The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread - Page 99 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2941 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 09:22 AM
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If your open it in google chrome you should get a pop up asking if you would like to translate it.
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How does one go about translating such a review?
Use Bing or Google Translator webpages.

Enter the URL I gave and click on the URL generated in the translated box. Simples!

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post #2942 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 09:36 AM
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Watching this video it seems the JVC N series also has the gamma droop typical on the e-shift X series that I mentioned earlier . The projectors were calibrated with other known professional in attendance. Ekki came to this original determination with the X series after going through hundreds of projectors, his reports are based on massive amounts of tests conducted as part of his business ,it's not based on a simple good sample. This is the guy that has been that has uncovered and posted nearly every relevant issue for all projectors . He shows pros and cons for all, regardless of manufacturer doesn't discriminate.
May be true but haven't seen this in my RS2000. The good news is that it is very easy to fix in about 30MN max with a $169 meter. Checking mine again this weekend. Glad they give us the easy tools to keep the projector at the top of their game including the new firmware.

Have no idea with the new Sony's, do they have the same thing as autocal on the JVC? My last Sony years ago did not have anything easy like that. I had to do manual calibration every year to 18 months.
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post #2943 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 09:59 AM
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May be true but haven't seen this in my RS2000. The good news is that it is very easy to fix in about 30MN max with a $169 meter. Checking mine again this weekend. Glad they give us the easy tools to keep the projector at the top of their game including the new firmware.

Have no idea with the new Sony's, do they have the same thing as autocal on the JVC? My last Sony years ago did not have anything easy like that. I had to do manual calibration every year to 18 months.
So, regardless of ease of use, by JVC having an 'autocal' feature, does it not mean they obviously expect it to be needed regularly?

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post #2944 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 10:57 AM
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So, regardless of ease of use, by JVC having an 'autocal' feature, does it not mean they obviously expect it to be needed regularly?
Are you implying that Sony is calibrate it once and then never have too?? I don't think that is the case. If Sony does not have this feature then most people need to pay a professional calibrator each time. How often to you calibrate your Sony?

If this was a big issue I am sure you would hear a lot of bitching in the JVC owners thread. I haven't owned a projector from Sony, Optoma, Epson, JVC that hasn't needed touch-up every 400-1000 hours and some of those others needed it much more often than I have seen with my JVC which so far is the easiest to get it back on track.

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post #2945 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 11:14 AM
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Are you implying that Sony is calibrate it once and then never have too?? I don't think that is the case. If Sony does not have this feature then most people need to pay a professional calibrator each time. How often to you calibrate your Sony?

If this was a big issue I am sure you would hear a lot of bitching in the JVC owners thread. I haven't owned a projector from Sony, Optoma, Epson, JVC that hasn't needed touch-up every 400-1000 hours and some of those others needed it much more often than I have seen with my JVC which so far is the easiest to get it back on track.
Not at all.
In my experience tools provided to do regular/constant adjustment, are there because they are needed.

I had my laser device calibrated once and not had a need to do so again.

Indeed, all these devices need some form of attention at different points throughout their working lives. People on here are going to be more stringent in that aspect than most of course.
I do like that JVC have made it easy to do though, however often it is needed.
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post #2946 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Not at all.
In my experience tools provided to do regular/constant adjustment, are there because they are needed.

I had my laser device calibrated once and not had a need to do so again.

Indeed, all these devices need some form of attention at different points throughout their working lives. People on here are going to be more stringent in that aspect than most of course.
I do like that JVC have made it easy to do though, however often it is needed.
It's not like the gamma keeps drooping. That would be rediculous.

I have calibrated a handful of JVCs from throughout the last 4 year models and with varying amounts of usage They were all between 2.0 and 2.2 gamma when the gamma was set to 2.2.

Yes my NX5 even after just 100 hours was showing a gamma of about 2.1 when set to 2.2. But my friend's RS600 who had run 3 bulbs and over 6000 hours through it was at 2.0 gamma when set to 2.2.

JVC droops at some point by 0.1 to 0.2 gamma max and that's that. When it's drooped it always looked flat still, so you could just set your gamma to 2.3 or 2.4 to compensate as well if you didn't want to or couldn't calibrate it.

FWIW every Sony that I have calibrated has its gamma well under 2.0 when set to 2.2. They ranged from 1.6 to 1.8 when set to 2.2 Not sure why, but it was what it was. I used Sony ImageDirector to fix it, but it's a manual process.

All the Epsons and my old Panasonic with Epson LCD panels also showed gamma droop over time. So far the JVC have showed the least amount of gamma droop in my experience and they have a simple to use automatic calibration software to correct it with an inexpensive meter as well. That's a double win in my book and in my experience.

All my friends with their Sonys I had to come calibrate them manually with ImageDirector, something that is significantly more complicated than autocal.

All projectors need re-calibrations over time, just ask any pro calibrator who does this for a living.
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post #2947 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Not at all.
In my experience tools provided to do regular/constant adjustment, are there because they are needed.

I had my laser device calibrated once and not had a need to do so again.

Indeed, all these devices need some form of attention at different points throughout their working lives. People on here are going to be more stringent in that aspect than most of course.
I do like that JVC have made it easy to do though, however often it is needed.
Kris Deering said that the laser projectors drift just about as much as the lamp based projectors. He determined this, after going back for a second and third calibrations on the various laser projectors.
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post #2948 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 12:51 PM
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This was my RS3000 after ~130 hours, set for 2.4. Cured with AutoCal.

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post #2949 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 02:35 PM
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Kris Deering said that the laser projectors drift just about as much as the lamp based projectors. He determined this, after going back for a second and third calibrations on the various laser projectors.
I would venture the argument that maybe those units probably had other issues that many of them had out of the box perhaps?
Anyway I did say that all of these devices would need some attention at different points of their life. I can't imagine anything out there not needing to be recalibrated at some point.

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post #2950 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 02:38 PM
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I would venture the argument that maybe those units probably had other issues that many of them had out of the box perhaps?
Anyway I did say that all of these devices would need some attention at different points of their life. I can't imagine anything out there not needing to be recalibrated at some point.
These were repeat calibrations by the same person, so he had the original reports. Kris said it looks like the shift/drift is in the panels.
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post #2951 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 02:52 PM
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Yes, panel age seems unpreventable especially with LCoS technology. Also, measuring laser requires an ultra high end meter if I recall. I remember some guys with LS10000s claiming no drift after 1000 hours, but they were using i1pros which are insufficient for laser calibration. I know Jeff Meier noted drift in one using a high end meter.
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post #2952 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
This was my RS3000 after ~130 hours, set for 2.4. Cured with AutoCal.
Hi, are you certain the contrast setting wasn't off a click or 2? I have seen this before where there is a steep gamma drop at 90IRE and goes relatively flat once corrected.
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post #2953 of 2987 Old 11-21-2019, 09:42 PM
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Hi, are you certain the contrast setting wasn't off a click or 2? I have seen this before where there is a steep gamma drop at 90IRE and goes relatively flat once corrected.
Yes, contrast at zero and (maybe oddly) measured perfect in Calman's 90-108% ramp, clipping at 100% (16-235 levels). The 30% level had a +1 on red, which is what killed the contrast measurement, but the overall curve was the same even when that was fixed. I just didn't screen grab that. I've since had Kris Deering over, and he didn't end up changing my contrast setting.

Autocal fixed it, just interesting at such droop after such low hours. Also, at min throw, iris open, all we could eek out was 20k:1. Way less than the 27k:1 some have reported with the RS2000, though that was off my v6 screen and not the lens so may not be apples to apples.

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post #2954 of 2987 Old 11-22-2019, 01:38 AM
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IME, it is not laser vs. lamp, but more DLP vs. LCOS.
It is also age related, the older the LCOS projector, the less it will drift, it drifts for years and years but eventually it almost stops.

I have DLP projectors that are exactly identical after replacing the lamp (within 1% calibration).
You don't really need to re-calibrate a LASER DLP projector much, if at all, based on the DLP Lasers I've seen.

As far as older JVC's drifting, well at first the entire gamma droops a bit, but then the issue starts to only droop around 70-90 IRE (70 mainly if I recall). The dropping is always there for a few thousand hours, then starts to smooth out. These LCOS panels are extremely reliable though, they can last 35,000 hours no problem, with 10,000+ easily being average. There is some contrast loss even on JVC's, but it's very minimal compared to Sony's panels (which I still wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole).

There might be exceptions, but shouldn't really have to re-calibrate a LASER DLP much, if at all.
Of course there is going to be some variance, but depends how picky you are.

Obsessing over calibration is a bit silly when it comes to color accuracy, more important is gamma accuracy unless the color is like way off.

Older JVC's definitely had the worst gamma droop of any projector I've had, but not sure about models from the past 3 or so years.
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post #2955 of 2987 Old 11-22-2019, 06:51 AM
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These were repeat calibrations by the same person, so he had the original reports. Kris said it looks like the shift/drift is in the panels.
Interesting. Maybe they should go back to making the stuff in Japan and then assembling it there as well. Instead of making it in Japan, shipping to China and building it there.

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post #2956 of 2987 Old 11-22-2019, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Interesting. Maybe they should go back to making the stuff in Japan and then assembling it there as well. Instead of making it in Japan, shipping to China and building it there.
They probably would, if we were willing to pay twice as much.
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post #2957 of 2987 Old 11-22-2019, 08:17 AM
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Well, a lot of stuff is being finalized and assembled in Mexico these days, but depends what it is.
Almost all TV's and larger electronics are finalized in Mexico, but you rarely see the "Made in Mexico" sticker.
The Chinese ship these partially assembled kits in crates to Mexico, then Mexican factories usually finish it off.

Most of the companies don't mention Mexico, because as long as some of the process is done in China, they can legally not mention it (loophole).
So you never really know for sure, except when your projector comes out smelling like a Taco.
It's a joint effort between Mexico and China.

Even my car was assembled in Mexico, and 36k miles and no problems so far, but I'm not counting on making it to 100k without issues.
Not because Mexico is bad at assembling things, but because the Chinese don't write very good instructions
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post #2958 of 2987 Old 11-22-2019, 09:11 AM
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Chad wrote no review on the RS2000 / NX7 because he felt it would be a re-write of the RS3000 / NX9 review.
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post #2959 of 2987 Old 11-24-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
This was my RS3000 after ~130 hours, set for 2.4. Cured with AutoCal.

[/QUOTE]


This is nearly the exact same results I had with my RS600, it was around 1.9 at the 150 hour mark and this is what Ekki had reported after testing well over 100 units . I did not mention this as a negative towards the JVC product , that was not my reason . A few members have been posting Sony as having gamma drift and also adding "gamma is not correctable", that false remark is intentional and has been used quite a lot by those on a mission . Sony does have gamma drift, which I consider typical and the remark posted often that," it is not correctable" falsely leads many believe this is true . Negative marketing is very pervasive here on this forum, the reasons are many. I easily corrected the RS600 with the JVC software, the lamp dimming and color shift required adjustment anyway, no biggie . Likewise I corrected the VW675 I had at the very same time, again the lamp dimming necessitated the correction , typical , especially after the first 200 hours or so . Both dimmed nearly 15% on the lamp , both required a tune up. Once these two were calibrated appropriately they produced fantastic images that for the most part were hard to distinguish for 90% of content. Each has characteristics that differentiate slightly between the two , the differences are much less than similarities I often confused the two during my a/b testing . It's up to the individual to know what they like and make their choice , not have biased remarks influence their decision making process.


When someone tries to portray one as superior, it's usually a fanboy or salesmen and that process is misleading to the end user trying to make a decision . We all know the ghosts of the past and we all know the various gremlins ALL these projectors possess, so bringing up issues with one and conveniently forgetting to mention the same or similar issues of others is deliberate , the vast majority of well informed enthusiasts here certainly knows why.
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post #2960 of 2987 Old 11-24-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
[A few members have been posting Sony as having gamma drift and also adding "gamma is not correctable", that false remark is intentional and has been used quite a lot by those on a mission . Sony does have gamma drift, which I consider typical and the remark posted often that," it is not correctable" falsely leads many believe this is true.
You seem to know a lot about the Sony setup, can you please let me know:
Do you need to use Image Director or other utility on the Sony units to correct it, or are there sufficient controls in the product UI to correct the drift?
If you need to use a utility, is it generally & freely available from Sony, or do you have to rely on the benevolence of a dealer or certified calibrator to get hold of it?
Thanks!
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post #2961 of 2987 Old 11-24-2019, 01:10 PM
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This is nearly the exact same results I had with my RS600, it was around 1.9 at the 150 hour mark and this is what Ekki had reported after testing well over 100 units . I did not mention this as a negative towards the JVC product , that was not my reason . A few members have been posting Sony as having gamma drift and also adding "gamma is not correctable", that false remark is intentional and has been used quite a lot by those on a mission . Sony does have gamma drift, which I consider typical and the remark posted often that," it is not correctable" falsely leads many believe this is true . Negative marketing is very pervasive here on this forum, the reasons are many.
People are just tired of getting burned. Most TV's you just set them up and they just work for years and years, with projectors there are so many more issues. Epson with the failing power supplies and dust blobs, Sony's with the contrast degradation, it's not like they were isolated cases, there were hundreds of people with the issues, if not thousands on the Epsons. So don't agree it's negative marketing, it's just people fed up. Based on what we know, it's not completely fixed, but may take a lot longer on some models to appear than some past models. If you have unlimited money to keep buying new projectors, then it doesn't matter, just buy whatever and throw it away later, because some of these projectors are throw-aways almost.

These are not small issues or about fanboyism at all, these are about people buying $5000 to $25,000 units with massive defects, a similar defect as to why Sony already lost a class action lawsuit in the past relating to other QC issues. Given the poor history of Sony's LCOS panels, and the troublesome past of Epson's QC issues, it's not fanboyism.

Although JVC did have some issues of their own as well, the difference is JVC's issues didn't devalue your projector by 95% or make it not turn on. Sure, a few people have had severe issues with JVC, but it was far from the norm. In the Epson threads, like every few posts it's another dust blob or failing power supply (it's literally almost the norm), or people on their 4th refurb attempt. Not saying no-one should ever buy an Epson (that's their decision), as you can get some really good deals, but it's definitely not the right choice if they are betting on longevity.

I can tell you from experience, JVC's can last a very very very long time (and with zero dust blobs or power issues), whereas I wouldn't put that bet on an Epson or Sony as much, especially Epson. Maybe the newer Epsons are better, who knows.

I can buy some Sony's on Ebay that used to sell for over $8000+ for almost nothing because of contrast degradation where the seller admitted the contrast was probably 300:1 or that the panel looked burned out. They don't pop up commonly, but I've seen a few, and if you watched Ebay close enough, you'd have seen it as well. I'm sure more common is sellers trying to sell them with bad contrast and not telling you they are bad. Per Ebay, the # of used Epsons sellers were selling just for parts was getting ridiculous at one point, there was almost no other projector that had so many broken units being sold for parts that I know of. Heck, there were more Epsons being sold for parts on Ebay at one point than I saw working Epsons (geeze).

If you buy old Sony's on Ebay, many of them are going to measure sub 2500:1 contrast levels, you'd better off buying a newer 4k DLP for less.

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post #2962 of 2987 Old 11-24-2019, 01:45 PM
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I don't know, people are just tired of getting burned. Most TV's you just set them up and they just work for years and years, with projectors there are so many more issues. Epson with the failing power supplies and dust blobs, Sony's with the contrast degradation, it's not like they were isolated cases, there were hundreds of people with the issues, if not thousands on the Epsons. So don't agree it's negative marketing, it's just people fed up. Based on what I know, it's not fixed, but may take longer on some models to appear than some past models, but not fixed from what I have heard anyhow. If you have unlimited money to keep buying new projectors, then it doesn't matter, just buy whatever and throw it away later, because some of these projectors are throw aways almost.

These are not small issues or about fanboyism at all, these are about people buying $5000 to $25,000 units with massive defects, a similar defect as to why Sony already lost a class action lawsuit in the past relating to other QC issues. Given the poor history of Sony's LCOS panels, and the troublesome past of Epson's QC issues, it's not fanboyism. This is the same price range as used cars. Imagine buying a car for $8000 for your kid, and then it breaking and losing the money. Then if someone never wants to buy that car again they get called a Fan Boy of other models (I don't think so, it's called left a bad sour taste, not fanboyism).

Although JVC did have some issues of their own as well, the difference is JVC's issues didn't devalue your projector by 95% or make it not turn on. Sure, a few people have had severe issues with JVC, but it was far from the norm. In the Epson 5050 thread, like every few posts it's another dust blob or failing power supply (it's literally almost the norm), or people on their 4th refurb attempt. Not saying no-one should ever buy an Epson (that's their decision), as you can get some really good deals, but it's definitely not the right choice if they are betting on longevity.

I can tell you from experience, JVC's can last a very very very long time (and with zero dust blobs or power issues), whereas I wouldn't put that bet on an Epson or Sony as much, especially Epson. Maybe the newer Epsons are better, who knows.

I can buy some Sony's on Ebay that used to sell for over $8000+ for almost nothing because of contrast degradation where the seller admitted the contrast was probably 300:1 or that the panel looked burned out. They don't pop up commonly, but I've seen a few, if you watched Ebay close enough, you'd have seen it as well. I'm sure more common is sellers trying to sell them with bad contrast and not telling you they are bad. Per Ebay, the # of used Epsons sellers were selling just for parts was getting ridiculous at one point, there was almost no other projector that had so many broken units being sold for parts that I know of. Heck, there were more Epsons being sold for parts on Ebay at one point than I saw working Epsons (geeze).

If you buy old Sony's on Ebay, many of them are going to measure sub 2500:1 contrast levels, you'd better off buying a newer 4k DLP for less.
Yea I was thinking about this the other day. Obviously that got started due to my DI issues on my RS540. But I've had about half a dozen projectors over the years and I think all but maybe 2 had issues. OTOH I have a surplus of working TV's due to none of them failing so far.

That said, I can't go back to a TV. Just have to bare the cost and hassles. Heck, I've been toying with buying either an N5 or N7 and then sending my RS540 in eventually. Use it as my "2nd tier projector" to replace my 5030UB.
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post #2963 of 2987 Old 12-01-2019, 07:48 AM
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Any news of when the N5 results will be up. Cant wait to see how it scores for 3D.
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post #2964 of 2987 Old 12-04-2019, 01:08 PM
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Use Bing or Google Translator webpages.

Enter the URL I gave and click on the URL generated in the translated box. Simples!
Great job solved lots question marks for me.
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post #2965 of 2987 Old 12-04-2019, 01:13 PM
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As to contrast it seems jvc is good with dark scenes while sony better generally. Could we say so?
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post #2966 of 2987 Old 12-04-2019, 02:15 PM
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As to contrast it seems jvc is good with dark scenes while sony better generally. Could we say so?
@baristie

You must be new around these parts . . .
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post #2967 of 2987 Old 12-04-2019, 04:35 PM
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You seem to know a lot about the Sony setup, can you please let me know:
Do you need to use Image Director or other utility on the Sony units to correct it, or are there sufficient controls in the product UI to correct the drift?
If you need to use a utility, is it generally & freely available from Sony, or do you have to rely on the benevolence of a dealer or certified calibrator to get hold of it?
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I’m confused.

I calibrated a few Sony’s and I used the freely available imagedirector software to do it.

The 1023 point RBG gamma curve editor allowed me to perfectly dial in the white balance and gamma.
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@baristie

You must be new around these parts . . .

yes quite new
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post #2970 of 2987 Old 12-05-2019, 03:05 AM
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I’m confused.

I calibrated a few Sony’s and I used the freely available imagedirector software to do it.

The 1023 point RBG gamma curve editor allowed me to perfectly dial in the white balance and gamma.
You definitely could not get it when I had a Sony 300ES. You had to ask a dealer, I asked Sony, and didnt get it.

Thus, I had incorrectable gamma droop.

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