both projectors set up the same way and equal age on the lamps?
Around the same lamp age 100-200 hours on lamp.

The different X5XXX I have tested and compared with a N5, N7, NX9. They measured higher. But I don't say all do...

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post #2732 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 11:05 AM
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The eShift series definitely measure on average brighter than the NX series.

I figured this had to do with the native 4K panels and the increased amount of pixel structure within them to hold 4x the pixels.

I also figured this had to do with the somewhat decreased contrast over the eShift series as well.
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post #2733 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Around the same lamp age 100-200 hours on lamp.

The different X5XXX I have tested and compared with a N5, N7, NX9. They measured higher. But I don't say all do...
Yes, I would expect to see some variance. But unless there was something else going on, like one lamp measuring high, I would not expect to see 400 lumens difference.
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post #2734 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by David Mathews View Post
looking forward to your results and thoughts!
The first impression is that I really like the way the projector does it now with HDR.
Need to calibrate the greyscale to perfection. Then have a closer look. For shore the HDR films I know really good, look better. More correct dynamics, and levels.
Also, feel that I got the Black level back on HDR movies. So far only positive things to say about the new firmware and this new feature.

Have the spider X here so will try out with some JVC autocal later, see how good that is. But really I don't want to do it before I get some gamma drop.

Don't know if I like the frame by frame, or the scene by scene in HDR best. Have to look some more. Fun to hear what other thinks after watching and evaluating.

This lifted up the NX9 even more. Will do that also on N5 and N7. Now for me is to take a test if it did something with the heat up Blue bump I had/have.
Looked some better when I started it up, but not measured, so just crossing my fingers.

The next test will be to change a bulb. Also fun to see if the Brightness go upp or down
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post #2735 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yes, I would expect to see some variance. But unless there was something else going on, like one lamp measuring high, I would not expect to see 400 lumens difference.
Totally agree with you, I was shocked when tested. Had to put opp the X5900 and a X5500 and on the N5 and the N7 and my Nx9 they "X5XXX" measured higher brightness uncalibrated. Max zoom, the same screen, and picture size. But the last N7 I had here was brighter than the X5XXX, also brighter than my NX9. Also, that N7 had extremely good contrast 43000:1 in full open D65 -15 was just 20000:1 less than my NX9 so over specifications.

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post #2736 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Totally agree with you, I was shocked when tested. Had to put opp the X5900 and a X5500 and on the N5 and the N7 and my Nx9 they "X5XXX" measured higher brightness uncalibrated. Max zoom, the same screen, and picture size. But the last N7 I had here was brighter than the X5XXX, also brighter than my NX9. Also, that N7 had extremely good contrast 43000:1 in full open D65 -15 was just 20000:1 less than my NX9 so over specifications.
It shouldn't surprise anyone really. For 5 and 7 series the lumens stayed the same but the screen area changed due to DCI spec panels. The 17:9 vs 16:9 panel means that unless you are using the full panel width you will have a bit over 5% drop in light for the new series.

As the 9 series now has longer throw for the same physical position you will also be getting a light loss there.

All together these mean there is likely no real-world light benefit for most customers of these units, and for many it is a light output downgrade. It does mean that anyone who is marginal for lighting up their screen size already with previous series should think carefully and consult with someone who understands the implications of the 17:9 panels for their system if they don't understand it themselves.

It is kind of irrelevant though for most new buyers as there isn't really anything else better out there, and if I'm honest I'd still swap my X7900 for a new N7 in a heartbeat if it were offered to me (I need to get some more value out of the X7900 before I consider an upgrade). The thought of getting rid of the annoying eShift mechanism and getting a bit better gamut coverage is very tempting.
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post #2737 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It shouldn't surprise anyone really. For 5 and 7 series the lumens stayed the same but the screen area changed due to DCI spec panels. The 17:9 vs 16:9 panel means that unless you are using the full panel width you will have a bit over 5% drop in light for the new series.

As the 9 series now has longer throw for the same physical position you will also be getting a light loss there.

All together these mean there is likely no real-world light benefit for most customers of these units, and for many it is a light output downgrade. It does mean that anyone who is marginal for lighting up their screen size already with previous series should think carefully and consult with someone who understands the implications of the 17:9 panels for their system if they don't understand it themselves.

It is kind of irrelevant though for most new buyers as there isn't really anything else better out there, and if I'm honest I'd still swap my X7900 for a new N7 in a heartbeat if it were offered to me (I need to get some more value out of the X7900 before I consider an upgrade). The thought of getting rid of the annoying eShift mechanism and getting a bit better gamut coverage is very tempting.
The 17:9 panel is a benefit for those of us using a screen 1.9:1 or wider and using installation modes rather than a lens. We've seen a measured 12% bump in brightness when showing scope material zoomed to the full panel (you are using ~13% more pixels here). No idea what percentage of us there are using wider screens, but with the prevalence of lens memory/installation modes coupled with the effort they put towards improving the feature it must not be insignificant.

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post #2738 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 12:49 PM
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The 17:9 panel is a benefit for those of us using a screen 1.9:1 or wider and using installation modes rather than a lens. We've seen a measured 12% bump in brightness when showing scope material zoomed to the full panel (you are using ~13% more pixels here). No idea what percentage of us there are using wider screens, but with the prevalence of lens memory/installation modes coupled with the effort they put towards improving the feature it must not be insignificant.
That size gain is only against the current series when used in 16:9 mode. Against the previous models the gains are much smaller - though it should still represent a small gain if:
A) you can limit yourself to wide ration projection and
B) you don't mind the close ratio scaling to expand out to the full panel width

Against the previous generation the gain for such wide projection setups is only around 6% because the "lumens per pixel" is higher on the previous gen.
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post #2739 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
That size gain is only against the current series when used in 16:9 mode. Against the previous models the gains are much smaller - though it should still represent a small gain if:
A) you can limit yourself to wide ration projection and
B) you don't mind the close ratio scaling to expand out to the full panel width

Against the previous generation the gain for such wide projection setups is only around 6% because the "lumens per pixel" is higher on the previous gen.
The lumens difference between the RSxxx vs RSxxxx (NX series) is usually about 100-200 lumens from what's being measured in the owners thread. So depending on where the bulb lottery lands this can mean that you are actually seeing more light output on the new generation with wider aspect material in the scenario I mention. Obviously 1.78:1 and 1.85:1 content isn't going to see a boost (but I use the iris to equalize brightness so this is non-issue in my case). Scaling to 17:9 is very minor and isn't noticeable.

Mainly just pointing out there are cases where the 17:9 panel can be advantageous with regards to light output. In a lot of cases the new series will take a slight lumen hit vs. the old as you correctly point out. In our particular case a lot of the film content we watch is in wider aspect ratios so the wider panel seems brighter on our scope screen than the RS520 it replaced.
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post #2740 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It shouldn't surprise anyone really. For 5 and 7 series the lumens stayed the same but the screen area changed due to DCI spec panels. The 17:9 vs 16:9 panel means that unless you are using the full panel width you will have a bit over 5% drop in light for the new series.

As the 9 series now has longer throw for the same physical position you will also be getting a light loss there.

All together these mean there is likely no real-world light benefit for most customers of these units, and for many it is a light output downgrade. It does mean that anyone who is marginal for lighting up their screen size already with previous series should think carefully and consult with someone who understands the implications of the 17:9 panels for their system if they don't understand it themselves.

It is kind of irrelevant though for most new buyers as there isn't really anything else better out there, and if I'm honest I'd still swap my X7900 for a new N7 in a heartbeat if it were offered to me (I need to get some more value out of the X7900 before I consider an upgrade). The thought of getting rid of the annoying eShift mechanism and getting a bit better gamut coverage is very tempting.

I would also swap, instantly... Like you say E-shift, not real 4K panels and so on. Better unit YES, even if it have some less light on some of the N models. This is just to say that light output can differ, and an X series can have more FL than an N series. I don't say every N series. But some that I have tested are like this. Nothing I can do about it.
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post #2741 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 03:57 PM
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I have never had that situation occur. If I did, I would address it then. Are you making up a scenario or one that actually occurred? Did the N7 measure low or was it a combination of the X5900 measuring high and the N7 measuring a little low?
The X5900 measuring low and the N7 measuring very low, none of them able to hit specs in any condition, and the X5900 beeing a 1800lumen vs the N7 beeing a 1900 lumen the N7 should at least be a brighter projector, and as seen on the chart posted multiple times JVC calculate the lightoutput on all models on a 16:9 screen, so not taking the extra 4K panel area into acount.

The discussion here i think is mostly pointing at the specs beeing useless, and JVC having huge veriations, wich i guess is well known and documented, if you get a great sample its very nice, but it is a lottery.
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post #2742 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 04:03 PM
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The X5900 measuring low and the N7 measuring very low, none of them able to hit specs in any condition, and the X5900 beeing a 1800lumen vs the N7 beeing a 1900 lumen the N7 should at least be a brighter projector, and as seen on the chart posted multiple times JVC calculate the lightoutput on all models on a 16:9 screen, so not taking the extra 4K panel area into acount.



The discussion here i think is mostly pointing at the specs beeing useless, and JVC having huge veriations, wich i guess is well known and documented, if you get a great sample its very nice, but it is a lottery.
You seem to really being taking JVC to task for the lumens they claim versus lumens tested. All manufacturers have a certain tolerance for fluctuation but you seem to be hyper focused on JVC. Almost half of your posts have some derivative of this same theme. We get your stance. This is not the complain about JVC lumens thread. Feel free to start that thread. If you could get back on the topic of this thread that would be outstanding. Personally it definitely feels you have an agenda.

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post #2743 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 04:16 PM
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You seem to really being taking JVC to task for the lumens they claim versus lumens tested. All manufacturers have a certain tolerance for fluctuation but you seem to be hyper focused on JVC. Almost half of your posts have some derivative of this same theme. We get your stance. This is not the complain about JVC lumens thread. Feel free to start that thread. If you could get back on the topic of this thread that would be outstanding. Personally it definitely feels you have an agenda.

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Maybe thats to do with that i find my SONY 4K projector so bad that i dont even want to get started on that one, and i really wish to find a good sample of a N7 that delivers something near specs.

Maybe you could specify the JVC tolerances, i cant find them in the specs, so the way i read the specs contrast and light output is minimum specs as nothing else is stated.

As long as im asked questions, and the debate is going on ill think its ok to participate.

Hope we all have a agenda, mine is to get the best projector possible for my budget, whats yours?
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post #2744 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 04:40 PM
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Maybe thats to do with that i find my SONY 4K projector so bad that i dont even want to get started on that one, and i really wish to find a good sample of a N7 that delivers something near specs.



Maybe you could specify the JVC tolerances, i cant find them in the specs, so the way i read the specs contrast and light output is minimum specs as nothing else is stated.



As long as im asked questions, and the debate is going on ill think its ok to participate.



Hope we all have a agenda, mine is to get the best projector possible for my budget, whats yours?
Since you are making generalizations about the JVC lumens for the N7, how many N7 projectors have you personally measured to be making these statements? My agenda is to figure out why you keep beating a dead horse. Once I identify a problem I look for a solution rather restating the problem 100 different ways . If I can't find a solution than I know I have found my solution. The solution would be to move on to problems I can solve at that point. What Sony projector do you own since this thread is supposed to be about comparing 2019 Sony and JVC projectors? Just for a change of pace why don't you inform us of the problems as you see them with Sony projectors.

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post #2745 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ed1985 View Post
Maybe they have a secret hole in the lamp engine where they can insert a probe, and claim the specs is existing somewhere inside the projector.



So your NX5 have 400 lumen more than Dj Dee NX9, im sure he is super happy to hear that lol.



Maybe we should collect funds to donate JVC some reference equipment for QC.



If JVC were a straight company they would just make a public statement explaining the exact conditions for how to check that the projectors deliver to specs, but it seems JVC is still the same company they were 8 yers ago when i bought the RS50, impossible to get any information at all, specially if it was related to specs.



Ill just keep sending units back that done deliver.
Maybe they have a secret hole in the lamp engine where they can insert a probe, and claim the specs is existing somewhere inside the projector.
@ed1985
This is where you just begin to lose all credibility. Not that anyone here is giving you much anyway. Arrow AV backs up his reviews with data that he posts. Which is why he is respected and revered . Admired. Would you please post your data?

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post #2747 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 05:21 PM
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LOL. Sorry just tired of @ed1985 and his personal agenda of bashing JVC. I don't own Sony or JVC. I am just hear to learn and prepare to buy my next projector. Which will probably be a JVC.

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My agenda is to just enjoy what I have whether it meets the quoted spec or not.
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post #2749 of 2886 Old 10-09-2019, 07:58 PM
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My agenda is to just enjoy what I have whether it meets the quoted spec or not.
As it should be for all of us who enjoy watching movies . Pretty sure my eyes are no longer up to their original quoted specs either. LOL.

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.... Pretty sure my eyes are no longer up to their original quoted specs either. LOL.
Great point, and for those of us embracing such vicissitudes of life, absolute best resolution might loose its place among HT priorities.

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Someone buys a NX9 based on specs, 2200Lumen add a tolerance of 300 lumen for calibration, so figure he is on the safe side thinking he can shoot 1900 lumen.

......
He will most likely ende up with 1500 lumen calibrated wich is 19fl, to the point that the NX9 dont serve a purpose, and a N5 or N7 would be a better solution, specially if you get a sample with good native panel contrast.


.

I am not following. How does a calibrated NX9 at 1900 lumens drop to 1500 lumens ? Even running in high lamp the bulb will not dim that much for a few thousand hours....
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post #2752 of 2886 Old 10-10-2019, 12:35 AM
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A friend of mine had a NX9 and when I took my NX5 over to his place I set them both up in the same position and same settings and they measured within 0.1 fL of each other. Just another data point.



300 lumens is easily within bulb variation from what I understand.


That’s it. I’m getting a laser projector ! This is way too unpredictable !
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post #2753 of 2886 Old 10-10-2019, 12:44 AM
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That’s it. I’m getting a laser projector ! This is way too unpredictable !
Go Laser...and never go back!
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post #2754 of 2886 Old 10-10-2019, 05:33 AM
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Maybe they have a secret hole in the lamp engine where they can insert a probe, and claim the specs is existing somewhere inside the projector.
@ed1985
This is where you just begin to lose all credibility. Not that anyone here is giving you much anyway. Arrow AV backs up his reviews with data that he posts. Which is why he is respected and revered . Admired. Would you please post your data?

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If you search on the UK forum that discusses AV look up a user called 'Stridsvogen' He has quite a lot of calibration data on various projector threads. Same typos and attitude, so I'm 100% certain it's the same guy, but might have the information you're after.

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post #2755 of 2886 Old 10-10-2019, 05:36 AM
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If you search on the UK forum that discusses AV look up a user called 'Stridsvogen' He has quite a lot of calibration data on various projector threads. Same typos and attitude, so I'm 100% certain it's the same guy, but might have the information you're after.
Thank you @Kelvin1965S . I appreciate the information.

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post #2756 of 2886 Old 10-10-2019, 06:40 AM
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A friend of mine had a NX9 and when I took my NX5 over to his place I set them both up in the same position and same settings and they measured within 0.1 fL of each other. Just another data point.

300 lumens is easily within bulb variation from what I understand.
So what did you think of the over all difference, I am sure you guys where comparing for a while?
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post #2757 of 2886 Old 10-10-2019, 07:01 AM
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So what did you think of the over all difference, I am sure you guys where comparing for a while?
Great question . Inquiring minds want to know.

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post #2758 of 2886 Old 10-10-2019, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by blake View Post
I am not following. How does a calibrated NX9 at 1900 lumens drop to 1500 lumens ? Even running in high lamp the bulb will not dim that much for a few thousand hours....
@blake Oh yes it will , with exception to a few unicorns , the vast majority lose anywhere from 15-20% within 500 hours. Unless lamp manufacturers have changed something significantly in the last year, expect the biggest losses up to 1000 hours. After a lamp looses the initial brightness, say after 500 hours , then the curve flattens, drops slowly to half brightness around 5000 hours .


So if you start at 1900lumens, drop to 1500 hours that represents a near exact 20% drop, I'd say it's both typical and right on track when running high lamp . So while everyone may have slight variances to this , truth is the majority are in this range. What is well known is this : the lamp degrades most in the first 500 hours, using high lamp setting speeds up the process and high on off cycles also contribute to a shorter life . Since most are actually using their projector for the largest screen possible, to achieve the best for HDR and 3D they run in high mode nearly all the time .



I ran my VW675 and RS600, mostly on high, for 500 hours side by side a/b testing, both lost 15% before 200 hours after that it started to flatten out, by 500 hours I was down 20% , I'd say nearly 25% around 1000 hours. This is well documented in forums around the globe . I changed my lamps around 600 hours, for my needs this was every two years, it was the only way to keep a decent amount of lumens for a larger screen . If you want stable light that does not degrade quickly a laser is the only option otherwise you just keep changing lamps or even better, use a screen size appropriate for the 80% lumens range where the lamp has degraded, you'll get by for a few years easily .



A 2000 lumen lamp and 2000 lumen laser are different beasts even from the get go right out of the box. The laser will appear brighter , especially in color saturation and pop. There is nothing wrong with a lamp based projector at all, problem is they all degrade, we really need to consider brightness and screen choices based on the 80% range . Marketing tells us it's ok to consider the projector at new values and that is where the consumer is misled . I personally compensated with smaller screen, increased gain and the addition of a anamorphic lens, I still had to change lamps around 600 hours otherwise the image was just unacceptable . A laser light engine solves this issue, mitigates the often need calibrations too, a double bonus.
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post #2759 of 2886 Old 10-10-2019, 07:35 AM
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I've wrote about the differences before. I should see if I can find that post.

The biggest differences to me was obviously the lens. I have also seen an NX7 many times as another friend has one of those.

The NX5 and NX7 look the same sharpness wise which overall is very good (compared to the previous eShift and compared to the <35K Sonys). The NX9 sharpness is another step up and is what I would call excellent both in center sharpness as well as uniformity to the corners.

The BT2020 filter is also definitely a nice extra feature of the 7 and 9 if you have the brightness to use it. Both of the people with the 7 and 9 don't use the filter as they have 172" diagonal 16:9 0.94 gain AT screens, so they need all the brightness they can get. In HDR content the filter can make a small but noticeable difference mostly in the reds and sometimes greens. Blues should be the same with or without the filter.

As far as contrast, I want to say the NX9 looked slightly better. However, all 3 units were only ever being run with wide open iris and no Auto DI where the contrast isn't all that much different.

On average with wide open iris and no BT2020 filter, we are talking like 20K:1 on the NX5, 25K-30K:1 on the NX7 and 30K-35K:1 on the NX9.

I see my friend's NX7 all the time and of course see my NX5 all the time. I wouldn't really say they look much different when both are wide open iris and no BT2020 filter which is just how I'm always viewing them due to our setups.

The NX9 as I said did seem to have more contrast, but that could also be due to the improved lens sharpness. Sometimes people attribute sharpness to contrast a bit.


I am unfortunately one of those who see big artifacts with the Auto DI as it my NX7 owner friend. Both the NX5 and NX7 to us are lots of yellowing as well as highlight clipping when using the DI, especially when the DI range is set to start at fully open. So both of us don't use the iris.

On the NX9 I did see the yellowing, but in my limited use of it I want to say the highlight clipping was not present or was significantly less on the NX9 for some reason. So on the NX9 perhaps the iris is somewhat more usable even for people like my friend and I who are really bothered by and too easily see these sorts of artifacts.

All of us are madVR users FWIW and none of us use A-lenses.

I don't know if the NX9 is really worth the large cost increase. I feel like you can almost get a NX7 plus an A-lens for the same price as the NX9. If that's the case I think I would choose the NX7+lens.
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post #2760 of 2886 Old 10-10-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Go Laser...and never go back!
You got that right. Can't wait to watch Blade Runner 2049 with a friend that's never seen it tonight ! Should look spectacular with the newest Lumagen DTM firmware !
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