The BENQ HT9060 & LK990 In-Depth Reviews & Comparison Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 950 Old 02-13-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
@bobof any suggestions as to how one might go about objectively measuring the severity/magnitude of the RAINBOW EFFECT with respect to relevant projectors?

Put a picture like this up on screen, keep your head static, then move your eyes to look at different areas of your screen. See if you notice any RGB rainbow trails in the picture.

I had a Sharp z12k back in the day and only noticed RBE rarely, almost never really. I don't know what happened with its successor, the z20k, but it was RBE city. I even tried 2 different units. It killed DLP for me, but I have hope for the 970/990.



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post #32 of 950 Old 02-13-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
@bobof any suggestions as to how one might go about objectively measuring the severity/magnitude of the RAINBOW EFFECT with respect to relevant projectors?

To be scientific, the test needs to be consistent, and I think my method below offers a possible solution to the consistency issue.

I'd have to experiment, but I would think a camera panning across the image with vertical white lines would be ideal. To keep the experiment consistent, I would use a mirror mounted on a turntable that can maintain a constant speed. (A record player would probably work, if you have a cheap one lying around that you don't mind tinkering with) Place a reference mark on the turntable. Next, take a video of the screen as seen through the rotating mirror. Analyze the video frame by frame and select the frame where the reference mark on the turntable is in the center of the frame. Now, do the same thing with other projectors and compare.

Edit: Rolling shutter may be an issue, so you would probably want to use a camera that does not use a rolling shutter.

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post #33 of 950 Old 02-13-2019, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalAV View Post
Put a picture like this up on screen, keep your head static, then move your eyes to look at different areas of your screen. See if you notice any RGB rainbow trails in the picture.

I had a Sharp z12k back in the day and only noticed RBE rarely, almost never really. I don't know what happened with its successor, the z20k, but it was RBE city. I even tried 2 different units. It killed DLP for me, but I have hope for the 970/990.



IMO, that is not *true* rainbow effect. If you have to start shaking your head or darting your eyes around a static pattern to see it then that's not really RBE IMO, because you are artificially trying to invoke it.

I consider RBE a thing when you see it just normally watching a movie or playing a game - such as a large white spotlight rapidly moving across a black background. This could naturally cause rainbow effect especially on slower color wheels as the eye naturally tracks the spotlight and sees the color breakup. The game Destiny 2 actually has a movable UI element that is great for testing rainbow effect.


But, the problem is either of these methods are still subjective. Some people don't ever notice RBE, some people it bothers them tremendously - it varies for every brain . So ARROW AV could report back no rainbow effect, and then someone else could see the same projector and see it.

IMO to do it objectively best way is to actually see how fast the two are flashing colors via high speed shutter camera - though there are other contributors, the speed of sequential color is the largest objective influencer on RBE. Even if you can't measure the exact speed, you should be able to see about how much faster one is cycling than the other.

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post #34 of 950 Old 02-13-2019, 11:37 PM
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IMO, that is not *true* rainbow effect. If you have to start shaking your head or darting your eyes around a static pattern to see it then that's not really RBE IMO, because you are artificially trying to invoke it.

I consider RBE a thing when you see it just normally watching a movie or playing a game - such as a large white spotlight rapidly moving across a black background. This could naturally cause rainbow effect especially on slower color wheels as the eye naturally tracks the spotlight and sees the color breakup. The game Destiny 2 actually has a movable UI element that is great for testing rainbow effect.


But, the problem is either of these methods are still subjective. Some people don't ever notice RBE, some people it bothers them tremendously - it varies for every brain . So ARROW AV could report back no rainbow effect, and then someone else could see the same projector and see it.

IMO to do it objectively best way is to actually see how fast the two are flashing colors via high speed shutter camera - though there are other contributors, the speed of sequential color is the largest objective influencer on RBE. Even if you can't measure the exact speed, you should be able to see about how much faster one is cycling than the other.

Sure, buddy. I still would like to know the results.

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post #35 of 950 Old 02-14-2019, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DigitalAV View Post

I had a Sharp z12k back in the day and only noticed RBE rarely, almost never really. I don't know what happened with its successor, the z20k, but it was RBE city. I even tried 2 different units. It killed DLP for me, but I have hope for the 970/990.
Was it a lot brighter?

I don't think you can really do a test for RBE because its visibility varies from individual to individual. It has been said that it's down to an individuals flicker visibility threshold, so you need to be testing the people, not the projector.

Testing projectors may find differences but I've only ever seen one rainbow that was in a scene like the image above when the camera moved, but other than that, none. So there's a good chance I won't see them even on the projector that when tested is said to be the most likely to produce rainbows.
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post #36 of 950 Old 02-14-2019, 06:24 AM
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Was it a lot brighter?

I don't think you can really do a test for RBE because its visibility varies from individual to individual. It has been said that it's down to an individuals flicker visibility threshold, so you need to be testing the people, not the projector.

Testing projectors may find differences but I've only ever seen one rainbow that was in a scene like the image above when the camera moved, but other than that, none. So there's a good chance I won't see them even on the projector that when tested is said to be the most likely to produce rainbows.
Nope, same brightness.

I would still like to know the results.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Was it a lot brighter?

I don't think you can really do a test for RBE because its visibility varies from individual to individual. It has been said that it's down to an individuals flicker visibility threshold, so you need to be testing the people, not the projector.

Testing projectors may find differences but I've only ever seen one rainbow that was in a scene like the image above when the camera moved, but other than that, none. So there's a good chance I won't see them even on the projector that when tested is said to be the most likely to produce rainbows.
You *can* test the projector's sequential color speed, though - if you dont have a DSLR, even some cell phones have camera apps that allow for the fast shutter speed you need to see the sequential color breakdown. Since sequential color speed is the largest contributor to rainbow effect, you could infer by the results of that test which projector would be more likely to cause RBE, if output is not similar.
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post #38 of 950 Old 02-14-2019, 07:54 AM
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Yes I know you can check that, but it doesn't necessarily tell you if people will see it. I guess it may tell those they do see RBE to some degree how visible it may or may not be though.

My old Davis DLS8 could be made to run at different speeds by sending it different frequencies - 50hz for PAL stuff and 72hz for NTSC for example, but I never saw rainbows on it. I can't remember the colour wheel speeds but it wasn't very fast compared to later models IIRC

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post #39 of 950 Old 02-14-2019, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalAV View Post
Put a picture like this up on screen, keep your head static, then move your eyes to look at different areas of your screen. See if you notice any RGB rainbow trails in the picture.

I had a Sharp z12k back in the day and only noticed RBE rarely, almost never really. I don't know what happened with its successor, the z20k, but it was RBE city. I even tried 2 different units. It killed DLP for me, but I have hope for the 970/990.



IMO, that is not *true* rainbow effect. If you have to start shaking your head or darting your eyes around a static pattern to see it then that's not really RBE IMO, because you are artificially trying to invoke it.

I consider RBE a thing when you see it just normally watching a movie or playing a game - such as a large white spotlight rapidly moving across a black background. This could naturally cause rainbow effect especially on slower color wheels as the eye naturally tracks the spotlight and sees the color breakup. The game Destiny 2 actually has a movable UI element that is great for testing rainbow effect.


But, the problem is either of these methods are still subjective. Some people don't ever notice RBE, some people it bothers them tremendously - it varies for every brain [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]. So ARROW AV could report back no rainbow effect, and then someone else could see the same projector and see it.


My first refurbished Ht9050 ha no rainbow when I moved my eyes or head but had a grainy picture, my replacement Ht9050 had rbe every time I moved my eyes.. My new ht9060 has none that I noticed.
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post #40 of 950 Old 02-14-2019, 01:19 PM
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My first refurbished Ht9050 ha no rainbow when I moved my eyes or head but had a grainy picture, my replacement Ht9050 had rbe every time I moved my eyes.. My new ht9060 has none that I noticed.
Yeah there were a couple of different ht9050 firmwares and the earlier ones did not have fast led cycling. Ht9060 has fast cycling from the start which is good.
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post #41 of 950 Old 02-16-2019, 02:03 PM
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Has there been any indication when Arrow is beginning the review here?
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post #42 of 950 Old 02-17-2019, 03:05 PM
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The BENQ HT9060 & LK990 In-Depth Reviews & Comparison Thread

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Originally Posted by Lynkage View Post
@ARROW-AV @Dave Harper


Thanks for this thread!! I am really hoping for the 990 to perform decent because I will have a 200"+ screen in my new theater and really would like to use the high lumen output of this unit. It will not be a "Bat Cave" if you will, but it will be pretty much light controlled with blackout shades on the windows. It is a pretty good sized room with a depth of approximately 30' from the screen (and anywhere in between) to mount the projector.

I currently have a JVC RS500 in my theater now (signature below) but I do not think I can see all that it is capable of just for the plain fact I do not see well in the first place. Bright projectors with lots of color is really where it's at for me. I cant see to much difference from the JVC to the Epson 3010 I used to have however I am sure that there is quite a bit if I were to show them side by side. The very dark scenes for me just make it even harder to see what is happening so the JVC's and Sony's are just not for me, and besides, I'm not willing to spend 20K+ on a projector. (I could buy a gently used 2014 Mercedes e63 AMG S 4Matic starting for that kind of money, AND get more use out of it! Or a fair amount towards the S63! )

I am open to suggestions from folks who can provide some real world options for me. I was presented with a dual JVC option but I just do not want to deal with that many moving parts just to get a picture on my screen. We watch about 50/50 2.40:1 and 16:9 content and I am willing to look at an A-lens to go with this setup if it is feasible. So please chime in if anyone has options they think would work in my situation.

Thanks

You’re very welcome!

Yeah based on what you’re describing, I do believe the BenQ LK970/990 with an anamorphic lens could be just the ticket to get high brightness with great shadow details to allow you to see as much as you possibly can given your unfortunate sight abilities.

Your cost could be about 40% of the $20K budget you quoted if you look for a refurb LK970 with a second hand anamorphic lens like the ISCO III or Panamorph Paladin. Shoot me a PM if you need assistance.
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post #43 of 950 Old 02-19-2019, 03:40 PM
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Looks like Secrets is gonna give the HT9060 a good review, with especially high praise for BenQ's HDR PRO processing:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/news/pro...ector-preview/
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Looks like Secrets is gonna give the HT9060 a good review, with especially high praise for BenQ's HDR PRO processing:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/news/pro...ector-preview/
Chris ebirle reviewed the 9050 and really liked it. Kris Deering reviewed it and hated it so we will see if history repeats itself, contrast isn’t gonna change that much, I’m kinda shocked that Benq is actually sending him another review unit. We will see though...
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Chris ebirle reviewed the 9050 and really liked it. Kris Deering reviewed it and hated it so we will see if history repeats itself, contrast isn’t gonna change that much, I’m kinda shocked that Benq is actually sending him another review unit. We will see though...
Hey if it gets bad reviews just means I'll be able to get it on ultra-discount in 6 months

From everything I've heard so far from owners etc, it seems the HT9060 excels at HDR & 3D content.... SDR not as much. But I already have a good solid state SDR projector, so worse comes to worse could be a HDR/3D supplement if it gets cheap enough.
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Hey if it gets bad reviews just means I'll be able to get it on ultra-discount in 6 months

From everything I've heard so far from owners etc, it seems the HT9060 excels at HDR & 3D content.... SDR not as much. But I already have a good solid state SDR projector, so worse comes to worse could be a HDR/3D supplement if it gets cheap enough.
Not sure if you remember but I bought a refurb 9050 a few months back had it for about a month, throws a beautiful picture, very nice projector my big beef was with TV material processing was not very good (sports). And I really wanted 3-D. Benq customer service is top notch!

A while back I pre-ordered then can nx5, and if that doesn’t cut it for me I may migrate to the LK 990. Laser is a beautiful thing along with that magnificent lens !!
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post #47 of 950 Old 02-20-2019, 05:42 AM
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I want to come back to Benq. Fondly remember our Benq PE8720 from back in the day...It had powered lens controls.
Benq, please add powered lens controls and lens memory to a HT PJ. Please...
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post #48 of 950 Old 02-20-2019, 03:11 PM
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I want to come back to Benq. Fondly remember our Benq PE8720 from back in the day...It had powered lens controls.
Benq, please add powered lens controls and lens memory to a HT PJ. Please...
Digital Projection E-Vision 4K UHD HC has powered lens controls and lens memory:
https://www.digitalprojection.com/digital-products/projector-spec-u.php?id=862
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post #49 of 950 Old 02-20-2019, 09:36 PM
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The BENQ HT9060 & LK990 In-Depth Reviews & Comparison Thread

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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Digital Projection E-Vision 4K UHD HC has powered lens controls and lens memory:

https://www.digitalprojection.com/di...c-u.php?id=862

Yeah, and if it’s anything like Kris said it was or its “mother chassis” Vivitek I had here, it’s still a POS!
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Yeah, and if it’s anything like Kris said it was or its “mother chassis” Vivitek I had here, it’s still a POS!
I don't think I've seen anyone review the HC model. Out of curiousity what is so bad in the high brightness model that a contrast optimised lightpath and proper calibration can't fix? I'm not sure anyone mentioned exactly what the issue was.
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post #51 of 950 Old 02-21-2019, 05:34 AM
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Digital Projection E-Vision 4K UHD HC has powered lens controls and lens memory:
https://www.digitalprojection.com/di...c-u.php?id=862
Thanks for the "heads up". Can you point to more info on it?
FWIW, I have more confidence in Benq to offer a "finished" product.
It is sort of surprising that the "major" DLP makers have not included lens memory. Our Sharp Z30K had it 7 years ago. Like I said, "how hard can it be?"
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Thanks for the "heads up". Can you point to more info on it?
FWIW, I have more confidence in Benq to offer a "finished" product.
It is sort of surprising that the "major" DLP makers have not included lens memory. Our Sharp Z30K had it 7 years ago. Like I said, "how hard can it be?"
That spec sheet is the "more info." The HC variant's availability is pretty new

Apparently DPI tweaked the lightpath and lens of their 7500 lumen model to increase contrast and came up with this 4700 lumen high contrast version. A couple of people saw the original 7500 high brightness version and didn't like it but as far as I know no one around these parts has seen or reviewed the newer high contrast revision with the modified internal lightpath and modified lens. Also don't know what the street price is like - best inquire with a DPI dealer, maybe you could get a demo.

It's not hard to include powered lens, it's just expensive. Especially when the projector weighs 50lbs to ship back and forth when repairing if it breaks.

BenQ is all about bang for buck and costs built into powered lens motor doesn't fit this well. Plus for those who need it for scope screen, a permanently mounted panamorph paladin is arguably a better solution for DLP - so for most willing to spend more getting the anamorphic lens is a better solution anyway. The cross section who need powered lens for something other than scope screen is pretty small

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There were enough complaints about JVC's antiquated method for firmware updates. I hate to think, going to a projector that has to be sent in for updates. It would be one thing if there were no issues out of the box, but that has not been my experience with BenQ, nor any other projector manufacturer for that matter.
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post #54 of 950 Old 02-21-2019, 07:15 AM
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There were enough complaints about JVC's antiquated method for firmware updates. I hate to think, going to a projector that has to be sent in for updates. It would be one thing if there were no issues out of the box, but that has not been my experience with BenQ, nor any other projector manufacturer for that matter.
Would be nice, though until TI makes it a standard part of the chipset software package only mega companies like LG have enough money to program custom online/usb firmware update interfaces. Generally not much of an issue though as benq projectors usually only have one major firmware upgrade in their lifetimes anyways at most (with exceptions like the w7000) and the shipping costs will usually be covered for those cases.

Of course, online/usb firmware upgrades won't help in any way whatsoever the shipping costs for benq of a 40-50lb projector to repair a broken lens motor as being discussed above, and likely a part of why benq doesn't implement a lens motor (in addition to the hardware and development costs).

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Quote:
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Would be nice, though until TI makes it a standard part of the chipset software package only mega companies like LG have enough money to program custom online/usb firmware update interfaces. Generally not much of an issue though as benq projectors usually only have one major firmware upgrade in their lifetimes anyways at most (with exceptions like the w7000) and the shipping costs will usually be covered for those cases.

Of course, online/usb firmware upgrades won't help in any way whatsoever the shipping costs for benq of a 40-50lb projector to repair a broken lens motor as being discussed above, and likely a part of why benq doesn't implement a lens motor (in addition to the hardware and development costs).
Tell that to the dealers that sold W6000's. Those projectors got shipped to customers, back to the dealer, back to BenQ for update, back to dealer and then back to the customer. Only to discover BenQ fixed one item, but broke 1:1 pixel mapping, so the whole shipping procedure had to be repeated all over again. Optoma may be worse. Look at how many firmware updates the UHZ65 has had. Way over a dozen and also has to go back to manufacturer for any update.
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Tell that to the dealers that sold W6000's. Those projectors got shipped to customers, back to the dealer, back to BenQ for update, back to dealer and then back to the customer. Only to discover BenQ fixed one item, but broke 1:1 pixel mapping, so the whole shipping procedure had to be repeated all over again. Optoma may be worse. Look at how many firmware updates the UHZ65 has had. Way over a dozen and also has to go back to manufacturer for any update.
It is pretty bewildering to me that you can not firmware update something this expensive in 2019 locally. Even having to pull out an old serial cable to do it would be preferable. Absolutely bonkers.
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post #57 of 950 Old 02-21-2019, 08:19 AM
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The BENQ HT9060 & LK990 In-Depth Reviews & Comparison Thread

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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
I don't think I've seen anyone review the HC model. Out of curiousity what is so bad in the high brightness model that a contrast optimised lightpath and proper calibration can't fix? I'm not sure anyone mentioned exactly what the issue was.
Only thing from memory I can think of to describe it is processing. It just looked really harsh and so many things in the image just looked wrong.


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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
There were enough complaints about JVC's antiquated method for firmware updates. I hate to think, going to a projector that has to be sent in for updates. It would be one thing if there were no issues out of the box, but that has not been my experience with BenQ, nor any other projector manufacturer for that matter.

Luckily the LK970 seems to be solid out of the box. There was one minor FW update but I was told it’s for a very small issue that 99.9% of people won’t need or even notice. Maybe they’re a little better on the commercial side?


Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
It is pretty bewildering to me that you can not firmware update something this expensive in 2019 locally. Even having to pull out an old serial cable to do it would be preferable. Absolutely bonkers.

Totally agree!
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post #58 of 950 Old 02-21-2019, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Maybe they’re a little better on the commercial side?
They are just as good on the consumer side, except when they are rush launching a product to be one of the first in their class with a new technology.

Such as:

W7000 (consumer DLP 3D)
HT8050/HT9050 (consumer DLP 4K)
HT2550 (0.47" affordable 4K)

It's those first to market launches that sometimes have issues, but the same goes for most projectors first to market with new tech.

When the LK970 came out its platform had already been out for a long time under another brand and it was nowhere near first to market, so had time to mature the FW.

Last edited by Ruined; 02-21-2019 at 09:35 AM.
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post #59 of 950 Old 02-21-2019, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
@bobof any suggestions as to how one might go about objectively measuring the severity/magnitude of the RAINBOW EFFECT with respect to relevant projectors?

Sorry, I just saw this. Lost track of these after the thread split.

I'd have thought the best way would be using a precise flicker measurement device of some sort. Display a single primary colour and work out how many times per second the colour comes and goes and how long it is displayed for. Correlate this data with real world observation of prevalence of RBE, ideally using the same observer, then you could test whether the correlation of other devices seems to hold true with observed performance.

Klein K10 isn't fast enough I think - some DLP devices appear to refresh at 240Hz.

Alternative might be an ultra-high frame rate camera (probably >1000fps). That's where I'd start, anyway.
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post #60 of 950 Old 02-21-2019, 02:25 PM
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I'm wondering if Arrow took his Lamborghini on a long vacation drive or something, ??? He hasn't updated here in a while.
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